Ok I'll look into testing it with some Syphon Life's and see how that goes. Possibly a Trading Post to see how that could work too. The problem would be dredging it, so lets start Syphon Life.
An alternative to trading post for repeatable life gain would be bow of nylea. It comes a turn earlier and unlike post most abilities are useful.
Taking down flyers seems good vs affinity, clique, etc. The deathtouch attacks is nice with token swarms. The graveyard shuffling is nice if you expect surgical extraction. You can also add back pyros, assaults, decays, etc to your library.
An alternative to trading post for repeatable life gain would be bow of nylea. It comes a turn earlier and unlike post most abilities are useful.
Taking down flyers seems good vs affinity, clique, etc. The deathtouch attacks is nice with token swarms. The graveyard shuffling is nice if you expect surgical extraction. You can also add back pyros, assaults, decays, etc to your library.
Wow I think you're onto something here. Do you think that it would work better in a sideboard strategy where you remove an Assualt or Lily from your deck for game two? Getting the triple red for Assualt, double black for Lily, and then double green for Bow seems kinda fishy. It would be really stretching the manabase thin unless only two were in the deck at the same time, or we put in another green filter land (Right now I'm running 4x BR, 1x GR so I could add 1x BG and drop a Graven Cairns). Would it work better in a token shell with Lingering Souls and Young Pyromancer or if we are refueling our deck could just the Pyomancers be enough? I think because the tokens only get Deathouch while attacking it takes some value away, but going into a fourth colour would really be pushing the deck (Unless you always try for casting the souls from the yard).
I play the token shell with souls + pyro, the 4th color isn't that much of a stretch, i play 2 white producing lands, a godless shrine that i can search for with my 6 fetches and a horizon canopy that is very good for the cycling ability. I don't always need the white though, so 8 pseudo white sources has worked fine. Plus we can get extra fixing with loam by using fetches multiple times. I agree however that double green is an issue. I'll try bow from the board and see how it goes, it seems worth the risk.
Graveyard hate seems to hose this deck, the OP didn't really say how this deck plays around it. Do you just try and force the discard and kill them before they get another, or am I missing something?
Usually grave hate is taken into account and any deck that runs grave hate (rest in peace, leyline of the void, etc) against us is usually where we board in our anti hate cards, like abrupt decay, ray of revelation, engineered explosives, etc.
Grave hate is annoying but not unbeatable. MyKatDied mentioned a few cards that help. In my version engineered explosives also help deal with leyline of sanctity/leyline of the void since i play 4 colors. I just side them in whenever my opponent plays white.
Late game hate is the worst for us because a rest in peace when we have a fat grave and our engine running can spell defeat. Those are the times when you have to hope to get the pyromancer/souls draw and have a threatening board before hate topdecks.
I play the token shell with souls + pyro, the 4th color isn't that much of a stretch, i play 2 white producing lands, a godless shrine that i can search for with my 6 fetches and a horizon canopy that is very good for the cycling ability. I don't always need the white though, so 8 pseudo white sources has worked fine. Plus we can get extra fixing with loam by using fetches multiple times. I agree however that double green is an issue. I'll try bow from the board and see how it goes, it seems worth the risk.
Ok so I was testing the bow out and it preformed as good as I was hoping, the only thing is that it was very good in more obscure matchups and less so in the more common ones. It hoses BW Tokens and Burn, and put a pretty big roadblock in Affinity when they're not going for the infect kill. I assume if there is a Mill deck floating around it would help out there too. It also kills any pestermite kill that Twin is going for as long as you don't get the bow tapped down. I think it preformed really well because you have options vs almost every deck in the format with it. I'll definitely look into finding a permanent 2 spots in my sideboard for it.
Nice. I haven't had the chance to test it yet because i either didn't draw it or had matchups were it wasn't needed.
Just an idea i had, i saw an interesting orzhov deck pop up online that plays 4 pack rat! Anyone think it might be a good additional win con, maybe a one or two of? I feel like we can abuse the rat a lot more than the orzhov deck, with loam we can get to a point were with 5 mana we loam and activate rat, then on the following turn double activate rat. Good or too cute?
It's probably too cute for Modern. It has the time in standard to escalate out of control in the face of expensive removal spells. The removal is just too cheap and efficient to justify the mana and card investment. You'd have to wait until you had 5 mana to ensure you get 2 rats out of it and stand a chance of it actually going off.
Bow sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a try next week. There's a fair amount of Burn and Affinity showing up at my store, so some extra hate wouldn't be bad.
Just an idea i had, i saw an interesting orzhov deck pop up online that plays 4 pack rat! Anyone think it might be a good additional win con, maybe a one or two of? I feel like we can abuse the rat a lot more than the orzhov deck, with loam we can get to a point were with 5 mana we loam and activate rat, then on the following turn double activate rat. Good or too cute?
Yeah for the rat to work you would need to have some way to quickly get it out of Bolt range. There is a plethora of things that will kill it in modern, like Bolt, Lightning Helix, Mealstrom Pulse, Path to Exile, Abrupt decay, etc... I think going 1-for-1 ever time and only putting 1/1 tokens onto the battlefield is not where we want to be. At least with Young Promancer we get value in a way because we cast a spell, get and effect and then a 1/1 token. The rat looses us a card which is card disadvantage, then you get your 1/1 or 2/2 assuming it isn't killed.
I just think that it is too easy to deal with to be usable.
Then there is also the r/g tron match up where they run clasm which is horrible for rat. Especially after pitching cards to it. The beauty of assault is that we're using to pitched cards with guaranteed damage.
I have been playing some games as of late (now with Pyromancers) and came to some conclusions:
I'm a huge fan of Chalice of the void in the board against many decks with low mana curves. A chalice on 1 on the play on turn 2 can be devastating for some decks and buys a lot of turn to assemble the kill. It won't be enough by itself on the draw, though, so a sweeper against aggro is still mandatory.
With the overall game plan I don't fear playing against combo decks like Storm or Infect. There's enough discard and sacrifice to keep them on their knees. I haven't played against Melira Pod to make a conclusion, but it does sound bad game 1.
Originally, my plan against control was to board in more targeted discard to combat their permission and hate spells preemptively: it was a disaster I now I don't believe it is possible to try to play centered in the Loam engine around the hate successfully: if they want to hose the graveyard, they will: keep Abrupt Decay and they may start with a Leyline on play: catch their Surgical Extraction or Rakdos Charm with discard and they will proceed to play Snapcaster Mage, etc. I rather bring in something half transformative and make their answers more narrow. I also thought on Pack Rat, but I dislike that they can just pack Wrath or Damnation and call it a day, so I suddenly though about Bitterblossom and said: why not? Nothing sounds better than dropping a turn two Blossom against a deck packed with graveyard with utter indifference. Trying to zap each token with a removal spell looks like a losing proposition and even if they sweep, now they are tapped out and still facing upcoming Faeries.
While Kitchen Finks haven't been that good, coupled with Blossom they start looking good against control too.
My sideboeard is shaping up to be something like this:
4 Bitterblossom
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Chalice of the Void.
3 Anger of the Gods.
Finks is nice if they side out their path to exiles but it remains vulnerable to graveyard hate, so that's why i'm opting for huntmaster. You can also side those vs burn as a (somewhat) repeatable life gain source. Forcing the control player to play spells during his turn seems reasonnable. Also our discard help getting to a point were the opponent won't always have spells to cast on their turn.
Purphoros seems like a nice alternate win con that bypasses nearly every hate cards vs loam, from needle to gy hate to enchantment hate. He is very hard to remove and you can deal lots of damage with pyro and souls. It even bypasses leyline of sanctity! The pump ability can be relevant too and he does a lot of work with huntmaster. Lastly, you can get his devotion online easily with seismic assault. All you need is an assault + pyromancer/huntmaster or 2 assaults. If they sided out paths they might have trouble dealing with an active purphoros. I wouldn't play them in versions that don't include pyro + souls though.
I'd likely side in those 4 cards to remplace useless abrupt decays vs control decks.
Alright so i got the chance to test huntmaster of the fells, and the time i drew them they were a beating! It was vs w/g death and taxes. They single handedly won me game 2, i was able to flip them like 4 times minimum. Raven's crime makes it difficult for the opponent to always cast a spell on their turn, eventually they draw a land and huntmaster flips. You can also activate a manland and flip huntmaster on your turn. Playing 2 spells to flip it again turned out pretty easy. I haven't had the chance to draw them in other matchups though.
Purphoros, god of the forge i'm less sure of. If you don't draw the pyro-souls draw they don't do much. I think i'll leave them out for now.
Hunt master is something that seems really sweet. I will definitely test them as well out of the board. As for the god, I think as a 1 of main deck he shouldn't be too bad. But I agree he's pretty useless without all the token engines in place
1) In any creature based deck it will grab either the creature that we are looking for (Goyf/Bob/Young Pyro/Countryside Crusher/etc...) and it will also grab an Assualt.
2) I find that sometimes I never can draw an Assualt when I really need to, and then end up milling them because of Life from the Loam. This way we get to see more cards of our deck, where Faithless Lootings gives us 2, LftL gives us 3, and this gives us 5.
3) It fills the yard with gas for us. Who cares if you can't put the Lands and Sorceries that you reveal into your hand, they will all come back through LftL and Retrace.
I have been messing around with a couple for some days now and it really feels as though the deck is more consistent. Before I would find myself loosing when I didn't have an Assualt, or it would get milled and I was completely screwed. This filled the yard so that we always had answers for things and were able to really stabilize faster. The downside is that I tested it as a 4 of, and it takes 4 slots of the deck. I think that taking out any removal for it is risky, at least until I can test it some more.
Commune with the gods seems super good in the traditional version with goyf/bob/crusher. In the pyromancer versions i don't think so, having only 7 target seems like i might miss often. I wouldn't play them instead of lootings though, but in addition to them. The flashback on looting is super good, flashbacking dredged lootings is essential.
Commune with the gods seems super good in the traditional version with goyf/bob/crusher. In the pyromancer versions i don't think so, having only 7 target seems like i might miss often. I wouldn't play them instead of lootings though, but in addition to them. The flashback on looting is super good, flashbacking dredged lootings is essential.
Do you think that the downside of not hitting anything would really hurt you at all? I mean you still get a token with a Pyromancer out, and all you could do is fill your yard with 4-5 cards that can be reused? Right now I'm playing with Pyromancers, but I also had Lily's in which as been discussed here before. I'll look into dropping those and putting in the Communes to see how they work. I can also try out the Bob/Goyf version to see if it makes a better fit there.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Taking down flyers seems good vs affinity, clique, etc. The deathtouch attacks is nice with token swarms. The graveyard shuffling is nice if you expect surgical extraction. You can also add back pyros, assaults, decays, etc to your library.
Wow I think you're onto something here. Do you think that it would work better in a sideboard strategy where you remove an Assualt or Lily from your deck for game two? Getting the triple red for Assualt, double black for Lily, and then double green for Bow seems kinda fishy. It would be really stretching the manabase thin unless only two were in the deck at the same time, or we put in another green filter land (Right now I'm running 4x BR, 1x GR so I could add 1x BG and drop a Graven Cairns). Would it work better in a token shell with Lingering Souls and Young Pyromancer or if we are refueling our deck could just the Pyomancers be enough? I think because the tokens only get Deathouch while attacking it takes some value away, but going into a fourth colour would really be pushing the deck (Unless you always try for casting the souls from the yard).
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Horizon canopy helps vs surgical extraction targeting loam. You can also force the opponent to use relic of progenitus/tormod's crypt/nihil spellbomb/etc when you want by decaying it early. Most players will rightfully wait before exiling your grave so you can try and get a little value from it.
Late game hate is the worst for us because a rest in peace when we have a fat grave and our engine running can spell defeat. Those are the times when you have to hope to get the pyromancer/souls draw and have a threatening board before hate topdecks.
Ok so I was testing the bow out and it preformed as good as I was hoping, the only thing is that it was very good in more obscure matchups and less so in the more common ones. It hoses BW Tokens and Burn, and put a pretty big roadblock in Affinity when they're not going for the infect kill. I assume if there is a Mill deck floating around it would help out there too. It also kills any pestermite kill that Twin is going for as long as you don't get the bow tapped down. I think it preformed really well because you have options vs almost every deck in the format with it. I'll definitely look into finding a permanent 2 spots in my sideboard for it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Just an idea i had, i saw an interesting orzhov deck pop up online that plays 4 pack rat! Anyone think it might be a good additional win con, maybe a one or two of? I feel like we can abuse the rat a lot more than the orzhov deck, with loam we can get to a point were with 5 mana we loam and activate rat, then on the following turn double activate rat. Good or too cute?
Bow sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a try next week. There's a fair amount of Burn and Affinity showing up at my store, so some extra hate wouldn't be bad.
Yeah for the rat to work you would need to have some way to quickly get it out of Bolt range. There is a plethora of things that will kill it in modern, like Bolt, Lightning Helix, Mealstrom Pulse, Path to Exile, Abrupt decay, etc... I think going 1-for-1 ever time and only putting 1/1 tokens onto the battlefield is not where we want to be. At least with Young Promancer we get value in a way because we cast a spell, get and effect and then a 1/1 token. The rat looses us a card which is card disadvantage, then you get your 1/1 or 2/2 assuming it isn't killed.
I just think that it is too easy to deal with to be usable.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
My sideboeard is shaping up to be something like this:
4 Bitterblossom
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Chalice of the Void.
3 Anger of the Gods.
Has anyone tested Bitterblossom in the SB?
Finks is nice if they side out their path to exiles but it remains vulnerable to graveyard hate, so that's why i'm opting for huntmaster. You can also side those vs burn as a (somewhat) repeatable life gain source. Forcing the control player to play spells during his turn seems reasonnable. Also our discard help getting to a point were the opponent won't always have spells to cast on their turn.
Purphoros seems like a nice alternate win con that bypasses nearly every hate cards vs loam, from needle to gy hate to enchantment hate. He is very hard to remove and you can deal lots of damage with pyro and souls. It even bypasses leyline of sanctity! The pump ability can be relevant too and he does a lot of work with huntmaster. Lastly, you can get his devotion online easily with seismic assault. All you need is an assault + pyromancer/huntmaster or 2 assaults. If they sided out paths they might have trouble dealing with an active purphoros. I wouldn't play them in versions that don't include pyro + souls though.
I'd likely side in those 4 cards to remplace useless abrupt decays vs control decks.
Purphoros, god of the forge i'm less sure of. If you don't draw the pyro-souls draw they don't do much. I think i'll leave them out for now.
1) In any creature based deck it will grab either the creature that we are looking for (Goyf/Bob/Young Pyro/Countryside Crusher/etc...) and it will also grab an Assualt.
2) I find that sometimes I never can draw an Assualt when I really need to, and then end up milling them because of Life from the Loam. This way we get to see more cards of our deck, where Faithless Lootings gives us 2, LftL gives us 3, and this gives us 5.
3) It fills the yard with gas for us. Who cares if you can't put the Lands and Sorceries that you reveal into your hand, they will all come back through LftL and Retrace.
I have been messing around with a couple for some days now and it really feels as though the deck is more consistent. Before I would find myself loosing when I didn't have an Assualt, or it would get milled and I was completely screwed. This filled the yard so that we always had answers for things and were able to really stabilize faster. The downside is that I tested it as a 4 of, and it takes 4 slots of the deck. I think that taking out any removal for it is risky, at least until I can test it some more.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Do you think that the downside of not hitting anything would really hurt you at all? I mean you still get a token with a Pyromancer out, and all you could do is fill your yard with 4-5 cards that can be reused? Right now I'm playing with Pyromancers, but I also had Lily's in which as been discussed here before. I'll look into dropping those and putting in the Communes to see how they work. I can also try out the Bob/Goyf version to see if it makes a better fit there.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge