After looking through my matchup notes, I've been noticing a trend with these RG lists. I am currently at around a 90% win pct when on the play and at around a 40% win pct on the draw with the deck, showcasing a major flaw. This deck has historically been really good on the play because your turn 3 sometimes do nothing enchantment can get active your turn 4 to take care of your opponent's threats. On the draw, a turn 3 Seismic Assault can just be too slow vs a large Tarmogoyf or a million recursive creatures against dredge that has already dealt you a bunch of damage from Creeping Chill.
In other colors, this flaw is mitigated because of really good removal / hand disruption and card advantage like Dark Confidant. In RG, a turn 2 Commune with the Gods turn 3 Seismic Assault on the draw is just too slow.
The question here is as follows; how do we increase our win pct on the draw?
Mana dorks would also let us play more fair out of the sideboard, playing cards like Kitchen Finks as a hard to kill, life gaining threat, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Huntmaster of the Fells. Board out some of the graveyard interactions and transform into GR Midrange.
Another option is to run a sweeper. This is a classic example of a way to make midrange better on the draw. However, it is usually best when the sweeper is very effective in the metagame, and Anger of the Gods / Pyroclasm miss a lot of the intended targets right now, namely Thing in the Ice, Tarmogoyf, and big Death's Shadows. In the current metagame, I don't think this will be very effective.
Finally, we could try to do as best as we can game 1, and maximize our options post-board. In this vein we can play more good sideboard cards pre-board so we slim down slots. This is going to sound contradictory, but we could maindeck sweepers, all the scoozes, and even something like Engineered Explosives or Beast Within maindeck to give us more slots in the sideboard for silver bullets. This would require the deck to be very fine tuned, so it'll take me a bit to find a correct list.
This is fine tuning is what I have been working on at my locals for the past few weeks, and I will post the list later today when I have time. I strongly believe this is the best deck in the metagame on the play, but on the draw it definitely leaves something to be desired.
If anyone has any other ideas to increase the win pct on the draw, please share them. It is the most critical flaw in the archetype right now, and this discourse could really improve the deck's results.
Neither Cavern nor Ritual are out of the discussion.
Cavern is good on the draw, but on the play it's another land that doesn't tap for R for Seismic Assault. Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide could both be included easily, I just have liked mana dorks better in the past since they do more on their own.
Ritual could be really good if we wanted to play more red 3 drop threats like Goblin Rabblemaster or Sin Prodder. Prodder is okay in RG especially because of Countryside Crusher which can get rid of lands to make sure you always flip a spell. There are probably better 3 drop red things (Goblin Chainwhirler and Boros Reckoner come to mind as I continue writing) we could hit too, it just makes the deck more all in than it would be with just dorks.
The obvious thing about the deck is the nonbo with Anger of the Gods and Birds of Paradise, but if we need turn 2 anger, I'm willing to use my birds as a Desperate Ritual to get there. It's the fallacy many players skip over that is solved like this: if our opponents have a lot of stuff we want / have to kill on the board, we cast anger. If not, we don't.
I also included 2 Blood Moon in SB with 2 basic forests. I'm not sure if that's the correct choice, but with a bunch of Fire-Lit Thicket to filter maindeck I don't think it would hurt us. This list is "tested," as in, this is not the exact list that I have been playing at fnm, but is very similar.
Instead of Birds of Paradise run Utopia Sprawl fixes the issue of getting the Dork Bolted on turn 1. Demands a rework of the mana base towards more Stomping Grounds to support it, but that will reap an overall better benefit than something like Bird.
Greetings,
Kathal
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either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Good idea. I didn't want to play Sprawl because it would make us fetch shock turn 1 in most cases, but it's better than getting Birds bolted.
Also, I think my argument against Gemstone Caverns was dumb in retrospect. Caverns could be lands 26-29 in place of the Birds, and would be great on the draw, only mediocre on the play. I'd likely cut a land or two for them to go down to 27 or 28 lands and then play more ways to turn lands into payoffs, maybe even with Magmatic Insight, who knows.
Here's the same list with caverns. I may test this this week, as it seems deceptively good.
Early game on the play, you really don't want Gemstone Mine in your hand, but when you are dredging, it becomes another untapped land which is surprisingly hard to do sometimes.
I prefer Field of Ruin because with a turn 1 dork I can fire it off turn 2, and it's not tempo negative like Ghost Quarter is.
I'll reconsider the 3 forests if I run into any problems. I need a high enough basic land count to pair with the 4 Field of Ruins. I wouldn't drop to less than 6 basics but could go 4 mountain, 2 forest.
I'll reconsider the 3 forests if I run into any problems. I need a high enough basic land count to pair with the 4 Field of Ruins. I wouldn't drop to less than 6 basics but could go 4 mountain, 2 forest.
Yeah, I usually run around 4 to 5 basic Mountain with 1 to 2 Forest. With more lands in the manabase, the offcolor lands matter less, but still just something to be wary of.
The amounts of me GQ myself to get the required mana to cast an Assault on Turn 3 due to tap lands, colourless lands or simply Forest is to darn high...
Btw. the biggest struggle I have found so far is, that if my Loams get exiled due to a Surgical, I can hardly win anymore. Losing the recurring removal spells is really harsh for many match-ups. Has anybody a idea, how to make the deck less Loam reliant while still being not hot garbage?
My first thought was to add some high power cards, which can act as an Loam alternative, but the ones I would want to play (looking at you Mr. Dack Fayden) are not modern legal
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So yesterday i played in a ca. 100 man tournament with RG Loam. I went 5-2 and got placed 13th.
This deck my actually be viable.
First, here’s my list I played:
Overall the deck felt really smooth, with only a few mulligans. Playing 26 Lands with a build-in flood protection in Assault and Loothing does that I think.
4 BBE’s felt great, wouldn’t miss them in the future. BBE into Countryside Crusher can be insane.
Speaking of, Countryside Crusher also felt really good, to my suprise. Drawing only action afterwards is great, while having a Creature that must be handled or chumped because he grows big unbelivable fast.
Lootings are actually not my favorite card in this deck, since I almost never want to do it on turn 1 and rather fetch for a tapped Stomping Ground and see what I’m up against or how my hand will sculpt in the next draw steps.
Also RiP is a beating and were a big factor in the two games i lost. Will definitely play more Nature’s Claims or something like Destructive Revelry.
I just thought about Cindervines, it can be cast preemptively, can be found with Commune with the Gods, is an Enchanment for Tarmogoyf and is always somewhat useful. I'm trying out 2 in the Board and 1 Nature's Claim right now.
@CrypticCommander: Many thanks for posting here regulary and keeping the Deck alive, a true believer. You were right with the second Sheltered Thicket, I almost always wanted one when i get the Loam going, will add a second. I can’t wait for the Onslaught Cycle Land reprint in Modern Horizons
In my current list I play -1 Mountain, -1 Copperline Gorge (this card is really bad in this deck)
+ 1 Sheltered Thicket, +1 Fire-Lit Thicket
Regarding Naya Loam; I was on a Naya List at the beginning, mostly for a clean answer to threats with Path to Exile and Wear//Tear and of course KotR. But at last the manabase felt really awkward, and was not worth the trade off in my opinion. RG runs much smoother.
I think Jund will have the same problems, even if I’d love to Play Confidant and Raven’s Crime.
After looking through my matchup notes, I've been noticing a trend with these RG lists. I am currently at around a 90% win pct when on the play and at around a 40% win pct on the draw with the deck, showcasing a major flaw.
While I totally agree that having the Combo on the Play is much better than being on the braw, I can't say that I think the difference is that drastic. The Deck is still a Midrange deck with the best grind engine ever in Loam.
I also don't like adding Rituals, Caverns or SSG for the price of inconsintence. When playing Birds or Utopia Sprawls, BBE becomes much weaker obviously, and i value BBEs much hgher than having the possibility of having a Turn 2 Assault.
Btw. the biggest struggle I have found so far is, that if my Loams get exiled due to a Surgical, I can hardly win anymore. Losing the recurring removal spells is really harsh for many match-ups. Has anybody a idea, how to make the deck less Loam reliant while still being not hot garbage?
To combat Surgical I thought about brining in Edge of Tomorrow, but I couldn't find any space in the side or mainboard. I think your best bet is to try and play around it with cycle lands.
Tarmogoyf and Countryside Crusher are still a real threat, especially when the Opp mulliganed for a surgical and does not have many Removal left in their hand/deck.
So yesterday i played in a ca. 100 man tournament with RG Loam. I went 5-2 and got placed 13th.
This deck my actually be viable.
First, here’s my list I played:
Overall the deck felt really smooth, with only a few mulligans. Playing 26 Lands with a build-in flood protection in Assault and Loothing does that I think.
4 BBE’s felt great, wouldn’t miss them in the future. BBE into Countryside Crusher can be insane.
Speaking of, Countryside Crusher also felt really good, to my suprise. Drawing only action afterwards is great, while having a Creature that must be handled or chumped because he grows big unbelivable fast.
Lootings are actually not my favorite card in this deck, since I almost never want to do it on turn 1 and rather fetch for a tapped Stomping Ground and see what I’m up against or how my hand will sculpt in the next draw steps.
Also RiP is a beating and were a big factor in the two games i lost. Will definitely play more Nature’s Claims or something like Destructive Revelry.
I just thought about Cindervines, it can be cast preemptively, can be found with Commune with the Gods, is an Enchanment for Tarmogoyf and is always somewhat useful. I'm trying out 2 in the Board and 1 Nature's Claim right now.
@CrypticCommander: Many thanks for posting here regulary and keeping the Deck alive, a true believer. You were right with the second Sheltered Thicket, I almost always wanted one when i get the Loam going, will add a second. I can’t wait for the Onslaught Cycle Land reprint in Modern Horizons
In my current list I play -1 Mountain, -1 Copperline Gorge (this card is really bad in this deck)
+ 1 Sheltered Thicket, +1 Fire-Lit Thicket
Regarding Naya Loam; I was on a Naya List at the beginning, mostly for a clean answer to threats with Path to Exile and Wear//Tear and of course KotR. But at last the manabase felt really awkward, and was not worth the trade off in my opinion. RG runs much smoother.
I think Jund will have the same problems, even if I’d love to Play Confidant and Raven’s Crime.
After looking through my matchup notes, I've been noticing a trend with these RG lists. I am currently at around a 90% win pct when on the play and at around a 40% win pct on the draw with the deck, showcasing a major flaw.
While I totally agree that having the Combo on the Play is much better than being on the braw, I can't say that I think the difference is that drastic. The Deck is still a Midrange deck with the best grind engine ever in Loam.
I also don't like adding Rituals, Caverns or SSG for the price of inconsintence. When playing Birds or Utopia Sprawls, BBE becomes much weaker obviously, and i value BBEs much hgher than having the possibility of having a Turn 2 Assault.
Btw. the biggest struggle I have found so far is, that if my Loams get exiled due to a Surgical, I can hardly win anymore. Losing the recurring removal spells is really harsh for many match-ups. Has anybody a idea, how to make the deck less Loam reliant while still being not hot garbage?
To combat Surgical I thought about brining in Edge of Tomorrow, but I couldn't find any space in the side or mainboard. I think your best bet is to try and play around it with cycle lands.
Tarmogoyf and Countryside Crusher are still a real threat, especially when the Opp mulliganed for a surgical and does not have many Removal left in their hand/deck.
Hey, glad you did well. I've been saying for a while this deck has the tools to compete, and I love to see the deck getting more play.
I will stand by my thought that BBE is just too slow / underwhelming in a deck that has so much value like Loam. It didn't see play much before it was banned and now shouldn't be much different imo. A turn 4 BBE into Seismic Assault or Countryside Crusher is devastating, but then you have those times where you hit Flame Jab and Conflagrate or even just a bad Loam or Looting. If we played less lootings / other noncards like Flame Jab with more threats like Tireless Tracker and Crusher, then I think it would be better. At the moment, it's just a 4 drop that comes down too late in the game vs most of the hyperaggressive meta.
If I were to play a 4 drop in the deck, I would go for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. It drastically improves the control matchup, as if it is left unanswered, it can just win the game on its own. It's also very useful with AssaultLoam online since you can just play it on an empty board and tick to the ultimate. PWs are great in loam, there are just not very many that are good on color for the deck. (Sarkhan, Fireblood comes to mind as another potential option, but just doesn't impact the board like Chandra can with her minus.)
BBE is just another straight up 2 for 1 card, while the deck already has really good card advantage. That's why in the past I've run more varied threats that are better against the field like more Scavenging Ooze, Tireless Tracker for grindfests, and Bedlam Reveler which is practically a 4 for 1.
May I ask how the Control games went? This is a MU I've been labbing for a while and I just want to see how your list played out.
So i’ve Been running a 4 color list and I haven’t had problems casting spells outside of not drawing lands. What has been everyone’s experience with more colors generally?
Part of why I ask is I’m still a big fan of Trade Routes in the deck. while it’s a do-nothing on T2, it lets you fill your hand with lands while Loam is exiled. It’s helped me a lot against decks with RIP.
4C has the tendency to deal itself a lot of extra damage because of all the mana requirements. Many Jund lists will splash white to be able to hard cast Lingering Souls, and some will even add Knight of the Reliquary as a threat. That's the most common 4C List, and it hasn't seen play since AER and Fatal Push made the Jund removal better. In any case, most of those lists play upwards of 8 fetches and 1 shock of each color.
In this meta, I have to think that's a little aggressive with Dredge and Phoenix being able to burn us out quick. Trade Routes is good at finishing the game, but before that is a little underwhelming. If the goal is to splash for Trade Routes and Trade Routes alone, then I think 4C is a bit underwhelming. TR is good late in the game when you have 6 lands on the battlefield and you can untap and return them all to your hand to deal the last 12 pts of damage. Otherwise, it is good with Loam as you can cycle the lands you get back, but at that point you are just going to value town for no real reason nor benefit, as the deck already has the best card advantage engine in modern in Life from the Loam.
Against control, Trade Routes is great, against Phoenix + Dredge, it's awkward AF. I don't really like TR for that reason.
Rest in Peace is a good card against Loam no doubt, but I have never had real problems with it. It makes some of our favorable matchups like Counters Company switch to only even post-board, but with my lists I've always been okay with it.
RiP turn 2 isn't that good against our deck post board. If you think your opponent will have RiP or other really good graveyard hate like Surgical, board out 1 Loam + the rest of your cuts and be sure to keep in enough threats like Countryside Crusher and Tireless Tracker. I usually board in Beast Within as a way to kill any interaction my opponent may have as well as any problematic permanent, and then if I expect something else I'll board in EE, Ratchet Bomb, Abrade (especially if they have creatures to kill), etc. Keep a Loam in hand so when you get rid of the RiP, you have options to rebuild. Playing around graveyard hate is kind of tedious in Loam, but it is critical to the deck's success. Most decks only play two RiP anyways, so a lot of times they will draw it late where you just have to get in the last few points of damage, in which case we are all set to win the game. This is another reason to play non-Tarmogoyf threats such as Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Huntmaster of the Fells to get value without a graveyard.
The matchup guide hasn't been updated on the primer since ever, so some of these important interactions have been lost to the sands of time. Playing around and baiting out graveyard hate is one of the things that makes this deck so cool to play postboard, and it's important to practice those lines.
I agree it's a bit dubious playing a Loam deck with Surgicals everywhere.
I used to play Bloodbraid, but as others have said its not good with mana dorks.
Playing all 8 mana dorks feels like too many at times but its nice to be able to go turn 1 dork turn 2 Seismic Assault / Crusher / Scooze with mana open to activate / Field of Ruin. I would have to reconfigure my list entirely if I were to remove them and add Bloodbraid.
Drawing multiple Seismic Assault can be awkward. Looting or Lightning Axe can fix this. I played 4 Axe the other day but that felt like too many.
How does everyone like Commune with the Gods? It feels great to grab Assault while dumping lands and Life from the Loam, but sometimes I just miss entirely or end up having a grab a mana dork and that feels quite bad.
I used to play Courser of Kruphix in here: not sure how that would fare in today's meta. Play's fairly well with Loam and Crusher.
Control matchup seems tricky. I may have to get Chandras or something to help with it.
Cindervines is interesting I'll be sure to try it out.
Is 2 Fire-lit thicket excessive? I'm only playing one right now but sometimes wish I had the second to help when I draw forest.
Does anyone play Molten Vortex as additional assaults or are they not needed?
So many thoughts. I always have the core of Loam + Assault + Crusher by aside from that there's so many options and nothing is really set in stone. I hope Horizons gives us some new goodies for this archetype.
I agree it's a bit dubious playing a Loam deck with Surgicals everywhere.
I used to play Bloodbraid, but as others have said its not good with mana dorks.
Playing all 8 mana dorks feels like too many at times but its nice to be able to go turn 1 dork turn 2 Seismic Assault / Crusher / Scooze with mana open to activate / Field of Ruin. I would have to reconfigure my list entirely if I were to remove them and add Bloodbraid.
Drawing multiple Seismic Assault can be awkward. Looting or Lightning Axe can fix this. I played 4 Axe the other day but that felt like too many.
How does everyone like Commune with the Gods? It feels great to grab Assault while dumping lands and Life from the Loam, but sometimes I just miss entirely or end up having a grab a mana dork and that feels quite bad.
I used to play Courser of Kruphix in here: not sure how that would fare in today's meta. Play's fairly well with Loam and Crusher.
Control matchup seems tricky. I may have to get Chandras or something to help with it.
Cindervines is interesting I'll be sure to try it out.
Is 2 Fire-lit thicket excessive? I'm only playing one right now but sometimes wish I had the second to help when I draw forest.
Does anyone play Molten Vortex as additional assaults or are they not needed?
So many thoughts. I always have the core of Loam + Assault + Crusher by aside from that there's so many options and nothing is really set in stone. I hope Horizons gives us some new goodies for this archetype.
The primer goes in detail for a lot of these choices, but here's a quick summary on what I've found.
Magmatic Insight is generally too narrow. You have the hands where you need all your lands in some capacity, or you need all your colors, and sometimes you cast it turn 1 expecting it to find another land, but then it doesn't, it's just a very awkward turn 1 play. It would be better if you are playing more lands, like 29+, but at that point I'd rather just cut some lands and play some more spells. Tormenting Voice and Cathartic Reunion are more sensible, but I'd still go for other options.
Lightning Axe discarding Seismic Assault is not value. It's card disadvantage. You are still discarding a "bad" card to play another, which is card disadvantage. If the card you discard wants to be discarded, then it's card advantage, but Lightning Axe shouldn't be played just because it can discard a second Seismic Assault. Multiple assaults are good in a modern metagame with Teferi and Trophy as well, so having one extra in hand isn't the worse thing. Faithless Looting and Tormenting Voice turning dead cards into good cards through drawing new, hopefully better ones are better imo. I stick by my decision to play Dismember which plays better off the top than Lightning Axe, but anywhere between 0 and 2 + 1 SB Axe would be fine imo.
Commune is good on the play, mediocre on the draw. It doesn't affect the board immediately, but it can find a threat to play the next turn in Crusher, Assault, or Goyf along with putting cards like Loam and Conflagrate into the graveyard.
Courser of Kruphix is very good in this deck. It could see play if aggro is heavy in your meta.
Control matchup is 60/40 in our favor. If we land Seismic Assault, it's 70/30. If we don't, our threats + Flame Jab to finish the game still make us favored game 1, postboard we just need to play around RiP and side in additional threats. It is also very possible to play around surgical, though it takes some skill. Btw, I have never tried Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the deck, it just seems good to me.
Cindervines is great, and also helps against storm. The sideboard card I really think needs to be in the deck is Engineered Explosives for Bogles and more noncreature removal to take out Amulets and such.
2 FL-T are good, the 1 Forest usually just gets discarded when it's awkward anyway.
Molten Vortex requires a lot more set up. The upside is being able to activate it turn two, though if you think about it, you would need 4 lands in your opening hand to discard 2 lands turn two. Since Molten Vortex incentivizes playing and discarding lands at the same time, you usually need to play upwards of 32 lands to get the full value of the enchantment. It's a weird deck that hasn't been optimized and is really hard to play for the same reason that most of the time the deck kills itself, so I don't usually include it in my lists. Burning Vengeance with Flame Jab actually has been used before and with 5 mana is 9 damage per turn with loam, so if you are looking for another discard outlet go there.
Is not a straight "play a card" like BBE nor "draw 3 when I enter" as Reveler, but with a single swing he will offer more overall benefits than either one.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Wow. RRG. It's like they built this card just for us.
This card is actually just what we need I think. It's an additional threat that does that Trade Routes thing at the end of the game. We needed another resilient threat, and we needed a backup for loam. That's here! This is a backup Seismic Assault, a bad one, but it can kill need to kill creatures and then transition to the last points of damage with its second ability late in the game. It provides inevitability against control and is good off the top. It has a big butt and can fill in that extra creature slot that nobody could fill. I think this will be a great addition to the deck.
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4 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
4 Mountain
3 Sheltered Thicket
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Rootbound Crag
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Raging Ravine
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Flame Jab
1 Molten Vortex
1 Lightning Axe
//CMC2
2 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Life from the Loam
3 Commune with the Gods
4 Seismic Assault
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
If you want to run 26 lands without any Wayfinder or 24 with two Wayfinders is up to you.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
After looking through my matchup notes, I've been noticing a trend with these RG lists. I am currently at around a 90% win pct when on the play and at around a 40% win pct on the draw with the deck, showcasing a major flaw. This deck has historically been really good on the play because your turn 3 sometimes do nothing enchantment can get active your turn 4 to take care of your opponent's threats. On the draw, a turn 3 Seismic Assault can just be too slow vs a large Tarmogoyf or a million recursive creatures against dredge that has already dealt you a bunch of damage from Creeping Chill.
In other colors, this flaw is mitigated because of really good removal / hand disruption and card advantage like Dark Confidant. In RG, a turn 2 Commune with the Gods turn 3 Seismic Assault on the draw is just too slow.
The question here is as follows; how do we increase our win pct on the draw?
One option is to play mana dorks to accelerate. 4 Birds of Paradise are the best option, which would let us cast Seismic Assault, Tireless Tracker, or Countryside Crusher turn 2 if left undealt with. Scavenging Ooze and Tarmogoyf could be run as a backup if we don't have Birds or it gets killed. (Birds + Scooze is also a really good turn 2 curve.)
Mana dorks would also let us play more fair out of the sideboard, playing cards like Kitchen Finks as a hard to kill, life gaining threat, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Huntmaster of the Fells. Board out some of the graveyard interactions and transform into GR Midrange.
Another option is to run a sweeper. This is a classic example of a way to make midrange better on the draw. However, it is usually best when the sweeper is very effective in the metagame, and Anger of the Gods / Pyroclasm miss a lot of the intended targets right now, namely Thing in the Ice, Tarmogoyf, and big Death's Shadows. In the current metagame, I don't think this will be very effective.
Finally, we could try to do as best as we can game 1, and maximize our options post-board. In this vein we can play more good sideboard cards pre-board so we slim down slots. This is going to sound contradictory, but we could maindeck sweepers, all the scoozes, and even something like Engineered Explosives or Beast Within maindeck to give us more slots in the sideboard for silver bullets. This would require the deck to be very fine tuned, so it'll take me a bit to find a correct list.
This is fine tuning is what I have been working on at my locals for the past few weeks, and I will post the list later today when I have time. I strongly believe this is the best deck in the metagame on the play, but on the draw it definitely leaves something to be desired.
If anyone has any other ideas to increase the win pct on the draw, please share them. It is the most critical flaw in the archetype right now, and this discourse could really improve the deck's results.
Cavern is good on the draw, but on the play it's another land that doesn't tap for R for Seismic Assault. Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide could both be included easily, I just have liked mana dorks better in the past since they do more on their own.
Ritual could be really good if we wanted to play more red 3 drop threats like Goblin Rabblemaster or Sin Prodder. Prodder is okay in RG especially because of Countryside Crusher which can get rid of lands to make sure you always flip a spell. There are probably better 3 drop red things (Goblin Chainwhirler and Boros Reckoner come to mind as I continue writing) we could hit too, it just makes the deck more all in than it would be with just dorks.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Jab
2 Dismember
1 Conflagrate
Two's (9)
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Life from the Loam
Three's (11)
4 Seismic Assault
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Raging Ravine
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sheltered Thicket
2 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flame Jab
2 Blood Moon
2 Damping Sphere
1 Abrade
1 Beast Within
1 Shatterstorm
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Life Goes On
I also included 2 Blood Moon in SB with 2 basic forests. I'm not sure if that's the correct choice, but with a bunch of Fire-Lit Thicket to filter maindeck I don't think it would hurt us. This list is "tested," as in, this is not the exact list that I have been playing at fnm, but is very similar.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Also, I think my argument against Gemstone Caverns was dumb in retrospect. Caverns could be lands 26-29 in place of the Birds, and would be great on the draw, only mediocre on the play. I'd likely cut a land or two for them to go down to 27 or 28 lands and then play more ways to turn lands into payoffs, maybe even with Magmatic Insight, who knows.
Here's the same list with caverns. I may test this this week, as it seems deceptively good.
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Jab
2 Dismember
1 Magmatic Insight
1 Conflagrate
Two's (9)
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Life from the Loam
Three's (11)
4 Seismic Assault
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Raging Ravine
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sheltered Thicket
2 Stomping Ground
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flame Jab
2 Blood Moon
2 Damping Sphere
1 Abrade
1 Beast Within
1 Shatterstorm
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Life Goes On
// 18 Creature
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
2 Ramunap Excavator
// 4 Enchantment
4 Seismic Assault
4 Lightning Axe
// 8 Sorcery
4 Life from the Loam
4 Commune with the Gods
// 26 Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
4 Field of Ruin
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Sheltered Thicket
Ghost Quarter has been classically better than Field of Ruin in this archetype for the same reason, and because Life from the Loam into Field of Ruin takes 5 mana while Loam GQ takes 2. You can also GQ yourself to get additional red mana when you need to cast Seismic Assault.
I prefer Field of Ruin because with a turn 1 dork I can fire it off turn 2, and it's not tempo negative like Ghost Quarter is.
I'll reconsider the 3 forests if I run into any problems. I need a high enough basic land count to pair with the 4 Field of Ruins. I wouldn't drop to less than 6 basics but could go 4 mountain, 2 forest.
Btw. the biggest struggle I have found so far is, that if my Loams get exiled due to a Surgical, I can hardly win anymore. Losing the recurring removal spells is really harsh for many match-ups. Has anybody a idea, how to make the deck less Loam reliant while still being not hot garbage?
My first thought was to add some high power cards, which can act as an Loam alternative, but the ones I would want to play (looking at you Mr. Dack Fayden) are not modern legal
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This deck my actually be viable.
First, here’s my list I played:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Seismic Assault
4 Faithless Looting
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Stomping Ground
2 Rootbound Crag
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
6 Mountain
1 Raging Ravine
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Damping Sphere
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Lightning Axe
The Match-Ups were:
2-1 Abzan Midrange
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 UW Control
2-1 Grishoalbrand
2-0 Restore Balance
1-2 Burn
2-1 Storm
Overall the deck felt really smooth, with only a few mulligans. Playing 26 Lands with a build-in flood protection in Assault and Loothing does that I think.
4 BBE’s felt great, wouldn’t miss them in the future. BBE into Countryside Crusher can be insane.
Speaking of, Countryside Crusher also felt really good, to my suprise. Drawing only action afterwards is great, while having a Creature that must be handled or chumped because he grows big unbelivable fast.
Lootings are actually not my favorite card in this deck, since I almost never want to do it on turn 1 and rather fetch for a tapped Stomping Ground and see what I’m up against or how my hand will sculpt in the next draw steps.
Also RiP is a beating and were a big factor in the two games i lost. Will definitely play more Nature’s Claims or something like Destructive Revelry.
I just thought about Cindervines, it can be cast preemptively, can be found with Commune with the Gods, is an Enchanment for Tarmogoyf and is always somewhat useful. I'm trying out 2 in the Board and 1 Nature's Claim right now.
@CrypticCommander: Many thanks for posting here regulary and keeping the Deck alive, a true believer. You were right with the second Sheltered Thicket, I almost always wanted one when i get the Loam going, will add a second. I can’t wait for the Onslaught Cycle Land reprint in Modern Horizons
In my current list I play -1 Mountain, -1 Copperline Gorge (this card is really bad in this deck)
+ 1 Sheltered Thicket, +1 Fire-Lit Thicket
Regarding Naya Loam; I was on a Naya List at the beginning, mostly for a clean answer to threats with Path to Exile and Wear//Tear and of course KotR. But at last the manabase felt really awkward, and was not worth the trade off in my opinion. RG runs much smoother.
I think Jund will have the same problems, even if I’d love to Play Confidant and Raven’s Crime.
While I totally agree that having the Combo on the Play is much better than being on the braw, I can't say that I think the difference is that drastic. The Deck is still a Midrange deck with the best grind engine ever in Loam.
I also don't like adding Rituals, Caverns or SSG for the price of inconsintence. When playing Birds or Utopia Sprawls, BBE becomes much weaker obviously, and i value BBEs much hgher than having the possibility of having a Turn 2 Assault.
To combat Surgical I thought about brining in Edge of Tomorrow, but I couldn't find any space in the side or mainboard. I think your best bet is to try and play around it with cycle lands.
Tarmogoyf and Countryside Crusher are still a real threat, especially when the Opp mulliganed for a surgical and does not have many Removal left in their hand/deck.
I will stand by my thought that BBE is just too slow / underwhelming in a deck that has so much value like Loam. It didn't see play much before it was banned and now shouldn't be much different imo. A turn 4 BBE into Seismic Assault or Countryside Crusher is devastating, but then you have those times where you hit Flame Jab and Conflagrate or even just a bad Loam or Looting. If we played less lootings / other noncards like Flame Jab with more threats like Tireless Tracker and Crusher, then I think it would be better. At the moment, it's just a 4 drop that comes down too late in the game vs most of the hyperaggressive meta.
If I were to play a 4 drop in the deck, I would go for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. It drastically improves the control matchup, as if it is left unanswered, it can just win the game on its own. It's also very useful with AssaultLoam online since you can just play it on an empty board and tick to the ultimate. PWs are great in loam, there are just not very many that are good on color for the deck. (Sarkhan, Fireblood comes to mind as another potential option, but just doesn't impact the board like Chandra can with her minus.)
BBE is just another straight up 2 for 1 card, while the deck already has really good card advantage. That's why in the past I've run more varied threats that are better against the field like more Scavenging Ooze, Tireless Tracker for grindfests, and Bedlam Reveler which is practically a 4 for 1.
May I ask how the Control games went? This is a MU I've been labbing for a while and I just want to see how your list played out.
Part of why I ask is I’m still a big fan of Trade Routes in the deck. while it’s a do-nothing on T2, it lets you fill your hand with lands while Loam is exiled. It’s helped me a lot against decks with RIP.
In this meta, I have to think that's a little aggressive with Dredge and Phoenix being able to burn us out quick. Trade Routes is good at finishing the game, but before that is a little underwhelming. If the goal is to splash for Trade Routes and Trade Routes alone, then I think 4C is a bit underwhelming. TR is good late in the game when you have 6 lands on the battlefield and you can untap and return them all to your hand to deal the last 12 pts of damage. Otherwise, it is good with Loam as you can cycle the lands you get back, but at that point you are just going to value town for no real reason nor benefit, as the deck already has the best card advantage engine in modern in Life from the Loam.
Against control, Trade Routes is great, against Phoenix + Dredge, it's awkward AF. I don't really like TR for that reason.
Rest in Peace is a good card against Loam no doubt, but I have never had real problems with it. It makes some of our favorable matchups like Counters Company switch to only even post-board, but with my lists I've always been okay with it.
RiP turn 2 isn't that good against our deck post board. If you think your opponent will have RiP or other really good graveyard hate like Surgical, board out 1 Loam + the rest of your cuts and be sure to keep in enough threats like Countryside Crusher and Tireless Tracker. I usually board in Beast Within as a way to kill any interaction my opponent may have as well as any problematic permanent, and then if I expect something else I'll board in EE, Ratchet Bomb, Abrade (especially if they have creatures to kill), etc. Keep a Loam in hand so when you get rid of the RiP, you have options to rebuild. Playing around graveyard hate is kind of tedious in Loam, but it is critical to the deck's success. Most decks only play two RiP anyways, so a lot of times they will draw it late where you just have to get in the last few points of damage, in which case we are all set to win the game. This is another reason to play non-Tarmogoyf threats such as Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Huntmaster of the Fells to get value without a graveyard.
The matchup guide hasn't been updated on the primer since ever, so some of these important interactions have been lost to the sands of time. Playing around and baiting out graveyard hate is one of the things that makes this deck so cool to play postboard, and it's important to practice those lines.
I used to play Bloodbraid, but as others have said its not good with mana dorks.
Playing all 8 mana dorks feels like too many at times but its nice to be able to go turn 1 dork turn 2 Seismic Assault / Crusher / Scooze with mana open to activate / Field of Ruin. I would have to reconfigure my list entirely if I were to remove them and add Bloodbraid.
Has anyone tested Magmatic Insight?
Drawing multiple Seismic Assault can be awkward. Looting or Lightning Axe can fix this. I played 4 Axe the other day but that felt like too many.
How does everyone like Commune with the Gods? It feels great to grab Assault while dumping lands and Life from the Loam, but sometimes I just miss entirely or end up having a grab a mana dork and that feels quite bad.
I used to play Courser of Kruphix in here: not sure how that would fare in today's meta. Play's fairly well with Loam and Crusher.
Control matchup seems tricky. I may have to get Chandras or something to help with it.
Cindervines is interesting I'll be sure to try it out.
Is 2 Fire-lit thicket excessive? I'm only playing one right now but sometimes wish I had the second to help when I draw forest.
Does anyone play Molten Vortex as additional assaults or are they not needed?
So many thoughts. I always have the core of Loam + Assault + Crusher by aside from that there's so many options and nothing is really set in stone. I hope Horizons gives us some new goodies for this archetype.
Magmatic Insight is generally too narrow. You have the hands where you need all your lands in some capacity, or you need all your colors, and sometimes you cast it turn 1 expecting it to find another land, but then it doesn't, it's just a very awkward turn 1 play. It would be better if you are playing more lands, like 29+, but at that point I'd rather just cut some lands and play some more spells. Tormenting Voice and Cathartic Reunion are more sensible, but I'd still go for other options.
Lightning Axe discarding Seismic Assault is not value. It's card disadvantage. You are still discarding a "bad" card to play another, which is card disadvantage. If the card you discard wants to be discarded, then it's card advantage, but Lightning Axe shouldn't be played just because it can discard a second Seismic Assault. Multiple assaults are good in a modern metagame with Teferi and Trophy as well, so having one extra in hand isn't the worse thing. Faithless Looting and Tormenting Voice turning dead cards into good cards through drawing new, hopefully better ones are better imo. I stick by my decision to play Dismember which plays better off the top than Lightning Axe, but anywhere between 0 and 2 + 1 SB Axe would be fine imo.
Commune is good on the play, mediocre on the draw. It doesn't affect the board immediately, but it can find a threat to play the next turn in Crusher, Assault, or Goyf along with putting cards like Loam and Conflagrate into the graveyard.
Courser of Kruphix is very good in this deck. It could see play if aggro is heavy in your meta.
Control matchup is 60/40 in our favor. If we land Seismic Assault, it's 70/30. If we don't, our threats + Flame Jab to finish the game still make us favored game 1, postboard we just need to play around RiP and side in additional threats. It is also very possible to play around surgical, though it takes some skill. Btw, I have never tried Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the deck, it just seems good to me.
Cindervines is great, and also helps against storm. The sideboard card I really think needs to be in the deck is Engineered Explosives for Bogles and more noncreature removal to take out Amulets and such.
2 FL-T are good, the 1 Forest usually just gets discarded when it's awkward anyway.
Molten Vortex requires a lot more set up. The upside is being able to activate it turn two, though if you think about it, you would need 4 lands in your opening hand to discard 2 lands turn two. Since Molten Vortex incentivizes playing and discarding lands at the same time, you usually need to play upwards of 32 lands to get the full value of the enchantment. It's a weird deck that hasn't been optimized and is really hard to play for the same reason that most of the time the deck kills itself, so I don't usually include it in my lists. Burning Vengeance with Flame Jab actually has been used before and with 5 mana is 9 damage per turn with loam, so if you are looking for another discard outlet go there.
Is not a straight "play a card" like BBE nor "draw 3 when I enter" as Reveler, but with a single swing he will offer more overall benefits than either one.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Wow. RRG. It's like they built this card just for us.
This card is actually just what we need I think. It's an additional threat that does that Trade Routes thing at the end of the game. We needed another resilient threat, and we needed a backup for loam. That's here! This is a backup Seismic Assault, a bad one, but it can kill need to kill creatures and then transition to the last points of damage with its second ability late in the game. It provides inevitability against control and is good off the top. It has a big butt and can fill in that extra creature slot that nobody could fill. I think this will be a great addition to the deck.