@inwiththenoose - I agree winmore isn't quite the right category for BoP but it's along the same lines. Where it's really good when the situation is already good and mediocre to bad otherwise. What's the list that you are currently running? I can brainstorm some possible replacements for BoP with you.
@Mazereon - I was going to ask you for your most recent list so I could try it out next time I get to play modern. Haha. I'd like to see what you're liking about the White splash.
But to answer your questions, yes the deck has problems with resolved big beaters. But I try to prevent that by countering them on the stack (or countering the spell that cheats the fatty into play). A resolved Living End is basically game over, but preventing that is generally pretty easy. Otherwise, I end up needing to trade a Goyf+Bolt or some such to regain a neutral board. Relying on Loam to offset the negative card advantage later. I haven't played against any Death Shadow decks yet, so I can't speak specifically to that match up, but it doesn't scare me currently.
I ran Faithless for a long time and it is a really good card in the deck. I like Serum Visions because I want to naturally cast every card in my deck instead of pitching them and going through 3 cards in the deck instead of 2 is a nice upside. Scry 2 is a very strong mechanic.
@Capt.Nick
Yeah, I agree. I think the problem I'm trying to solve with BoP could be better served solving by having a better mana base? I could use some critique on that as well. I have some cards I could trade in for goyfs or Bobs so those could possibly replace the birds, or I could add more removal or discard or something else entirely. My current 75 is
@Mazereon - Yeah, RUG is much more reactive than the Jund builds. A lot of telling your opponent no and waiting for a good time to stick Assault. What was the list that you ran?
The inclusion of Fatal Push sounds good. I agree with the cuts you chose. As for your manabase, I know you need Forest and Plains to interact with Knight of the Reliquary but you have way more White sources than you really need for the cost of KotR. You could probably drop Godless Shrine for a second Blood Crypt/Stomping Ground; and Rugged Prairie could be another Jund Shock land or a utility land like Bojuka Bog/Sejiri Steppe that Knight could grab.
You could also replace the Marsh Flats with a third Bloodstained Mire. The way I see it is, you ideally want something like Stomping Ground, Blood Crypt, and Sacred Foundry in play on turn 3 to be able to cast all of your spells. All of which are picked out by Mire and Wooded Foothills. You'll lose out on tutoring for your basic Plains but a 1-of tutoring for 1-of is a marginal circumstance to build around.
I don't know if Leyline of the Void is really the answer you want for Living End. It's ok, but I think having more board wipes is probably a better plan there (Keep in mind that Grafdigger's Cage doesn't actually stop Living End since it puts creatures into play from exile). Scooze and Bog are probably good enough for Dredge. Storm is a bit harder since it doesn't rely on its graveyard. Discard is going to be your best option in hopes of stalling them out long enough for you to win.
I'd try and fit 2-3 board wipes in the mainboard. Damnation is really good, as is Anger of the Gods. There will be decks that build up too wide of a board for Assault to handle in time and having a way to 3-for-1 or better the opponent is usually game deciding. Unconditional board kill is something my RUG deck could really use. Anger does a good enough job but I wish I had access to something like Wrath of God.
@inwiththenoose - I think you could follow roughly the same landbase suggestion that I just wrote about. You both are aiming for roughly the same spells. Having something like a 4/4/1-2 or 4/3/2-3 split on your fetchlands for Foothills/Mire/Verdant is going to be a consistent color smoothing base. Bob would probably be a bit too painful for your deck with the number of 3 and 4 cmc cards you're running. I'd recommend jumping up to 4 Lightning Bolt and with the other 2 slots available, maybe Young Pyromancer, Shadow of the Grave, Thoughtseize, or Raven's Crime+Flame Jab? Or some mix there in.
@Capt. Nick I was definitely leaning toward 4/4/1 but never got around to adjusting my manabase and I mentioned before about removing a Godless Shrine for another Rx shock. I think I'll add in the 2 Lightning Bolts and add the 2 Shadow of the Grave back in and see how they keep performing. I totally forgot about Sejiri Steppe and definitely will add it MB as a tutor target for KotR. Bojuka Bog deserves a spot in my SB too for other graveyard decks in addition to my Grafdigger's Cages.
@Mazeron I really like the idea of Thrun, the Last Troll in the SB for midrange matches like Jund or Grixis. I'm interested to know how Timely Reinforcements works out for you since Lingering Souls does similar things in chumping against Death's Shadow decks.
Instead of Timely Reinforcements, what does everyone think about sideboarding 3 Kitchen Finks for the lifegain and body against fast decks?
3 long and grindy games. I get him game 1, in game 2 he Traverses for Bojuka Bog which gets me pretty hard, and game 3 I just couldn't shoot down Tasigur + Lingering Souls.
Round 2 vs. Homebrew Elves
A true homebrew. All the mana producing elves (plus Priest of Titania!), Joraga Treespeaker, Coat of Arms, Harmonize, Rancor, and a special surprise for later. Game 1 I discard and kill lots of stuff, but Harmonize and Lead the Stampede for 5 get him back in it, and I get run over. Game 2 I start with discard, and see Priest of Titania... how interesting. I call a judge, and it turns into a Snow-Covered Forest, and we proceed. Maelstrom Pulse and Anger of the Gods do lots of work, but my first Seismic Assault gets Naturalized. I spend several turns digging with Loam + 2 cycling lands, eventually milling over all 3 remaining Assaults (boourns), but soon after that find Worm Harvest, and my opponent gets killed by 15 Worms. Game 3 is fairly back and forth. I kill and discard his stuff, but I draw all 4 Loams, and am starting to whiff on action again. He gets to six Forests and he slams... Scuttling Doom Engine. I draw Seismic Assault the next turn, but it's too late.
Round 3 vs. R/G 8-whack
Game 1 he's stuck on 1 land while I do all my cool stuff. Discard into Bob into Seismic, and he's dead. Game 2 I get what might be the fastest goldfish possible. Turn 1 discard, turn 2 Loam back 2 lands, turn 3 Seismic Assault, turn 4 Shoot for 2, Loam back some lands, shoot for 10, Shadow, shoot for 10 again to bring the grand total to 22 damage to the face. Seismic Assault is a hell of a card sometimes.
Round 4 vs. Jeskai Control/Burn
Game 1 I go Discard, Bob, Seismic, Loam, and he scoops. Game 2 is a lot more grindy, and I eventually start spamming Worm Harvest, which eats counterspells for 2 turns before making 5 tokens. I attack, but I'm at 9. He Lavamancers my face, Electrolyzes me, then on his turn he Helix + Lavamancers again and I'm dead. I take out the Nature's Claims for more removal. I had anticipated Rest in Peace, because I'm a graveyard deck and he's playing white, but after Lavamancers I'm certain there are no RIPs. I get some discard, and Slaughter Games his Cryptics while I know he has 1 in hand, but he keeps bolting me, and eventually I die to Snapcaster + Colonade.
A pretty dismal 1/3 showing for tonight. I did get to live the "22 your face" on turn 4 dream, but a couple sloppy plays and a horrendous draw in a game 3 contributed to my crap record.
Changes I would make include -1 Shadow, -2 Raven's Crime, +2 Faithless, +1 Abrupt Decay. Raven's Crime will go to the board, and Shadow will be shaved because I tend to draw it where it won't matter very often. More dig in the main deck should help get to Assault Loam quicker. Cycling lands definitely gave this deck a boost, but Shadows might just be too cute. I might end up cutting the remaining 2 for more removal or more dig. Vessel of Nascency was recommended by someone in this thread, and the fact that it looks at 4 cards while filling the yard for only 3 mana (which can be split on turns 1 and 2) is pretty neat. I want to add another cycling land, but I'm not sure what to cut. Always coming in tapped can really hamper early game development. I had lots of Discard, Bob, Seismic sequences, and tapped lands don't let you do that.
I think I'm gonna put the deck down for a little while, because I like to play lots of different stuff, and I'm loaning the Catacombs to a buddy who's going to Vegas. I will certainly come back to this deck though, it's a blast!
I left the Cage in the sideboard because I figured you had a meta call where it was good. It could easily be replaced with something else.
After losing every game I resolved a Molten Vortex in, I stopped running it. I tend to get 4-5 lands in play. So I can cast Loam a couple times or Loam+Counter. I never had the mana available to make Vortex good enough. Assault is harder to cast but significantly better. Also, cutting the 4-of's in my list down by 1 is just going to make it more inconsistent. I could see replacing Keranos with Huntmaster but jamming Worm Harvest in without adjusting the mana base sounds really bad. My deck wasn't meant to do triple Green. I'm glad you had fun with what you played though!
Welcome to the thread Existenz. I tend to have pretty good success with my RUG build, I've gone 3-1 at every modern tournament I've played with it in since picking magic back up.
I tried Izzet Charm a long time ago and always found it to be underwhelming. I liked having the option of instant speed Faithless Looting and all the modes are solid. I just found deciding when to pull the trigger on a mode to be too open ended. So I was wasting turns doing nothing or Looting EoT and getting punished for it later on because I didn't have a counter or burn. I found having the individual cards made lines of play easier to decide on and generally more cost effective on any given turn.
I haven't played with Tireless Tracker but he seems solid with fetch lands and sitting on some Clues doesn't sound bad. I don't what he would slot in over but it's probably worth testing out.
Flame Jab is a solid card and works as a decent filler until you can get an Assault in play. It ends up being just on the verge of played in the deck for most people. There are a few too many good cards that can work in the deck and decent filler ends up getting cut. If you are playing a Young Pyromancer style build, the Retrace cards become very good. Generating a 1/1 and pinging something for 1 for R is not bad.
Kefnet the Mindful seems overcosted and underwhelming. I don't normally have a full grip until I'm already in a winning position. So he's basically an enchantment with a mediocre 4 mana ability. There are better cards to be running in the deck than this.
So, I played a 5 round tournament last night with the list below. It's almost card for card Mazereon's list. I swapped the Canyon Slough for a Sejiri Steppe because I've been very underwhelmed by the cycling lands. I also swapped 2 Grafdigger's Cage in the side for 2 Rakdos Charm because I couldn't find Cages and Charm seemed like an interesting card to try out.
Round 1: vs. Merfolk 1-2 Loss
Game 1: Won the roll. I had to Inquisition on turn 2 because I had Raging Ravine and Graven Cairns in my opener. He played Vial on his turn 1 then revealed another Vial, a Lord(that I took), Master of Waves, Curse Catcher and Silvergill Adept. I proceeded to have mana troubles after he Spreading Seas'd my Ravine and I was stuck with 2 Assaults in hand and a Worm Harvest for 0 because I had seen no fetch lands.
Game 2: I stuck an Assault on turn 3 when he tapped out for a Lord on his turn 2. I proceeded to grind him out with Loam. Eventually winning by showing him 6 mana in play and a hand of 3 Loams and an Urborg for a cool 20 damage.
Game 3: I kept a hand with Anger of the Gods and wanted to bait him into over committing to the board. He had a Curse Catcher on turn 1 followed by a Lord, then another Lord. I was going to Terminate his second Lord EoT if he played a third and then Anger the following turn to stabilize at 3. Instead of a third Lord, he played two more Curse Catchers and prevented me from killing his board the following turn.
Record: 0-1
Round 2: vs. Grixis Shadow 0-2 Loss
Game 1: We bot did a solid job of killing ourselves to play our spells. I had a large Knight hit play to hold off a 5/5 Death's Shadow. He resolved a Tasigur and a second Shadow. I Pushed a Shadow and ate Tasigur on an attack but he drew a Fatal Push for the following turn, killed my Knight and then me.
Game 2: He had a pretty nutty opener of 2 Street Wraith, Germaug, Tasigur, Shadow, Serum Visions and Polluted Delta. I took Visions and put up a decent defense with some spot removal and another Knight. We got to me at 4 life and him at 6. I had drawn Assault but couldn't get the three red together to cast it and finish him off with direct damage. He Kolaghan's Commanded to return a Shadow and make me discard and I wanted to tutor Bojuka Bog in response but it was unfortunately already in my Graveyard from an earlier Dredge with Loam looking for red mana. Eventually, he drew removal and finished me off.
Record: 0-2
Round 3: bye
Record: 1-2
Round 4: vs. Bant Spirits 1-2 Loss
Game 1: I Inquisition to see 2 Engineered Explosives, Collected Company, Phantasmal Image, Mausoleum Wanderer, and 2 land. I took Wanderer then we proceeded to do nothing until turn 4 when I played Huntmaster. He CoCo'd in response and dropped in Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit. Looking at a hand with a Fatal Push. I was rather unhappy about it. I planned to wait until I hit another spot removal card to kill both but he dropped Image copying the Selfless Spirit. I drew Abrupt Decay but I was getting beat for 4 a turn with no way to get my spell back. He Quelled a Faithless Looting flashback and proceeded to beat me to death.
Game 2: I had a double Inquisition opener I took a Rest in Peace from him. He tapped out on turn 4 and I jammed an Assault into play. I got Loam rolling and there was nothing he could really do about it.
Game 3: I had spot removal for most of his early plays. He cast CoCo and dropped in two Drogskol Captains on turn 4, to which I responded with Anger of the Gods for quite a blow out. Eventually I ran out of spot removal and couldn't find an Assault. Lost to an army of fliers on turns.
Record: 1-3
Round 5: vs. UR Storm 2-1 Win
Game 1: I Inquisition'd him and pulled a Ritual from his hand. He did some digging and played a Baral as I dropped in an Assault and kept him off of creatures then resolved a large KotR. The turn before he went off I was able to do 16 damage to him but he was at 17.
Game 2: I got him with an Inquisition into Collective Brutality hand to make him discard and kill a Goblin Electromancer. I stuck an Assault and Loam'd him out before he got a hand back together.
Game 3: I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Assault+Loam, Lands and a Leyline. He Wear//Tear'd my Assault but couldn't find an answer to Leyline (which ended up being a mistake on his part because he forgot Gifts Ungiven targets an opponent). I didn't have much action but he had no clock, so I ended up beating him to death with a Raging Ravine.
Overall Record: 2-3
Thoughts on the Deck:
-Collective Brutality was consistently awesome. Outside of whiffing against Death's Shadow once, it was typically effectively disruptive to a total blowout.
-Shadow of the Grave was a dead card 95% of the time and the one time it would have been live, I didn't have the mana to cast it. After a couple games, I was boarding it out in almost every match up. I don't think the deck really needs it to be competitive.
-The mana base was the largest source of trouble for me. Either I was doing 8-10 damage to myself every game, failing to hit 3 red on turn 3 because I had too many basics/utility lands, or milled out lands I needed to fetch for to hit correct colors. The mana costs on all the different cards made plays without taking a ton of damage almost impossible. Without aggressive mulling or godly luck, I don't know how I was supposed to avoid the problems I was having.
-Knight of the Reliquary was decent but mainly just a big body to throw in front of dudes. I think it only connected in one game. There was a turn against UR Storm where I was waiting for him to Empty the Warrens and I could give Ravine Prot Red with Steppe but my opponent just conceded the game. It always felt fairly underwhelming in play and drawing him never really felt like an out for any game I was in.
-Not having 4 Assault felt very bad. I only saw Vortex in one game but I only had one or two Red mana available in a turn and just never got to kill anything relevant. Except for being 1 point short vs UR Storm, if I resolved Assault and it didn't immediately die, I won the game. It's our best card and I don't like playing less than 4 of it.
-The removal suite felt awkward. I kept wanting to see Lightning Bolt. Push and Terminate are fine but with Death's Shadow decks running around, having some extra reach would be nice. Having a few more board wipes would be nice too. Trading 1-for-1 is ok for awhile but eventually you want to get some card advantage over your opponent.
-Leyline of Sanctity was awesome in the match up where it mattered and I never needed Timely Reinforcements. These are definitely solid sideboard cards and can be game winning spells.
Anyways, what I'm building towards is that the white splash felt completely unnecessary and underwhelming. The games where I could disrupt the opponent, then resolve Assault on time and follow it up with Loam and value spells all went exceptionally well. Knight wasn't bad but it didn't really do anything that Tarmogoyf couldn't have done but at a much higher cost. Without giving the deck more of a reason to run white (for example, Lightning Helix,Path to Exile, Unburial Rites, any of the hatebears) I can't see the justification for the splash. It felt like the deck was working against itself the whole time. I had a hand with Urborg, a forest and a filter with Assault, Looting, Push and Inquisition. So I kept it because it does things but it was just awkward and forced me to play turn 2 by wasting a mana and then be incapable of casting Assault on turn 3. I could have potentially draw out of it but the hands where I had Jund shocks and fetches felt so much more fluid and effective. I could actually play around my opponent when the colors worked.
I know you said you can't afford Goyfs but I think Countryside Crusher would be functional enough in place of Knight and make the mana work much better for you. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on your deck or your playstyle. I just had such a difficult time making the deck do what it was trying to do. I think if you gave a straight Jund Loam list a try you'd find it to work more effective than the list you're currently running. Having a stronger focus on the core power houses of the deck supported by a mild disruption and removal suite with a consistent mana base would be a better launching point than trying to make a 4 color splash list work. The mana requirements are already extremely intensive for a 3 color deck.
So going forward, I'd either recommend cutting the white splash and trying to make a 3 color list work or really dial in what your cards require of your mana base and giving that an extreme overhaul. You'd need to up the number of fetches to at least 10, drop a handful of the utility lands for more duals, pick 2 of the most important basics to keep in the deck and ditch the rest, probably get another filter in there, and make sure that there are multiple ways that you can cast a variety of opening hands. Think about the order you are most likely going to cast your cards, how those plays lead in to your future potential plays and how you can consistently make your best options available to you when you need them. I don't think this is impossible to do but I do think it is an extremely difficult task to take on and that you can solve a lot of these problems by modifying your card choices and streamlining the deck more.
Assault Loam is a flexible deck and is capable of doing a wide variety of things but it can't do everything.
@Capt. Nick
Thanks for testing it out! It definitely is helpful to have someone more familiar with the deck than I am give a report.
- RE: Mana Base: I've played a league and mostly testing out the deck in lobbies on MTGO, and I feel like my mana wasn't terrible, but even the relatively small white splash made it much more tough to get the right colors on time based on the last configuration I posted. It felt much less smooth than any 3 color deck I've played. I really like KotR but I think I ought to go Naya if I really want to play her. That said, I've been testing a straight Jund Loam list that I'll list below.
- I haven't tried Collective Brutality in the deck yet, but I've been trying to find some space for them to give it a shot. They're in my sideboard at the very least.
- I think I'm starting to agree on Shadow of the Grave too. Like I said before, it's generally a card I just end up discarding to Faithless Looting. The plan to get back a card from Thoughtseize also just seems bad to me, but it could be how people set up their MB.
- I think Countryside Crusher is a fine beater/alt-win condition, but do you think Goyf would be better? Crusher can reasonably get much much bigger than a goyf in my list.
Here's what I'm trying out. I wanna try to get some fastlands in there but I'm not sure where to add them or what to remove.
Round 1: vs B Zombies 2-0 Win
This was a kid at his first modern event with a deck of zombies from Amonkhet.
Game 1: He gets a pretty aggressive start but I rip a Maelstrom Pulse and remove most of his board. I land a Huntmaster of the Fells next turn and use the wolf token as a chump blocker for one of his smaller creatures. He makes me sac my Huntmaster with a Cartouche, but I pull a Seismic Assault and Countryside Crusher and ride them to win game 1.
Game 2: He didn't do much this game as he apparently kept drawing lands the whole game. I removed whatever threats he had and Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam give me the win.
Record: 1 - 0
Round 2: vs. Affinity 2-1 Win
Game 1: I ended up having to mull to 6, which wasn't so bad since I did have early interaction that kept me in the game. Used a T1 Thoughtseize to rip a Mox Opal (which was between that or a Master of Etherium, but I have more creature removal than artifact removal MB, and I wanted to slow him down so I could catch up). Used Ghost Quarter once to take him off some manlands, then landed a Crusher. He got a Master on the board and I had no removal in hand, so he swung in and I died.
Side-in: +2 Kitchen Finks, +1 Shatterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge. Side-out: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Faithless Looting
Game 2: I had a fairly solid opening hand and keep the 7. I think he had to mulligan this game at least once. He has a pretty slow hand but gets me down pretty low with a Vault Skirge and Cranial Plating while he get's to almost 30 life. I just end up removing whatever creatures he lands (even having to Shatterstorm an Ornithopter). He lands an Etched Champion which is problematic now that I've used my one card to remove it. I eventually get a Kitchen Finks which helps me stabilize a bit. I get a Raging Ravine and ride that with Crusher and Finks to win this game
Game 3: Pretty much the same story here. I think he had to mull to 4 on this one and still had a really slow hand. I end up Loaming a GQ to remove his manlands so they're not much of a threat to me, and I'm able to keep his stuff off the board for my 2 Finks to ride me to victory.
Record: 2 - 0
Round 3: vs GW Tron 0 - 2 Loss
This match up feels almost unwinnable with my list. Unless I can land an Assault early and miss their Relic of Progenitus or they just never find tron, I don't know how I win.
Game 1: I GQ a tower to slow him down so I can catch up with my slower hand. I Loam it back to GQ the next one, but he Relic's my graveyard the next turn. He spins his wheels a bit and finds tron, slams down Karn, which removes my Crusher. I remove Karn with a Pulse and next turn he gets an Ugin. I pull another Crusher and leave a fetch on the field in case he +1's his Ugin at the Crusher, hoping I can take Ugin down, but he gets a Wurmcoil next turn and that's practically game over for me after this. He ends up ulting Ugin and getting an Emrakul, the Promised End. I concede
Side in: I wasn't expecting any tron so I have nothing to really bring in.
Game 2: Almost the same story. I keep him off his lands for a bit with GQ and loam. I was able to get an Assault and Huntmaster down, but it wasn't enough as he ends up getting another Emrakul.
Record: 2 - 1
Round 3: vs. BW Eldrazi & Taxes 2 - 0 Win
Game 1: T1 IOK grabs me a Leonin Arbiter. He gets an Aether Vial on the board but I pull a Pulse and remove it. He's stuck on lands/colors so bad he has to GQ his own GQ to just get a second white. I get there with Crusher.
Side-in: I think this match up is already really good for my deck, so +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Kolaghan's Command
Game 2: Almost the same story here. He never gets his second white mana, but anything he lands I have the removal and I win with Assault and Loam.
Record: 3 - 1
Thoughts:
- Overall, I think I got lucky in the unfortunate way of my opponents not drawing well. It doesn't feel good, but I think my removal suite certainly shined and was definitely a part of my victory last night.
- I'm happy with my MB for the most part. I configured it such that it's basically your basic Jund deck with Assaults, Loams, and Crushers. The amount of removal and permanent removal worked really well. I'm not sure how I'd change it at the moment.
- This mana base worked SO SO well. Other than the occasional turns where I was stuck on 3 lands (which is mostly fine), I had no problems with color fixing or anything. I'm sure I could tweak the numbers a bit more -- I added a second Stomping Ground instead of a second Blood Crypt last minute due to concerns about green mana and I'm thinking of testing out removing the Overgrown Tomb since I hardly ever grab it -- but I'm very happy with this setup.
- 2 Cycling lands felt fine. They are really great in case of some graveyard hate, but they're usually a little to late for that. I've had some extra utility in using them to double loam and finish a game.
- I don't think Faithless Looting has been too great. I practically always side it out and almost never want to see it. It can be nice to help dig for stuff at times and it feels great to discard two Loam's, but it feels bad as a topdeck and isn't as useful. I might end up taking it out but I'm struggling because I think I might need that filtering
- Countryside Crusher was truly great all night for me. People definitely recognize the danger he can present in the deck. I think he's better than goyf in the deck in a couple ways:
It's a stretch, but I've found him to somewhat be a Delver of Secrets/Dark Confidant hybrid. If he reveals something off the top I don't want, I can just fetch it away given I have one. If I have two on the field, this represents the ability to grow them even bigger. Second, he basically filters us to the gas we need in a game. In the late game the last thing you'd wanna draw is a land, and Crusher just puts those in the yard where we want them.
It's a weak argument, but from only my deck, goyf can be a 6/7 at best (land, instant, sorcery, creature, enchantment) but is more likely to just be a 3/4 since I run 5 creatures and 4 enchantments. Crusher gets way bigger just by playing our deck through fetches, GQ'ing, Assault, Dredging, and even Looting.
Since Fatal Push is easily the most used removal in the format, Crusher is better in the way that he's immune to a non-revolted push. This is a minor advantage, but something to think about.
However, Crusher does come down a turn later, which is a big big disadvantage, especially in terms of tempo.
- Kolaghan's Command didn't show up too much during my games, but I'm still willing to test it out. With how much removal there is in the format and only having 5 creatures, Kommand is basically a 6th creature, a 7th discard, a MB artifact hate, and another Assault activation. It seemed okay when I did draw it, but I'm willing to try it out more.
- I wish I could find more turn 3 Assaults
I haven't played with Crusher in a long time, but I can give him a shot over Goyf next time I play. Goyf is just a fairly big guy for an easy to use casting cost. While Goyf can get big, you don't usually need more than a 4/5 to represent a big threat and 4 card types is pretty common. The finding late game gas with Crusher is solid and outside of not having the space for him, I don't remember what I had against the card years ago.
I'm glad the 3 color list worked for you. It looks more streamlined and sounds like it worked well for you. Faithless Looting has been on of the biggest beneficial cards for Jund Loam lists. The early game filtering is important for digging for Assaults and stacking your graveyard. It is no Ponder but without access to Blue, it's about as good as it gets. It is a pretty miserable top deck but as long as Loam is online and you have lands in hand, it basically reads "Draw two cards."
2 Lightning Bolts seems really odd to me. I've always been of the opinion that you either want 4 of them or it isn't something your deck needs. It's the most efficient damage-to-mana ratio burn spell. Thoughtseize could get moved to the 'board to get the other 2 Bolts in the main. Other than that minor gripe, I really like your list.
Should have at least 3 ghost quarter in your 75 and tron should be a bye as a result. You can always your ancient Grudge or board in some needles for relic of Progenitus. Between abrupt decay k command and pulse you have some mainboard answers but I would love to see some additional decay for that exact reason. It will give you more mainboard answers to non creatures which is really where we struggle. Assault usually wipes the board itself.
Goyf is just a fairly big guy for an easy to use casting cost. While Goyf can get big, you don't usually need more than a 4/5 to represent a big threat and 4 card types is pretty common. The finding late game gas with Crusher is solid and outside of not having the space for him, I don't remember what I had against the card years ago.
To be fair, we are trying to get RRR by turn three consistently, so RR shouldn't be too hard. I think the biggest advantage Goyf has over Crusher is that it comes down earlier which is hugely important in a faster format and it can already be out of bolt range (despite bolt not being run much these days). Other than that, I agree, 4/5 is all you need, but anecdotally I have won several games off the back of a 10/10+ Crusher that just hit a pocket of lands and some removal to get rid of their blockers. If you do end up giving Crusher another shot, let me know how it goes. I traded in a bunch of cards I never use and ended up trading into some Goyfs so I may try 4 Goyfs + 4 Crushers for a more aggressive leaning list.
I'm glad the 3 color list worked for you. It looks more streamlined and sounds like it worked well for you. Faithless Looting has been on of the biggest beneficial cards for Jund Loam lists. The early game filtering is important for digging for Assaults and stacking your graveyard. It is no Ponder but without access to Blue, it's about as good as it gets. It is a pretty miserable top deck but as long as Loam is online and you have lands in hand, it basically reads "Draw two cards."
It was way more streamlined and I love how painless the manabase is now. I might end up trying out 4 Wooded Foothills, 3 Bloodstained Mire and 1 Verdant Catacombs instead, but I'm happy with it otherwise (and removing the Overgrown Tomb as I mentioned last post). As a mostly blue player, Looting doesn't feel great to me but it might just be a necessary evil. In that case, I think I'd mostly want to see it later to dig further as I wouldn't want to loot away any disruption/interaction in the first couple turns so maybe 2 is where it should stay. I've thought also about a straight up draw with something like Painful Truths but it's much, much slower.
2 Lightning Bolts seems really odd to me. I've always been of the opinion that you either want 4 of them or it isn't something your deck needs. It's the most efficient damage-to-mana ratio burn spell. Thoughtseize could get moved to the 'board to get the other 2 Bolts in the main. Other than that minor gripe, I really like your list.
Coming from Grixis Shadow, 2 bolts has been fine in both cases. It's not really great as removal right now as Push performs much better in most cases. The reach is a good thing to have, but not sure 4 is necessary. I could try out 4 bolts main and put the TS in the sideboard, but I feel like seize is a better MD card because it can get rid of problematic permanents or spells before they hit the board.
Should have at least 3 ghost quarter in your 75 and tron should be a bye as a result. You can always your ancient Grudge or board in some needles for relic of Progenitus. Between abrupt decay k command and pulse you have some mainboard answers but I would love to see some additional decay for that exact reason. It will give you more mainboard answers to non creatures which is really where we struggle. Assault usually wipes the board itself.
3 GQ in the 75 could probably help, but I'm not certain what I would remove from my SB to fit them in, or how I could still have enough lands/colors in my mana base for them. Any suggestions? I do have 2 extra Decays in SB, and I feel 3 is probably fine for my meta. I actually found I never really needed to board them in at my shop, but that could change.
Yeah, having the mana to cast Crusher isn't the problem. It's just that 3cmc vs 2cmc is pretty big. Like, being able to Loam and cast Goyf on turn 4. But also, 1G is less restrictive in terms of available usable lands. So if I need to use 1RR that may eat up some of my available blue sources or may require me to use my one R/G land in play. Something along those lines tends to come up between turns 3-5. But you're correct, double Red isn't a problem for the deck.
If you think double Bolt is a better meta call, sounds good to me. I'm still adjusting to the meta since I've just recently been getting back into Magic. The all or nothing philosophy was just my old deck building mentality. I'm open to changing that though. With Shadow decks running around and having to deal with large guys, I can get behind wanting to 1-for-1 with a Shadow. Once creatures start getting beyond x/4's, it is difficult to stabilize the board with Assault. Though, having burn to point at the Shadow player's face sounds good to me as well.
I agree Faithless Looting isn't the best draw spell ever but I've never really had an issue casting it turn 1. You see 2 more cards and get to sculpt the best 6 from the 8 cards you have during resolution. It's not the same as being left with 7 but it's pretty solid. Especially when you can benefit from those cards in the yard. Also, if you were playing Goyf, it's great for setting up a fat one on turn 2.
I would trim the 2nd mountain in the mainboard for a 2nd ghost quarter. I would also trim a fetchland if I REALLY had to hedge towards the tron match up. The sideboard bog can easily become the 3rd ghost quarter however. You have 2 grafdiggers cage and sorcery speed bog is often just garbage. You would be better off with Ravenous Trap if you really want that graveyard dump.
I would trim the 2nd mountain in the mainboard for a 2nd ghost quarter. I would also trim a fetchland if I REALLY had to hedge towards the tron match up. The sideboard bog can easily become the 3rd ghost quarter however. You have 2 grafdiggers cage and sorcery speed bog is often just garbage. You would be better off with Ravenous Trap if you really want that graveyard dump.
That actually might be a good idea -- I'll give it a shot. I figure it might even give me a better hedge against other midrange and big mana decks, and Death's Shadow decks as well. RE: Bojuka Bog I put it in my sideboard for some SB hate against Living End, since Grafdigger's Cage doesn't do anything against them.
This is probably terrible and way too slow, but....
Ramunap Ruins reduces the deck building costs of the Assault Loam package significantly, though at the cost of the activations becoming much more expensive.
One issue I've always had is the Assault-Vortex + Loam engine takes a fair number of spell slots and makes the deck very vulnerable to graveyard hate. Also, you have so many chances for redundant Assaults because the enchantment tutors are all terrible in Modern. And if you want to get out of the package to dodge hate you need a ton of SB cards to bring in.
With Ramunap Ruins, you could get by with a minimalist package as small as: 1 Ruins, some Life From the Loam and maybe some Traverse the Ulvenwald or Knight of the Reliquary. Maybe you play 1-2 Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex. With this setup, the Loams are your LD package probably and a slight inevitability boost. The land burn isn't at all Plan A, its Plan B or C, but all it costs you is the slots for Loam itself and some sub-optimal lands. You still have room for 30 spells doing something else if you were going to play some number of Traverses or Knights regardless.
I played in a 1k Modern event last Sunday and did alright. Placed 20 out of 56 with an overall score of 3-2-1. I was going to do a more detailed write up but this past week has been really busy. I played against UW Pillow Fort round 1 and drew, then had odd pairings for the rest of the tournament. I beat a Living End/Scapeshift combo deck, Elfball, and Esper Delver. I lost to Jeskai Control and Grixis Death's Shadow.
The main things I took away from the tournament were:
-Tarmogoyf is fairly awkward in the Death's Shadow match up. Delve tends to cut into his P/T and keeps him from effectively deterring attacks (his intended role in the deck). I've been kicking around ideas for replacements and I'm thinking Young Pyromancer would be decent. GrixisDS's creatures don't have evasion, so generating a bunch of chump blockers should be fairly effective. Having the reach with burn spells was really nice here. I had some awkward mid-late game draws (basically no dig and no Assaults) the match didn't feel that bad post-board but their top decks start to get better than ours as the game goes on but I don't think they can beat a resolved Assault. Dismember is solid removal here but getting it Stubborn Denial'd really sucks.
-Against Control, I used to try to bump up the control elements in my deck to stick an early threat and protect it for longer. I think that I'm going to try boarding in to more of an aggressive game plan for this match up in the future. Thrun does a lot of work in this match up but without some additional support, he can't win games by himself. Ghost Quarter is always a champ in this match up against Celestial Colonnades.
-Curator of Mysteries never came into play during the tournament. I cycled him against Control to protect a Loam, which was nice. I think I'm going to keep it in and see how it continues to play out. Having the versatility of being a 1 mana cycle or a 4-drop beater that gets benefits with Assault seems solid.
If you want to know more about a particular match, I can give you some general high and low points of each but I don't have a sharp memory of the event so I'll spare you the foggy details for now.
@Existenz: I like the synergy of Hollow One and Leave // Chance with the deck but without support, they don't do a whole lot. I'd like to hear how they work out for you. Chance caught my eye as a neat interaction with a grip of lands and Loam in the yard. Drawing 4-7 cards seems good and being able to cast it from the 'yard is a nice bonus. 4cmc is a little rough though and Leave seems too "all-in" for my tastes. Fiery Justice seems like sweet tech for the DS match up. Let me know how testing goes for you!
I have been kicking around the idea of running Curse of the Swine. Since it Exiles creatures straight up and derpy 2/2's are very easy for RUG Loam to deal with. Otherwise, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, or Beast Within are the best destroy effects we can play.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
RUG Forever A Loam
Counter CatUWRG
RGTitan Fall
QuestSteelUW
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@Mazereon - I was going to ask you for your most recent list so I could try it out next time I get to play modern. Haha. I'd like to see what you're liking about the White splash.
But to answer your questions, yes the deck has problems with resolved big beaters. But I try to prevent that by countering them on the stack (or countering the spell that cheats the fatty into play). A resolved Living End is basically game over, but preventing that is generally pretty easy. Otherwise, I end up needing to trade a Goyf+Bolt or some such to regain a neutral board. Relying on Loam to offset the negative card advantage later. I haven't played against any Death Shadow decks yet, so I can't speak specifically to that match up, but it doesn't scare me currently.
I ran Faithless for a long time and it is a really good card in the deck. I like Serum Visions because I want to naturally cast every card in my deck instead of pitching them and going through 3 cards in the deck instead of 2 is a nice upside. Scry 2 is a very strong mechanic.
Yeah, I agree. I think the problem I'm trying to solve with BoP could be better served solving by having a better mana base? I could use some critique on that as well. I have some cards I could trade in for goyfs or Bobs so those could possibly replace the birds, or I could add more removal or discard or something else entirely. My current 75 is
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Instants/Sorceries
3 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Faithless Looting
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
2 Terminate
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
Enchantments
4 Seismic Assault
Lands
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Canyon Slough
1 Godless Shrine
1 Graven Cairns
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
The inclusion of Fatal Push sounds good. I agree with the cuts you chose. As for your manabase, I know you need Forest and Plains to interact with Knight of the Reliquary but you have way more White sources than you really need for the cost of KotR. You could probably drop Godless Shrine for a second Blood Crypt/Stomping Ground; and Rugged Prairie could be another Jund Shock land or a utility land like Bojuka Bog/Sejiri Steppe that Knight could grab.
You could also replace the Marsh Flats with a third Bloodstained Mire. The way I see it is, you ideally want something like Stomping Ground, Blood Crypt, and Sacred Foundry in play on turn 3 to be able to cast all of your spells. All of which are picked out by Mire and Wooded Foothills. You'll lose out on tutoring for your basic Plains but a 1-of tutoring for 1-of is a marginal circumstance to build around.
I don't know if Leyline of the Void is really the answer you want for Living End. It's ok, but I think having more board wipes is probably a better plan there (Keep in mind that Grafdigger's Cage doesn't actually stop Living End since it puts creatures into play from exile). Scooze and Bog are probably good enough for Dredge. Storm is a bit harder since it doesn't rely on its graveyard. Discard is going to be your best option in hopes of stalling them out long enough for you to win.
A board like this (for a diverse meta) is what I'd go with for you:
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Grafdigger's Cage
I'd try and fit 2-3 board wipes in the mainboard. Damnation is really good, as is Anger of the Gods. There will be decks that build up too wide of a board for Assault to handle in time and having a way to 3-for-1 or better the opponent is usually game deciding. Unconditional board kill is something my RUG deck could really use. Anger does a good enough job but I wish I had access to something like Wrath of God.
@inwiththenoose - I think you could follow roughly the same landbase suggestion that I just wrote about. You both are aiming for roughly the same spells. Having something like a 4/4/1-2 or 4/3/2-3 split on your fetchlands for Foothills/Mire/Verdant is going to be a consistent color smoothing base. Bob would probably be a bit too painful for your deck with the number of 3 and 4 cmc cards you're running. I'd recommend jumping up to 4 Lightning Bolt and with the other 2 slots available, maybe Young Pyromancer, Shadow of the Grave, Thoughtseize, or Raven's Crime+Flame Jab? Or some mix there in.
@Mazeron I really like the idea of Thrun, the Last Troll in the SB for midrange matches like Jund or Grixis. I'm interested to know how Timely Reinforcements works out for you since Lingering Souls does similar things in chumping against Death's Shadow decks.
Instead of Timely Reinforcements, what does everyone think about sideboarding 3 Kitchen Finks for the lifegain and body against fast decks?
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
4 Seismic Assault
3 Fatal Push
3 Shadow of the Grave
3 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Faithless Looting
2 Raven's Crime
1 Collective Brutality
1 Worm Harvest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Graven Cairns
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Canyon Slough
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbom
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Neelde
1 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
Round 1 vs. Abzan Traverse
3 long and grindy games. I get him game 1, in game 2 he Traverses for Bojuka Bog which gets me pretty hard, and game 3 I just couldn't shoot down Tasigur + Lingering Souls.
Round 2 vs. Homebrew Elves
A true homebrew. All the mana producing elves (plus Priest of Titania!), Joraga Treespeaker, Coat of Arms, Harmonize, Rancor, and a special surprise for later. Game 1 I discard and kill lots of stuff, but Harmonize and Lead the Stampede for 5 get him back in it, and I get run over. Game 2 I start with discard, and see Priest of Titania... how interesting. I call a judge, and it turns into a Snow-Covered Forest, and we proceed. Maelstrom Pulse and Anger of the Gods do lots of work, but my first Seismic Assault gets Naturalized. I spend several turns digging with Loam + 2 cycling lands, eventually milling over all 3 remaining Assaults (boourns), but soon after that find Worm Harvest, and my opponent gets killed by 15 Worms. Game 3 is fairly back and forth. I kill and discard his stuff, but I draw all 4 Loams, and am starting to whiff on action again. He gets to six Forests and he slams... Scuttling Doom Engine. I draw Seismic Assault the next turn, but it's too late.
Round 3 vs. R/G 8-whack
Game 1 he's stuck on 1 land while I do all my cool stuff. Discard into Bob into Seismic, and he's dead. Game 2 I get what might be the fastest goldfish possible. Turn 1 discard, turn 2 Loam back 2 lands, turn 3 Seismic Assault, turn 4 Shoot for 2, Loam back some lands, shoot for 10, Shadow, shoot for 10 again to bring the grand total to 22 damage to the face. Seismic Assault is a hell of a card sometimes.
Round 4 vs. Jeskai Control/Burn
Game 1 I go Discard, Bob, Seismic, Loam, and he scoops. Game 2 is a lot more grindy, and I eventually start spamming Worm Harvest, which eats counterspells for 2 turns before making 5 tokens. I attack, but I'm at 9. He Lavamancers my face, Electrolyzes me, then on his turn he Helix + Lavamancers again and I'm dead. I take out the Nature's Claims for more removal. I had anticipated Rest in Peace, because I'm a graveyard deck and he's playing white, but after Lavamancers I'm certain there are no RIPs. I get some discard, and Slaughter Games his Cryptics while I know he has 1 in hand, but he keeps bolting me, and eventually I die to Snapcaster + Colonade.
A pretty dismal 1/3 showing for tonight. I did get to live the "22 your face" on turn 4 dream, but a couple sloppy plays and a horrendous draw in a game 3 contributed to my crap record.
Changes I would make include -1 Shadow, -2 Raven's Crime, +2 Faithless, +1 Abrupt Decay. Raven's Crime will go to the board, and Shadow will be shaved because I tend to draw it where it won't matter very often. More dig in the main deck should help get to Assault Loam quicker. Cycling lands definitely gave this deck a boost, but Shadows might just be too cute. I might end up cutting the remaining 2 for more removal or more dig. Vessel of Nascency was recommended by someone in this thread, and the fact that it looks at 4 cards while filling the yard for only 3 mana (which can be split on turns 1 and 2) is pretty neat. I want to add another cycling land, but I'm not sure what to cut. Always coming in tapped can really hamper early game development. I had lots of Discard, Bob, Seismic sequences, and tapped lands don't let you do that.
I think I'm gonna put the deck down for a little while, because I like to play lots of different stuff, and I'm loaning the Catacombs to a buddy who's going to Vegas. I will certainly come back to this deck though, it's a blast!
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
After losing every game I resolved a Molten Vortex in, I stopped running it. I tend to get 4-5 lands in play. So I can cast Loam a couple times or Loam+Counter. I never had the mana available to make Vortex good enough. Assault is harder to cast but significantly better. Also, cutting the 4-of's in my list down by 1 is just going to make it more inconsistent. I could see replacing Keranos with Huntmaster but jamming Worm Harvest in without adjusting the mana base sounds really bad. My deck wasn't meant to do triple Green. I'm glad you had fun with what you played though!
I tried Izzet Charm a long time ago and always found it to be underwhelming. I liked having the option of instant speed Faithless Looting and all the modes are solid. I just found deciding when to pull the trigger on a mode to be too open ended. So I was wasting turns doing nothing or Looting EoT and getting punished for it later on because I didn't have a counter or burn. I found having the individual cards made lines of play easier to decide on and generally more cost effective on any given turn.
I haven't played with Tireless Tracker but he seems solid with fetch lands and sitting on some Clues doesn't sound bad. I don't what he would slot in over but it's probably worth testing out.
Flame Jab is a solid card and works as a decent filler until you can get an Assault in play. It ends up being just on the verge of played in the deck for most people. There are a few too many good cards that can work in the deck and decent filler ends up getting cut. If you are playing a Young Pyromancer style build, the Retrace cards become very good. Generating a 1/1 and pinging something for 1 for R is not bad.
Kefnet the Mindful seems overcosted and underwhelming. I don't normally have a full grip until I'm already in a winning position. So he's basically an enchantment with a mediocre 4 mana ability. There are better cards to be running in the deck than this.
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Enchantments:
3 Seismic Assault
1 Molten Vortex
Sorceries:
4 Life from the Loam
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Faithless Looting
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Worm Harvest
Instants:
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Shadow of the Grave
Lands:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Graven Cairns
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Round 1: vs. Merfolk 1-2 Loss
Game 1: Won the roll. I had to Inquisition on turn 2 because I had Raging Ravine and Graven Cairns in my opener. He played Vial on his turn 1 then revealed another Vial, a Lord(that I took), Master of Waves, Curse Catcher and Silvergill Adept. I proceeded to have mana troubles after he Spreading Seas'd my Ravine and I was stuck with 2 Assaults in hand and a Worm Harvest for 0 because I had seen no fetch lands.
Game 2: I stuck an Assault on turn 3 when he tapped out for a Lord on his turn 2. I proceeded to grind him out with Loam. Eventually winning by showing him 6 mana in play and a hand of 3 Loams and an Urborg for a cool 20 damage.
Game 3: I kept a hand with Anger of the Gods and wanted to bait him into over committing to the board. He had a Curse Catcher on turn 1 followed by a Lord, then another Lord. I was going to Terminate his second Lord EoT if he played a third and then Anger the following turn to stabilize at 3. Instead of a third Lord, he played two more Curse Catchers and prevented me from killing his board the following turn.
Record: 0-1
Round 2: vs. Grixis Shadow 0-2 Loss
Game 1: We bot did a solid job of killing ourselves to play our spells. I had a large Knight hit play to hold off a 5/5 Death's Shadow. He resolved a Tasigur and a second Shadow. I Pushed a Shadow and ate Tasigur on an attack but he drew a Fatal Push for the following turn, killed my Knight and then me.
Game 2: He had a pretty nutty opener of 2 Street Wraith, Germaug, Tasigur, Shadow, Serum Visions and Polluted Delta. I took Visions and put up a decent defense with some spot removal and another Knight. We got to me at 4 life and him at 6. I had drawn Assault but couldn't get the three red together to cast it and finish him off with direct damage. He Kolaghan's Commanded to return a Shadow and make me discard and I wanted to tutor Bojuka Bog in response but it was unfortunately already in my Graveyard from an earlier Dredge with Loam looking for red mana. Eventually, he drew removal and finished me off.
Record: 0-2
Round 3: bye
Record: 1-2
Round 4: vs. Bant Spirits 1-2 Loss
Game 1: I Inquisition to see 2 Engineered Explosives, Collected Company, Phantasmal Image, Mausoleum Wanderer, and 2 land. I took Wanderer then we proceeded to do nothing until turn 4 when I played Huntmaster. He CoCo'd in response and dropped in Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit. Looking at a hand with a Fatal Push. I was rather unhappy about it. I planned to wait until I hit another spot removal card to kill both but he dropped Image copying the Selfless Spirit. I drew Abrupt Decay but I was getting beat for 4 a turn with no way to get my spell back. He Quelled a Faithless Looting flashback and proceeded to beat me to death.
Game 2: I had a double Inquisition opener I took a Rest in Peace from him. He tapped out on turn 4 and I jammed an Assault into play. I got Loam rolling and there was nothing he could really do about it.
Game 3: I had spot removal for most of his early plays. He cast CoCo and dropped in two Drogskol Captains on turn 4, to which I responded with Anger of the Gods for quite a blow out. Eventually I ran out of spot removal and couldn't find an Assault. Lost to an army of fliers on turns.
Record: 1-3
Round 5: vs. UR Storm 2-1 Win
Game 1: I Inquisition'd him and pulled a Ritual from his hand. He did some digging and played a Baral as I dropped in an Assault and kept him off of creatures then resolved a large KotR. The turn before he went off I was able to do 16 damage to him but he was at 17.
Game 2: I got him with an Inquisition into Collective Brutality hand to make him discard and kill a Goblin Electromancer. I stuck an Assault and Loam'd him out before he got a hand back together.
Game 3: I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Assault+Loam, Lands and a Leyline. He Wear//Tear'd my Assault but couldn't find an answer to Leyline (which ended up being a mistake on his part because he forgot Gifts Ungiven targets an opponent). I didn't have much action but he had no clock, so I ended up beating him to death with a Raging Ravine.
Overall Record: 2-3
Thoughts on the Deck:
-Collective Brutality was consistently awesome. Outside of whiffing against Death's Shadow once, it was typically effectively disruptive to a total blowout.
-Shadow of the Grave was a dead card 95% of the time and the one time it would have been live, I didn't have the mana to cast it. After a couple games, I was boarding it out in almost every match up. I don't think the deck really needs it to be competitive.
-The mana base was the largest source of trouble for me. Either I was doing 8-10 damage to myself every game, failing to hit 3 red on turn 3 because I had too many basics/utility lands, or milled out lands I needed to fetch for to hit correct colors. The mana costs on all the different cards made plays without taking a ton of damage almost impossible. Without aggressive mulling or godly luck, I don't know how I was supposed to avoid the problems I was having.
-Knight of the Reliquary was decent but mainly just a big body to throw in front of dudes. I think it only connected in one game. There was a turn against UR Storm where I was waiting for him to Empty the Warrens and I could give Ravine Prot Red with Steppe but my opponent just conceded the game. It always felt fairly underwhelming in play and drawing him never really felt like an out for any game I was in.
-Not having 4 Assault felt very bad. I only saw Vortex in one game but I only had one or two Red mana available in a turn and just never got to kill anything relevant. Except for being 1 point short vs UR Storm, if I resolved Assault and it didn't immediately die, I won the game. It's our best card and I don't like playing less than 4 of it.
-The removal suite felt awkward. I kept wanting to see Lightning Bolt. Push and Terminate are fine but with Death's Shadow decks running around, having some extra reach would be nice. Having a few more board wipes would be nice too. Trading 1-for-1 is ok for awhile but eventually you want to get some card advantage over your opponent.
-Leyline of Sanctity was awesome in the match up where it mattered and I never needed Timely Reinforcements. These are definitely solid sideboard cards and can be game winning spells.
Anyways, what I'm building towards is that the white splash felt completely unnecessary and underwhelming. The games where I could disrupt the opponent, then resolve Assault on time and follow it up with Loam and value spells all went exceptionally well. Knight wasn't bad but it didn't really do anything that Tarmogoyf couldn't have done but at a much higher cost. Without giving the deck more of a reason to run white (for example, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Unburial Rites, any of the hatebears) I can't see the justification for the splash. It felt like the deck was working against itself the whole time. I had a hand with Urborg, a forest and a filter with Assault, Looting, Push and Inquisition. So I kept it because it does things but it was just awkward and forced me to play turn 2 by wasting a mana and then be incapable of casting Assault on turn 3. I could have potentially draw out of it but the hands where I had Jund shocks and fetches felt so much more fluid and effective. I could actually play around my opponent when the colors worked.
I know you said you can't afford Goyfs but I think Countryside Crusher would be functional enough in place of Knight and make the mana work much better for you. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on your deck or your playstyle. I just had such a difficult time making the deck do what it was trying to do. I think if you gave a straight Jund Loam list a try you'd find it to work more effective than the list you're currently running. Having a stronger focus on the core power houses of the deck supported by a mild disruption and removal suite with a consistent mana base would be a better launching point than trying to make a 4 color splash list work. The mana requirements are already extremely intensive for a 3 color deck.
So going forward, I'd either recommend cutting the white splash and trying to make a 3 color list work or really dial in what your cards require of your mana base and giving that an extreme overhaul. You'd need to up the number of fetches to at least 10, drop a handful of the utility lands for more duals, pick 2 of the most important basics to keep in the deck and ditch the rest, probably get another filter in there, and make sure that there are multiple ways that you can cast a variety of opening hands. Think about the order you are most likely going to cast your cards, how those plays lead in to your future potential plays and how you can consistently make your best options available to you when you need them. I don't think this is impossible to do but I do think it is an extremely difficult task to take on and that you can solve a lot of these problems by modifying your card choices and streamlining the deck more.
Assault Loam is a flexible deck and is capable of doing a wide variety of things but it can't do everything.
Thanks for testing it out! It definitely is helpful to have someone more familiar with the deck than I am give a report.
- RE: Mana Base: I've played a league and mostly testing out the deck in lobbies on MTGO, and I feel like my mana wasn't terrible, but even the relatively small white splash made it much more tough to get the right colors on time based on the last configuration I posted. It felt much less smooth than any 3 color deck I've played. I really like KotR but I think I ought to go Naya if I really want to play her. That said, I've been testing a straight Jund Loam list that I'll list below.
- I haven't tried Collective Brutality in the deck yet, but I've been trying to find some space for them to give it a shot. They're in my sideboard at the very least.
- I think I'm starting to agree on Shadow of the Grave too. Like I said before, it's generally a card I just end up discarding to Faithless Looting. The plan to get back a card from Thoughtseize also just seems bad to me, but it could be how people set up their MB.
- I think Countryside Crusher is a fine beater/alt-win condition, but do you think Goyf would be better? Crusher can reasonably get much much bigger than a goyf in my list.
Here's what I'm trying out. I wanna try to get some fastlands in there but I'm not sure where to add them or what to remove.
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Faithless Looting
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Seismic Assault
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
2 Canyon Slough
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Faithless Looting
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantment
4 Seismic Assault
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Raging Ravine
1 Canyon Slough
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dreadbore
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Abrupy Decay
1 Shatterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Worm Harvest
1 Bojuka Bog
Round 1: vs B Zombies 2-0 Win
This was a kid at his first modern event with a deck of zombies from Amonkhet.
Game 1: He gets a pretty aggressive start but I rip a Maelstrom Pulse and remove most of his board. I land a Huntmaster of the Fells next turn and use the wolf token as a chump blocker for one of his smaller creatures. He makes me sac my Huntmaster with a Cartouche, but I pull a Seismic Assault and Countryside Crusher and ride them to win game 1.
Game 2: He didn't do much this game as he apparently kept drawing lands the whole game. I removed whatever threats he had and Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam give me the win.
Record: 1 - 0
Round 2: vs. Affinity 2-1 Win
Game 1: I ended up having to mull to 6, which wasn't so bad since I did have early interaction that kept me in the game. Used a T1 Thoughtseize to rip a Mox Opal (which was between that or a Master of Etherium, but I have more creature removal than artifact removal MB, and I wanted to slow him down so I could catch up). Used Ghost Quarter once to take him off some manlands, then landed a Crusher. He got a Master on the board and I had no removal in hand, so he swung in and I died.
Side-in: +2 Kitchen Finks, +1 Shatterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge. Side-out: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Faithless Looting
Game 2: I had a fairly solid opening hand and keep the 7. I think he had to mulligan this game at least once. He has a pretty slow hand but gets me down pretty low with a Vault Skirge and Cranial Plating while he get's to almost 30 life. I just end up removing whatever creatures he lands (even having to Shatterstorm an Ornithopter). He lands an Etched Champion which is problematic now that I've used my one card to remove it. I eventually get a Kitchen Finks which helps me stabilize a bit. I get a Raging Ravine and ride that with Crusher and Finks to win this game
Game 3: Pretty much the same story here. I think he had to mull to 4 on this one and still had a really slow hand. I end up Loaming a GQ to remove his manlands so they're not much of a threat to me, and I'm able to keep his stuff off the board for my 2 Finks to ride me to victory.
Record: 2 - 0
Round 3: vs GW Tron 0 - 2 Loss
This match up feels almost unwinnable with my list. Unless I can land an Assault early and miss their Relic of Progenitus or they just never find tron, I don't know how I win.
Game 1: I GQ a tower to slow him down so I can catch up with my slower hand. I Loam it back to GQ the next one, but he Relic's my graveyard the next turn. He spins his wheels a bit and finds tron, slams down Karn, which removes my Crusher. I remove Karn with a Pulse and next turn he gets an Ugin. I pull another Crusher and leave a fetch on the field in case he +1's his Ugin at the Crusher, hoping I can take Ugin down, but he gets a Wurmcoil next turn and that's practically game over for me after this. He ends up ulting Ugin and getting an Emrakul, the Promised End. I concede
Side in: I wasn't expecting any tron so I have nothing to really bring in.
Game 2: Almost the same story. I keep him off his lands for a bit with GQ and loam. I was able to get an Assault and Huntmaster down, but it wasn't enough as he ends up getting another Emrakul.
Record: 2 - 1
Round 3: vs. BW Eldrazi & Taxes 2 - 0 Win
Game 1: T1 IOK grabs me a Leonin Arbiter. He gets an Aether Vial on the board but I pull a Pulse and remove it. He's stuck on lands/colors so bad he has to GQ his own GQ to just get a second white. I get there with Crusher.
Side-in: I think this match up is already really good for my deck, so +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Kolaghan's Command
Game 2: Almost the same story here. He never gets his second white mana, but anything he lands I have the removal and I win with Assault and Loam.
Record: 3 - 1
Thoughts:
- Overall, I think I got lucky in the unfortunate way of my opponents not drawing well. It doesn't feel good, but I think my removal suite certainly shined and was definitely a part of my victory last night.
- I'm happy with my MB for the most part. I configured it such that it's basically your basic Jund deck with Assaults, Loams, and Crushers. The amount of removal and permanent removal worked really well. I'm not sure how I'd change it at the moment.
- This mana base worked SO SO well. Other than the occasional turns where I was stuck on 3 lands (which is mostly fine), I had no problems with color fixing or anything. I'm sure I could tweak the numbers a bit more -- I added a second Stomping Ground instead of a second Blood Crypt last minute due to concerns about green mana and I'm thinking of testing out removing the Overgrown Tomb since I hardly ever grab it -- but I'm very happy with this setup.
- 2 Cycling lands felt fine. They are really great in case of some graveyard hate, but they're usually a little to late for that. I've had some extra utility in using them to double loam and finish a game.
- I don't think Faithless Looting has been too great. I practically always side it out and almost never want to see it. It can be nice to help dig for stuff at times and it feels great to discard two Loam's, but it feels bad as a topdeck and isn't as useful. I might end up taking it out but I'm struggling because I think I might need that filtering
- Countryside Crusher was truly great all night for me. People definitely recognize the danger he can present in the deck. I think he's better than goyf in the deck in a couple ways:
- Kolaghan's Command didn't show up too much during my games, but I'm still willing to test it out. With how much removal there is in the format and only having 5 creatures, Kommand is basically a 6th creature, a 7th discard, a MB artifact hate, and another Assault activation. It seemed okay when I did draw it, but I'm willing to try it out more.
- I wish I could find more turn 3 Assaults
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
I'm glad the 3 color list worked for you. It looks more streamlined and sounds like it worked well for you. Faithless Looting has been on of the biggest beneficial cards for Jund Loam lists. The early game filtering is important for digging for Assaults and stacking your graveyard. It is no Ponder but without access to Blue, it's about as good as it gets. It is a pretty miserable top deck but as long as Loam is online and you have lands in hand, it basically reads "Draw two cards."
2 Lightning Bolts seems really odd to me. I've always been of the opinion that you either want 4 of them or it isn't something your deck needs. It's the most efficient damage-to-mana ratio burn spell. Thoughtseize could get moved to the 'board to get the other 2 Bolts in the main. Other than that minor gripe, I really like your list.
@Mazereon - If you really want to play a graveyard based deck with Knight of the Reliquary, there was an old Junk deck that ran Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. The intent being to self-mill and cast Knights from the graveyard. It had the spicy tech of Nameless Inversion as repreatable removal with Haakon in play. You may want to check that out. Here's the link to the old thread for you: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/543312-junk-haakon-loam
To be fair, we are trying to get RRR by turn three consistently, so RR shouldn't be too hard. I think the biggest advantage Goyf has over Crusher is that it comes down earlier which is hugely important in a faster format and it can already be out of bolt range (despite bolt not being run much these days). Other than that, I agree, 4/5 is all you need, but anecdotally I have won several games off the back of a 10/10+ Crusher that just hit a pocket of lands and some removal to get rid of their blockers. If you do end up giving Crusher another shot, let me know how it goes. I traded in a bunch of cards I never use and ended up trading into some Goyfs so I may try 4 Goyfs + 4 Crushers for a more aggressive leaning list.
It was way more streamlined and I love how painless the manabase is now. I might end up trying out 4 Wooded Foothills, 3 Bloodstained Mire and 1 Verdant Catacombs instead, but I'm happy with it otherwise (and removing the Overgrown Tomb as I mentioned last post). As a mostly blue player, Looting doesn't feel great to me but it might just be a necessary evil. In that case, I think I'd mostly want to see it later to dig further as I wouldn't want to loot away any disruption/interaction in the first couple turns so maybe 2 is where it should stay. I've thought also about a straight up draw with something like Painful Truths but it's much, much slower.
Coming from Grixis Shadow, 2 bolts has been fine in both cases. It's not really great as removal right now as Push performs much better in most cases. The reach is a good thing to have, but not sure 4 is necessary. I could try out 4 bolts main and put the TS in the sideboard, but I feel like seize is a better MD card because it can get rid of problematic permanents or spells before they hit the board.
3 GQ in the 75 could probably help, but I'm not certain what I would remove from my SB to fit them in, or how I could still have enough lands/colors in my mana base for them. Any suggestions? I do have 2 extra Decays in SB, and I feel 3 is probably fine for my meta. I actually found I never really needed to board them in at my shop, but that could change.
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
If you think double Bolt is a better meta call, sounds good to me. I'm still adjusting to the meta since I've just recently been getting back into Magic. The all or nothing philosophy was just my old deck building mentality. I'm open to changing that though. With Shadow decks running around and having to deal with large guys, I can get behind wanting to 1-for-1 with a Shadow. Once creatures start getting beyond x/4's, it is difficult to stabilize the board with Assault. Though, having burn to point at the Shadow player's face sounds good to me as well.
I agree Faithless Looting isn't the best draw spell ever but I've never really had an issue casting it turn 1. You see 2 more cards and get to sculpt the best 6 from the 8 cards you have during resolution. It's not the same as being left with 7 but it's pretty solid. Especially when you can benefit from those cards in the yard. Also, if you were playing Goyf, it's great for setting up a fat one on turn 2.
That actually might be a good idea -- I'll give it a shot. I figure it might even give me a better hedge against other midrange and big mana decks, and Death's Shadow decks as well. RE: Bojuka Bog I put it in my sideboard for some SB hate against Living End, since Grafdigger's Cage doesn't do anything against them.
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15285&d=292902&f=MO
Ramunap Ruins reduces the deck building costs of the Assault Loam package significantly, though at the cost of the activations becoming much more expensive.
One issue I've always had is the Assault-Vortex + Loam engine takes a fair number of spell slots and makes the deck very vulnerable to graveyard hate. Also, you have so many chances for redundant Assaults because the enchantment tutors are all terrible in Modern. And if you want to get out of the package to dodge hate you need a ton of SB cards to bring in.
With Ramunap Ruins, you could get by with a minimalist package as small as: 1 Ruins, some Life From the Loam and maybe some Traverse the Ulvenwald or Knight of the Reliquary. Maybe you play 1-2 Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex. With this setup, the Loams are your LD package probably and a slight inevitability boost. The land burn isn't at all Plan A, its Plan B or C, but all it costs you is the slots for Loam itself and some sub-optimal lands. You still have room for 30 spells doing something else if you were going to play some number of Traverses or Knights regardless.
Here's the deck I played:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Curator of Mysteries
Spells: 27
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Life from the Loam
4 Deprive
4 Seismic Assault
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Lands: 25
1 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Raging Ravine
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Spirebluff Canal
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Counterflux
2 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
The main changes were trying out Curator of Mysteries over Keranos, God of Storms and finding room in the Board for Ghost Quarter, Dispel and Ceremonious Rejection. I was expecting more Tron to be in the event than there ended up being.
The main things I took away from the tournament were:
-Tarmogoyf is fairly awkward in the Death's Shadow match up. Delve tends to cut into his P/T and keeps him from effectively deterring attacks (his intended role in the deck). I've been kicking around ideas for replacements and I'm thinking Young Pyromancer would be decent. GrixisDS's creatures don't have evasion, so generating a bunch of chump blockers should be fairly effective. Having the reach with burn spells was really nice here. I had some awkward mid-late game draws (basically no dig and no Assaults) the match didn't feel that bad post-board but their top decks start to get better than ours as the game goes on but I don't think they can beat a resolved Assault. Dismember is solid removal here but getting it Stubborn Denial'd really sucks.
-Against Control, I used to try to bump up the control elements in my deck to stick an early threat and protect it for longer. I think that I'm going to try boarding in to more of an aggressive game plan for this match up in the future. Thrun does a lot of work in this match up but without some additional support, he can't win games by himself. Ghost Quarter is always a champ in this match up against Celestial Colonnades.
-Curator of Mysteries never came into play during the tournament. I cycled him against Control to protect a Loam, which was nice. I think I'm going to keep it in and see how it continues to play out. Having the versatility of being a 1 mana cycle or a 4-drop beater that gets benefits with Assault seems solid.
If you want to know more about a particular match, I can give you some general high and low points of each but I don't have a sharp memory of the event so I'll spare you the foggy details for now.
@Existenz: I like the synergy of Hollow One and Leave // Chance with the deck but without support, they don't do a whole lot. I'd like to hear how they work out for you. Chance caught my eye as a neat interaction with a grip of lands and Loam in the yard. Drawing 4-7 cards seems good and being able to cast it from the 'yard is a nice bonus. 4cmc is a little rough though and Leave seems too "all-in" for my tastes. Fiery Justice seems like sweet tech for the DS match up. Let me know how testing goes for you!