Hmm so if I did not see wrongly, that's 12 creatures and 4 manlands? Hmm just a question opened for everyone here: Without the mb Sphinx rev to help draw into bullets (creatures / manlands / burn etc.), wouldn't the threat density in this case be rather low? Afterall, we are not playing a pure control deck, we should want to be able to also do some consistent and considerable damage and win from there.
I mean I was thinking about this threat density issue when I saw Unwin's list, but when I saw sphinx rev, then I thought to myself "oh well, I guess that's fine then, he could just sphinx rev and draw into some creature or manland or more burn spells that may possibly in some cases win the game. Ok cool."
uhm i don't find it a problem, really. playing 4x remand and 3x electrolyze helps you to draw. in the very first turns you don't have bug threats to play anyways, the only one is geist. So i basically burn creatures and counter threats in the very first turns, and then start dropping mine. it never happened to be without any kind of threat by turn 4, btw.
what i am more worried about is that i left out a plains for that eiganjo and that's very bad because plains saves me from blood moon since it allowa me to play disenchant. Maybe i should take out that Mountain? or what? sometimes i hate those lands that enter tapped, so maybe i can take out that seachrome coast (no way i leave out colonnades since they are threats, and we have a few of them as fenrisian points out)
Yea, I think Seachrome is a decent choice to take out, since you have 4 colonnades. Having some basics in there is really helpful, both for bloodmoon and so you don't run out of fetch targets, or if your life is getting low and can't afford 3 life to play an uptapped land.
Yesterday I tested a bit with 2 cryptics, I think I definitely want at least 3 now. They're soooo good.
Yea, I think Seachrome is a decent choice to take out, since you have 4 colonnades. Having some basics in there is really helpful, both for bloodmoon and so you don't run out of fetch targets, or if your life is getting low and can't afford 3 life to play an uptapped land.
Yesterday I tested a bit with 2 cryptics, I think I definitely want at least 3 now. They're soooo good.
i've been testing against my friends melira pod deck. 4x cryptic is definitely what you want. sticking a GoST on 3 followed by a Cryptic on 4, every time, is usually the nuts.
uhm i don't find it a problem, really. playing 4x remand and 3x electrolyze helps you to draw. in the very first turns you don't have bug threats to play anyways, the only one is geist. So i basically burn creatures and counter threats in the very first turns, and then start dropping mine. it never happened to be without any kind of threat by turn 4, btw.
what i am more worried about is that i left out a plains for that eiganjo and that's very bad because plains saves me from blood moon since it allowa me to play disenchant. Maybe i should take out that Mountain? or what? sometimes i hate those lands that enter tapped, so maybe i can take out that seachrome coast (no way i leave out colonnades since they are threats, and we have a few of them as fenrisian points out)
I understand and love both remand and electrolyzes for their added draw (in fact I play them both as 4 ofs and love it haha). And despite the low threat count, Geist himself is one when resolved is so hard to be dealt with, but Lili. damnation, verdict, and honestly IMO his biggest nightmare is to be plucked out by a turn 1 inquisition etc. still deals with him. I think where sphinx rev really comes in may be in the attrition games, a good textbook example is jund, if I get lucky I sneak in a Geist with tons of countermagic and spot removal as protection in my hand, but if not then we go back and forth with each other, one for one, until we both are low on bullets and Jund is relatively better at top-decking, I guess this is the moment where sphinx rev comes in, given this is most likely late game and we both have lots of lands, end of the jund player's turn, I cast a massive sphinx rev and BAM, the stalemate is over (unless the draws were all lands, well what do you know, sometimes crap happens :() and I take game. Where incremental advantage goes back and forth in attrition games, an explosive exponential advantage is simply one effective way to decide the victor.
As for seachrome coast, I can say that I wish that there was a UR scarland, and it'd be one of your best replacement for seachrome coast and even sulfur falls (ever drew an opening hand with great spells but 2 colonades and 1 sulfur fall, one word comes to mind "damn!" haha). Anyway, I doubt we can lose the colonnades, we don't have a UR manland that is comparable with the great colonnade, fairie conclave is no treetop village, so colonnade is likely to stay, and that means we got lots of UW lands (despite the fact that a bulk of them comes into play tap) and so you made the right choice to lose the coasts.
i've been testing against my friends melira pod deck. 4x cryptic is definitely what you want. sticking a GoST on 3 followed by a Cryptic on 4, every time, is usually the nuts.
IMHO (just my opinion, but I know a lot of you all are gonna strongly disagree with me, hehe fair enough, you have your beliefs too, as I have mine)
I really think 4 commands is a privilege that belongs more to the UW Midrange version (they earned it since they have a much more stable manabase to accommodate for the triple blue cost. Anyway, each deck has their strengths and weaknesses, we already have red for bolts and helixes and electrolyzes, perhaps it may be too greedy to tell our UW friends "I wanna have what you have too! 4 commands and even 4 tec edges!")
OR the mana base should be improved (I remembered Shouta's Eternal Command deck was also a 3 color deck, but check out how many basic islands he had (If I recalled correctly, it was 4), I may be wrong but I rationalized that as an adjustment made to accommodate the commands (Shouta don't punch me if I am wrong, I ain't as good as you are and I certainly can't read your mind haha, I am just guessing), then you would say shocklands, fountains and vents would do, but hey RDW and many fast aggro decks are around, perhaps simply fetching a basic island to help top up for the 3 blue is a safer way then excessively bolting yourself from shocks and fetches. I like the idea of mystic gate though :))
IMHO (just my opinion, but I know a lot of you all are gonna strongly disagree with me, hehe fair enough, you have your beliefs too, as I have mine)
I really think 4 commands is a privilege that belongs more to the UW Midrange version (they earned it since they have a much more stable manabase to accommodate for the triple blue cost. Anyway, each deck has their strengths and weaknesses, we already have red for bolts and helixes and electrolyzes, perhaps it may be too greedy to tell our UW friends "I wanna have what you have too! 4 commands and even 4 tec edges!")
OR the mana base should be improved (I remembered Shouta's Eternal Command deck was also a 3 color deck, but check out how many basic islands he had (If I recalled correctly, it was 4), I may be wrong but I rationalized that as an adjustment made to accommodate the commands (Shouta don't punch me if I am wrong, I ain't as good as you are and I certainly can't read your mind haha, I am just guessing), then you would say shocklands, fountains and vents would do, but hey RDW and many fast aggro decks are around, perhaps simply fetching a basic island to help top up for the 3 blue is a safer way then excessively bolting yourself from shocks and fetches. I like the idea of mystic gate though :))
Mana concerns aside, 4 cryptics just ups the curve way too much, I think. Ha, I say this as I want to run 3 cryptics, 2 Revelations, and I already run 3 Restos...but still. You already need to spend 3-4 mana on Snappy+flashback on things like Remand/Bolt/Helix, so it seems very risky to have so many things that either cost 4, or pseudo-cost 4. When I'm playing this deck, I feel so powerful controlling the opening 3-4 turns, so I want to consistently have my 1cmc and 2cmc spells to carry me into the midgame where I can then safely start casting 4cmc stuff and really take control of the game. If the first counterspell I'm casting is cryptic, something's wrong.
And yet...drawing that cryptic between turns 4-6 is an absolute blowout. I just don't know. 3 seems like the perfect amount to ensure that you see at least 1 after digging and fetching a bit, without flooding your opener with so many high costing spells.
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
what do you mean by filterland? sorry for my ignorance >_> uhm, anyways, what about some kind of slayer's stronghold instead of the third tectonic edge main board?
Personally I use only 2 tec edges and I find that sufficient. Since you play 3, it may be a good idea to replace 1 of them with a slayer. I tried slayer before, and I found it a good tool against control and combo. Against control (especially blue based counter heavy decks), I flash in a tiago with no mana left or target to flashback, counter? (opponent thinks hmm he ain't flashing anything back, it's just a 2/1) Ok go. My turn, drop a slayer, battle and activate, "that's not just a 2/1 anymore, isn't it, hehe" Against Combo, casting a T2 tiago, then T3 onwards swing in with slayer greatly speeds up the clock against them, "looks like you have much lesser time to assemble your combo pieces yeah." But against creature heavy aggro, slayer is not going to really help you much, it does not increase toughness, so it ain't gonna protect geist (but eiganjo does). All in all, perhaps a singleton slayer could be worth a try, hope it works well for you
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
It's a shame Warleader's Helix (new spoiled card, 2rw: Deals 4 damage to target creature or player. You gain 4 life.) is 4 mana. If it were 3 I think I could find a home for it in here, but for 4, no way. It's competing with Resto and Cryptic, and while an 8 point life swing is actually relevant in Modern, I think I'd rather be casting Cryptic and getting some card advantage. What do you guys think?
I may be wrong, but I think that card is horrible (in constructed).
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I am sure we don't like Thrun. I guess against such a matchup without wrath, we have to speed up the aggression and start attacking the player relentlessly as soon as we can to take the opponent's life total down to burning zone, then finish it off with burn spells.
So far I haven't encountered any problem. Color screw is not a problem and I don't usually miss land drops.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
aside from wrath of god, what do you guys think about my manabase and spell pierce?
1)should i go 2x tectonic edge to maintain seachrome coast and eiganjo castle, or should i tka eout seachrome for eiganjo and maintaining 3x tectonic edge? another thing would be to go to 2x tectonic to add a filterland.. but maybe tectonic is more useful since i am expecting lots of scapeshift
IMO my suggestions (there can always be better ones from others)
1. 2 tec edges are enough, 1 eiganjo should be in to protect geist and cliques. If you are playing commands, then I would suggest a filterland or two.
3 tec edges is IMO rather over. 1 of it can even be replaced with slayer's stronghold or moorland haunt for more utility.
2. I'd go with mana leak, since pierce only targets non-creature spells. Perhaps if you are concern about opponent countermagic, but we are playing a flash speed deck (except for geist), it is better to precisely pinpoint every phase in the game and time your spells to play around countermagic, or force them to counter things at the expense of losing their turn ("hehe, you just got time walked over"). But if you are afraid of T1 inquisition or thoughtseize, honestly I acknowledge I can't deal with that (without brainstorm) (if any one has a practical way of preventing t1 targeted discard, please share) and I wouldn't even bother anymore, aside from burn, targeted discard is extremely powerful in modern (perhaps even much more powerful than countermagic), it's hard to have any solid preventive measure against that, but we have a corrective measure (not perfect but better than nothing) and that is our cantrips (which is why I play 4 electrolyze and 4 remands) if they are not discarded, they can help to provide a chance to drawing into something I want post-discard. (ie. T1 inquisition discard geist, perhaps later a remand or electro helps me draw into another geist or the remands and electros may have draw off cards from the library that I draw another geist of the top, yeahyeah I know that's just a maybe, that's better than nothing)
Ok, that is game 2 and if you are so LUCKY to have it in your opening hand (yes, I repeat the word is lucky). Or perhaps you mb it. Cool story, very cool story~
I feel like one or two targeted discard spells don't really hurt this deck much; snapcaster makes choosing targets a real challenge as you'll just get it back a couple turns later. If happen to nail Geist, well, that's annoying but certainly not enough to make this deck fall apart. If they run Thoughtseize and take your cryptic, big deal; this deck used to not run any cryptics at all. I can see an issue if they stick Lili and start annihilating your hand, but an Inquisition or two is hardly dangerous.
^ This. One or 2 discards can hardly make you lose the game, provided your deck is built correctly, and you didnt kept a crap hand.
Of course, if your hand is 4 lands, a geist, a bolt and a mana leak and they IoK your gest, then yes, you are in trouble, but im guessing you shouldnt have kept that hand in the first place.
I feel like one or two targeted discard spells don't really hurt this deck much; snapcaster makes choosing targets a real challenge as you'll just get it back a couple turns later. If happen to nail Geist, well, that's annoying but certainly not enough to make this deck fall apart. If they run Thoughtseize and take your cryptic, big deal; this deck used to not run any cryptics at all. I can see an issue if they stick Lili and start annihilating your hand, but an Inquisition or two is hardly dangerous.
Exactly. I mean I am just making guess as to a few reasons why spell pierce would be run over mana leak. As you added, we have tiago to flashback, and we have cantrips to draw on, then discard should not really hurt us that much. So I would still suggest to Iamghost to run leaks over pierce.
Hmm so if I did not see wrongly, that's 12 creatures and 4 manlands? Hmm just a question opened for everyone here: Without the mb Sphinx rev to help draw into bullets (creatures / manlands / burn etc.), wouldn't the threat density in this case be rather low? Afterall, we are not playing a pure control deck, we should want to be able to also do some consistent and considerable damage and win from there.
I mean I was thinking about this threat density issue when I saw Unwin's list, but when I saw sphinx rev, then I thought to myself "oh well, I guess that's fine then, he could just sphinx rev and draw into some creature or manland or more burn spells that may possibly in some cases win the game. Ok cool."
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
Yea, I think Seachrome is a decent choice to take out, since you have 4 colonnades. Having some basics in there is really helpful, both for bloodmoon and so you don't run out of fetch targets, or if your life is getting low and can't afford 3 life to play an uptapped land.
Yesterday I tested a bit with 2 cryptics, I think I definitely want at least 3 now. They're soooo good.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
i've been testing against my friends melira pod deck. 4x cryptic is definitely what you want. sticking a GoST on 3 followed by a Cryptic on 4, every time, is usually the nuts.
Yeah, I'm with Phoenos, the coast can be cut for a basic plains.
I might cut the falls for a filterland too, while you're add it, to up your ability to hit trips and dubs blue when in a bind.
I understand and love both remand and electrolyzes for their added draw (in fact I play them both as 4 ofs and love it haha). And despite the low threat count, Geist himself is one when resolved is so hard to be dealt with, but Lili. damnation, verdict, and honestly IMO his biggest nightmare is to be plucked out by a turn 1 inquisition etc. still deals with him. I think where sphinx rev really comes in may be in the attrition games, a good textbook example is jund, if I get lucky I sneak in a Geist with tons of countermagic and spot removal as protection in my hand, but if not then we go back and forth with each other, one for one, until we both are low on bullets and Jund is relatively better at top-decking, I guess this is the moment where sphinx rev comes in, given this is most likely late game and we both have lots of lands, end of the jund player's turn, I cast a massive sphinx rev and BAM, the stalemate is over (unless the draws were all lands, well what do you know, sometimes crap happens :() and I take game. Where incremental advantage goes back and forth in attrition games, an explosive exponential advantage is simply one effective way to decide the victor.
As for seachrome coast, I can say that I wish that there was a UR scarland, and it'd be one of your best replacement for seachrome coast and even sulfur falls (ever drew an opening hand with great spells but 2 colonades and 1 sulfur fall, one word comes to mind "damn!" haha). Anyway, I doubt we can lose the colonnades, we don't have a UR manland that is comparable with the great colonnade, fairie conclave is no treetop village, so colonnade is likely to stay, and that means we got lots of UW lands (despite the fact that a bulk of them comes into play tap) and so you made the right choice to lose the coasts.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
IMHO (just my opinion, but I know a lot of you all are gonna strongly disagree with me, hehe fair enough, you have your beliefs too, as I have mine)
I really think 4 commands is a privilege that belongs more to the UW Midrange version (they earned it since they have a much more stable manabase to accommodate for the triple blue cost. Anyway, each deck has their strengths and weaknesses, we already have red for bolts and helixes and electrolyzes, perhaps it may be too greedy to tell our UW friends "I wanna have what you have too! 4 commands and even 4 tec edges!")
OR the mana base should be improved (I remembered Shouta's Eternal Command deck was also a 3 color deck, but check out how many basic islands he had (If I recalled correctly, it was 4), I may be wrong but I rationalized that as an adjustment made to accommodate the commands (Shouta don't punch me if I am wrong, I ain't as good as you are and I certainly can't read your mind haha, I am just guessing), then you would say shocklands, fountains and vents would do, but hey RDW and many fast aggro decks are around, perhaps simply fetching a basic island to help top up for the 3 blue is a safer way then excessively bolting yourself from shocks and fetches. I like the idea of mystic gate though :))
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
Mana concerns aside, 4 cryptics just ups the curve way too much, I think. Ha, I say this as I want to run 3 cryptics, 2 Revelations, and I already run 3 Restos...but still. You already need to spend 3-4 mana on Snappy+flashback on things like Remand/Bolt/Helix, so it seems very risky to have so many things that either cost 4, or pseudo-cost 4. When I'm playing this deck, I feel so powerful controlling the opening 3-4 turns, so I want to consistently have my 1cmc and 2cmc spells to carry me into the midgame where I can then safely start casting 4cmc stuff and really take control of the game. If the first counterspell I'm casting is cryptic, something's wrong.
And yet...drawing that cryptic between turns 4-6 is an absolute blowout. I just don't know. 3 seems like the perfect amount to ensure that you see at least 1 after digging and fetching a bit, without flooding your opener with so many high costing spells.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Filterlands (ie. Mystic Gate, Twilight Mire)
Personally I use only 2 tec edges and I find that sufficient. Since you play 3, it may be a good idea to replace 1 of them with a slayer. I tried slayer before, and I found it a good tool against control and combo. Against control (especially blue based counter heavy decks), I flash in a tiago with no mana left or target to flashback, counter? (opponent thinks hmm he ain't flashing anything back, it's just a 2/1) Ok go. My turn, drop a slayer, battle and activate, "that's not just a 2/1 anymore, isn't it, hehe" Against Combo, casting a T2 tiago, then T3 onwards swing in with slayer greatly speeds up the clock against them, "looks like you have much lesser time to assemble your combo pieces yeah." But against creature heavy aggro, slayer is not going to really help you much, it does not increase toughness, so it ain't gonna protect geist (but eiganjo does). All in all, perhaps a singleton slayer could be worth a try, hope it works well for you
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I am sure we don't like Thrun. I guess against such a matchup without wrath, we have to speed up the aggression and start attacking the player relentlessly as soon as we can to take the opponent's life total down to burning zone, then finish it off with burn spells.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
So far I haven't encountered any problem. Color screw is not a problem and I don't usually miss land drops.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Island
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Plains
1 Mountain
the only change from Unwin's list is -1 Tectonic Edge +1 Mystic Gate.
IMO my suggestions (there can always be better ones from others)
1. 2 tec edges are enough, 1 eiganjo should be in to protect geist and cliques. If you are playing commands, then I would suggest a filterland or two.
3 tec edges is IMO rather over. 1 of it can even be replaced with slayer's stronghold or moorland haunt for more utility.
2. I'd go with mana leak, since pierce only targets non-creature spells. Perhaps if you are concern about opponent countermagic, but we are playing a flash speed deck (except for geist), it is better to precisely pinpoint every phase in the game and time your spells to play around countermagic, or force them to counter things at the expense of losing their turn ("hehe, you just got time walked over"). But if you are afraid of T1 inquisition or thoughtseize, honestly I acknowledge I can't deal with that (without brainstorm) (if any one has a practical way of preventing t1 targeted discard, please share) and I wouldn't even bother anymore, aside from burn, targeted discard is extremely powerful in modern (perhaps even much more powerful than countermagic), it's hard to have any solid preventive measure against that, but we have a corrective measure (not perfect but better than nothing) and that is our cantrips (which is why I play 4 electrolyze and 4 remands) if they are not discarded, they can help to provide a chance to drawing into something I want post-discard. (ie. T1 inquisition discard geist, perhaps later a remand or electro helps me draw into another geist or the remands and electros may have draw off cards from the library that I draw another geist of the top, yeahyeah I know that's just a maybe, that's better than nothing)
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
Ok, that is game 2 and if you are so LUCKY to have it in your opening hand (yes, I repeat the word is lucky). Or perhaps you mb it. Cool story, very cool story~
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Of course, if your hand is 4 lands, a geist, a bolt and a mana leak and they IoK your gest, then yes, you are in trouble, but im guessing you shouldnt have kept that hand in the first place.
Exactly. I mean I am just making guess as to a few reasons why spell pierce would be run over mana leak. As you added, we have tiago to flashback, and we have cantrips to draw on, then discard should not really hurt us that much. So I would still suggest to Iamghost to run leaks over pierce.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB