thanks everybody for advices. i am gonna stick with 2x mana leak MB, then. I am also gonna keep those 2x counterflux SB, since i am definitely too worried about scapeshift.
I am not expecting any Eggs, so i am not running anything specific against GY.
Leyline of sanctity is a very cool card, but i agree in saying you have to be very lucky to draw it first hand. And to favour this situation you have to play it 4x SB. Definitely too much space.
About manabase, prolly you're right about tectonic edge. 2x is enough. Now my only doubt is how to occupy that space: seachrome coast (1x, the one i left out to play eiganjo castle) or filter land? i don't own any filter land for the moment so saturday i am gonna go with seachrome for sure. but if you say filter land, i am gonna buy one (which one?) for the near future
Mystic gate probably. Or maybe cascade bluffs. Definitely one of the blue filter lands to help you cast cryptic.
So I recently added the red component to my Geist Midrange, which was formerly UW. I'd been running that version for a while, so I understand the basics of how the deck works, but I was hoping to get a little advice from players with a bit more experience running it. In particular, I was hoping to get specific tips for certain matchups that are common in my meta. Here's what I'm planning on running:
I really like Slayer's Stronghold and Moorland Haunt, and would love to include them, but I really don't want to cut the Tectonic Edges, and the mana base doesn't look like it can handle more than two or maybe three colorless lands. Thoughts on that? Cryptic Command has served me well in the UW version, but it seems a little slow for UWR. But it seems you guys have some good ideas brewing on how to include 2 or 3, I'd certainly like to explore that more. I've seen Counterflux on a lot of UWR boards, but I can't figure out why... Seems good against combo, sure, but... well... who's playing combo these days? No one at my LGS, anyway. Mindcensor seems like a perfect fit for this deck, but I can't decide if it's worth cutting something from my board. Ditto for Spellskite.
My metagame has a LOT of Tron. I'm not sure the exact quantities of the variants, but UW and RG are both around. There's some Dredgevine, some Living End, and one guy who plays Wbr MartyrProc every week, so the 2 Rest in Peace are golden for me. I haven't seen Eggs yet, but I know there's a guy who's testing it and I want to be prepared if he finalizes his build and starts playing it. I've seen both Melria Pod and Kiki Pod, but not in big numbers. And there's a random Boggle deck that has always been a nightmare matchup for my UW Geist (and part of the decision to switch to UWR - it feels like every game I can almost outrace him and just fall a few points short, and I figured the burn could help me there.)
I feel fairly confident against most of the field, but I was wondering if anyone could give me suggestions on tailoring my sideboard a bit better, and especially how this deck fares against Tron. As I said, it's the most common threat where I play and I have no idea how favorable or unfavorable UWR is against it.
Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer!
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I can tell you that Counterflux was not only useful against combo (storm specifically), but it helps a ton in the control matchup. In general, a control deck will always have the last word simply because it runs more counterspells; counterflux gives you the last word when it really counts.
Mindcensor was run in the original versions of this deck, but most people decided to take it out I think because while nice as a combat trick or in response to a fetch, it doesn't do enough. The 1 toughness is also a concern.
Spellskite would probably be a great inclusion, especially against Bogle, or infect. Slayer's Stronghold I'm a fan of because it makes late creature drops potent immediately, especially Geist. Moorland haunt I'm less sold on because the creature density is too low.
As far as Cryptics go, I'm content with letting the game roll into turn 5, turn 6, without really having put significant pressure on my opponent. If the opportunity presents itself where I drop Geist right on turn 3, I totally will, but if I'm more worried that they have some bomb, I'm holding mana open for Remand or some other removal. The idea is that there are so many cantrips you out tempo them simply by playing spells. Remand, Electrolyze, and Cryptic(sometimes) can all replace themselves while doing something relevant. So when the game does roll into turn 6, they have a virtually clear board and almost empty hand, while you still have a hand full of threats, and maybe a Geist on the board. The deck isn't as fast as you might think. I think a 3-of is a great inclusion for Cryptics, but it looks like you would have to sacrifice some creatures...or maybe you can just drop Izzet Charm. Not really a huge fan to be honest.
Agreed, I dont like to tap out for Geist unless I'm fairly confident my opponent doesn't have anything I'll need to counter, so i dont really start swinging until turn 5 or 6 most games either. I would love that extra late game support from Cryptics, and Izzet Charm does seem like the weakest link currently. I do really like having such a versatile answer for so cheap (making it easier to snap-back). But I guess it doesn't really do anything my other two drops don't already do better.
How's the tron matchup? Obviously with Stony Silence and Sowing salt in the board I'm pretty well prepared for it, but is it one I should be worried about? Or is it a relatively straightforward game?
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perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Awesome!! Osmanozguney has 4-0 a daily with a WUR deck featuring Geist!!
I'm very happy about this because I've tested both versions (WUR Control and geist of Saint Win) and the one with Geist is better in many more matchups... but it seems like the trend (since Trafts are quite expensive and the most recent GP featured a pure WUR control build) has been to cut them entirely. Not anymore.
-The Snares: I've always thought of them as SB cards, but it's true that when playing this deck I don't feel comfortable until I hit the 2 lands for a Remand or 4 for a Cryptic. The first turns are a bit of an uncertainty. So the inclusion of Spell Snare could solve this problems, also taking into account that they hit incredibly relevant targets like Goyfs, Snaps or counterspells. Gonna try it!!
-The creature base: Simple, but efficient, probably a very good configuration, although I'm reluctant to not run ANY Cliques.
-3 Tectonics: I find the Tron matchup a nightmare so maybe it's correct to go from 2 to 3.
-Sphinx's Revelations in SB: I love the card and it straight up wins games, but it suffers from the "Aven Mindcensor problem", which is being extremely good in some matchups (Control like Gifts, UW, mirror; and Midrange like Junk, Jund, Hatebears, etc) and very mediocre in other ones (Ultraggro like RG Gruul, combo like Twin, Tron, Living End...). Putting them in the SB seems like a nice compromise.
Things I don't really know:
-The 4 Leaks: as everybody that has read this thread knows, I'm a big advocate of Remand and most seem to have switched to a 4 of configuration because of the card draw and Time Walk properties.
However, I'm also open to try new things and 4 Leaks could be also interesting in some situations, mainly to "just counter" a Liliana or things that you definitely don't wanna see anytime soon.
I'm wary of the lack of card cycling and its uselessness lategame (especially against Tron), but who knows! I'll test it out
-High mana curve: It has also been discussed a lot, but having so many 4 mana cost cards (Cryptics and Restos) can lead to some awkward draws.
Supreme Verdicts are much, much better in almost any situation since:
a) Countering is much more prevalent than regeneration, and you actually want to resolve those wraths against opposing Geists or Tempo decks, even things like Zac Hill's Grixis Delver.
b) Not regenerating has exactly ONE competitive application that I can think of, Thrun (and maybe that fringe Troll Worship deck) and even he can be played around by forcing the opponent to tap out or tapping it with Cryptic for the alpha strike, etc.
I believe Wrath of God will become slightly better when Dragon's Maze comes out because Varolz, the Scar-Striped will see a nonzero amount of play in Melira Pod and possibly BGx Midrange. As long as he has a buddy, he'll regenerate through nonsense and Scavenge the remains on himself or another buddy.
I believe Wrath of God will become slightly better when Dragon's Maze comes out because Varolz, the Scar-Striped will see a nonzero amount of play in Melira Pod and possibly BGx Midrange. As long as he has a buddy, he'll regenerate through nonsense and Scavenge the remains on himself or another buddy.
And yet, more decks will still use counters than will use Valroz or Thrun. And in greater numbers.
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wrath will be used against aggro, so i don't think i will have to worry about it being countered.
last changes: i took out the 1x sphinx's revelation from SB... i love that card but i preferred to go 2x disenchant since spellskite and blood moon are troublesome. i can win even without sphinx, but i cannot if i don't deal with some enchantments or artifacts on time. the 1x was kinda bad because i cannot pass my game hoping to draw it. disenchant will also be useful against jund because of sword, batterskull, and all that stuff. i am thinking about playing a 1x grafdigger's cage against pod which always gives me troubles.
i think disenchant is nice. blood moon shuts down this deck cold if you don't have a counter ready for it. i do think we want a third sphinx in the side, though, for those drawn out games. sphinx just flat out wins when it hits.
Thoughts on Deputy of Acquittals in this deck? Protects Geist of Saint Traft, bounces Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique for recast as well as another 2/2 flash when needed. Probably not main board, potential sideboard option?
Edit: after thinking about it more i dislike the guy, but I am still curious on thoughts by other people.
Thoughts on Deputy of Acquittals in this deck? Protects Geist of Saint Traft, bounces Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique for recast as well as another 2/2 flash when needed. Probably not main board, potential sideboard option?
Edit: after thinking about it more i dislike the guy, but I am still curious on thoughts by other people.
I don't care for it. whitemane lion already exists and we don't use that. And what would you cut? All of our creatures are already better, and I wouldn't want to cut burn or counters for more creatures. It might work in standard but not Modern IMO.
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back from today's event. Went 2-1-2, did not top 8ed for just 1 game, i played not very well and did some mistakes. In the end, the deck performed not so badly. Without some errors i did would prolly top 8ed.
here's the final list, followed by a very brief report and some questions for you all guys.
game 1 i won 2-0 against goblin. The only problem was i could not counter his creats both because cavern and vial. but i bolted and helixed and pathed every single creature and won by colonnade. post side i entered with stony silence, disenchant, path to exile and lightning helix leaving out remands and mana leaks.
game 2 i lost 1-2 from GW aggro. MB i did well but then he sided in Thrun, rest in peace and Loxodon. I sided in 1 path, 1 helix, and the 2 wraths. took out counters. i lost from thrun and loxodon g2 and g3. Leonin arbiter t2 was nuts against me.
game 3 i don't remember. i won 2-0 easily but did not remember the deck. i think it was gw aggro maybe?
game 4 i did 1-1 against living end. here i did some mistakes since i never played against it and did not know how the deck worked. won g1 from 3-19 to 3-0 lol. did not know how to side here. g2 i lost when he was at 6 life points. we decided to draw and try to win the next one (3-1-1 was enough to top8).
game 5 i lost 1-2 from gw aggro. same as before, did cool g1 and then lost from 2x loxodon, finks, and thalia t2. he broke me a land a turn and he played those man lands 3/4 with reach so i could not win from colonnade (he broke it twice as soon as it came into play) and geist.
i can say i am kinda satisfied of the deck, because prolly if i were more experienced i could have done better. it was my second time playing it live and i started playing magic 6 months ago so i know i can only become better with time.
Things i liked:
- a GoST t3 is gg most of the times. 4x forever.
- mystic gate as been useful and i never felt like it was a bad land.
- cryptic command is cool, even though i never know if i should bounce or draw. i am always undecided. BTW 3x is the way to go, 4x is too heavy.
- cheap removals (pte, bolt) are cool
things to change (maybe?) advice needed here
- 2x mana leak MB: never used them, always sided them out
- 2x counterflux SB: never sided them in
- 2x engineered explosives SB: same as counter flux
- electrolyze: sometimes useful, sometimes not so much.
- a couple of times i got flooded when i needed the most creatures. at the end, i think i played 1x creature less than what i should have done. i had just a few threats, and sometimes i needed more. i was pretty confident going late game because i thought it would have been better for me, but i drew lands and not threaths. on the other hand, i kept hands with just one land and never had problems with them since i always drew the lands i needed.
I think my SB doubts are based on the fact there was this meta. Prolly against affinity it would have been a great SB.
Against GW aggro i missed sphinx's revelation a lot. But i am still convinced we CAN'T play it MB, it's too heavy and cheap removals did very well. Maybe i should go 4x path to exile and 4 lightning helix MB taking out 2x mana leak.
thoughts? ideas? advices?
Thoughts:
Gotta tailor to your local meta. I find mana leak extremely useful, but you obviously don't. Your local meta seems extremely aggro heavy and as such lightning helix and path to exile would come in handy quite a bit.
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back from today's event. Went 2-1-2, did not top 8ed for just 1 game, i played not very well and did some mistakes. In the end, the deck performed not so badly. Without some errors i did would prolly top 8ed.
here's the final list, followed by a very brief report and some questions for you all guys.
game 1 i won 2-0 against goblin. The only problem was i could not counter his creats both because cavern and vial. but i bolted and helixed and pathed every single creature and won by colonnade. post side i entered with stony silence, disenchant, path to exile and lightning helix leaving out remands and mana leaks.
game 2 i lost 1-2 from GW aggro. MB i did well but then he sided in Thrun, rest in peace and Loxodon. I sided in 1 path, 1 helix, and the 2 wraths. took out counters. i lost from thrun and loxodon g2 and g3. Leonin arbiter t2 was nuts against me.
game 3 i don't remember. i won 2-0 easily but did not remember the deck. i think it was gw aggro maybe?
game 4 i did 1-1 against living end. here i did some mistakes since i never played against it and did not know how the deck worked. won g1 from 3-19 to 3-0 lol. did not know how to side here. g2 i lost when he was at 6 life points. we decided to draw and try to win the next one (3-1-1 was enough to top8).
game 5 i lost 1-2 from gw aggro. same as before, did cool g1 and then lost from 2x loxodon, finks, and thalia t2. he broke me a land a turn and he played those man lands 3/4 with reach so i could not win from colonnade (he broke it twice as soon as it came into play) and geist.
i can say i am kinda satisfied of the deck, because prolly if i were more experienced i could have done better. it was my second time playing it live and i started playing magic 6 months ago so i know i can only become better with time.
Things i liked:
- a GoST t3 is gg most of the times. 4x forever.
- mystic gate as been useful and i never felt like it was a bad land.
- cryptic command is cool, even though i never know if i should bounce or draw. i am always undecided. BTW 3x is the way to go, 4x is too heavy.
- cheap removals (pte, bolt) are cool
things to change (maybe?) advice needed here
- 2x mana leak MB: never used them, always sided them out
- 2x counterflux SB: never sided them in
- 2x engineered explosives SB: same as counter flux
- electrolyze: sometimes useful, sometimes not so much.
- a couple of times i got flooded when i needed the most creatures. at the end, i think i played 1x creature less than what i should have done. i had just a few threats, and sometimes i needed more. i was pretty confident going late game because i thought it would have been better for me, but i drew lands and not threaths. on the other hand, i kept hands with just one land and never had problems with them since i always drew the lands i needed.
I think my SB doubts are based on the fact there was this meta. Prolly against affinity it would have been a great SB.
Against GW aggro i missed sphinx's revelation a lot. But i am still convinced we CAN'T play it MB, it's too heavy and cheap removals did very well. Maybe i should go 4x path to exile and 4 lightning helix MB taking out 2x mana leak.
thoughts? ideas? advices?
Overall I think the list is quite ok and probably it's a matter of practising more with the deck so that your performance can improve. UWR geist is not a hard deck to learn, but in order to fully master it can be quite an interesting challenge (ie. since it is considered a flash deck, then it is important to play through every game phase thoughtfully and time your spells precisely to maximise the value out of them. Being a versatile midrange deck, you would also need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your local meta decks, not just for sideboarding but also to be able to use your spells to strike at their weaknesses or deny them of their setup. You also need to understand how to direct the pace of the game to make it disadvantageous for your opponent, against some (especially combo decks) you need to switch to aggressive mode and crush and burn them quickly, against others you need to slow the game till they run out of gas and grind them out. etc.) Other than that, I just find 12 creatures in your deck rather "threat light", I still think Unwin was comfortable with that number because of his sphinx rev, without which I think the deck would need at least around 14 creatures.
I also think that your meta or rather your matchups seems rather aggro based (you mentioned of this GW aggro deck, that sounds interesting, can you share more about them? Is it GW hatebears? Or is it some other new brew?), that could be the main reason why mana leak was not so useful and cheap spot removal was much better, if your matchups were against tron, reanimator, jund, eggs, the mirror. delver etc. then you would find leaks to be of more use. So unless you are absolutely certain of walking into a heavy aggro meta, I would still suggest keeping at least 1-2 leaks mainboarded just in case. Electrolyze can be quite situational but at least it should able to hit most value creatures (ie. shaman, bob, tiago, clique, and most importantly lingering souls which can be quite an issue for geist unless if you have eiganjo ready etc.), but if you are walking into a meta with tons of loam lions and kird apes going around then yup it's not going to help you aside from shooting the player for 2 and drawing a card.
@IamGhost - For Thrun you might want Phantasmal Image somewhere honestly, because its one of those cards that is easy to side in and play without compromising your board with a wrath unless you felt the necessity.
The reason Im saying this is that my list is close to yours except {-1 Restoration Angel +1 Vendillion Clique (the body is very good, but Idk if I would miss the card stealing effect in that 3rd card-slot) and -1 Remand +1 Cryptic Command (I find that 4x is good for me, but I understand your position on it) } and I have thought about legendary hexproof creatures being an issue or needing an extra copy of a restoration angel/snapcaster
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
(1) mental misstep is banned. my friend laughed at me for having it in my sideboard.
(2) the 4 Snap 4 GoST 3 Angel build is >>> 4 Snap 4 GoST 1 Angel 3 Clique build. at least against Melira Pod (or even just considering who is piloting the decks). with resto i found i could keep the pressure on with GoST. with clique i was waaay to responsive. i know this is essentially flash, but we need *some* win condition. if i could get my hands on Clique i would run it in the sideboard for combo.
i think you are right about mastering it correctly. this deck offers you more than a choice a turn, and maybe they all seem fine at the moment. But there is always one that's slightly better and sometimes (ok, most of the times) the choice you make is gonna decide your victory or defeat maybe 3,4,5 turns later. This deck does not have very favourable MUs, is kinda equilibrated, so every time you need to really take the 100% from the cards you have otherwise you are gonna pay every error. the hard thing is, as i said, usually there are very big mistakes you can do, i mean, sometimes it just seems the same to cast this or that spell. But it's never, never the same. I find it hard to choose, sometimes, from t3 geist or Vendilion eot, for example, or between using snapcaster to flashback a spell or cast another copy of that very spell directly from my hand, or stuff like that.
and i prolly agree with you about creatures. The control version ran a very few creatures but was more able to lead the game where it wanted to go, being able to use safely its few threats in late game. but this is not as controllish as that version, so we prolly need more creatures. ALl of these manlands and land distruction, too, are very bad for our celestial colonnades since they aren't safe finishers anymore. i always saw them as late game finishers but the more we come to late game the more the other man lands can be used to stop them. Maybe i should add the third copy of vendilion clique ?
yeah, for sure. unofrtunately meta is very different as you can see from my previous post. top 8 was aggro, midrange, combo... there were pretty much all the most important archetypes. It's been just casuality that i found only aggro ones (besides living end). Electrolyze is there because i suffer a lot against affinity and lingering souls and that definitely saves me, plus, as you said, it's always an useful burn that helps me drawing, so it's better than izzet charm i think. i ran it in patriot delver but it's not the best of any of the 3 options it gives. there are better counters, better burns, better draw cards. so i think i am not gonna run it. i was thinking of changing mana leak for counterflux MB which seemed very useful in my testings when i sided it in (never had a chance to use it yesterday because of the matchups) but i don't want the deck to be too slow and cmc heavy.
the gw one was pretty much hatebears, with hierarch, loxodon, thalia, leonin arbiter (it killed me g2, damn it) thrun and so on.. and those man lands 3/4 with reach that did not allow me to use colonnade. I never had a problem with patriot delver against this archetype so i really never tested against it with Geist of saint win... and i prolly did wrong. BTW i think in a few days lists should be online so maybe i am gonna tell you more about top8.
It is indeed true that in UWR midrange, what we offer is a fair fight, thus it is hardly so that we have any overwhelming advantage over any matchup, and to win a fair fight we ought to play cautiously and try to squeeze out as much value as possible from every spell, also we must have a very good understanding of our opponent's decks to direct the pace of the game to their disadvantage.
GW Hatebears is very powerful in the late game (thrun and sigarda etc. and hence they try to accel it offensively with hierarch), against them preboard, do not focus too much on the board state, direct your attention more to the opponent's life total, we need to go all out aggressive, start the beat down as early as we can(drop that T3 geist if you can, if you have ample burn spells then you can drop that tiago on T2, fight without hesitation), kill that mana dork (hierarch) and deny them the accel, burn the player if possible at every end of their turn if they pass the turn or you have enough mana to burn, then take it from the sky and beat them down with airstrikes (they lack flying blockers aside from sigarda etc.) and finish them off with more burn to "STEAL" the game away from them (yes in some matchups we are thieves ;)). Here in the mid game resto angel helps to blink an attacking geist to push in the extra damage if they have landbase blockers. Also angel has the advantage of a "big butt", the 4 toughness protects her from bolt and various burn spells (from a general meta standpoint). Hence, IMO I think it would be necessary to run at least 2-3 of resto angels for her aerial combat ability, "big butt", blink for ETB recursion or to evade spot removal, combat tricks with geist.
All in all, on hindsight I believe the above mentioned aggressive line of play was why you found the matchup much easier when you were playing UWR delver (which is a faster and more aggressive UWR tempo deck with lower curve). And since the UWR deck you used is slightly more incline to the controllish side and slightly lacks the threat density, it is understandable that you would have been at a disadvantage when the games draws out too long (pass midgame) and the GW hatebear's relatively stronger late game card quality would overwhelm you. You cannot be delayed, you cannot hesitate in this matchup, and you must keep dealing damage, so you can steal this game away.
(1) mental misstep is banned. my friend laughed at me for having it in my sideboard.
(2) the 4 Snap 4 GoST 3 Angel build is >>> 4 Snap 4 GoST 1 Angel 3 Clique build. at least against Melira Pod (or even just considering who is piloting the decks). with resto i found i could keep the pressure on with GoST. with clique i was waaay to responsive. i know this is essentially flash, but we need *some* win condition. if i could get my hands on Clique i would run it in the sideboard for combo.
It is indeed true, that angel offers much more versatility to the deck, her combat tricks with geist is just beautiful.
Speaking of which, @FZA, I think this primer would need some matchup analysis to help the new and existing players have a better understanding of how to operate this deck against various matchups. I shall start the ball rolling here, everyone please feel free to add in any constructive suggestions so that we can all improve our matchup understanding. And hopefully eventually, FZA could help incorporate the fruits of all these discussions in the primer content
VS Jund (Even)
I think that are 2 ways to play this game.
1. If we can resolve a geist, then it is time to play agressively. Make sure we can keep attacking with geist, protect him, clear his path and then steal the game away.
2. If we cannot resolve geist (don't have it in the hand / it got discarded), then the game becomes more subtle and it becomes a trading game. We would then have to time our spells very precisely and squeeze out as much value as possible to out-CA them and come out on top of the trading game. Goyf, Finks, Lili and in some builds souls are the main concerns. While electrolyzes help deal with souls, shaman and Bob, we must use that mana leak and path to exile wisely against finks, goyf and lili. And remember bolt that raging ravine before it declares attacks and becomes a 4/4. Work through every phase of the game very very thoughtfully. Use Tec edges very strategically, it can protect you from raging ravine / treetop village, and it can also help you to deny them the white mana to cast souls (if they play the souls version).
Postboard: Celestial Purge helps kill a resolved lili and Olivia. Rest in Peace may hurt your Tiago, but it hurts their goyf, shaman, finks and souls. Wraths can punish the Jund player for overextending. Sulfur Elemental may be a nice tech to flash in and kill souls while pumping your angel.
VS GW Hatebear (Even):
GW Hatebears is very powerful in the late game (thrun and sigarda etc. and hence they try to accel it offensively with hierarch), against them preboard, do not focus too much on the board state, direct your attention more to the opponent's life total, we need to go all out aggressive, start the beat down as early as we can(drop that T3 geist if you can, if you have ample burn spells then you can drop that tiago on T2, fight without hesitation), kill that mana dork (hierarch) and deny them the accel, burn the player if possible at every end of their turn if they pass the turn or you have enough mana to burn, then take it from the sky and beat them down with airstrikes (they lack flying blockers aside from sigarda etc.) and finish them off with more burn. You cannot be delayed, you cannot hesitate in this matchup, and you must keep dealing damage, so you can steal this game away.
Postboard: Wrath of God kills Thrun and Sigarda and punishes them for overextending. Boros Charm can be good here to speed up the kill, sometimes perhaps that 4 damage burn or double strike is all you need to win.
VS Tron (Slightly Favorable):
Play very aggressively in this matchup and try your very best to take the opponent's life total down to "burnable" range before they establish tron, then kill them off with burn. Eiganjo castle protects against RG trons Pyroclasm. Tec Edges may help you delay them, path deals with wurmcoil engine, counter that karn. Use manlands to play around Blue Trons counterspells. Attack relentlessly.
Postboard: Aven Mindcensor slow them down. Stony Silence denies their artifacts (ie. Batterskull, Mindslaver, O stone, map and eggs etc.) from activating. Sowing Salts/molten rain for more land hate. Pithing Needle seals Karn. Negates counters the Karn and Mindslaver. Boros Charm is good in this matchup to protect geist from o stone/pyroclasm, and increase damage output.
VS RDW (Unfavorable):
IMO I hate this matchup, they just senselessly keep trying to maximize the damage math everyturn. Lightning helix is important here to slow them down (but you gotta be careful of skullcrack). Hang on, slow them down as best as you can until they run out of gas, then they are just your's for the taking.
Postboard: You can say 4 Leyline of sanctity, if you have the SB space. Timely reinforcements is magical here (just play around that skull crack), Kor Firewalker is also nice to slow them down while keeping a protected from red blocker or attacker.
Mystic gate probably. Or maybe cascade bluffs. Definitely one of the blue filter lands to help you cast cryptic.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
Other Spells:
3 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Celestial Purge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sowing Salt
2 Stony Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Tectonic Edge
Other cards I'm considering but don't have room for:
2 Cryptic Command
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Counterflux
2 Spellskite
I really like Slayer's Stronghold and Moorland Haunt, and would love to include them, but I really don't want to cut the Tectonic Edges, and the mana base doesn't look like it can handle more than two or maybe three colorless lands. Thoughts on that? Cryptic Command has served me well in the UW version, but it seems a little slow for UWR. But it seems you guys have some good ideas brewing on how to include 2 or 3, I'd certainly like to explore that more. I've seen Counterflux on a lot of UWR boards, but I can't figure out why... Seems good against combo, sure, but... well... who's playing combo these days? No one at my LGS, anyway. Mindcensor seems like a perfect fit for this deck, but I can't decide if it's worth cutting something from my board. Ditto for Spellskite.
My metagame has a LOT of Tron. I'm not sure the exact quantities of the variants, but UW and RG are both around. There's some Dredgevine, some Living End, and one guy who plays Wbr MartyrProc every week, so the 2 Rest in Peace are golden for me. I haven't seen Eggs yet, but I know there's a guy who's testing it and I want to be prepared if he finalizes his build and starts playing it. I've seen both Melria Pod and Kiki Pod, but not in big numbers. And there's a random Boggle deck that has always been a nightmare matchup for my UW Geist (and part of the decision to switch to UWR - it feels like every game I can almost outrace him and just fall a few points short, and I figured the burn could help me there.)
I feel fairly confident against most of the field, but I was wondering if anyone could give me suggestions on tailoring my sideboard a bit better, and especially how this deck fares against Tron. As I said, it's the most common threat where I play and I have no idea how favorable or unfavorable UWR is against it.
Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer!
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Mindcensor was run in the original versions of this deck, but most people decided to take it out I think because while nice as a combat trick or in response to a fetch, it doesn't do enough. The 1 toughness is also a concern.
Spellskite would probably be a great inclusion, especially against Bogle, or infect. Slayer's Stronghold I'm a fan of because it makes late creature drops potent immediately, especially Geist. Moorland haunt I'm less sold on because the creature density is too low.
As far as Cryptics go, I'm content with letting the game roll into turn 5, turn 6, without really having put significant pressure on my opponent. If the opportunity presents itself where I drop Geist right on turn 3, I totally will, but if I'm more worried that they have some bomb, I'm holding mana open for Remand or some other removal. The idea is that there are so many cantrips you out tempo them simply by playing spells. Remand, Electrolyze, and Cryptic(sometimes) can all replace themselves while doing something relevant. So when the game does roll into turn 6, they have a virtually clear board and almost empty hand, while you still have a hand full of threats, and maybe a Geist on the board. The deck isn't as fast as you might think. I think a 3-of is a great inclusion for Cryptics, but it looks like you would have to sacrifice some creatures...or maybe you can just drop Izzet Charm. Not really a huge fan to be honest.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
How's the tron matchup? Obviously with Stony Silence and Sowing salt in the board I'm pretty well prepared for it, but is it one I should be worried about? Or is it a relatively straightforward game?
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I'm very happy about this because I've tested both versions (WUR Control and geist of Saint Win) and the one with Geist is better in many more matchups... but it seems like the trend (since Trafts are quite expensive and the most recent GP featured a pure WUR control build) has been to cut them entirely. Not anymore.
Here's the list:
4 Snapcaster Mage 28.80
4 Geist of Saint Traft 106.40
3 Restoration Angel 57.00
4 Mana Leak 0.12
4 Lightning Bolt 0.32
4 Cryptic Command 64.76
3 Electrolyze 2.10
3 Lightning Helix 1.05
3 Path to Exile 12.33
2 Spell Snare 6.16
4 Celestial Colonnade 19.48
4 Arid Mesa 32.80
3 Tectonic Edge 0.81
2 Hallowed Fountain 7.68
2 Island 0.04
2 Sulfur Falls 4.40
2 Steam Vents 6.94
1 Sacred Foundry 3.62
1 Plains 0.02
1 Mountain 0.02
3 Spellskite 23.10
3 Aven Mindcensor 7.53
2 Supreme Verdict 4.58
2 Sphinx's Revelation 71.76
2 Celestial Purge
Things I like about the list:
-The Snares: I've always thought of them as SB cards, but it's true that when playing this deck I don't feel comfortable until I hit the 2 lands for a Remand or 4 for a Cryptic. The first turns are a bit of an uncertainty. So the inclusion of Spell Snare could solve this problems, also taking into account that they hit incredibly relevant targets like Goyfs, Snaps or counterspells. Gonna try it!!
-The creature base: Simple, but efficient, probably a very good configuration, although I'm reluctant to not run ANY Cliques.
-3 Tectonics: I find the Tron matchup a nightmare so maybe it's correct to go from 2 to 3.
-Sphinx's Revelations in SB: I love the card and it straight up wins games, but it suffers from the "Aven Mindcensor problem", which is being extremely good in some matchups (Control like Gifts, UW, mirror; and Midrange like Junk, Jund, Hatebears, etc) and very mediocre in other ones (Ultraggro like RG Gruul, combo like Twin, Tron, Living End...). Putting them in the SB seems like a nice compromise.
Things I don't really know:
-The 4 Leaks: as everybody that has read this thread knows, I'm a big advocate of Remand and most seem to have switched to a 4 of configuration because of the card draw and Time Walk properties.
However, I'm also open to try new things and 4 Leaks could be also interesting in some situations, mainly to "just counter" a Liliana or things that you definitely don't wanna see anytime soon.
I'm wary of the lack of card cycling and its uselessness lategame (especially against Tron), but who knows! I'll test it out
-High mana curve: It has also been discussed a lot, but having so many 4 mana cost cards (Cryptics and Restos) can lead to some awkward draws.
Cheers!
Supreme Verdicts are much, much better in almost any situation since:
a) Countering is much more prevalent than regeneration, and you actually want to resolve those wraths against opposing Geists or Tempo decks, even things like Zac Hill's Grixis Delver.
b) Not regenerating has exactly ONE competitive application that I can think of, Thrun (and maybe that fringe Troll Worship deck) and even he can be played around by forcing the opponent to tap out or tapping it with Cryptic for the alpha strike, etc.
Other than that, seems like a fine list.
And yet, more decks will still use counters than will use Valroz or Thrun. And in greater numbers.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
i think disenchant is nice. blood moon shuts down this deck cold if you don't have a counter ready for it. i do think we want a third sphinx in the side, though, for those drawn out games. sphinx just flat out wins when it hits.
Edit: after thinking about it more i dislike the guy, but I am still curious on thoughts by other people.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I don't care for it. whitemane lion already exists and we don't use that. And what would you cut? All of our creatures are already better, and I wouldn't want to cut burn or counters for more creatures. It might work in standard but not Modern IMO.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel (-2 angel +3 clique)
Spells - 23
4 Cryptic Command (proxy)
4 Mana Leak (-2 leak +2 remand)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Electrolyze
3 Path to Exile (-1 path)
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Sowing Salt
2 Negate
2 Celestial Purge (+1 helix)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mental Mistep (+1 path)
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Thoughts:
Gotta tailor to your local meta. I find mana leak extremely useful, but you obviously don't. Your local meta seems extremely aggro heavy and as such lightning helix and path to exile would come in handy quite a bit.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Overall I think the list is quite ok and probably it's a matter of practising more with the deck so that your performance can improve. UWR geist is not a hard deck to learn, but in order to fully master it can be quite an interesting challenge (ie. since it is considered a flash deck, then it is important to play through every game phase thoughtfully and time your spells precisely to maximise the value out of them. Being a versatile midrange deck, you would also need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your local meta decks, not just for sideboarding but also to be able to use your spells to strike at their weaknesses or deny them of their setup. You also need to understand how to direct the pace of the game to make it disadvantageous for your opponent, against some (especially combo decks) you need to switch to aggressive mode and crush and burn them quickly, against others you need to slow the game till they run out of gas and grind them out. etc.) Other than that, I just find 12 creatures in your deck rather "threat light", I still think Unwin was comfortable with that number because of his sphinx rev, without which I think the deck would need at least around 14 creatures.
I also think that your meta or rather your matchups seems rather aggro based (you mentioned of this GW aggro deck, that sounds interesting, can you share more about them? Is it GW hatebears? Or is it some other new brew?), that could be the main reason why mana leak was not so useful and cheap spot removal was much better, if your matchups were against tron, reanimator, jund, eggs, the mirror. delver etc. then you would find leaks to be of more use. So unless you are absolutely certain of walking into a heavy aggro meta, I would still suggest keeping at least 1-2 leaks mainboarded just in case. Electrolyze can be quite situational but at least it should able to hit most value creatures (ie. shaman, bob, tiago, clique, and most importantly lingering souls which can be quite an issue for geist unless if you have eiganjo ready etc.), but if you are walking into a meta with tons of loam lions and kird apes going around then yup it's not going to help you aside from shooting the player for 2 and drawing a card.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
The reason Im saying this is that my list is close to yours except {-1 Restoration Angel +1 Vendillion Clique (the body is very good, but Idk if I would miss the card stealing effect in that 3rd card-slot) and -1 Remand +1 Cryptic Command (I find that 4x is good for me, but I understand your position on it) } and I have thought about legendary hexproof creatures being an issue or needing an extra copy of a restoration angel/snapcaster
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
(1) mental misstep is banned. my friend laughed at me for having it in my sideboard.
(2) the 4 Snap 4 GoST 3 Angel build is >>> 4 Snap 4 GoST 1 Angel 3 Clique build. at least against Melira Pod (or even just considering who is piloting the decks). with resto i found i could keep the pressure on with GoST. with clique i was waaay to responsive. i know this is essentially flash, but we need *some* win condition. if i could get my hands on Clique i would run it in the sideboard for combo.
It is indeed true that in UWR midrange, what we offer is a fair fight, thus it is hardly so that we have any overwhelming advantage over any matchup, and to win a fair fight we ought to play cautiously and try to squeeze out as much value as possible from every spell, also we must have a very good understanding of our opponent's decks to direct the pace of the game to their disadvantage.
GW Hatebears is very powerful in the late game (thrun and sigarda etc. and hence they try to accel it offensively with hierarch), against them preboard, do not focus too much on the board state, direct your attention more to the opponent's life total, we need to go all out aggressive, start the beat down as early as we can(drop that T3 geist if you can, if you have ample burn spells then you can drop that tiago on T2, fight without hesitation), kill that mana dork (hierarch) and deny them the accel, burn the player if possible at every end of their turn if they pass the turn or you have enough mana to burn, then take it from the sky and beat them down with airstrikes (they lack flying blockers aside from sigarda etc.) and finish them off with more burn to "STEAL" the game away from them (yes in some matchups we are thieves ;)). Here in the mid game resto angel helps to blink an attacking geist to push in the extra damage if they have landbase blockers. Also angel has the advantage of a "big butt", the 4 toughness protects her from bolt and various burn spells (from a general meta standpoint). Hence, IMO I think it would be necessary to run at least 2-3 of resto angels for her aerial combat ability, "big butt", blink for ETB recursion or to evade spot removal, combat tricks with geist.
All in all, on hindsight I believe the above mentioned aggressive line of play was why you found the matchup much easier when you were playing UWR delver (which is a faster and more aggressive UWR tempo deck with lower curve). And since the UWR deck you used is slightly more incline to the controllish side and slightly lacks the threat density, it is understandable that you would have been at a disadvantage when the games draws out too long (pass midgame) and the GW hatebear's relatively stronger late game card quality would overwhelm you. You cannot be delayed, you cannot hesitate in this matchup, and you must keep dealing damage, so you can steal this game away.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
It is indeed true, that angel offers much more versatility to the deck, her combat tricks with geist is just beautiful.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
VS Jund (Even)
I think that are 2 ways to play this game.
1. If we can resolve a geist, then it is time to play agressively. Make sure we can keep attacking with geist, protect him, clear his path and then steal the game away.
2. If we cannot resolve geist (don't have it in the hand / it got discarded), then the game becomes more subtle and it becomes a trading game. We would then have to time our spells very precisely and squeeze out as much value as possible to out-CA them and come out on top of the trading game. Goyf, Finks, Lili and in some builds souls are the main concerns. While electrolyzes help deal with souls, shaman and Bob, we must use that mana leak and path to exile wisely against finks, goyf and lili. And remember bolt that raging ravine before it declares attacks and becomes a 4/4. Work through every phase of the game very very thoughtfully. Use Tec edges very strategically, it can protect you from raging ravine / treetop village, and it can also help you to deny them the white mana to cast souls (if they play the souls version).
Postboard: Celestial Purge helps kill a resolved lili and Olivia. Rest in Peace may hurt your Tiago, but it hurts their goyf, shaman, finks and souls. Wraths can punish the Jund player for overextending. Sulfur Elemental may be a nice tech to flash in and kill souls while pumping your angel.
VS GW Hatebear (Even):
GW Hatebears is very powerful in the late game (thrun and sigarda etc. and hence they try to accel it offensively with hierarch), against them preboard, do not focus too much on the board state, direct your attention more to the opponent's life total, we need to go all out aggressive, start the beat down as early as we can(drop that T3 geist if you can, if you have ample burn spells then you can drop that tiago on T2, fight without hesitation), kill that mana dork (hierarch) and deny them the accel, burn the player if possible at every end of their turn if they pass the turn or you have enough mana to burn, then take it from the sky and beat them down with airstrikes (they lack flying blockers aside from sigarda etc.) and finish them off with more burn. You cannot be delayed, you cannot hesitate in this matchup, and you must keep dealing damage, so you can steal this game away.
Postboard: Wrath of God kills Thrun and Sigarda and punishes them for overextending. Boros Charm can be good here to speed up the kill, sometimes perhaps that 4 damage burn or double strike is all you need to win.
VS Tron (Slightly Favorable):
Play very aggressively in this matchup and try your very best to take the opponent's life total down to "burnable" range before they establish tron, then kill them off with burn. Eiganjo castle protects against RG trons Pyroclasm. Tec Edges may help you delay them, path deals with wurmcoil engine, counter that karn. Use manlands to play around Blue Trons counterspells. Attack relentlessly.
Postboard: Aven Mindcensor slow them down. Stony Silence denies their artifacts (ie. Batterskull, Mindslaver, O stone, map and eggs etc.) from activating. Sowing Salts/molten rain for more land hate. Pithing Needle seals Karn. Negates counters the Karn and Mindslaver. Boros Charm is good in this matchup to protect geist from o stone/pyroclasm, and increase damage output.
VS RDW (Unfavorable):
IMO I hate this matchup, they just senselessly keep trying to maximize the damage math everyturn. Lightning helix is important here to slow them down (but you gotta be careful of skullcrack). Hang on, slow them down as best as you can until they run out of gas, then they are just your's for the taking.
Postboard: You can say 4 Leyline of sanctity, if you have the SB space. Timely reinforcements is magical here (just play around that skull crack), Kor Firewalker is also nice to slow them down while keeping a protected from red blocker or attacker.
Ok, more to come Please feel free to add on.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge