Bloodbraid elf into Kolaghan's command is just such a beating against this deck. I feel like I'm back to the drawing board.
@Painseer
Yeah that line is pretty powerful against us, but that's why I really like Welding Jar right now (I've also been trying a maindeck Spellskite), though if you're on the planeswalker-heavy version, I'm not sure you can afford to slot Welding Jars in the main as easily/effectively as the more artifact-heavy version does. Post board Padeem has been pretty good for me, though admittedly I've only faced 1x Jund deck with BBE so far since it's been unbanned. I'm also wondering if Padeem is the most reliable thing against them if they keep/bring in Pulse and LOTV. I guess you could also try to Pithing Needle LOTV, but then this all starts to seem like a lot of work. Thoughts anyone?
@OFGTWKAthing: interesting insights! Specific points:
RE: Accelerants and stuff. Looking back to our brewing history, I believe it's fair to say that most players leaning in too heavily on over-the-top accelerants (except @Boomforest) usually back off as it accentuates a glass-canon aspect to our deck, and that's not how we do best. ie. Über-explosive starts don't make up for all the «air» (late card disadvantage) in the deck, with such configurations.
RE: Tezz the Seeker. «This dude's potential» : I am not seeing it. He's an extra tutor straight to the battlefield, great! But besides that? I agree with @Racing089 that his +1 might as well read «Do nothing this turn» in most of our builds, unfortunately. Maybe for the Lantern hybrids as they use actually tapping artifacts? But what do you see in him? Beatdown ultimate? I believe Thopter swarm'ing - Little Tezz minus and Ult do this just better. I'll bet a looney that Jace is just better use of these slots anyways.
RE: Excavators etc. I like this approach very much. (Perhaps) heading into a Tron-heavy meta, I have to remind people that not too long ago I had come up with a Tezzerator build and SB plan that had like 75% win rate against Tron. It might be time to revisit it's principles. This idea of a green transformational SB could perhaps even improve the build. Digging up the decklist for reference :
OUT:
4x Fatal Push
3x Collective Brutality
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Relic of Progenitus
NOTE: Playing it out, Pentad Prisms and suiting them up with Tezz's -1 on Turn 3 while attacking their hand and GQ'ing the hell away at their lands are the cornerstone of this strategy.
/edit: lol wow, now that I look at it a year later, there's so much room for improvement (and new cards!) here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
1.) Witchbane Orb is sort of a meta call. It is excellent for locking the game up against burn and Scapeshift. I routinely use it to lock out planeswalker ultimates since most target a player. Witchbane Orb also keeps your opponent from bolting your planeswalkers.
2.) I really like the 2 Ensnaring Bridge. With 3 copies of Whir of Invention it means we have 5 effective copies when we need it. Once you get beyond 4 effective copies there are diminishing returns. You never want to draw two but always want one.
3.) It is mostly bringing the curve down. I typically ran 3 Tezzeret before the JTMS unban so I am plus one 4 mana planeswalker from where I use to be. I started with a 3/2 split but holding 2-3 four mana planeswalkers in your opening hand is really bad against most of the field.
4.) I am of the opinion that the combo is overlooked. I win an absurd amount of games by sticking the combo in game 1 and I want to find it ASAP. I have even considered a 4/3 and a 4/2 split but much like my Ensnaring Bridge argument you never want to draw the second one.
5.) Death’s Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Tasigur the Golden Fang, Kitesail Freebooter, Dark Confidant, Grim Flayer. If I am playing a kill spell in my deck it needs to be able to hit all of these guys and Executioner’s Capsule can’t.
@dustrycrumbz:
That is basically it when comes to the planeswalker choices. Drawing multiple Tezzerert’s is worse than Tezzerets and Jaces. Tezzeret is a much better proactive play but once the board is locked down JTMS is WAY better. You typically don’t have 10 artifacts when you play Tezzeret so you spend 3-5 turns digging into more artifacts before you ultimate. Meanwhile you are vulnerable to artifact hate coming off the top of the opponent’s deck. JTMS insulates you from those draws. He wins more cleanly than Tezzeret from a locked up board state, but more slowly.
About the Padeem discussion. I am still early in testing this card. I never liked it costing 4 mana and being a creature but I thought I would try it given the meta is likely to become more grindy. I’m not sure about this card yet but the best part about it is that it eats a maelstrom pulse. It would be very good in the Jund matchup but when it is our only creature it is susceptible to lotv edict.
@Xatrith:
Congrats on the great run!
I play 3 sideboard sweepers almost entirely because of humans. I bring in all of my spot removal as well. It is a hard matchup for sure.
How did sideboard CoV and Trinisphere perform for you? What about KCI?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I think Padeem has always been a fine SB card and is only getting better. He says no to bolt, which is on the rise. He can block BBE on turn 4 and regain value lost the next turn.
Agree on at least 2 sweepers in the board. Tireless tracker seems to be everywhere these days, and go-wide strategies should be popular in the new meta.
@dustycrumbz Thx for your comments. Starting with the black mana part : i have cut the swamp because i have been unimpressed by the ability to fetch for it or to get it when i get ghost quartered/ path to exiled. When i had two lilianas main deck i jammed the Overgrown tomb in but now i'm pretty sure he is not needed at all. I'll switch it back for an other blue source as soon as i can.
For the spire/glimmervoid part : it was there for main purpose of testing both. I've not been blown out often while playing glimmervoid but it happened one or two times while testing. The spire is fine too, it's not often that the 1 hp cost if really impact-full. Still i'm unsure of which one is better.
@racing089 Chalice has been nearly useless because i didn't encounter decks that are wrecked by it (like living end). When i got paired against affinity i didn't draw it while on the play and sided it out for the draw. Still i managed to play it against burn on the play and caught a bolt in their hand. It was a bit low to only get one card but it felt nice having that safety belt tho. Trinisphere, well i saw no storm and missed the opportunity to use it against Ad Nauseam. For KCI, i'm now sure that it is really better than Sieve after the swap of Moxes for Pentad Prisms. I would say it's trully better despite giving a turn more to opponent to find ways out when played on your turn. The times when you can just resolve whir and put victory out of reach for your opponent are just really too much value for Sieve to compete.
Hey Guys, First time posting on this from. I have been playing modern for about a year now and float between Affinity and KCI, really I just like artifacts. I have tried fitting Tezzeret into KCI, but it just don't work well. But luckily I found this neat deck! I tried mixing it up to be a bit more to my play style, but I would love some advice.
I am mainly interested in:
1) the land base, can I run more spires and Glimmevoids?
2) how good is the crucible/ghost quarter plan?
3) are counter spells worth it in the side board/main deck?
4) how do I decide Thoughtseize vs Inquisition vs Collective Brutality and the correct numbers of each?
and any other tips and advice.
Thanks! I love this deck idea and this thread behind it. It is right up my ally!
@radouf Where I saw Tezzeret shine was in the Meltiin list he won the Modern challenge with a few months ago. It was geared up to kill everything in sight with tons of one CMC Discard, 4 Brutalities, 3 Damnations, 4 Lillies and when the game had hit the wobbly midpoint big Tezzeret would come down, grab a bridge, then grab a welding jar, then welding jar. At that point you usually had a lilly/little tez/azcanta and could bury the game. I won several times by ultimating big tez and ticking down lilly on myself to sac my bridge to attack for the win. Sometimes I would get out-ground by snapcaster with cryptic and kolaghan's command - but I think meltiin's list with jaces over some number of tezzerets is worth a look.
@racing089 I agree that having thopter/sword heavy game one is a seriously good position in the meta. Being able to side into a grind plan that doesn't activate and artifact in game two and then shuffling your whole sideboard in g3 so they're guessing how to side would be pretty magical. I'll try a list like that tomorrow and report back. I think Meloku could be a very potent answer to the stony problem.
@DegenerateEE I'm not an expert here but as i read the thread it seems like the ratio of discard varies a lot between players. It's a matter of taste. And for the counterspells it seems like the consensus is : no counter spell maindeck.
I am new to Modern and am going to start playing Modern at a new LGS that has consistent Modern FNMs and tournaments because the one I currently go to only has Standard and Limited for prizes.
I am not new to Tezzeretor as an archetype though because I have played it in some form since he came out in MBS.
I am going against an unknown meta (only deck that I know will be there is my friend that's going to come with me on GB Elves), so I have a few thoughts and questions based on the current iteration of my list.
I have CB in main over TS in the side since I run 3 Tezz, Foundry, and Opal (discard outlet) and I'm not sure how heavy I need to go on removal yet. I am also considering switching an IoK with a TS in the side.
I am currently trying 3/2/2 Foundry/Sword/Bridge but I am not sure if I want a third Bridge or Foundry.
About a year ago I sold a bunch of staples because I didn't think I would be able to play Modern competitively (rip shocks, fetches, lilis, jaces, etc.) so my mana isn't the best. I am willing to buy another 2 Polluted Delta and any relatively cheap lands. I already have another Verdant Catacombs and another Watery Grave.
I think CTP is an obvious cut since it enters tapped even though it is really strong (sans Fatal Push at least). What about Darksteel Citadel? Glimmervoid, more Spires, and Ghost Quarter are also things I've considered adding.
I partially consider the sideboard Welding Jar a flex spot too, though I think it is going to be staying in with the amount of Kcommand likely incoming to the format.
Finally, my main question: against an unknown meta, which hate artifacts are going to be my best bet to try mainboard before I can see what the field looks like?
Hey Guys, First time posting on this from. I have been playing modern for about a year now and float between Affinity and KCI, really I just like artifacts. I have tried fitting Tezzeret into KCI, but it just don't work well. But luckily I found this neat deck! I tried mixing it up to be a bit more to my play style, but I would love some advice.
I am mainly interested in:
1) the land base, can I run more spires and Glimmevoids?
2) how good is the crucible/ghost quarter plan?
3) are counter spells worth it in the side board/main deck?
4) how do I decide Thoughtseize vs Inquisition vs Collective Brutality and the correct numbers of each?
and any other tips and advice.
Thanks! I love this deck idea and this thread behind it. It is right up my ally!
@DegenerateEE
Hi there! So the list you're on looks similar to the adjusted shell I've been working with, so I'll shed some insight on my thought process.
1) I noticed you cut a Bauble, a Search, and a Bridge for a 3rd Tez, a KCI, and a maindeck Witchbane Orb. I believe the typical shells (of the higher artifact count/heavier thopter sword plan) previously played 20-21 lands and 3, maybe 4x 4-cmc spells at the top end. Your changes have cut a 0, 2, and a 3 for 3x 4-cmc spells, putting your 4-cmc spell count to 5. At this point I'd highly suggest playing more lands (probably closer to 21-22) if you're set on a top end this high. Unless one of your 4-mana spells is Bottled Cloister, you're more likely to run into issues with clunky hands when you need to be at 0 for bridge locks. The deck I ran cut the 20th land because I swapped out the 3rd Tez and something else for 2x Search (lowering my top end to 2x 4-cmc spells but keeping the non-artifact wincon count to 4), since Search acts as a pseudo walker/wincon but has a low cost to reduce the number of clunky hands/draws. I like the idea behind the Lantern/Thopter hybrid that people have been playing but since I wanted to test a deck that's more all-in on Thopter sword/Tezzeret, Search for Azcanta plays a similar role by filtering our draws like the mill rocks do (which increases our overall card quality/prevents drawing into bad hands when we're relying on bridge), then flips into an additional mana source to dump any extra spells stuck in our hand later (and ability can hit combo/lock pieces to close the game if we haven't already). I think KCI could be cut (for curve considerations) since you also have Time Sieve (I'd chose 1 or the other since both fill the same role). However, if you prefer KCI, I'd suggest looking to the shell that Xatrith has been on.
2) I've played a lot of games with GQ (with and without crucible) against Tron and I have to say, I've lost enough times that I don't think it's worth it (a little too slow, not quite consistent enough for my liking). You can certainly "get them", especially in tandem with surgical, but this is only half the battle. Plus GQ just increases your density of non-blue mana sources in a deck that has a relatively low land count and a triple blue spell you want to snap off as quickly/consistently as possible, as well as being a land you don't want to see when being able to cast a turn 1 serum visions could make/break being able to keep/mulligan. GQ is certainly good, but it's not like we have a super fast clock outside of a turn 3 Tez + turn prism into a 5/5. If that's the line we take, that means you weren't able to snap off GQ until turn 4 (unless you had a Mox), at which point it could be too late. Alternatively, if you used GQ before turn 3, you're down a land drop and you don't have the clock needed to pressure a deck like Tron, and Crucible runs a similar risk. It's good when Tron doesn't have a good hand and you have a great one - the problem being that Tron has way more consistency in getting to turn 3 Tron + cast a wincon than you do of something like GQ and 2 more lands + Prism + Mox + another 0-1 mana artifact + Tez/Crucible. I think Tron is just a bad matchup and since we have a plan and can certainly beat Tron when things line up favorably for us, your efforts should be focused towards beating close/winnable matchups to make your overall tournament win percentages that much higher, but that's just me.
3) Rule of thumb with ensnaring bridge decks - If you play bridge, don't play reactive spells that have the potential to rot in your hand, ie counterspells.
4) This depends on the shell you want to play. If you're playing the shell I've been on, I aim to cut off portions of my opponent's deck through the combo/prison plan rather than trade 1-for-1. Brutality is nice because it allows us to both disrupt early to pave the way for a turn 3 spell like bridge, while also dumping cards that would otherwise prevent us from getting hellbent for bridge as quickly as possible. I also haven't felt the need for more hand disruption maindeck because I personally prefer simply having a higher density/redundancy of impactful spells. I'd rather just be holding a hand of something like Foundry, whir, bridge, search when my opponent takes THEIR turn Thoughtseizing me and/or knowing I have a higher likelihood of recovering from a timely disruption spell through followup draw steps.
However, if you're leaning towards wanting to play more impactful non-artifact control elements like more planeswalkers/wincons that come down mid-late game, then I think you almost have to be maindecking cards like IOK/Thoughtseize in order to pave the way for these bigger spells. Again, it really depends on how you plan to focus your G1 gameplan and which shell you prefer in the new meta. I've played countless versions of Tezzerator/various control decks over the years and I've just come to be more partial to slanting heavier towards the low to the ground, all-in thopter sword/bridge gameplan. Not saying the planeswalker decks aren't good by any means (it's nice being insulated more against artifact/GY hate), I've just personally found more success in being as focused as possible towards my G1 gameplan (assembling the combo/bridge lock).
@dustycrumbz Thx for your comments. Starting with the black mana part : i have cut the swamp because i have been unimpressed by the ability to fetch for it or to get it when i get ghost quartered/ path to exiled. When i had two lilianas main deck i jammed the Overgrown tomb in but now i'm pretty sure he is not needed at all. I'll switch it back for an other blue source as soon as i can.
For the spire/glimmervoid part : it was there for main purpose of testing both. I've not been blown out often while playing glimmervoid but it happened one or two times while testing. The spire is fine too, it's not often that the 1 hp cost if really impact-full. Still i'm unsure of which one is better.
@Xatrith Thanks for your insight! I've had the same sentiments towards the swamp in testing so far so I think I'm going to follow suit and play the 3rd Island over the 1st Swamp.
I've also come to the same conclusion on Glimmervoid vs Spire, but I'm actually going to try a second Breeding Pool and just 1 Spire for now (again, I'm running less lands than you since my curve is lower, and as of now, I can't justify cutting any other land before adding more Glimmervoid/Spires). I could maybe stay at only 2x Basics and play 2x Spires, but IDK, that sounds iffy to me. Second Breeding Pool might hurt too much, so we'll see.
I am new to Modern and am going to start playing Modern at a new LGS that has consistent Modern FNMs and tournaments because the one I currently go to only has Standard and Limited for prizes.
I am not new to Tezzeretor as an archetype though because I have played it in some form since he came out in MBS.
I am going against an unknown meta (only deck that I know will be there is my friend that's going to come with me on GB Elves), so I have a few thoughts and questions based on the current iteration of my list.
I have CB in main over TS in the side since I run 3 Tezz, Foundry, and Opal (discard outlet) and I'm not sure how heavy I need to go on removal yet. I am also considering switching an IoK with a TS in the side.
I am currently trying 3/2/2 Foundry/Sword/Bridge but I am not sure if I want a third Bridge or Foundry.
About a year ago I sold a bunch of staples because I didn't think I would be able to play Modern competitively (rip shocks, fetches, lilis, jaces, etc.) so my mana isn't the best. I am willing to buy another 2 Polluted Delta and any relatively cheap lands. I already have another Verdant Catacombs and another Watery Grave.
I think CTP is an obvious cut since it enters tapped even though it is really strong (sans Fatal Push at least). What about Darksteel Citadel? Glimmervoid, more Spires, and Ghost Quarter are also things I've considered adding.
I partially consider the sideboard Welding Jar a flex spot too, though I think it is going to be staying in with the amount of Kcommand likely incoming to the format.
Finally, my main question: against an unknown meta, which hate artifacts are going to be my best bet to try mainboard before I can see what the field looks like?
Thanks again guys
@superbruce56
- In regards to IOK vs TS main - If you're only playing 3x of these spells total, I think you play all of one or the other. You should strive for consistency and make the call based on a meta prediction. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up to have a higher chance of drawing the wrong one when you need the other. Keeping 3x IOK is probably fine here.
- In this version, I also think you should keep the 3/2/2 split as you have it now.
- CTP isn't really great, as it comes in tapped as you mentioned, but also costs 3 mana to activate when you'll probably need the mana for something else and also won't be swinging behind a bridge. It's good when you need a mana sink and want to get aggressive, but that's not really where this deck aims to position itself.
- EE comes in/out of my board as well, but I've recently cut it since it could hurt more than help, especially if you draw it later but already set up thopter sword (2), or a bridge lock (3). EE on 1 can be good, and EE prior to your own board development is certainly fine, but I didn't really like it's potential of putting me in a tight spot more often than not. I have some flex slots in my board as well and am constantly adjusting, trying to find a collection of post-board gameplans I like, but I'm ultimately just waiting to see what the new meta looks like as the dust begins to settle.
- I like Welding Jar main, but it has a slightly higher potential to be air since you're running a lower density of artifacts. But it's not like you've cut the density of artifacts by a significant amount, and when it's good it's really good.
- For now, I have 1 Pithing Needle and 1 GY cantrip in my maindeck flex slots. There were a lot of close considerations, but Pithing Needles seems good while a lot of people are still hyped on Jace (many of these decks won't have a way to remove it G1), and I wanted Spellbomb/Relic over Cage since even at their worst, they'll still replace themselves. I understand the pros and cons of Relic over Spellbomb, but I personally decided to choose Spellbomb since my deck is playing 2x Search. Again, I like to eliminate any amount of potential of forcing myself into tight spots wherever I can help it. I might try Relic for a while in order to see if my initial reasonings can be justified or not.
And a bunch of discard and removal. There are a ton of home brews floating around my LGS and I think everyone is spooked from/stoked on Jace, so it could be a good moment to sneak in with a brain dead thopter build.
in real life I had ground my jund opponent down to one card in hand game one, I had bridge, search for azcanta, thopter sword, 6 thopters and 9 life. In the course of two turns he hit bloodbraids into Kcommand/abrupt and a bob flipped a pulse and he exactsie killed me with only search for azcanta left in play.
In summation, I think for now the artifact dream is dead.
perhaps we need to up the amount of protection we're playing in the main, 2 jars plus a skite, with padeem in the board? bloodbraid into Kcommand is a corner case though and probably wont happen all that often, it sucks but thats just jund doing jund things. guess junding people out is a legitimate choice again
I agree, jund will be more common than before, but it is still a corner case. It's unfortunate when things fall apart like that but to put things in perspective, I won a game last night with an early bridge and 2 jars, and my opponent had abrupt decay and by the time he saw his first ancient grudge, I had hit academy ruins, cast Spellskite, and just had him locked. Super lucky on my end, but I think we're far from throwing in the towel. So many decisions/opposing actions can be made leading up to bad situations against BBE jund (what each player's draws are, decisions with whir/serum visions, etc.), we just might have to adjust a bit.
When you are running 4 bloodbraid and 3 kcommand it's not a corner case. Decks are going to be built to take advantage of that interaction because it's amazing. I doubt that jund decks will settle for less than 4 and 4.
I recently took down two BBE Jund decks back to back with relative ease. Thopter/Sword just smashes them. You don't even need to keep it. Just one turn with it. You simply got unlucky. He hit three interaction pieces of his maybe 6 available? 6/60 is 10%. 10% on three consecutive looks is 1/10*1/10*1/10 (roughly, it changes slightly although not much) = 1/1000 or .1%
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Well gang, you don't lack for optimism. I think BBE is going to put downward pressure on any sub-4cmc permanent, just like it did when it was in standard and when Kcommand was just a glimmer in Maro's eye.
yep, thats mine and my friend's list. We have been jamming it since jace got unbanned, managed to 5-0 this league and have been getting a lot of 4-1s and 3-2s.
We played straight ub, esper, and sultai with the best results coming from sultai. Decay is a flexible enough answer for stony silence as well as many other random problem permanents in modern. We are still trying to figure out a perfect sideboard, but I will be lurking around if yall want to chat.
For those who love thirst, sorry it has been cut. Current list is -1 Jar, -2 thirst, -1 relic, +3 serum visions +1 nihil spellbomb main. Sideboard is up to 3 decays, - padeem. There should be more brutalities in the board, but they are wayyyy to expensive online.
@Painseer
Yeah that line is pretty powerful against us, but that's why I really like Welding Jar right now (I've also been trying a maindeck Spellskite), though if you're on the planeswalker-heavy version, I'm not sure you can afford to slot Welding Jars in the main as easily/effectively as the more artifact-heavy version does. Post board Padeem has been pretty good for me, though admittedly I've only faced 1x Jund deck with BBE so far since it's been unbanned. I'm also wondering if Padeem is the most reliable thing against them if they keep/bring in Pulse and LOTV. I guess you could also try to Pithing Needle LOTV, but then this all starts to seem like a lot of work. Thoughts anyone?
@OFGTWKAthing: interesting insights! Specific points:
RE: Accelerants and stuff. Looking back to our brewing history, I believe it's fair to say that most players leaning in too heavily on over-the-top accelerants (except @Boomforest) usually back off as it accentuates a glass-canon aspect to our deck, and that's not how we do best. ie. Über-explosive starts don't make up for all the «air» (late card disadvantage) in the deck, with such configurations.
RE: Tezz the Seeker. «This dude's potential» : I am not seeing it. He's an extra tutor straight to the battlefield, great! But besides that? I agree with @Racing089 that his +1 might as well read «Do nothing this turn» in most of our builds, unfortunately. Maybe for the Lantern hybrids as they use actually tapping artifacts? But what do you see in him? Beatdown ultimate? I believe Thopter swarm'ing - Little Tezz minus and Ult do this just better. I'll bet a looney that Jace is just better use of these slots anyways.
RE: Meloku, if I recall well Shoota Yasooka ran some Meloku in his GP Kobe finish circa 2014. You might be able to draw something from him: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkob14/deck-tech-shota-yasooka-2014-08-23
RE: Excavators etc. I like this approach very much. (Perhaps) heading into a Tron-heavy meta, I have to remind people that not too long ago I had come up with a Tezzerator build and SB plan that had like 75% win rate against Tron. It might be time to revisit it's principles. This idea of a green transformational SB could perhaps even improve the build. Digging up the decklist for reference :
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
4x Mishra's Bauble
Bullets
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Welding jar
Disruption
4x Fatal Push
3x Collective Brutality
3x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Welding Jar
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Quicksilver Fountain
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Herald of Anguish
2x Damnation
Sideboard plan. IN:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Quicksilver Fountain
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Herald of Anguish
OUT:
4x Fatal Push
3x Collective Brutality
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Relic of Progenitus
NOTE: Playing it out, Pentad Prisms and suiting them up with Tezz's -1 on Turn 3 while attacking their hand and GQ'ing the hell away at their lands are the cornerstone of this strategy.
/edit: lol wow, now that I look at it a year later, there's so much room for improvement (and new cards!) here.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Yikes! My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.
@superbruce56:
1.) Witchbane Orb is sort of a meta call. It is excellent for locking the game up against burn and Scapeshift. I routinely use it to lock out planeswalker ultimates since most target a player. Witchbane Orb also keeps your opponent from bolting your planeswalkers.
2.) I really like the 2 Ensnaring Bridge. With 3 copies of Whir of Invention it means we have 5 effective copies when we need it. Once you get beyond 4 effective copies there are diminishing returns. You never want to draw two but always want one.
3.) It is mostly bringing the curve down. I typically ran 3 Tezzeret before the JTMS unban so I am plus one 4 mana planeswalker from where I use to be. I started with a 3/2 split but holding 2-3 four mana planeswalkers in your opening hand is really bad against most of the field.
4.) I am of the opinion that the combo is overlooked. I win an absurd amount of games by sticking the combo in game 1 and I want to find it ASAP. I have even considered a 4/3 and a 4/2 split but much like my Ensnaring Bridge argument you never want to draw the second one.
5.) Death’s Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Tasigur the Golden Fang, Kitesail Freebooter, Dark Confidant, Grim Flayer. If I am playing a kill spell in my deck it needs to be able to hit all of these guys and Executioner’s Capsule can’t.
@dustrycrumbz:
That is basically it when comes to the planeswalker choices. Drawing multiple Tezzerert’s is worse than Tezzerets and Jaces. Tezzeret is a much better proactive play but once the board is locked down JTMS is WAY better. You typically don’t have 10 artifacts when you play Tezzeret so you spend 3-5 turns digging into more artifacts before you ultimate. Meanwhile you are vulnerable to artifact hate coming off the top of the opponent’s deck. JTMS insulates you from those draws. He wins more cleanly than Tezzeret from a locked up board state, but more slowly.
About the Padeem discussion. I am still early in testing this card. I never liked it costing 4 mana and being a creature but I thought I would try it given the meta is likely to become more grindy. I’m not sure about this card yet but the best part about it is that it eats a maelstrom pulse. It would be very good in the Jund matchup but when it is our only creature it is susceptible to lotv edict.
@Xatrith:
Congrats on the great run!
I play 3 sideboard sweepers almost entirely because of humans. I bring in all of my spot removal as well. It is a hard matchup for sure.
How did sideboard CoV and Trinisphere perform for you? What about KCI?
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Agree on at least 2 sweepers in the board. Tireless tracker seems to be everywhere these days, and go-wide strategies should be popular in the new meta.
For the spire/glimmervoid part : it was there for main purpose of testing both. I've not been blown out often while playing glimmervoid but it happened one or two times while testing. The spire is fine too, it's not often that the 1 hp cost if really impact-full. Still i'm unsure of which one is better.
@racing089 Chalice has been nearly useless because i didn't encounter decks that are wrecked by it (like living end). When i got paired against affinity i didn't draw it while on the play and sided it out for the draw. Still i managed to play it against burn on the play and caught a bolt in their hand. It was a bit low to only get one card but it felt nice having that safety belt tho. Trinisphere, well i saw no storm and missed the opportunity to use it against Ad Nauseam. For KCI, i'm now sure that it is really better than Sieve after the swap of Moxes for Pentad Prisms. I would say it's trully better despite giving a turn more to opponent to find ways out when played on your turn. The times when you can just resolve whir and put victory out of reach for your opponent are just really too much value for Sieve to compete.
1 Spellskite
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Spells (11)
4 Serum Visions
3 Collective Brutality
4 Whir of Invention
Artifacts (25)
3 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
2 Welding Jar
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pentad Prism
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Time Sieve
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Search for Azcanta
Lands (19)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Glimmervoid
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 River of Tears
2 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
2 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Witchbane Orb
I am mainly interested in:
1) the land base, can I run more spires and Glimmevoids?
2) how good is the crucible/ghost quarter plan?
3) are counter spells worth it in the side board/main deck?
4) how do I decide Thoughtseize vs Inquisition vs Collective Brutality and the correct numbers of each?
and any other tips and advice.
Thanks! I love this deck idea and this thread behind it. It is right up my ally!
@racing089 I agree that having thopter/sword heavy game one is a seriously good position in the meta. Being able to side into a grind plan that doesn't activate and artifact in game two and then shuffling your whole sideboard in g3 so they're guessing how to side would be pretty magical. I'll try a list like that tomorrow and report back. I think Meloku could be a very potent answer to the stony problem.
I am new to Modern and am going to start playing Modern at a new LGS that has consistent Modern FNMs and tournaments because the one I currently go to only has Standard and Limited for prizes.
I am not new to Tezzeretor as an archetype though because I have played it in some form since he came out in MBS.
I am going against an unknown meta (only deck that I know will be there is my friend that's going to come with me on GB Elves), so I have a few thoughts and questions based on the current iteration of my list.
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Spire of Industry
2x Watery Grave
1x Academy Ruins
1x Breeding Pool
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Inventor's Fair
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
Planeswalkers:
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Spellskite
Spells:
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Whir of Invention
2x Collective Brutality
Artifacts:
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal
3x Talisman of Dominance
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Sword of the Meek
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Welding Jar
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Damnation
1x Duress
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Pithing Needle
1x Welding Jar
1x Witchbane Orb
I have CB in main over TS in the side since I run 3 Tezz, Foundry, and Opal (discard outlet) and I'm not sure how heavy I need to go on removal yet. I am also considering switching an IoK with a TS in the side.
I am currently trying 3/2/2 Foundry/Sword/Bridge but I am not sure if I want a third Bridge or Foundry.
About a year ago I sold a bunch of staples because I didn't think I would be able to play Modern competitively (rip shocks, fetches, lilis, jaces, etc.) so my mana isn't the best. I am willing to buy another 2 Polluted Delta and any relatively cheap lands. I already have another Verdant Catacombs and another Watery Grave.
I think CTP is an obvious cut since it enters tapped even though it is really strong (sans Fatal Push at least). What about Darksteel Citadel? Glimmervoid, more Spires, and Ghost Quarter are also things I've considered adding.
The EE in the side is a flex spot. First of all, which decks would you want to bring it in against if it is even worth a spot? Cards I am considering in its spot are Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Chalice of the Void, Crucible of Worlds, another Ensnaring Bridge, Flaying Tendrils, Ghost Quarter, Trading Post, and possibly Herald of Anguish.
I partially consider the sideboard Welding Jar a flex spot too, though I think it is going to be staying in with the amount of Kcommand likely incoming to the format.
Finally, my main question: against an unknown meta, which hate artifacts are going to be my best bet to try mainboard before I can see what the field looks like?
Thanks again guys
@DegenerateEE
Hi there! So the list you're on looks similar to the adjusted shell I've been working with, so I'll shed some insight on my thought process.
1) I noticed you cut a Bauble, a Search, and a Bridge for a 3rd Tez, a KCI, and a maindeck Witchbane Orb. I believe the typical shells (of the higher artifact count/heavier thopter sword plan) previously played 20-21 lands and 3, maybe 4x 4-cmc spells at the top end. Your changes have cut a 0, 2, and a 3 for 3x 4-cmc spells, putting your 4-cmc spell count to 5. At this point I'd highly suggest playing more lands (probably closer to 21-22) if you're set on a top end this high. Unless one of your 4-mana spells is Bottled Cloister, you're more likely to run into issues with clunky hands when you need to be at 0 for bridge locks. The deck I ran cut the 20th land because I swapped out the 3rd Tez and something else for 2x Search (lowering my top end to 2x 4-cmc spells but keeping the non-artifact wincon count to 4), since Search acts as a pseudo walker/wincon but has a low cost to reduce the number of clunky hands/draws. I like the idea behind the Lantern/Thopter hybrid that people have been playing but since I wanted to test a deck that's more all-in on Thopter sword/Tezzeret, Search for Azcanta plays a similar role by filtering our draws like the mill rocks do (which increases our overall card quality/prevents drawing into bad hands when we're relying on bridge), then flips into an additional mana source to dump any extra spells stuck in our hand later (and ability can hit combo/lock pieces to close the game if we haven't already). I think KCI could be cut (for curve considerations) since you also have Time Sieve (I'd chose 1 or the other since both fill the same role). However, if you prefer KCI, I'd suggest looking to the shell that Xatrith has been on.
2) I've played a lot of games with GQ (with and without crucible) against Tron and I have to say, I've lost enough times that I don't think it's worth it (a little too slow, not quite consistent enough for my liking). You can certainly "get them", especially in tandem with surgical, but this is only half the battle. Plus GQ just increases your density of non-blue mana sources in a deck that has a relatively low land count and a triple blue spell you want to snap off as quickly/consistently as possible, as well as being a land you don't want to see when being able to cast a turn 1 serum visions could make/break being able to keep/mulligan. GQ is certainly good, but it's not like we have a super fast clock outside of a turn 3 Tez + turn prism into a 5/5. If that's the line we take, that means you weren't able to snap off GQ until turn 4 (unless you had a Mox), at which point it could be too late. Alternatively, if you used GQ before turn 3, you're down a land drop and you don't have the clock needed to pressure a deck like Tron, and Crucible runs a similar risk. It's good when Tron doesn't have a good hand and you have a great one - the problem being that Tron has way more consistency in getting to turn 3 Tron + cast a wincon than you do of something like GQ and 2 more lands + Prism + Mox + another 0-1 mana artifact + Tez/Crucible. I think Tron is just a bad matchup and since we have a plan and can certainly beat Tron when things line up favorably for us, your efforts should be focused towards beating close/winnable matchups to make your overall tournament win percentages that much higher, but that's just me.
3) Rule of thumb with ensnaring bridge decks - If you play bridge, don't play reactive spells that have the potential to rot in your hand, ie counterspells.
4) This depends on the shell you want to play. If you're playing the shell I've been on, I aim to cut off portions of my opponent's deck through the combo/prison plan rather than trade 1-for-1. Brutality is nice because it allows us to both disrupt early to pave the way for a turn 3 spell like bridge, while also dumping cards that would otherwise prevent us from getting hellbent for bridge as quickly as possible. I also haven't felt the need for more hand disruption maindeck because I personally prefer simply having a higher density/redundancy of impactful spells. I'd rather just be holding a hand of something like Foundry, whir, bridge, search when my opponent takes THEIR turn Thoughtseizing me and/or knowing I have a higher likelihood of recovering from a timely disruption spell through followup draw steps.
However, if you're leaning towards wanting to play more impactful non-artifact control elements like more planeswalkers/wincons that come down mid-late game, then I think you almost have to be maindecking cards like IOK/Thoughtseize in order to pave the way for these bigger spells. Again, it really depends on how you plan to focus your G1 gameplan and which shell you prefer in the new meta. I've played countless versions of Tezzerator/various control decks over the years and I've just come to be more partial to slanting heavier towards the low to the ground, all-in thopter sword/bridge gameplan. Not saying the planeswalker decks aren't good by any means (it's nice being insulated more against artifact/GY hate), I've just personally found more success in being as focused as possible towards my G1 gameplan (assembling the combo/bridge lock).
@Xatrith Thanks for your insight! I've had the same sentiments towards the swamp in testing so far so I think I'm going to follow suit and play the 3rd Island over the 1st Swamp.
I've also come to the same conclusion on Glimmervoid vs Spire, but I'm actually going to try a second Breeding Pool and just 1 Spire for now (again, I'm running less lands than you since my curve is lower, and as of now, I can't justify cutting any other land before adding more Glimmervoid/Spires). I could maybe stay at only 2x Basics and play 2x Spires, but IDK, that sounds iffy to me. Second Breeding Pool might hurt too much, so we'll see.
@superbruce56
- In regards to IOK vs TS main - If you're only playing 3x of these spells total, I think you play all of one or the other. You should strive for consistency and make the call based on a meta prediction. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up to have a higher chance of drawing the wrong one when you need the other. Keeping 3x IOK is probably fine here.
- In this version, I also think you should keep the 3/2/2 split as you have it now.
- CTP isn't really great, as it comes in tapped as you mentioned, but also costs 3 mana to activate when you'll probably need the mana for something else and also won't be swinging behind a bridge. It's good when you need a mana sink and want to get aggressive, but that's not really where this deck aims to position itself.
- EE comes in/out of my board as well, but I've recently cut it since it could hurt more than help, especially if you draw it later but already set up thopter sword (2), or a bridge lock (3). EE on 1 can be good, and EE prior to your own board development is certainly fine, but I didn't really like it's potential of putting me in a tight spot more often than not. I have some flex slots in my board as well and am constantly adjusting, trying to find a collection of post-board gameplans I like, but I'm ultimately just waiting to see what the new meta looks like as the dust begins to settle.
- I like Welding Jar main, but it has a slightly higher potential to be air since you're running a lower density of artifacts. But it's not like you've cut the density of artifacts by a significant amount, and when it's good it's really good.
- For now, I have 1 Pithing Needle and 1 GY cantrip in my maindeck flex slots. There were a lot of close considerations, but Pithing Needles seems good while a lot of people are still hyped on Jace (many of these decks won't have a way to remove it G1), and I wanted Spellbomb/Relic over Cage since even at their worst, they'll still replace themselves. I understand the pros and cons of Relic over Spellbomb, but I personally decided to choose Spellbomb since my deck is playing 2x Search. Again, I like to eliminate any amount of potential of forcing myself into tight spots wherever I can help it. I might try Relic for a while in order to see if my initial reasonings can be justified or not.
4 bridge
4 lilly
4 tez
4 thopter
3 sword
3 whir
4 collective brutality
And a bunch of discard and removal. There are a ton of home brews floating around my LGS and I think everyone is spooked from/stoked on Jace, so it could be a good moment to sneak in with a brain dead thopter build.
In summation, I think for now the artifact dream is dead.
I agree, jund will be more common than before, but it is still a corner case. It's unfortunate when things fall apart like that but to put things in perspective, I won a game last night with an early bridge and 2 jars, and my opponent had abrupt decay and by the time he saw his first ancient grudge, I had hit academy ruins, cast Spellskite, and just had him locked. Super lucky on my end, but I think we're far from throwing in the towel. So many decisions/opposing actions can be made leading up to bad situations against BBE jund (what each player's draws are, decisions with whir/serum visions, etc.), we just might have to adjust a bit.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Keep the dream alive!
Disgrunteled_Elk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Sorcery:
4 Thoughtseize
Instant:
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Whir of Invention
Artifacts:
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Welding Jar
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
2 Duress
3 Ensoul Artifact
1 Fatal Push
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
We played straight ub, esper, and sultai with the best results coming from sultai. Decay is a flexible enough answer for stony silence as well as many other random problem permanents in modern. We are still trying to figure out a perfect sideboard, but I will be lurking around if yall want to chat.
For those who love thirst, sorry it has been cut. Current list is -1 Jar, -2 thirst, -1 relic, +3 serum visions +1 nihil spellbomb main. Sideboard is up to 3 decays, - padeem. There should be more brutalities in the board, but they are wayyyy to expensive online.