I wouldn't bring back Jar, necessarily. I'd rather just put in Sai in the sideboard or something, or more Dead of Winter. The biggest new threat out of Jund is certainly Plague Engineer. Sweepers like Dead of Winter still clean up against them.
As for playing this deck online, absolutely don't just make thopters for Urza's ability unless you need to. Typically, if you're up against combo or Tron, you just need to get *something* from Urza. Like a needle for O-Stone, or something like that. It doesn't have to be your win-con. Today, I had infinite on board game 2 against tron, and I Urza'd for 5 minutes (I'd already won game one) to get a needle on O-Stone, thinking that was his only out. Sadly, he had an Emrakul the Promised End, and then proceeded to exile my deck with Urza. If I had just played and sacced all my thopters foundries, he wouldn't have been able to do this. Oh well, lesson learned. So while it's hard to know all your opponent's outs, you do get a feel for the bare minimum to just win.
Get Assassin's Trophy, Kolaghan's Command, Maelstrom Pulse and discards, side Ancient Grudge. This scarys me. Maybe was just a unlucky game for me.
I use Sai in the MB anyway. Well, will try again and see. tks.
Someone can make a little sideboarding guide/tips against the todays meta decks? Sometimes i feel little lost now in the combo build, in the prison build was more easy.
For the most part, I agree with his sideboadring guide (if you happen to play those cards), but I definitely would board out 3 opals against both Jund and UW control, and not board out Goblin Engineers. Against Jund, they represent card advantage by fetching astrolabes and recurring them.
I think his build is sub-optimal. I don't like Chromatic Star over Serum Visions, even playing with Sai, which is currently not a card I would maindeck given all of the Tron and Hogaak running around. If you're looking for a 1-drop artifact that can be sacced for value, why not just max out on Nihil Spellbomb, which at the minimum does that job at the cost of one B mana extra, but in other situations exiles graveyards early on. I dunno. I see lists that he linked to with Pentad Prism and just cringe at his comment that "it synergizes nicely with whir" that lack the deeper context that while prism allows you to more easily whir for bridge on turn 3, that any 0 cmc artifact does an equal job because you don't have to take your second turn off and can play a more relevant artifact (and will have a more empty hand for that bridge).
I wanted to mention that I've been messing around with an Esper build featuring Scheming Symmetry instead of the usual 4-color with Goblin Engineer. Symmetry is a card that presents a fun deck-building challenge, which I enjoy, but other than that symmetry also enables a quick Terminus which can be backbreaking against Hogaak after they get their 14-16 power on board. While I don't really think this build is anywhere close to better than 4 color, I do like some of the lines it has. And where symmetry requires other pseudo bad cards to work, this deck can afford to play some do-nothing artifacts like Codex Shredder.
Right now, for cards that make Symmetry work, I'm on:
Thought scour, raveler, and altar all offer decent payoffs that the deck already wants (altar for infinite mill over some other infinite payoff). Terminus is a 1-of main, 1-of sideboard. So Shredder is basically the chaff, which I'm OK with because it has some micro-synergies with bauble, early self mill to hit a sword, and recurring something late game. I'll continue to test it out for fun, and report back.
You guys sideout Ensnaring Bridge against jund too? I dont agree if that part. I think bridge gain us much time. Not fan to sideout goblin too, if get removed, one less to our combo piece.
Against UW, is not worth mox to try be fast and/or make 2 threads in a turn? (UW is a match that I doubt the most part of time).
I wanted to mention that I've been messing around with an Esper build featuring Scheming Symmetry instead of the usual 4-color with Goblin Engineer. Symmetry is a card that presents a fun deck-building challenge, which I enjoy, but other than that symmetry also enables a quick Terminus which can be backbreaking against Hogaak after they get their 14-16 power on board. While I don't really think this build is anywhere close to better than 4 color, I do like some of the lines it has. And where symmetry requires other pseudo bad cards to work, this deck can afford to play some do-nothing artifacts like Codex Shredder.
Right now, for cards that make Symmetry work, I'm on:
Thought scour, raveler, and altar all offer decent payoffs that the deck already wants (altar for infinite mill over some other infinite payoff). Terminus is a 1-of main, 1-of sideboard. So Shredder is basically the chaff, which I'm OK with because it has some micro-synergies with bauble, early self mill to hit a sword, and recurring something late game. I'll continue to test it out for fun, and report back.
Great to see a different take on the deck! I’m trying an esper build myself so keen to get your thoughts on your build and overall how it feels to drop red. Think it’s got enough to make it viable?
The deck is getting more recognition than ever and the forum dedicated to the deck is dead. Crazy.
So how have people's results been? Any new changes.
Is it preferred with or without mind stones, serum visions over chromatic star or vice versa
Padeem has been tickling my fancy recently, but I don't quite think the current meta calls for it. I still don't think stars or wellspring are worth the slots, and that some number of visions (maybe even 1-2) can help smooth mulligans.
Still losing to tron, mostly. Hogaak is still hard, but I've learned to stop attacking the graveyard and focus on board control more, which helps. Storm variants, including twiddle storm, is on the rise, so more Ego may be called for. And a lot of red aggro/prowess decks means whenever I drop below 3 battle at the bridge I find myself being punished.
I think this forum does need a new name. While I don't exactly prefer Whirza, it has become the most recognizable and I don't want to try to force the issue to something we old timers prefer.
Unmoored Ego is a must in this meta, since you name baby Karn, Tron land, Valakut, Primeval Titan, Lotus Field, Urza, etc.
In my last testing, I ve been trying out 2 baby Karn myself, as having more tutor pieces / bullets / Lattice was quite powerfull. Also T3feri overperformed.
As that, I opted to play 2 Mind Stones, which feels good (especially with so many 4 drops and Time Sieve)
Serum Visions was always OK, but I can live without it.
The deck felt really powerful. Had game vs everything.And easily plays around extraction and graveyard hate. Never faced Stony silence though.
Just let me elaborate a bit now that I am home.
I am a big fan of the power goblin engineer brings, but it felt more of a liability than anything else during the tournament. People playing surgical extraction main deck in all sorts of decks really makes it tricky to search up something useful on turn 2. That's why I only played 2 and mostly sided them out (or at least 1) out in game 2 and 3 if my opp had access to RiP or LotV.
I noticed people cutting down on whir, but I still think it is one of the best cards for the deck. It enables all sorts of reactive plays, let's you play through Chalice, finds your combo pieces, etc. The only awkward thing is it's interaction with Urza, that's why I opted to play a tormod's crypt and welding jar (also since artifact destruction is back on people's radar) so I could still tutor for something useful if I hit whir with Urza.
Not playing Ghirapur Aethergrid was something I never considered before, since I wanted a way to end the game on the spot. But it really isn't necessary. Spine and infinite life is more than enough.
As a final note, I'd like to add that the real all star of the deck was Sai. I tested with list running Sai in the side in favor of Teferi main, but without Sai it is so hard to apply pressure. Not being able to attack a Narset or Karn, the great creator is a big issue.
Oh and the games where you are on the draw with caverns and mind stone are just degenerate...
I've been playing a similar list but with a 2 Karn, 3 Urza, and an extra Mindstone. Being able to dump pieces in the yard and not worry about surgical feels very nice. As does having extra pieces in the SB, and useful mana sinks when you have Urza + 10 artifacts out without the combo. I like a Darksteel Citadel for the feel bad Urza -> Whir activations and I think I'm going to adopt the Gemstone Caverns as well. All our relevant cards are 2+ and we need ramp/live opals to catch up to the speed of Phoenix/Prowess/Hogaak. I'm slowly getting off playing the White as well... Teferi just isn't necessary when you can keep runnning bombs/card advantage into so many decks and Karn allows you to top everything with a bit of mana.
Your logic on Ghirapur is solid. I will say it won me a game in turns but that's a bit silly, spine should be threatening the same immediate win at any other point in the game and it clogged up a few hands I would have much rather had a Sai or another whir.
I start to fimd a little hard match this time, many discards and removes. Someone are facing mor jund then before?
This matchs make me think to bring back welding jar back
As for playing this deck online, absolutely don't just make thopters for Urza's ability unless you need to. Typically, if you're up against combo or Tron, you just need to get *something* from Urza. Like a needle for O-Stone, or something like that. It doesn't have to be your win-con. Today, I had infinite on board game 2 against tron, and I Urza'd for 5 minutes (I'd already won game one) to get a needle on O-Stone, thinking that was his only out. Sadly, he had an Emrakul the Promised End, and then proceeded to exile my deck with Urza. If I had just played and sacced all my thopters foundries, he wouldn't have been able to do this. Oh well, lesson learned. So while it's hard to know all your opponent's outs, you do get a feel for the bare minimum to just win.
I use Sai in the MB anyway. Well, will try again and see. tks.
Someone can make a little sideboarding guide/tips against the todays meta decks? Sometimes i feel little lost now in the combo build, in the prison build was more easy.
I think his build is sub-optimal. I don't like Chromatic Star over Serum Visions, even playing with Sai, which is currently not a card I would maindeck given all of the Tron and Hogaak running around. If you're looking for a 1-drop artifact that can be sacced for value, why not just max out on Nihil Spellbomb, which at the minimum does that job at the cost of one B mana extra, but in other situations exiles graveyards early on. I dunno. I see lists that he linked to with Pentad Prism and just cringe at his comment that "it synergizes nicely with whir" that lack the deeper context that while prism allows you to more easily whir for bridge on turn 3, that any 0 cmc artifact does an equal job because you don't have to take your second turn off and can play a more relevant artifact (and will have a more empty hand for that bridge).
Right now, for cards that make Symmetry work, I'm on:
Thought scour, raveler, and altar all offer decent payoffs that the deck already wants (altar for infinite mill over some other infinite payoff). Terminus is a 1-of main, 1-of sideboard. So Shredder is basically the chaff, which I'm OK with because it has some micro-synergies with bauble, early self mill to hit a sword, and recurring something late game. I'll continue to test it out for fun, and report back.
Against UW, is not worth mox to try be fast and/or make 2 threads in a turn? (UW is a match that I doubt the most part of time).
Great to see a different take on the deck! I’m trying an esper build myself so keen to get your thoughts on your build and overall how it feels to drop red. Think it’s got enough to make it viable?
Here is my current list http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-08-19-urzas-foundry/?cb=1564824238
So how have people's results been? Any new changes.
Is it preferred with or without mind stones, serum visions over chromatic star or vice versa
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Still losing to tron, mostly. Hogaak is still hard, but I've learned to stop attacking the graveyard and focus on board control more, which helps. Storm variants, including twiddle storm, is on the rise, so more Ego may be called for. And a lot of red aggro/prowess decks means whenever I drop below 3 battle at the bridge I find myself being punished.
I think this forum does need a new name. While I don't exactly prefer Whirza, it has become the most recognizable and I don't want to try to force the issue to something we old timers prefer.
In my last testing, I ve been trying out 2 baby Karn myself, as having more tutor pieces / bullets / Lattice was quite powerfull. Also T3feri overperformed.
As that, I opted to play 2 Mind Stones, which feels good (especially with so many 4 drops and Time Sieve)
Serum Visions was always OK, but I can live without it.
List can be found here later today https://www.channelfireball.com/top-8-decklists-of-the-sunday-mcq-at-magicfest-birmingham/ (Bart horré)
The deck felt really powerful. Had game vs everything.And easily plays around extraction and graveyard hate. Never faced Stony silence though.
Just let me elaborate a bit now that I am home.
I am a big fan of the power goblin engineer brings, but it felt more of a liability than anything else during the tournament. People playing surgical extraction main deck in all sorts of decks really makes it tricky to search up something useful on turn 2. That's why I only played 2 and mostly sided them out (or at least 1) out in game 2 and 3 if my opp had access to RiP or LotV.
I noticed people cutting down on whir, but I still think it is one of the best cards for the deck. It enables all sorts of reactive plays, let's you play through Chalice, finds your combo pieces, etc. The only awkward thing is it's interaction with Urza, that's why I opted to play a tormod's crypt and welding jar (also since artifact destruction is back on people's radar) so I could still tutor for something useful if I hit whir with Urza.
Not playing Ghirapur Aethergrid was something I never considered before, since I wanted a way to end the game on the spot. But it really isn't necessary. Spine and infinite life is more than enough.
As a final note, I'd like to add that the real all star of the deck was Sai. I tested with list running Sai in the side in favor of Teferi main, but without Sai it is so hard to apply pressure. Not being able to attack a Narset or Karn, the great creator is a big issue.
Oh and the games where you are on the draw with caverns and mind stone are just degenerate...
Your logic on Ghirapur is solid. I will say it won me a game in turns but that's a bit silly, spine should be threatening the same immediate win at any other point in the game and it clogged up a few hands I would have much rather had a Sai or another whir.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/august-26-2019-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2019-08-26
Standard:
Rampaging Ferocidon is unbanned.
Modern:
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis banned.
Faithless Looting is banned.
Stoneforge Mystic is unbanned.
Vintage:
Karn, the Great Creator is restricted.
Mystic Forge is restricted.
Mental Misstep is restricted.
Golgari Grave-Troll is restricted.
Fastbond is unrestricted.