MTG Salvation

I think chalice is a meta call. going to a larger tournament with large amounts of phoenix, deaths shadow and to a certain extent, tron and storm, chalice makes a lot of sense. a the FNM level, if the local guys aren't on phoenix there's not a whole lot of point to chalice, may as well jam a few extra bullets. And since phoenix is still so popular im expecting a meta shift when people finally figure out how to combat the deck, and chalice will lose a bit of power and become more of a sideboard card once again.

Yes, it's definitely a meta call, but even in this meta online, which has a lot more of those decks chalice is good against, I'm not really convinced it's worth it. It is really nice to land a chalice on 1 vs Shadow or Phoenix, but in the end, especially in game 1, the Thopter Sword combo we already have is also basically unbeatable. So just sticking with the main game plan of thopter sword is often enough. And in the end I don't like how it loads the deck even more heavily on 2 drops, when we're already pretty heavy on 2s. It ends up making all the other matchups a bit worse.

I think in the end I'll stick with maybe 1 chalice in the board to get with tolaria west, and if I really feel like 4 chalice main is where I want to be then I'll play actual Whir Prison

Hey guys, so I returned to competitive modern again over the last two weeks playing in my SCG Regionals and then the Open/Classic this weekend. I had 3x slightly different lists and long story short, it just wasn't my time (I won some tight matches against players like Benjamin Nikolitch on Jeskai, then immediately got blown out by stuff like my opponent ripping their 1-of Shatterstorm/Recall/6th piece of artifact have from Dredge with Cage locking the Grudges in the yard, etc. in a game 3 I was about to win). I got 1-outted in game 3 in all but 2 of my losses in 3 events lol.

There were some spots I'd like to have made some slightly different decisions in, but overall I was pretty happy about my performance from the last two weekends and can't get too bent out of shape about a lot of the crazy variance that I couldn't control. Still, I wanted to think of some ways to adjust since even the more favorable matchups have now become a lot closer (despite still being favorable overall), which puts on more pressure if game 1 slips from you. Last night at my LGS, I really branched out and wanted to test a handful of things:

1) More artifact-dense builds that people have been playing
2) Seeing if I'd miss the lack of creature interaction by being more all-in on the Hellbent/Bridge plan for small creature matchups
3) Seeing if I'd miss the green spells
4) Accommodating Chalice
5) Playing EE in a ThopterSword deck, which I also tend to disagree with (but felt necessary with the lack of interaction)
6) Taking out all the cantrips that when previously done over an extended period of time, felt were crucial to the percentages I was comfortable with. Wanted to either re-evaluate or further confirm my previous testing conclusions for myself (ie are the Azcanta and Fetch + Bauble as a pseudo Opt enough? Do the upsides of being able to proactively get hellbent with a lower curve/higher odds of metalcraft mitigate the need for cantrips to smooth draws/fix risky openers?)

I also had some postboard slots to address Shatterstorm/Hurkyl's/GDS overall, but more on that later.

Anyway, here's the rough draft of a new shell I took for a spin last night (finished 3-1, losing game 3 against GDS in the finals):



Note: Some of the decisions here (like the 1-2-2 split of Crypt/Nihil/Cage) are largely a meta call for my LGS and overall personal preference.

Wanted to test Mentor over Sai, as it creates bodies through the same means as Sai (actually more), though at the expense of them being artifacts for various upsides, as well as fliers. The upside to mentor is that in the face of Hurkyl's Recall/Shatterstorm, you don't get completely blown out by an opponent who is developing their board behind your bridge lock, only to blow you out once they find their silver bullet. Weak to bolt, but the upside seemed promising enough to try out (plus there's a non-0% chance the GDS play cuts their 1-2 bolts postboard anyway).

Metallic Rebuke is another hedge to both of those spells that still costs 1-2 mana on average but doesn't get locked by your own Chalice on 1 (which you actively want to get online asap) or Chalice on 2. granted its just a mana leak, but often times decks like GDS/Phoenix won't have the luxury of playing around it (nor will they probably actively think about it anyway).

R1: 2-1 Eldrazi Tron
This guy is known to take archetypes and put a spin on them. Tonight he was playing EldraziTron but with more Mono Green Tron elements (ie more walkers/less creatures), which actually just made things harder for me lol. Game 1 he regular Trons me to the point where I think I'm just playing Mono G Tron (didn't een see a temple/cavern). Game 2-3 Chalice really pulled their weight and was one of the reasons I was looking forward to testing the card again.

R2: 2-1 Infect
Pretty happy I maindecked Spellskite tonight (been going back and forth depending on what I need to make room for in the board/overall 75). All 3 games were uncomfortably close, but Spellskite/Bridge/not having tempo negative plays in cantrips helped a decent amount. Also, Metallic Rebuke was a huge blowout.

R3: 2-0 Affinity
Able to get behind ThopterSword and/or bridge before they killed me (had lethal on board the one time. This is why we play a high density of Combo pieces plus max Whirs - Topdeck staticstics are good. Also another matchup where I was happy to have no cantrips, but not necessarily a reason to favor cutting them in the long run overall.

R4: 1-2 GDS
Game 1 I had him right where I wanted him - both out of gas, but I ended with a Cloister online. I drew running lands/Mox/bad stuff and died to 4 Gurmag hits. Here's a matchup where I did miss Serum to some extent, but on the other side, isn't the tipping point to locking in 3-4 every time I play moving forward either. Just something to note. I also want to take a moment to reiterate that while I understand the ceiling and have noticed many players favoring some number of battle at the bridge, I still don't care for this spell overall. It wildly underperformed for me this weekend but I reluctantly played it when I had Chalice in the 75 as a Fatal Push replacement. It's fine and I get why people love it. I'm still just not personally excited about it every time I've sleeved it up.
Game 2 I lock him on resolved LOTV and the Combo. Game 3 I kept a risky one, but was unable to draw into enough mana.

I'm going to keep testing this shell to get more data. Not sure if I'll stick with it long term, but it certainly has a lot of things going for it and wasn't totally awful by any means (closer to Dom Harvey's shell than what I'm used to). Wanna keep moving the flex slots around for sure.

@dustycrumbz that's a neat report you wrote there! I ve been testing a mainboard playset of chalice of the void recently, found that it weakens some of our best MUs and doesn t really improve many more, while also requiring some deckbuilding adjustements i ve learned to hate. I m curious: when you re siding them in? Wouldn t it be better to have more narrow cards(like keeping green)? Also one of the biggest issues i found with chalice is the missing card filtering with serum visions, this lessens the number of keepable hands and I think forces to play 1-2 more lands, as Dom Harvey did, how do you feel about it?

Second point: how is engineered explosives going? Their not suited well in our shell (as you stated) but i m curious.

I m tempted to try Monastery mentor, but i d drop chalices from the side to keep playing green and maybe some swan song in place of rebuke.

I ll post the deck I d play with the addition of your suggestions, with a small discussion of some choices at the end!



So, i m not playing spellskite mainboard because how dense of pushes and ptes my LGS is, some minor changes aswell are due to meta calls..
I m low on welding Jar mainboard because it s rarely needed more than once the first game, I m aware it can be used to enable metalcraft and for that reason i implemented the tormod's crypt. I m heavy on collective brutality to mitigate the tempo lost with cantrips and helping getting hellbent.

The card I m less fond of is search for azcanta, the card filtering is less usefull due to the presence of serum visions, so i m planning to switch it in favor of some interaction, maybe EE, maybe battle at the bridge, I don't know, any suggestion???

Looking forward to test some mentor, thanks for all your tips! lets keep in touch!

Hello all, Before I started I wanted to make sure this is the correct forum for Whir Prison.
I'm about to start building and playing the deck, and had a few questions.

I think whir prison comes under the lantern thread. This thread deals more with variants playing thoptersword... but by all means we'd love to have you here. And some whir prison lists have started turning to thoptersword as a quicker way of closing out games!!

Thanks, funny thing is, I just ordered 4 Sword of the Meek & 4 Thopter Foundry over the weekend. SO maybe this is where I need to be.

I just have one thing as a... road bump if you will. I had all my old cards from back when, but only had 3 Mox Opal, and now that they are $90+ dollars, I don't think I am going to get 1 more. So I will be playing with 3, and put in another 1 of, something from the sideboard.

I have always just used 3 opals and it had worked out well. You'll probably want 4 if your running chalice of the void build though. But if you wanna do more of the Dominic harvey list 3 should be fine

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21271&d=342199&f=MO

Speaking of chalice I just got a set since I see them going up due to thoptersword/ whir prison doing very well lately and I don't wanna kick myself if they get really expensive since I had to foil my deck out. Anyway does anyone have experience running them in our style of build? If so any advice is appreciated I know nurmansk didn't really like them but can I hear some more opinions plz

Hey fullmetaltezzeret! I ll explore a little more my thoughts on chalice of the void: i tried to build a list without compromising our plan A, dropping off my 1cmc spells in favor of more opals, tormod and jars, to help metalcraft and a fast chalice.

This didn t go well, but it may just be a meta call: in the last two tourneys i got paired twice with our dredge player and lost both matches (with his surprise as before playing chalices he never got me once due to MB nihils and grafdiggers). I also lost repeatedly to grixis control and shadow, being unable to impact graveyard stopping delve threats, and without the support of serum visions to help dig and smooth my draws in midgame.
Again, we don t have any burn here, MU in wich chalice shines, so you have to take my reports for what they are, but when i think chalice is a strong answer to for exemple phoenix decks my brain just tells me grafdigger/nihil are better. On the other hand, chalice stops some good SB options that opponents usually board in vs us, such as surgical extraction and nature's claim, but again, i ve never had many issues fighting them without our void glass.

Are you guys playing without serums? I saw TheNobodies telling that it might be an option to play serums in a chalice build beeing aware of it being a dead draw late in the game, this suggests me that some sort of cantrip is needed in our shell no matter what :/

That said, i got my own playset on chalice and I m ready to switch to that version if things are changing so I ll join fullmetaltezzeret's queue and wait for others' results

PS: my LGS is starting to adapt to my deck because I often have good results, people playing maindeck Engineered explosives and boarding Hurkyl's recall and stuffs, therefore I suggest trying to swap Sai, master thopterist for Monastery mentor, I had some people scream out loud because of that change and I stole some spicy game with that!!!!

i have the same question on engineered explosives. how it goes? the best use? have some number of counter that is good (0,2) but we have in number on deck ... maybe same on Chalice, i feel it's kind of awkward sometimes.

I personally have had success and come to the following conclusions to what I like:

- At least 3x cantrips (prefer Serum since it's on-color and lines up better against opposing hand disruption, but mainly the former)
- No EE/Chalice when on ThoprerSword (the combo is a proactive way to close games and both Chalice/EE contradict these slots IMO)
- Push over Battle (listed my pros and cons for each and personally prefer the case for the 1-mana instant speed interaction for little threats rather than the upside of a slower sorcery-speed interactive spell. Both buy time, the former does with tempo plays, the latter does with lifegain)
- Green spells to combat white enchantments (which overlap as more creature interaction)


I can def see making a case either way for each of these points. I just wanted to revisit my conclusions and test a shell that went against my previous testing results, but I still think it's too early to tell if I've adjusted my opinion on these things in relation to the current state of modern. Gun to my head though, I think I'd still register something closer to my tried/true version that I took to the RPTQ in November (closer to what I played at Regionals/Philly Open).

@FullmetalTezzeret - I will say that I have liked testing Chalice so far as a postboard strategy. It lines up well against a lot of very popular decks like Phoenix, Storm, Burn, GDS, and Tron, though what you cut to make room for them varies between each of these matchups. I still don't love it as a preboard strategy in the dark over ThopterSword. I wouldn't advise playing 3-4 Chalice in a maindeck deck with a 3-4 split of Sword/Foundry for curve considerations (both mana and gameplan development) and certainly wouldn't trim any of the combo in game 1's to make room. In my eyes, this is largely the draw between our deck and the 4-c Whir prison - Do you want these slots to proactively win the game a bit more quickly or proactively lock the game to go a bit longer. Both are well positioned in the meta, one has an inherent weakness to Cryptic decks while the other has a bigger soft spot against Tron.

We already have a pretty good matchup against u/w control though. Shutting off teferi is the main thing game one and dodging cryptic are the main things that need to be worried about. Landing at least 1 foundry and saving your bridge is usually enough. Chalice shuts off up to 8 of their draw cards or more if they would want to snap some. They would probably be sided out game 2 though. But having a better matchup against Tron and storm hell even ad nauseum seems like a plus. Even if they aren't the best game 1 they usually do a small amount of work. And they don't really hurt us that much. True we can't run a bunch of 1 drops but we can run some like needle and cage cause we run whir. I'd probably run 1 needle and 1 spyglass main and maybe another spyglass side. Also I there's tormods crypt for gy hate. Yeah it doesn't draw but it costs 0 and can be tutored up with twest as well. I'm gonna up my land count to 21 and try without visions. Cause somehow Dominic harvey powned without any.

@FullMetalTezzeret Yeah you're absolutely right, which is precisely why I mentioned liked Chalice as a strategy for the sideboard (in general, not in regards to blue decks) - I'd personally rather maintain my edge against Cryptic/other fair decks with ThopterSword rather than Chalice main (and the meta implications that go along with that decision). Sorry if my last post was a bit confusing in that regard, I laid out the matchups where I like Chalice for games 2-3.

My point was that I have yet to discover/see a compelling list that has a 3-4 split of the combo co-existing with the full 3-4 Chalice of the Voids in the maindeck, as we already have so many 2-mana plays and IMO they promote 2 conflicting gameplans aiming to be developed (ie, either prioritize the combo or the 4-c Whir prison gameplan for game 1). They both can certainly co-exist against some strategies, but I don't feel having both maindeck is a good idea for the vast majority of preboard configurations you'll face across all game 1's. Outside of some matchups like GDS and Phoenix (albeit popular ones), Chalice is typically good when the combo isn't and vice versa, so forcing a high number of both in at the same time sorta dilutes the overall focus and execution of your game 1 strategy. Curve consideration as well as preboard gameplan development definitely matters in these regards and I'd rather implement a more focused strategy and "pick a lane" for consistency sake.

Again, Foundry lines provide redundant Bridge effects that lock the board and can close games faster, whereas Chalice fills the same slots but aim to both protect the crucial lock piece (Bridge) and invalidate other pieces of the opposing deck. Baseline: one avenue aims to reduce turns (provides inevitability vs fair decks), the other aims to reduce opposing deck percentages (reduces opposing lines/buys time vs combo/combo-ish decks). Neither is necessarily better IMO, but I do have a preference for the former more so than the latter preboard.

To reiterate, having this flexibility for games 2-3 across the board is a different deckbuilding topic altogether.

I think people probably really want to consider Jester's Cap in the board. It's more of Whir Prison tech, but with Whir Prison becoming more and more popular, people are packing more, and more varied hate against us. Especially blowout hate like Shatterstorm, Consulate Crackdown, Tragic Arrogance etc. Cap works in similar situations to Unmoored Ego, but you don't have to take a guess at which piece of hate they're packing. The downside being it can't take the card out of their hand, so probably don't just abandon Ego, but Cap can also be recurred with Academy Ruins for an actual mill wincon in a pinch, though I doubt that will happen much/ever for us.

Zan Syed ran 1 in the board of his Thopter Prison deck last week, and I've been trying it out lately myself since Whir Prison has started playing it again. It's solid and I think a fairly necessary card right now

U/B Whir Deck Tech with Lee McLeod and Zan Syed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYK3hUBTs7g

This is cool. Im toying with the idea of just moving my chalices to the board. Maybe keep one or two main with a couple t-west. Being able to play needle and cage over all the two drops seems pretty important especially when youre trying to whir for 3 or 4. Im also maining cloister now. Its just great once you get behind a bridge!

As far as im concerned chalice can come in against phoenix, tron, GDS, and maybe storm but we have damping sphere for that.. other than those matchups its not super useful and thoptersword is pretty good against phoenix anyway, id rather the percentage points against dredge if im honest.

Hi all! I was wondering if there's anyone willing to discuss some general Sideboard strategies, I m not speaking of ''MU: X IN: Y OUT: Z'', I m referring of general automatism when sideboarding, like how to face Stony silence decks and stuffs. I ll try to make order with a bunch of points:

1) Stony silence MUs : how do you approach those? do you play green to get rid of the enchantment or do you just play alternative win con? Wich artifacts do you side out vs them? (mox opal , thopter foundry , mishra's bauble,welding jar and so on)

2) When do you side out mox opal? How many? When do you side out mishra's bauble?

3) How many alternative win conditions do you play? when do you side them in?

4)unmoored ego When do you play it and usual targets?

5)Have you ever considered to play monastery mentor instead of Say, master thopterist to soften our weakness to hurkyl's recall?

6) Do you play any counterspell to avoid shatterstorm and stuffs?

I personally have my own replies to those questions but I d like to know other players' thoughts!

Anyone reckon the new tezz warrants playing a bunch of mana rocks in a more meltiin style list? +2 is pretty big in a deck that can ramp to 6 with rocks and plays a bunch of 0cmc artifacts. Though 6 mana is a lot i feel like if you can ramp into this turn 4 with rocks and just start draining your op for days.

Blightsteel colossus in modern anyone?