I think opal and bauble go together hand in hand, and without one of the others I would be less likely to play either. With the 4 of bauble it means you can have opal turned on turn 1-3 much easier where as without you rarely will have that. I'm not too suprised you think opal is lackluster when you aren't running the 4-of baubles.
As a player who has splashed red for moon a ton, opals are necessary. Splash another color, they aren't as vital. I can see them being boarded out for certain matchups, however, like utility lands like GQ.
I've been testing out crazy things recently. Been playing jeskai thopters online with some good results (saheeli combo board and nahiri exiling stony silences left and right). But that's not relevant here. One thing I've found throuh all the crazy testing is that Altar of the Brood is very good against control, and actually won me multiple games against valakut decks. It mills them really fast with the combo, and puts stuff in their yard for surgical effects. May be worth a slot against control in the board.
Btw, the new GW devoted druid combo is kind of tough. I'm thinking orbs of warding may be a worthwhile upgrade over witchbane orb to negate walking ballista.
EDIT: For those splashing green, Vraska out of the board could be sweet vs the decks relying on stony and rip. Not as good as nahiri, but can fight through multiple lock pieces.
I like the idea of all in on Thopter/Sword with Time Sieve, it seems to make sense. All of the 0 drop artifacts really helps with that game plan as well.
The Baubles and Opals are a bit of a blocker for me at the moment. So is playing Modern in general in my area, so I haven't been able to take a list out to play and get any sort of results yet.
@radouf: Is the expedition map still worth running in this list if you don't have ghost quarter or academy ruins? it might be better off as a third welding jar, a darksteel citadel or maybe another inventors fair or even another U/G shock or fetch.
I can't tell yet as I haven't had the time to play nor test in the last ten days thanks to end of semester @ uni. Likely will 'Tricing a bit this afternoon then taking it out to roll @ FNM tonight. Will let you guys know what happens.
I went 5-3-1 but was on zero sleep and playing terribly; I draw a very bizarre/complicated match against Abzan that was a win with decent play. Notably, I'm now 4-1 against Jund Shadow over the two events and I think the matchup is solid.
Hey thanks for the input, and late congrats on the finish!
Hey all, Magpie sharing my thoughts/madness. I've been testing the green splash a bit recently.
-By splashing green, we streamline the lands (can cut down to 19 with Ancient Stirrings, fewer utility slots due to fixing demands); this detracts value from Crucible of Worlds as you may not have as many synergies with utility lands.
-With this in mind, I took out crucible and went up to 4/3 Foundry/Sword (I feel the combo is powerful and this improves our G1 against many decks). This is also more acceptable with green as you can play through hate rather than around it g2-3 (thanks Abrupt Decay) and because we now have Ancient Stirrings on top of all the other great ways to find stuff.
-With more reliable thoptersword, I found myself mostly regretting drawing Fatal Push (particularly as with green, we have Abrupt Decay too), so I cut 2. I also found myself able to move Collective Brutality to the sideboard, as g1 vs it's best targets is much more manageable with faster reliable thoptersword and Abrupt Decay.
-I find that G1, I'm mostly not getting value out of my MD graveyard hate (Nihil Spellbomb, though many prefer Relic of Progenitus. Moved to SB.
-Being more in on the combo g1 meant that having a singleton Time seive is surprisingly pokey. It's cheap to whir for and seals games out as early as turn 4 with a mox. I know what you're thinking; it's win more, but I assure you it's a different matter entirely having one in the MD than one in the board when you're this reliable at putting the combo together. You can just end the game turns earlier.
-Considering moving an Ensnaring Bridge to the side, since we have Stirrings to find and better thoptersword to hold with.
-Executioner's Capsule is back in the MD for now.
-Re: the sideboard, I'm wondering if I need Witchbane orb with Nature's claim and better thoptersword. I guess it's still good in some other matchups, but good enough to justify its slot? Likewise, not sure to what extent I need Thoughtseize since it is now far less critical to grab their Stony Silence/ Rest in Peace. All BB cost cards removed for now.
Hope that made sense...
This is by no means finalized (I am waiting on two more Spire of Invention and some other stuff) but I am finding the following to be effective. It genuinely feels more powerful than the deck I was on before. With this configuration the power of thoptersword is deployed consistently, and early, it feels very good.
So we're heading in the same direction. My thoughts:
I'm looking forward to 4/2 split Foundry and Sword as all the Stirrings can find Sword, which will theoretically give you more windows of opportunity for grabbing them and thus you need less copy for it to be reliably accessible (you know, on top of Whir and the fact that they're also technically available if sitting in the yard);
In the goldfishing testing I've done so far (mostly looking at internal consistencies and such), Darkslick Shores and Sanctum sometimes have screwed with my early plays. Because of this, I'm tempted to go down on the number of them, and up in fetches. Synergy points with Baubles;
Also, I'm really looking forward to run the fourth Opal. These lists have so many artifacts, it's essentially a land that's ramping and fixing you out with downsides that should be minimal. Free mana is broken and we have access to it. It's a cornerstone of Affinity and Lantern for a reason.
Can't help but think that 6 slots dedicated to removing Stony Silence is a lot. Looking at Decay essentially being a super Fatal Push that can push Stony off a cliff, so it's slots in perfectly and I'm not questionning that, but do we really need to extend into more SB Nature's Claim?? That's a lot of cards man, we end up having more answers than they do having SSs themselves. And do Claim make a difference against Tron?
I'm still tempted back by the damned Bottled Cloister tech to enable better Herald of Anguish beats. Remember: we can beat Stony by removing it, but also just by bashing the player's face in. Or as we're already in the splashing, by spewing lasers at them 'til they're ded, Ghirapur Æther Grid style. Note: I've been following Affinity talk on SS, and Enchantment removal has long been ruled out including by the top minds such as Frank Karsten -- they go Thoughtseize and Pierce. And Grid to punch through. Removal, too narrow they say. So I guess my point is just watch out to not overdo it with Claims.
But regarding the specific Cloister tech, all this color funkin' indeed already give us a lot to process, and I'm not sure that we have the slots to jam all of this. In this version I'm noticing we do lack a standalone artifact engine (which Crucible was). The right call will probably come from, again, answering: what match-ups do we need to fix the most? In that sense, I'm pretty sure the UB Ghost Quarter build I was on was one of the most reliable way we had to get the upper hand on Gx Tron. At least I heard it's going down in metagame share but, let's keep a collective eye on that: what match-up do we need a fix for. So?
As a primary Tron player, the only way this deck is going to beat Tron is if it has a faster clock, currently the clock is slow, and it doesn't put on enough pressure. We have three choices of attack. Lock out planeswalkers, lock our Eldrazi, or try to go for a land lock. OTP, going for hand disruption also works well, but it needs to be Thoughtseize or IoK, Collective won't cut it.
Honestly, Chalice on 1 is probably the most consistent, easiest way to hurt Tron. Locking out the eggs, map and Stirrings should be enough to close out the game before they naturally draw 7 lands.
Ghost Quarter lock is just too slow and inconsistent, sometimes you'll get there, woo grats, but it's not the approach I would recommend against Tron. All in on Chalice on 1 and 2, if you can manage it.
Hey all, Magpie sharing my thoughts/madness. I've been testing the green splash a bit recently.
-By splashing green, we streamline the lands (can cut down to 19 with Ancient Stirrings, fewer utility slots due to fixing demands); this detracts value from Crucible of Worlds as you may not have as many synergies with utility lands.
-With this in mind, I took out crucible and went up to 4/3 Foundry/Sword (I feel the combo is powerful and this improves our G1 against many decks). This is also more acceptable with green as you can play through hate rather than around it g2-3 (thanks Abrupt Decay) and because we now have Ancient Stirrings on top of all the other great ways to find stuff.
-With more reliable thoptersword, I found myself mostly regretting drawing Fatal Push (particularly as with green, we have Abrupt Decay too), so I cut 2. I also found myself able to move Collective Brutality to the sideboard, as g1 vs it's best targets is much more manageable with faster reliable thoptersword and Abrupt Decay.
-I find that G1, I'm mostly not getting value out of my MD graveyard hate (Nihil Spellbomb, though many prefer Relic of Progenitus. Moved to SB.
-Being more in on the combo g1 meant that having a singleton Time seive is surprisingly pokey. It's cheap to whir for and seals games out as early as turn 4 with a mox. I know what you're thinking; it's win more, but I assure you it's a different matter entirely having one in the MD than one in the board when you're this reliable at putting the combo together. You can just end the game turns earlier.
-Considering moving an Ensnaring Bridge to the side, since we have Stirrings to find and better thoptersword to hold with.
-Executioner's Capsule is back in the MD for now.
-Re: the sideboard, I'm wondering if I need Witchbane orb with Nature's claim and better thoptersword. I guess it's still good in some other matchups, but good enough to justify its slot? Likewise, not sure to what extent I need Thoughtseize since it is now far less critical to grab their Stony Silence/ Rest in Peace. All BB cost cards removed for now.
Hope that made sense...
This is by no means finalized (I am waiting on two more Spire of Invention and some other stuff) but I am finding the following to be effective. It genuinely feels more powerful than the deck I was on before. With this configuration the power of thoptersword is deployed consistently, and early, it feels very good.
@Magpie: I agree on most of what you said but not all of it. Time Seive really is a wasted slot. It is completely dead on it's own and the only function it has in the deck is to help you win 2-3 turns faster when you have the combo AND have a Whir of Invention in hand.
You have effectively 8 copies of Thopter Foundry in your deck plus Tezzeret to dig for them. You have 7 swords and 7 ways to dig for them. This is WAY too many. Ensnaring Bridge buys you so much time that you can dedicate those slots to valuable interaction instead of going deep on the combo. Don't lose sight of the fact that you are an Ensnaring Bridge deck with a potential combo finish. I am only playing a 2/2 split and I still find it very consistently.
Getting your last 2 Spire of Industry will make a big difference. You can't afford to be playing colorless utility lands and cast a UUU spell.
I agree that Fatal Push feels weak but they are likely a necessary evil to beat the faster and more aggressive decks. I have considered cutting them all together and just playing 3-4 Ensnaring Bridge plus collective brutality but then you play against Affinity, Burn, Zoo, Storm, CoCo and just die to not being able to remove their engine cards.
Witchbane Orb is largely for Valakut decks. These decks are going to combo kill us as early as turn 4 and likely no later than turn 6 and we have to either race or find meaningful interaction. Meaningful interaction seems like it is going to be a lot more difficult then racing. My current plan is to cut Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Fatal Push and bring in Herald of Anguish, Countersquall, Thoughtseize. We can still steal some games where they stumble with the combo but 5/5 beats is likely the best way to victory here.
Doom Blade is bad, Capsule is worse. I wouldn't play Doom Blade and I certainly wouldn't pay 1 more for it just because it is an artifact. In addition to that, if Fatal Push is weak then Capsule is terrible.
Sorry my criticisms are all out of order, i just typed them as I thought of them.
Just back from FNM on a fairly untuned BUG list w/ Stirrings and 2/1 Decay split between MB and SB. BAD BEATS. Got destroyed by UW Control (sided in Decay for against Stony Silence, drew two Decays, never saw Stony. You get the picture), then by Necro-Ooze Vizier combo where I mostly stumbled on mana because of green, then wrecked by Titanshift where my UB version feat GQ + Extraction + Crucible package for against big mana was sorely, sorely missed. Feels bad. Heh well, one for science i guess
Been absent from the threads for awhile but @reedy26 agree 100% on the Glimmervoids, they are a 4 of in my deck and never caused an issue for me. Makes Pentad more consistent on turn 2, helps abrupt decay and to push for that turn 3/4 damnation if needed. As well that 1 life we're paying for Spire can be VERY costly vs quite a few decks in the meta. Back into modern after a little time away but the addition of Whir in the deck definitely drives us towards a tier 1 deck imo.
Yo guys, been saying it for a while now and still haven't seen anyone try them - play serum visions. Way easier on the life total compared to getting turn one G for stirrings because you can play islands or shores rather than crack a fetch for breeding pool. Sets up your topdeck to draw something good turn two while protecting it from discard. Lets you keep baubles around if you want to because you know what your topdecks are. It can draw you a foundry, removal, or a tezz which stirrings can't.
Another small advantage that visions has over stirrings, is that stirrings broadcasts your play and what type of deck you're on. That might be the difference between UW control holding up mana for spell snare, or grixis mana for leak rather than playing a delve threat.
is there a reason no one is running a 1 of ironworks for infinite life/ thopters? i havent played the deck in awhile but it would seem like an auto include because whir can fetch it and close out games where you cant afford to durdle for a few turns.
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Yo guys, been saying it for a while now and still haven't seen anyone try them - play serum visions. Way easier on the life total compared to getting turn one G for stirrings because you can play islands or shores rather than crack a fetch for breeding pool. Sets up your topdeck to draw something good turn two while protecting it from discard. Lets you keep baubles around if you want to because you know what your topdecks are. It can draw you a foundry, removal, or a tezz which stirrings can't.
Another small advantage that visions has over stirrings, is that stirrings broadcasts your play and what type of deck you're on. That might be the difference between UW control holding up mana for spell snare, or grixis mana for leak rather than playing a delve threat.
Ancient Stirrings goes 5 deep for the cards we need most (Ensnaring Bridge). Serum Visions only goes 1 deep and then 2 more for the next turn. VERY different. It may be a little easier on the life total but this I'd almost always rather trade my life for velocity. Also, Abrupt Decay is very powerful.
I think trying to bait our opponent into thinking we are a different deck is negligible because they have no idea what we are on anyway.
@socketto: It is because we win the game over 90% of the time when we resolve Thopter/Sword. The terrible top deck is not worth the small chance of finding it once we are ahead to get even further ahead. It is the definition of win-more.
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U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Regarding Thopter Foundry // Sword of the Meek, I'm seeing wild swings in numbers from 4/3, 4/2, and 2/2, and folks seem pretty resolute that their individual counts are correct. In my testing of the U/B version, I get that "lost in the wilderness" feeling. After committing to a starting hand, you're on your own. The draws and lines of play are difficult to forecast. As Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas ambassador, Radouf, has remarked, the Turbo-Tezz is resilient and stabilization/wins can suddenly appear when all hope looks lost. But, it's a daunting hike. In an effort to reconcile those counts of 4/3 all the way down to 2/2, I recommend trying Crystal Ball.
In the war between going green with Ancient Stirrings or falling back on the blue mainstay Serum Visions, the goal of becoming consistent could be colorless.
In testing, I'm shuffling my top 2 cards around approximately 85% of the time
Contributes to our artifact count
3-cmc Slot isn't overcrowded
Scry tricks do dovetail in with the Bauble/Fetch/ Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas +1 draw manipulations
Flies under the radar as a threat, so it won't be countered, thus it's uncounterable
Although it has no immediate board impact, it can be used twice before your next draw step: 5 card dig. Same as Ancient Stirrings (albeit 5 times the cost )
It's been a while since I've tossed some shenanigans in the mix here, but I've been closely following the conversation. Racing089 has done a superb job as the new moderator. Contributions from new and old faces are repeatedly well formulated and informed. The thread is mightily impressive, mages.
I'm similarly ambivalent about the transition to BUG. I think the deciding factor may be the overall worth of abrupt decay. If it's only run in the sideboard, then red flags start a'flying. Nonetheless, it's a titanic answer card...and some might say necessary. But, I also subscribe to Radouf's recent mention of the accepted wisdom over at the Affinity thread: Note: I've been following Affinity talk on SS, and Enchantment removal has long been ruled out including by the top minds such as Frank Karsten -- they go Thoughtseize and Pierce. And Grid to punch through. Removal, too narrow they say.
This school of thought directly contradicts the Abrupt Decay green addition. Further, Ghirapur Æther Grid is the kind of card that can specifically punish the decks that drop Stony Silence on the board: White/x Decks with low toughness creatures. Heck, with all the access to City of Brass style lands out there now [I'm looking right at ya, Spire of Industry], why not splash red...green...and white? 5 COLOR, now we're talking some shenanigans.
Yo guys, been saying it for a while now and still haven't seen anyone try them - play serum visions. Way easier on the life total compared to getting turn one G for stirrings because you can play islands or shores rather than crack a fetch for breeding pool. Sets up your topdeck to draw something good turn two while protecting it from discard. Lets you keep baubles around if you want to because you know what your topdecks are. It can draw you a foundry, removal, or a tezz which stirrings can't.
Another small advantage that visions has over stirrings, is that stirrings broadcasts your play and what type of deck you're on. That might be the difference between UW control holding up mana for spell snare, or grixis mana for leak rather than playing a delve threat.
Ancient Stirrings goes 5 deep for the cards we need most (Ensnaring Bridge). Serum Visions only goes 1 deep and then 2 more for the next turn. VERY different. It may be a little easier on the life total but this I'd almost always rather trade my life for velocity. Also, Abrupt Decay is very powerful.
I think trying to bait our opponent into thinking we are a different deck is negligible because they have no idea what we are on anyway.
@socketto: It is because we win the game over 90% of the time when we resolve Thopter/Sword. The terrible top deck is not worth the small chance of finding it once we are ahead to get even further ahead. It is the definition of win-more.
That 90% is just patently false. The following decks basically don't care about a resolved thopter/sword:
Valakut decks
Tron
Storm
Ad nauseum
Elves
Merfolk
Abzan coco (cares a little more than the above)
Time sieve is win, not win more against those decks. In regards to krark-clan, it's significantly slower to whir for than sieve, and doesn't always win the turn you resolve it unlike sieve (because the infinite thopters you make don't have haste).
On another note, has anyone considered heroic intervention out of the board to fight tron and counter removal? It basically negates all tron's weapons outside of ugin and all is dust.
Magpie, thanks for the write-up and good job. I agree with all your points about sieve, though I would never play another copy in the board. Your excess copies of needle I find interesting (2 main, 1 side). I can relate to the feeling that the deck wants about 3 1-drop artifacts to play on curve, but I feel like all options are very situational. How have all the needles been performing? I personally like a copy of cage main, because it's the strongest hoser.
I agree with Zinch about decay being a better board option than nature's claim. You can bring it in as creature removal.
Hey Tezzerator fans! I'm a newish streamer on Twitch, and my schtick is typically trying to make content for decks that I think need more content made for them! Typically this includes Tier 2- decks and brews with newly released cards, and Modern is my usual (almost exclusive) format. Recently I've been playing around with As Foretold, but I've been a fan of Tezzeret decks for years! I'd like to play the deck on stream soon, and Radouf on Reddit pointed me here. So in addition to just promoting myself, I would also like to ask for advice in what build to show off!
I've watched Gerry's YouTube league with the deck, and I got the rare opportunity to play against Numot when he was piloting the deck when I was streaming Double Moon Walkers. I've obviously never played the deck, but I'm familiar with the concept and how it plays out to some extent. And I read the initial primer and skimmed this thread, of course. So what build should I stream with? Looks like splashing green has picked up some traction, so I imagine people are at least mildly interested in seeing how that plays before investing in it themselves. But is that worth doing without having experience with the straight UB version for comparison? I'll probably do a couple of streams with Tezz, so I think trying UB first and then doing a follow-up splashing green would be helpful.
I've attached a snip of a UB list that I made based off the initial primer with numbers that I personally like.
Looks good. My 2 cents: I'd cut the crucible, trading post, and spellskite for more copies of foundry and a jar, personally. There's also no need for three watery graves - darkslick shores is fine.
Why do you think the extra jar and foundries are better than the crucible, post, and spellskite? I can see the argument for Jar over Spellskite, since skite turns on creature removal. But you think Crucible is bad right now? And Trading Post being so versatile makes me want to keep it. With the ability to dig and tutor for artifacts that the deck has, theoretically I want a variety of cards, even if some have similar effects, over more copies of the same card.
@DimirSpy, it's great that you made it! There's a lot to say. I think starting UB then going for BUg makes sense.
On your submitted list: I see you opted out on Baubles, and that's a huge move. This puts you on the fairest, midrange-y-est of builds. No supercharged Opal starts, but also your ability to just ramp out becomes hindered; metalcraft for Opals usually come online T2-3, allowing you an extra 1-mana play à la Fatal Push -- but that is assuming a sufficient LOW-CMC artifact count, and Baubles helps tremendously with that. For reference, I linger around 24-25 total artifacts MB, and this gives you Lantern like and Affinity like starts. Eschewing Baubles also leaves you with the lowest card selection (Bauble scry) and velocity of all builds. For a build that eschew cantrips completely (Baubles, Serum Visions, Glint-Nest Crane) and that's -1 Opal from the norm, you're on 22 lands which seems low. Artifact count is also on the low end and you might find your ability to Improvise slower than you wished. Cherry on top: you seem to be leaning heavily on Ensnaring Bridge, well Bauble is super synergistic with it as it allows you to dump your hand an draw when it seems handy. Also protects a card from targeted discard for what it's worth. Aaaand allows the 56 cards deck, plus Turbo-Xerok trimming of the lands that sometimes can clutter your hand.
/edit: Second look: there's a lot of overlap between 2x Thopter-Sword (+4 Whirs), 3x Bridge (+4 Whirs), 1x Damnation, 2x Flaying Tendrils -- all these help you *not die* the fair battle of the battlefield. You don't need that many cards dedicated to that.
Well that's a lot of useful information! If you're saying that the fair/midrangey version is worse than the fast prison version, then it seems that a lot has changed since the initial primer was made. I based the mana entirely off that, and it's only six weeks old! I suppose a lot of person-hours of work can go into a deck like this in six weeks, and Bauble is now particularly important to the deck? I'm also playing 21 artifacts plus 2 mox opals, also within the parameters of the initial primer, so if these numbers are being discouraged, that could need updating.
I decided to put in a little of everything, buying into the toolbox of the deck more. I guess that's more the style I like to play. But if that's not so good right now, I can get the Baubles and play the faster prison plan. (Part of me is also hesitant to buy Baubles because I think they're even more likely to be banned than Opals, but planning for how WotC handles the banlist isn't exactly practical or helpful.)
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I think opal and bauble go together hand in hand, and without one of the others I would be less likely to play either. With the 4 of bauble it means you can have opal turned on turn 1-3 much easier where as without you rarely will have that. I'm not too suprised you think opal is lackluster when you aren't running the 4-of baubles.
I've been testing out crazy things recently. Been playing jeskai thopters online with some good results (saheeli combo board and nahiri exiling stony silences left and right). But that's not relevant here. One thing I've found throuh all the crazy testing is that Altar of the Brood is very good against control, and actually won me multiple games against valakut decks. It mills them really fast with the combo, and puts stuff in their yard for surgical effects. May be worth a slot against control in the board.
Btw, the new GW devoted druid combo is kind of tough. I'm thinking orbs of warding may be a worthwhile upgrade over witchbane orb to negate walking ballista.
EDIT: For those splashing green, Vraska out of the board could be sweet vs the decks relying on stony and rip. Not as good as nahiri, but can fight through multiple lock pieces.
The Baubles and Opals are a bit of a blocker for me at the moment. So is playing Modern in general in my area, so I haven't been able to take a list out to play and get any sort of results yet.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Honestly, Chalice on 1 is probably the most consistent, easiest way to hurt Tron. Locking out the eggs, map and Stirrings should be enough to close out the game before they naturally draw 7 lands.
Ghost Quarter lock is just too slow and inconsistent, sometimes you'll get there, woo grats, but it's not the approach I would recommend against Tron. All in on Chalice on 1 and 2, if you can manage it.
@Magpie: I agree on most of what you said but not all of it. Time Seive really is a wasted slot. It is completely dead on it's own and the only function it has in the deck is to help you win 2-3 turns faster when you have the combo AND have a Whir of Invention in hand.
You have effectively 8 copies of Thopter Foundry in your deck plus Tezzeret to dig for them. You have 7 swords and 7 ways to dig for them. This is WAY too many. Ensnaring Bridge buys you so much time that you can dedicate those slots to valuable interaction instead of going deep on the combo. Don't lose sight of the fact that you are an Ensnaring Bridge deck with a potential combo finish. I am only playing a 2/2 split and I still find it very consistently.
Getting your last 2 Spire of Industry will make a big difference. You can't afford to be playing colorless utility lands and cast a UUU spell.
I agree that Fatal Push feels weak but they are likely a necessary evil to beat the faster and more aggressive decks. I have considered cutting them all together and just playing 3-4 Ensnaring Bridge plus collective brutality but then you play against Affinity, Burn, Zoo, Storm, CoCo and just die to not being able to remove their engine cards.
Witchbane Orb is largely for Valakut decks. These decks are going to combo kill us as early as turn 4 and likely no later than turn 6 and we have to either race or find meaningful interaction. Meaningful interaction seems like it is going to be a lot more difficult then racing. My current plan is to cut Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Fatal Push and bring in Herald of Anguish, Countersquall, Thoughtseize. We can still steal some games where they stumble with the combo but 5/5 beats is likely the best way to victory here.
Doom Blade is bad, Capsule is worse. I wouldn't play Doom Blade and I certainly wouldn't pay 1 more for it just because it is an artifact. In addition to that, if Fatal Push is weak then Capsule is terrible.
Sorry my criticisms are all out of order, i just typed them as I thought of them.
My list:
2 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
4 Whir of Invention
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Trading Post
2 Welding Jar
1 Countersquall
1 Damnation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Herald of Anguish
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroclasm
1 Quicksilver Fountain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
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Another small advantage that visions has over stirrings, is that stirrings broadcasts your play and what type of deck you're on. That might be the difference between UW control holding up mana for spell snare, or grixis mana for leak rather than playing a delve threat.
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Ancient Stirrings goes 5 deep for the cards we need most (Ensnaring Bridge). Serum Visions only goes 1 deep and then 2 more for the next turn. VERY different. It may be a little easier on the life total but this I'd almost always rather trade my life for velocity. Also, Abrupt Decay is very powerful.
I think trying to bait our opponent into thinking we are a different deck is negligible because they have no idea what we are on anyway.
@socketto: It is because we win the game over 90% of the time when we resolve Thopter/Sword. The terrible top deck is not worth the small chance of finding it once we are ahead to get even further ahead. It is the definition of win-more.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
In the war between going green with Ancient Stirrings or falling back on the blue mainstay Serum Visions, the goal of becoming consistent could be colorless.
Crystal Ball
It's been a while since I've tossed some shenanigans in the mix here, but I've been closely following the conversation. Racing089 has done a superb job as the new moderator. Contributions from new and old faces are repeatedly well formulated and informed. The thread is mightily impressive, mages.
I'm similarly ambivalent about the transition to BUG. I think the deciding factor may be the overall worth of abrupt decay. If it's only run in the sideboard, then red flags start a'flying. Nonetheless, it's a titanic answer card...and some might say necessary. But, I also subscribe to Radouf's recent mention of the accepted wisdom over at the Affinity thread: Note: I've been following Affinity talk on SS, and Enchantment removal has long been ruled out including by the top minds such as Frank Karsten -- they go Thoughtseize and Pierce. And Grid to punch through. Removal, too narrow they say.
This school of thought directly contradicts the Abrupt Decay green addition. Further, Ghirapur Æther Grid is the kind of card that can specifically punish the decks that drop Stony Silence on the board: White/x Decks with low toughness creatures. Heck, with all the access to City of Brass style lands out there now [I'm looking right at ya, Spire of Industry], why not splash red...green...and white? 5 COLOR, now we're talking some shenanigans.
That 90% is just patently false. The following decks basically don't care about a resolved thopter/sword:
Valakut decks
Tron
Storm
Ad nauseum
Elves
Merfolk
Abzan coco (cares a little more than the above)
Time sieve is win, not win more against those decks. In regards to krark-clan, it's significantly slower to whir for than sieve, and doesn't always win the turn you resolve it unlike sieve (because the infinite thopters you make don't have haste).
On another note, has anyone considered heroic intervention out of the board to fight tron and counter removal? It basically negates all tron's weapons outside of ugin and all is dust.
I agree with Zinch about decay being a better board option than nature's claim. You can bring it in as creature removal.
I've watched Gerry's YouTube league with the deck, and I got the rare opportunity to play against Numot when he was piloting the deck when I was streaming Double Moon Walkers. I've obviously never played the deck, but I'm familiar with the concept and how it plays out to some extent. And I read the initial primer and skimmed this thread, of course. So what build should I stream with? Looks like splashing green has picked up some traction, so I imagine people are at least mildly interested in seeing how that plays before investing in it themselves. But is that worth doing without having experience with the straight UB version for comparison? I'll probably do a couple of streams with Tezz, so I think trying UB first and then doing a follow-up splashing green would be helpful.
I've attached a snip of a UB list that I made based off the initial primer with numbers that I personally like.
On your submitted list: I see you opted out on Baubles, and that's a huge move. This puts you on the fairest, midrange-y-est of builds. No supercharged Opal starts, but also your ability to just ramp out becomes hindered; metalcraft for Opals usually come online T2-3, allowing you an extra 1-mana play à la Fatal Push -- but that is assuming a sufficient LOW-CMC artifact count, and Baubles helps tremendously with that. For reference, I linger around 24-25 total artifacts MB, and this gives you Lantern like and Affinity like starts. Eschewing Baubles also leaves you with the lowest card selection (Bauble scry) and velocity of all builds. For a build that eschew cantrips completely (Baubles, Serum Visions, Glint-Nest Crane) and that's -1 Opal from the norm, you're on 22 lands which seems low. Artifact count is also on the low end and you might find your ability to Improvise slower than you wished. Cherry on top: you seem to be leaning heavily on Ensnaring Bridge, well Bauble is super synergistic with it as it allows you to dump your hand an draw when it seems handy. Also protects a card from targeted discard for what it's worth. Aaaand allows the 56 cards deck, plus Turbo-Xerok trimming of the lands that sometimes can clutter your hand.
/edit: Second look: there's a lot of overlap between 2x Thopter-Sword (+4 Whirs), 3x Bridge (+4 Whirs), 1x Damnation, 2x Flaying Tendrils -- all these help you *not die* the fair battle of the battlefield. You don't need that many cards dedicated to that.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I decided to put in a little of everything, buying into the toolbox of the deck more. I guess that's more the style I like to play. But if that's not so good right now, I can get the Baubles and play the faster prison plan. (Part of me is also hesitant to buy Baubles because I think they're even more likely to be banned than Opals, but planning for how WotC handles the banlist isn't exactly practical or helpful.)