I think I'm going to sleeve up a mostly standard Grixis list this week with 4 Inquisition and 4 Looting and see what mana base feels the best. I like having some number of fetches for help against Blood Moon and the free scry with Bauble. Frank Karsten recommends 14 sources of a color you expect to use on T1 and 23 sources for UUU on T3 so there is some dependence on Opal.
@the_nobodys: So I've been considering going up to 2x LOTV. One of my concerns is that this slot is something I value against the BGx decks, against which I find I often prioritize naming LOTV with a Needle effect. I initially have been splitting these 2x slots between Ashiok/LOTV to help mitigate this nobo when all the walkers and Needle effects are in post board at the same time. Do you feel the applications of LOTV still outweigh the risks of shutting down redundant copies of one of your own threats?I know you could still technically play around when you deploy Needle on LOTV, but it still puts you in a sticky situation that can be lessened by only playing 1 vs 2.
To be honest, LoTV is second on my list of auto-names in the BGx matchup, the first being scavenging ooze. So I've not found having needles/Lili to be much of a nonbo, as I'm only needling Lili if one is on the board and I have no fliers to deal with her. Plus, you can always sac your needle to foundry if you need to.
I have a set of Spellskite post-board vs. BGx, so I always want to needle Liliana to protect them from an edict. As such I've tended to not want to SB Liliana into that MU to avoid the non-bo (even though she is conceptually good here, and performs very well vs. 4c Shadow which is similar).
@the_nobodys, @TolariaWest: This is literally why I played a 1/1 split of Ashiok/LOTV the last few weeks - I couldn't make up my mind one way or the other because both of the points you mentioned had been on my mind when deciding whether to play 1 vs 2 LOTV. Like the_nobodys, I'll typically name Scooze in the dark before LOTV, but it's a heuristic that I only follow maybe like 60% of the time. I'm not playing 4x Skites like TolariaWest, but I'm also not playing Sai so I do want to prioritize locking out an opposing LOTV as I'm less likely to have thopters going without the combo. Sure, foundry can convert other artifacts into fliers for pressure but as I mentioned before, my postboard configuration for BGx trims on artifacts for impactful non-artifact spells (which is why I'm not personally playing Sai) so the artifacts I have are typically non-disposable.
I've begun testing various things again like pros/cons of Battle vs Push, an uptick in hand disruption vs maindeck spot removal at the same part of the curve (IOK vs Push), Muddle vs Collective Brutality, KCI vs Time Sieve, incorporating Ego over other sideboard slots, more Nihils and less Jars, etc. A lot of these things comes down to how comfortable I feel personally with the new curves I've constructed and I just want to see if I'm misevaluating anything that I haven't been playing/want to see the impact of removing things that I've felt were nearly locked slots in my 75. Again, less of a "what is universally right/wrong" and more of constructing the tightest 75 that I personally feel most comfortable sleeving up moving forward.
Went 3-1 last night at my LGS Modern Monday with a slew of adjustments, beating Grixis Phoenix, Affinity, Amulet Titan, and losing to Bant Spirits. Admittedly I played game 3 a bit sloppy, but he blew me out with tech that normally isn't seen like an EE game 2 and Kitaki over Stonys 2-3, which hurt considering I trimmed on spot removal slots for yesterday's list and I felt it. My hands weren't bad but he curved out really nicely. Turns out Thalia into Drogskol into Kitaki + Phantasmal can be a tough line to beat lol.
So to showcase how strong the core of the thopter/sword deck is, and how much flexibility there is among the flex spots, I just 5-0'd a MTGO comp league with this utter pile, (going a stupid 10-0 in games):
So the last week I'd been brewing a Naya Norin combo list, and running it through leagues. While it did OK, not great, the one thing I noticed was how stupidly good Auriok Champion was in the current meta, and how the Norin/Genesis chamber combo over-performed against all fair decks. So naturally I wondered if I just jammed that core together with a thopter/sword core what would happen! So I threw together a terrible mana base and hardly looked at the sideboard, and proceeded to get ultra lucky.
I played against mono-red phoenix, dredge, 4-color shadow, WB tokens, and skred, so really, all I did was hit the matchup lottery. But I think the lesson is that this deck just has so much flexibility while maintaining viability.
I've played with this combo quite a bit, only with trawler for more infinites. It's a fine choice, especially against an expected meta of more big mana and combo, and worse against interactive decks.
Good luck and let's us know how your testing goes.
So I'm getting back into magic after a while and Tezz has always been one of my favorites. Is there a thopter deck that mains a couple tezz? Id actually be interested in this archetype if I had the option of running Tezz Main.
That's what's great about this deck. U can have mb tezz if u want. Right now it seems as if the deck has shifted to find the combo as fast as possible. But u could easily put 2 or 3 in if u want to. U could make a whole different style deck that's more control based and resilient but slower.
I have a buddy that runs a tezz list with 4 tezz no whirs 1 foundry and no swords and he rocks it at fnm. Lots of discard and removal. And he runs glint-nest cranes. I've recently started running cranes as well and I really like them. They dig and provide good early protection
I've been watching a lot of your vids on twitch tolariawest and im not a huge fan of how shedder has been playing out. More often than not I see u milling yourself but u keep putting cards u wish you had in your hand in the yard. I feel if your gonna do that your going to want 1 or 2 academy ruin in your deck. Or a few scrap trawlers. Your playing it as a gy in hand deck but you have no recision nother than the shredders themselves which are expensive to use.
I think you are a little mana light, with 20 lands, no cantrips, no opal, and plenty of high CMC permanents. Getting bridge online in time will certainly involving thoughtseizing yourself at times. If you're going to go this route, I would play a lot more removal like battle at the bridge, so that your walkers don't get killed as soon as they enter.
Took it to my LGS and came third going 3 and 1. Only losing to Tron 2 0, but also going 6 and 0 for the rest of the match. Faced Stompy, BR Discard, and Mardu Pyromancer. Let me know what you guys think.
Hey Franx13 - You maindeck is nearly identical to mine. Maindeck Tez with a 21st land over Azcanta and a flex slot has been something I've been adjusting back and forth recently. Your sideboard is vastly different though and there are a few things I wanna touch on.
1) 4th Bridge - This is probably a wasted slot. 3 Bridge + 4 Whir has been plenty, even in the matchups where you really want it. If you're not maindecking the 4th, I think the sideboard slot it occupies could be of greater use for a different matchup (or even spot removal if you need to buy more time against creature decks thaht fold to bridge).
2) JTMS - This PW is good, but toe to toe I don't believe it's better than Tez AOB, and it's not like the split gives you more substantial advantages. If you want to diversify your threats against decks that bring in hate, you typically want to either look at the 2-3 mana threats that can get around early countermagic turns/fights opposing quick curves, or simply play more Tez. This is certainly personal preference though, but is what my testing has lead me to.
3) Trophy vs Decay - This comes down to whether you prefer the universal spell vs the ability to fight through counterspells for the UW matchup. It's worth noting that while you don't often want to use this as a Terminate, sometimes you can't afford to hold onto it and trophy giving them a land vs decay which doesn't can swing the advantage out of your favor in the early turns.
4) Padeem - I've recently followed what The_Nobodys and others have advocated, which is ignore the safety net Padeem gives you against spells like Ancient Grudge a bit and instead play more standalone threats that aren't hit by artifact destruction. I love Padeem's textbox, but the CMC has been a bit of an issue.
To each their own though! You certainly know your LGS meta better than any of us, so i'm sure each of these slots were well thought-out and are justifiable. Glad to hear your success story!
Thank you the nobodys for replying.bit was super dead around here for awhile. You are right but I have a pretty low artifact count as it is for tezz. Originally I was making to showcase heart of Kiran but eventually decided to take it out as walkers behind a bridge is simply better. It was just a concept but I think I'll be sticking to just thopter whir. I keep switching tezz between sb and mb though. I like having the alt wincon but 4 Mana is a lot just can't think of a better one. Not a huge fan of shredders after watching tolariawests vids. They are nice but really slow and I feel they should stay in lantern where they really shine
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Something like this (20 U/15 B/14 R):
2 Spirebluff Canal
4 Spire of Industry
3 Glimmervoid
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
I've begun testing various things again like pros/cons of Battle vs Push, an uptick in hand disruption vs maindeck spot removal at the same part of the curve (IOK vs Push), Muddle vs Collective Brutality, KCI vs Time Sieve, incorporating Ego over other sideboard slots, more Nihils and less Jars, etc. A lot of these things comes down to how comfortable I feel personally with the new curves I've constructed and I just want to see if I'm misevaluating anything that I haven't been playing/want to see the impact of removing things that I've felt were nearly locked slots in my 75. Again, less of a "what is universally right/wrong" and more of constructing the tightest 75 that I personally feel most comfortable sleeving up moving forward.
Went 3-1 last night at my LGS Modern Monday with a slew of adjustments, beating Grixis Phoenix, Affinity, Amulet Titan, and losing to Bant Spirits. Admittedly I played game 3 a bit sloppy, but he blew me out with tech that normally isn't seen like an EE game 2 and Kitaki over Stonys 2-3, which hurt considering I trimmed on spot removal slots for yesterday's list and I felt it. My hands weren't bad but he curved out really nicely. Turns out Thalia into Drogskol into Kitaki + Phantasmal can be a tough line to beat lol.
1 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Genesis Chamber
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
Creatures: 11
4 Norin the Wary
2 Bomat Courier
2 Soul Warden
3 Auriok Champion
4 Faithless Looting
4 Whir of Invention
Lands: 21
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Inspiring Vantage
3 Spirebluff Canal
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Damping Sphere
1 Spellskite
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
3 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Wear//Tear
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Detention Sphere
1 Settle the Wreckage
So the last week I'd been brewing a Naya Norin combo list, and running it through leagues. While it did OK, not great, the one thing I noticed was how stupidly good Auriok Champion was in the current meta, and how the Norin/Genesis chamber combo over-performed against all fair decks. So naturally I wondered if I just jammed that core together with a thopter/sword core what would happen! So I threw together a terrible mana base and hardly looked at the sideboard, and proceeded to get ultra lucky.
I played against mono-red phoenix, dredge, 4-color shadow, WB tokens, and skred, so really, all I did was hit the matchup lottery. But I think the lesson is that this deck just has so much flexibility while maintaining viability.
Good luck and let's us know how your testing goes.
Land(21)
4x Island
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventor's Fair
1x Spire of Industry
Artifact(25)
3x Mox Opal
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Welding Jar
1x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Thopter Foundry
3x Sword of the Meek
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Spellskite
1x Pithing Needle
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Bottled Cloister
3x Fatal Push
3x Collective Brutality
3x Serum Visions
4x Whir of Invention
PlanesWalker(1)
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Assassin's Trophy
2x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Spellskite
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Torpor Orb
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Unmoored Ego
1x Damping Sphere
Took it to my LGS and came third going 3 and 1. Only losing to Tron 2 0, but also going 6 and 0 for the rest of the match. Faced Stompy, BR Discard, and Mardu Pyromancer. Let me know what you guys think.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
1) 4th Bridge - This is probably a wasted slot. 3 Bridge + 4 Whir has been plenty, even in the matchups where you really want it. If you're not maindecking the 4th, I think the sideboard slot it occupies could be of greater use for a different matchup (or even spot removal if you need to buy more time against creature decks thaht fold to bridge).
2) JTMS - This PW is good, but toe to toe I don't believe it's better than Tez AOB, and it's not like the split gives you more substantial advantages. If you want to diversify your threats against decks that bring in hate, you typically want to either look at the 2-3 mana threats that can get around early countermagic turns/fights opposing quick curves, or simply play more Tez. This is certainly personal preference though, but is what my testing has lead me to.
3) Trophy vs Decay - This comes down to whether you prefer the universal spell vs the ability to fight through counterspells for the UW matchup. It's worth noting that while you don't often want to use this as a Terminate, sometimes you can't afford to hold onto it and trophy giving them a land vs decay which doesn't can swing the advantage out of your favor in the early turns.
4) Padeem - I've recently followed what The_Nobodys and others have advocated, which is ignore the safety net Padeem gives you against spells like Ancient Grudge a bit and instead play more standalone threats that aren't hit by artifact destruction. I love Padeem's textbox, but the CMC has been a bit of an issue.
To each their own though! You certainly know your LGS meta better than any of us, so i'm sure each of these slots were well thought-out and are justifiable. Glad to hear your success story!