How important is it really to get sac outlets for wishclaw? Obviously, you aren't handning wishclaw over to a combo player. But against decks like control, or jund, or even burn, or humans, if they use it they're probably just getting an answer for what you just got, then you get to wish again on your turn. Wishclaw is also only being used by you if you can comlplete a combo. So, it either goes (assuming no engineer):
1. You have a Foundry, you wish for sword. This is the best situation, because you can sac wischlaw to foundry before ability resolves.
2. You have a Sword and wish for a Foundry. This is obviously a worse situation, because opponent will get a wish. But if it's a fair matchup, their wish will probably just be some form of removal for foundry, and you will have gotten to make thopters and then you will get a chance to wish again.
3. You have nothing, you wish for Urza because value. This is probably the riskiest, but against Jund for instance, what are they going to get? Their removal can't get both urza and the token.
How important is it really to get sac outlets for wishclaw? Obviously, you aren't handning wishclaw over to a combo player. But against decks like control, or jund, or even burn, or humans, if they use it they're probably just getting an answer for what you just got, then you get to wish again on your turn. Wishclaw is also only being used by you if you can comlplete a combo. So, it either goes (assuming no engineer):
1. You have a Foundry, you wish for sword. This is the best situation, because you can sac wischlaw to foundry before ability resolves.
2. You have a Sword and wish for a Foundry. This is obviously a worse situation, because opponent will get a wish. But if it's a fair matchup, their wish will probably just be some form of removal for foundry, and you will have gotten to make thopters and then you will get a chance to wish again.
3. You have nothing, you wish for Urza because value. This is probably the riskiest, but against Jund for instance, what are they going to get? Their removal can't get both urza and the token.
I consider it pretty important that I always remove my opponent's ability to wish for anything with Wishclaw Talisman to the best of my ability, especially post-board, because they can always wish for something disastrous. UW Control can wish for a board wipe maindeck or Stony Silence or graveyard hate post-board (or even something like Cleansing Nova in messed-up metas). Jund can wish for Scavenging Ooze or Kolaghan's Command maindeck or Collector Ouphe or Plague Engineer post-board. Humans can wish for Meddling Mage (and potentially name what we just tutored for if we're out of luck and couldn't play it in time, especially if we have an incomplete combo on the table) or Deputy of Detention (or, in messed-up metas, Plague Engineer post-board). Burn can tutor for that last lethal burn spell or just a plain old Skullcrack. (Never underestimate Burn's ability to bluff having more burn spells in hand than it actually has.)
I actually default to tutoring for Teferi, Time Raveler if I have no relevant board presence, bounce Wishclaw with him, and tutor again. However, too many times already, the only combo piece I have is Urza and I cannot cast Teferi TR with my current mana base. At those times, I play Wishclaw and do not wish with it.
So far, the only times I've wished with Wishclaw and didn't immediately sacrifice it, bounce it, or neutralize it with Oko, Thief of Crowns are when I tutored for Urza to complete the infinite combo that turn.
I would imagine wishclaw is being boarded out on the draw nearly every time, and often on the play as well after sideboards come in. Although, if it's against a combo deck that folds to ego, I probably keep it in. Good point on the teferi, but that's even more reason not to include extra cards to hedge against opponents wishing, right?
I'm mainly testing Oko because he makes (close to useless) artifacts with his +2, turns artifacts and creatures into ability-free 3/3 Elks with his +1, exchanges my more useless rocks with their more useful guys with 3 power or less with his -5, and starts at 4 loyalty for only 3 mana. I was hoping he would be able to help this deck slog through Stony Silence effects, and he can to a certain extent from my testing. The Food tokens he makes often aren't fast enough against Burn, though. Additionally, his -5 gets somewhat useless whenever I've got Ensnaring Bridge, although he can steal all the opposing creatures (that can be targeted) and then turn Bridge into an Elk if left unchecked. He's got cool synergy with this deck's creatures, though, and his +1 is quite good at neutralizing opposing stuff.
I'm still on the fence about whether he or Teferi, Time Raveler is better in this deck - Teferi TR's cantrip bounce is great, but unless I'm against Ux Control or a Cascade/Suspend card, his static ability isn't enough reason for me to play him instead of sandbagging him until he can bounce something. Teferi TR makes Wishclaw Talisman significantly better, though, and Oko is destabilizing my mana base enough that I'm considering he might need to go so I can test Emry, Lurker of the Loch better.
i'n on Teferi, Time Raveler a kind a time, and he saves me a lot of time and games (prevent urza get removed). Bouncing stony silence or problematic hates.
I'm in doubt if Oko have any chance to play and get any copy in pre-sale to pay at last cheaper. 2 Emry and 1 wishclaw i guaranteed
I have a feeling that 4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch will be what ends up being correct, and that maybe some number of Jeskai Ascendancy get included in lists because of its potential being an insta-win with Emry and a mishra's bauble. At least, that's certainly what I'll be trying out as soon as I can get the cards on MTGO.
Just a refresher, with Emry and a bauble in play or the graveyard, and an ascendancy on board, you can cast bauble over and over, make emry lethal and swing. Or you can loot enough to put 2 opals in the graveyard, get infinite mana, and cast something from your deck that can close out the game. The cost of a few ascendancies in lists seems pretty low.
I have a feeling that 4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch will be what ends up being correct, and that maybe some number of Jeskai Ascendancy get included in lists because of its potential being an insta-win with Emry and a mishra's bauble. At least, that's certainly what I'll be trying out as soon as I can get the cards on MTGO.
Just a refresher, with Emry and a bauble in play or the graveyard, and an ascendancy on board, you can cast bauble over and over, make emry lethal and swing. Or you can loot enough to put 2 opals in the graveyard, get infinite mana, and cast something from your deck that can close out the game. The cost of a few ascendancies in lists seems pretty low.
Double infinite combos does seem delicious, but I suspect they'll grow their own Whirza variant a la the Whirzablade lists. Would those lists drop Goblin Engineer/SFM for Emry? Would they play Wishclaw Talisman as additional tutors?
I've been playing around with several 5 color lists, so really anything is possible in the deck's numerous flex spots. (Bring to Light for Urza is pretty funny). In the list I posted, you could easily swap out the singleton engineer, or add another, or swap one of the ascendancies for a wishclaw and change the manabase to have a basic swamp.
The more I think about ascendancy as a card in this deck, the more I like it as a "do-nothing" combo piece. Without an Emry on board, jeskai makes Urza an even better mana producer with his construct. If you happen to have a few thopters lieing around, then he becomes really degenerate with ascendancy. Ascendancy also pumps a board of thopters, makes whir a "free" pump and loot with thopters, and can help dig in the lategame by offering free lootings.
All that said, it's still a card that probably lingers in hand in most matchups. As random 3 drops go, teferi has more wide ranging utility, so we'll see.
As far as I can tell, this list combos off more slowly than a more-Witching Well version. From my testing so far, this still combos off often enough against Burn, and it turns out that Dredge has been nerfed enough that this deck often doesn't need the graveyard hate maindeck. This list is tuned more to try to beat Jund and Gx Tron in comparison, although the Gx Tron match-up is still in Tron's favour. This deck spurts out Turn 1 Emry way more often than Turn 2 infinite combos, at any rate.
Sticking Jeskai Ascendancy in the deck makes Emry an absolute removal magnet, to the point that some opponents will kill her at sorcery speed just to prevent an infinite combo next turn. This is probably helping my Burn match-up, as Emry may absorb a burn spell for the team there.
We'd somehow both agreed that 2 Jeskai Ascendancy is the correct number--enough that Emry probably won't mill them all, not enough to make its nature as one of the worst cards in the deck truly apparent. Outside of the combo, I've ended up using Ascendancy as a Thopter anthem and a multi-loot the most often--the Urza scenarios haven't happened for me yet.
The main Emry Ascendant win con is Pyrite Spellbomb, as I've used that spellbomb to kill quite a few creatures already outside of the combo.
The main Thopter-Sword-Urza win con is Hammer of Purphoros because I can mill it with Emry and still be able to retrieve it, it grants Haste so I have a nonzero chance of comboing off the turn I land Emry, and I'm scared of Surgical Extraction breaking up Emry combos, so unlike Lightning Greaves, it doesn't need Emry in order to win--I just need to make a whole bunch of hasty Thopters. I've occasionally made a Golem with the Hammer, although the Hammer is also one of the worst cards in the deck (worse than Ghirapur Aether Grid).
I initially had 2 Goblin Engineers, but then found that this list is even more vulnerable to graveyard hate and Stony Silence effects than usual, so I dropped down to 1 Goblin Engineer. I upped Teferi, Time Raveler to a 2-of to compensate, partially because he lets me not drop the number of Wishclaw Talisman enablers, and I already went down to 7 of them not named Whir of Invention.
Early versions maindecked Spine of Ish Sah, but I tested and found it too slow for the current meta. I swapped it out for Galvanic Blast because this deck can combo off in devastating fashion--it just needs everything in its way gone, and Galvanic Blast often kills Scavenging Ooze and Karn, the Great Creator.
Because this deck mainly needs to worry about hate, I've actually been quite tempted to stick Oko, Thief of Crowns in this deck as essentially a Generous Gift machine and therefore maindeckable anti-hate, but I already found Grixis splash white and green to be borderline too unstable in my regular list, this list needs Jeskai even more strongly than my regular list wants Grixis, and Wishclaw Talisman is better than Oko in this deck as a much-needed speed boost, especially against fast decks.
Nice tester decklist, and great write up. I like the spellbomb as an emry win-con, because when you're going infinite you can both use it to burn out an opponent after getting a bunch of mana, or you can just clear a blocker and swing with emry (which is a nice time saver online).
I'm not seeing the purpose of the hammer. I get that you can drop it, and then all your emrys will be hasty. But since an opponent can always respond to her ability and bolt or push her, the haste doesn't seem that relevant. Spellskite is all-around useful, but if you switch it for a welding jar, that just gives Emry one more artifact that along with the baubles will let her start to infinite (and will help cast her turn 1). Maybe skite is just too good, though, now that we have 8 must-answer blue creatures.
@the nobodys has 5-0'd a MTGO Modern League with Witching Well; ask him/her for details because I haven't tested the Well enough in Whirza.
I tried Emry in a Whirza build the nobodys and I were discussing earlier in the thread; she's better than I thought (at least with Jeskai Ascendancy) and lures removal even harder than Goblin Engineer does. Her self-mill doesn't always compensate for Goblin Engineer's artifact Entomb but gets shockingly close on average. Mishra's Bauble is her best friend. She comes down on Turn 1 at a higher than Magical Christmas Land rate. She's both part of an infinite combo and helps dig for the other one. She's actually been pretty good (even if she makes the deck weaker to graveyard hate and Stony Silence effects, especially since you want to run 4 of her).
Urza...Outcome?! Some lists have been running Paradoxical Outcome over Whirs. looks like they've fit Emry, Lurker of the Loch into the list now. No Ascendancy?!? Mono U?! What do y'all think?
Harlan looks to be on a very similar Whirza list from SCG Dallas. Hope his team takes it so i don't have to change my list! LMAO! No Witching Well! My foils are on the way.
@pasngr46n2 - It's times like this that I regret not making a Paradoxical Urza thread (I believe those lists are closer in spirit to Storm-like combo decks than to Whirza, although the midrange game of the latest lists is impressively good).
Guess I'd better make a Paradoxical Urza thread soon, eh?
Urza...Outcome?! Some lists have been running Paradoxical Outcome over Whirs. looks like they've fit Emry, Lurker of the Loch into the list now. No Ascendancy?!? Mono U?! What do y'all think?
Harlan looks to be on a very similar Whirza list from SCG Dallas. Hope his team takes it so i don't have to change my list! LMAO! No Witching Well! My foils are on the way.
Just curious, is nexus of fate necessary for the deck? I haven't played with that card and I was just curious
After playing with Emry quite a bit, I've found she's much better in PO Urza (paradoxical urza) than in Whirza. It's best to think of these as two distinct decks. PO Urza is much more combo, storm oriented as Lectrys pointed out, and it has fewer flex spots because the deck relies more on synergies and having a mass of 0 CMC artifacts. PO Urza may be the current best overall deck in modern, atm.
Thopter Sword Urza is still quite good, and my preference. I've gone down to 2 Emry's (and 2 engineers), cut the Ascendancy, and upped the planeswalker count. Currently sitting at 2 T3feri, 2 Karn, TGC. Wishing well is quite nice, currently on 3.
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1. You have a Foundry, you wish for sword. This is the best situation, because you can sac wischlaw to foundry before ability resolves.
2. You have a Sword and wish for a Foundry. This is obviously a worse situation, because opponent will get a wish. But if it's a fair matchup, their wish will probably just be some form of removal for foundry, and you will have gotten to make thopters and then you will get a chance to wish again.
3. You have nothing, you wish for Urza because value. This is probably the riskiest, but against Jund for instance, what are they going to get? Their removal can't get both urza and the token.
I consider it pretty important that I always remove my opponent's ability to wish for anything with Wishclaw Talisman to the best of my ability, especially post-board, because they can always wish for something disastrous. UW Control can wish for a board wipe maindeck or Stony Silence or graveyard hate post-board (or even something like Cleansing Nova in messed-up metas). Jund can wish for Scavenging Ooze or Kolaghan's Command maindeck or Collector Ouphe or Plague Engineer post-board. Humans can wish for Meddling Mage (and potentially name what we just tutored for if we're out of luck and couldn't play it in time, especially if we have an incomplete combo on the table) or Deputy of Detention (or, in messed-up metas, Plague Engineer post-board). Burn can tutor for that last lethal burn spell or just a plain old Skullcrack. (Never underestimate Burn's ability to bluff having more burn spells in hand than it actually has.)
I actually default to tutoring for Teferi, Time Raveler if I have no relevant board presence, bounce Wishclaw with him, and tutor again. However, too many times already, the only combo piece I have is Urza and I cannot cast Teferi TR with my current mana base. At those times, I play Wishclaw and do not wish with it.
So far, the only times I've wished with Wishclaw and didn't immediately sacrifice it, bounce it, or neutralize it with Oko, Thief of Crowns are when I tutored for Urza to complete the infinite combo that turn.
I'm mainly testing Oko because he makes (close to useless) artifacts with his +2, turns artifacts and creatures into ability-free 3/3 Elks with his +1, exchanges my more useless rocks with their more useful guys with 3 power or less with his -5, and starts at 4 loyalty for only 3 mana. I was hoping he would be able to help this deck slog through Stony Silence effects, and he can to a certain extent from my testing. The Food tokens he makes often aren't fast enough against Burn, though. Additionally, his -5 gets somewhat useless whenever I've got Ensnaring Bridge, although he can steal all the opposing creatures (that can be targeted) and then turn Bridge into an Elk if left unchecked. He's got cool synergy with this deck's creatures, though, and his +1 is quite good at neutralizing opposing stuff.
I'm still on the fence about whether he or Teferi, Time Raveler is better in this deck - Teferi TR's cantrip bounce is great, but unless I'm against Ux Control or a Cascade/Suspend card, his static ability isn't enough reason for me to play him instead of sandbagging him until he can bounce something. Teferi TR makes Wishclaw Talisman significantly better, though, and Oko is destabilizing my mana base enough that I'm considering he might need to go so I can test Emry, Lurker of the Loch better.
I'm in doubt if Oko have any chance to play and get any copy in pre-sale to pay at last cheaper. 2 Emry and 1 wishclaw i guaranteed
Just a refresher, with Emry and a bauble in play or the graveyard, and an ascendancy on board, you can cast bauble over and over, make emry lethal and swing. Or you can loot enough to put 2 opals in the graveyard, get infinite mana, and cast something from your deck that can close out the game. The cost of a few ascendancies in lists seems pretty low.
My decklist to try out:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Witching Well
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Damping Sphere
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
1 Goblin Engineer
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
2 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Whir of Invention
4 Prismatic Vista
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Spire of Industry
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Glass Casket
1 Pithing Needle
1 Walking Ballista
1 Teferi, Time Raveller
2 Deputy of Detention
3 Battle at the Bridge
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lightning Helix
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
Double infinite combos does seem delicious, but I suspect they'll grow their own Whirza variant a la the Whirzablade lists. Would those lists drop Goblin Engineer/SFM for Emry? Would they play Wishclaw Talisman as additional tutors?
https://magic.facetofacegames.com/the-whirza-sideboard-guide/
All that said, it's still a card that probably lingers in hand in most matchups. As random 3 drops go, teferi has more wide ranging utility, so we'll see.
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Spire of Industry
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
Creatures
1 Goblin Engineer
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
1 Spellskite
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Wishclaw Talisman
2 Jeskai Ascendancy
2 Whir of Invention
1 Galvanic Blast
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Welding Jar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Damping Sphere
1 Wear // Tear
1 Path to Exile
1 Negate
1 Generous Gift
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Collective Brutality
1 Glass Casket
As far as I can tell, this list combos off more slowly than a more-Witching Well version. From my testing so far, this still combos off often enough against Burn, and it turns out that Dredge has been nerfed enough that this deck often doesn't need the graveyard hate maindeck. This list is tuned more to try to beat Jund and Gx Tron in comparison, although the Gx Tron match-up is still in Tron's favour. This deck spurts out Turn 1 Emry way more often than Turn 2 infinite combos, at any rate.
Sticking Jeskai Ascendancy in the deck makes Emry an absolute removal magnet, to the point that some opponents will kill her at sorcery speed just to prevent an infinite combo next turn. This is probably helping my Burn match-up, as Emry may absorb a burn spell for the team there.
We'd somehow both agreed that 2 Jeskai Ascendancy is the correct number--enough that Emry probably won't mill them all, not enough to make its nature as one of the worst cards in the deck truly apparent. Outside of the combo, I've ended up using Ascendancy as a Thopter anthem and a multi-loot the most often--the Urza scenarios haven't happened for me yet.
The main Emry Ascendant win con is Pyrite Spellbomb, as I've used that spellbomb to kill quite a few creatures already outside of the combo.
The main Thopter-Sword-Urza win con is Hammer of Purphoros because I can mill it with Emry and still be able to retrieve it, it grants Haste so I have a nonzero chance of comboing off the turn I land Emry, and I'm scared of Surgical Extraction breaking up Emry combos, so unlike Lightning Greaves, it doesn't need Emry in order to win--I just need to make a whole bunch of hasty Thopters. I've occasionally made a Golem with the Hammer, although the Hammer is also one of the worst cards in the deck (worse than Ghirapur Aether Grid).
I initially had 2 Goblin Engineers, but then found that this list is even more vulnerable to graveyard hate and Stony Silence effects than usual, so I dropped down to 1 Goblin Engineer. I upped Teferi, Time Raveler to a 2-of to compensate, partially because he lets me not drop the number of Wishclaw Talisman enablers, and I already went down to 7 of them not named Whir of Invention.
Early versions maindecked Spine of Ish Sah, but I tested and found it too slow for the current meta. I swapped it out for Galvanic Blast because this deck can combo off in devastating fashion--it just needs everything in its way gone, and Galvanic Blast often kills Scavenging Ooze and Karn, the Great Creator.
Because this deck mainly needs to worry about hate, I've actually been quite tempted to stick Oko, Thief of Crowns in this deck as essentially a Generous Gift machine and therefore maindeckable anti-hate, but I already found Grixis splash white and green to be borderline too unstable in my regular list, this list needs Jeskai even more strongly than my regular list wants Grixis, and Wishclaw Talisman is better than Oko in this deck as a much-needed speed boost, especially against fast decks.
I'm not seeing the purpose of the hammer. I get that you can drop it, and then all your emrys will be hasty. But since an opponent can always respond to her ability and bolt or push her, the haste doesn't seem that relevant. Spellskite is all-around useful, but if you switch it for a welding jar, that just gives Emry one more artifact that along with the baubles will let her start to infinite (and will help cast her turn 1). Maybe skite is just too good, though, now that we have 8 must-answer blue creatures.
@the nobodys has 5-0'd a MTGO Modern League with Witching Well; ask him/her for details because I haven't tested the Well enough in Whirza.
I tried Emry in a Whirza build the nobodys and I were discussing earlier in the thread; she's better than I thought (at least with Jeskai Ascendancy) and lures removal even harder than Goblin Engineer does. Her self-mill doesn't always compensate for Goblin Engineer's artifact Entomb but gets shockingly close on average. Mishra's Bauble is her best friend. She comes down on Turn 1 at a higher than Magical Christmas Land rate. She's both part of an infinite combo and helps dig for the other one. She's actually been pretty good (even if she makes the deck weaker to graveyard hate and Stony Silence effects, especially since you want to run 4 of her).
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
2 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
2 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
1 Snow-Covered Forest
7 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Watery Grave
2 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Wishclaw Talisman
3 Witching Well
1 Nexus of Fate
4 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Mox Amber
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Fatal Push
2 Stoic Rebuttal
2 Veil of Summer
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dead of Winter
2 Thoughtseize
Harlan looks to be on a very similar Whirza list from SCG Dallas. Hope his team takes it so i don't have to change my list! LMAO! No Witching Well! My foils are on the way.
Guess I'd better make a Paradoxical Urza thread soon, eh?
Just curious, is nexus of fate necessary for the deck? I haven't played with that card and I was just curious
Thopter Sword Urza is still quite good, and my preference. I've gone down to 2 Emry's (and 2 engineers), cut the Ascendancy, and upped the planeswalker count. Currently sitting at 2 T3feri, 2 Karn, TGC. Wishing well is quite nice, currently on 3.