To answer your question, I think it doesn't make the cut. If you're using it to make tokens with engineer, I can't imagine the board state where the few 1/1's you're making are going to make a difference over the scenario of drawing cards by recurring astrolabe. Sword getting extracted is actually pretty rare, and usually only happens when an opponent casts a turn 1 or 2 discard into surgical.
My personal opinion is that all 2 cmc "value" targets for engineer, such as wellspring and schematic, are win-more. Engineer should be fetching combo pieces primarily, and if that is a risky route for whatever reason, then he should be fetching astrolabe to draw cards. Why spend valuable deck slots on these slight upgrades to astrolabe that could be more low-to-the-ground cards like serum visions, or removal, or additional silver bullets to shore up week matchups, or alternate win-cons like aether grid?
Thanks for the reply and you do make a great point.
I only play one and it's in place of the second wellspring so I still have access to both.
Don't get me wrong, combo pieces are my main target but I suppose I found it very useful in my local meta where almost every deck is running surgical main and various aggro decks are also a thing, so having the early blockers preserving my life has been useful.
Interesting points: the 10th place deck plays no trawler or mind stones and opts for 21 lands and the full playset of prism (and a one-of paradox engine main!).
Both lists playing only 3 copies of engineer and 3 copies of whir.
Looks like there's still quite a few flex spots to play around with but I think this just solidifies us as a legit archetype thats here to compete and stay.
I still like Mystic Forge better than Paradox Engine in this deck, anyway; I believe the disadvantages Mystic Forge has of getting hosed by (possibly our own) Grafdigger's Cage, getting bricked by nonartifact spells (in addition to lands, which both get bricked by), and getting bricked by not enough mana are outweighed by Mystic Forge not needing Urza, costing 1 mana less, and burning up 1 land per turn instead of getting bricked by it.
Ya, Paradox Engine lets you combo with Urza even with a Stony Silence on the board. Apparently the guy who played that did that a few times. You do need a bit of luck to not hit a string of lands, especially early on, but then once you're rolling you should be able to play out your whole deck pretty much. Tap all your artifacts for mana, use Urza's 5 to cast anything, untap all those artifacts, probably netting mana each time to help for when you do hit lands off the ability.
I'm not sure it's the way to go, but it could well be, it's a nice option to have when everyone is hating on your thopter sword combo, and you just win with this instead
I haven't been very active lately, because of lack of time to brew, but I've been tweaking the deck these past few days and wanted to share the list that I've come up with so far.
I still like whir too much to play only 3 copies and I hate having thopter/sword in play + whir in hand but nothing else to tutor for (that would win me the game), that's why I'm going with infinite turns. Besides, without Urza, it is still the best way to win against Tron.
Yesterday I've came up with the idea that maybe it is no longer that far fetched to just dump the enchantment removal from the SB and go with 4 Altar of the Brood + 3 Sai, Master Thopterist.
What do you guys think? Has anyone tried that so far?
Well I ended up going 1-2 with the deck, I will say it has been the worst outing in weeks of playing the deck but I tried a few new changes.
-2 Mind stone +2 Pentad Prism
-1 Thopter Foundry + Ghirapur Aether Grid
-1 Goblin Engineer + 1 Whir of Invention
Plus adjusted the lands to get Inventors' Fair and Cavern of souls (all the creatures are Artificer)
Games 1 GB Elves: 1-2
Match 1: he landed a early shaman on the pack and never pumped his dorks
Match 2: Bridge Lock
Match 3: just too fast for me to get set
Game 2 Valakut 1-2
Match 1: just to fast and couldn't the get the combo in time
Match 2: opening hand " 2 bauble, mox opal, Inventor's fair, Thopter foundry, sword of the meek, bridge
Match 3: I had him locked up with witchbane orb and bridge with spellskite but eventually got enough artifact hate
Game 3: 8 Rack 2-1
Match 1: destroyed my hand to fast
Match 2: I was able to draw plenty of cards and gain life
Match 3: he never got a rack card, and i got a early orb with urza out.
Overall, the deck never gets blown out and it is super fun to play plus can be very difficult at times. I never once needed Pentad prism in the games, aether grid is nice win con in the deck. I will say I like having three Whirs in the deck and I used them all the time actually for searching for pieces. I will say I am not the biggest fan of scrap trawler and I don't think he is needed.I have used him multiple weeks now and I never really get to abuse its ability.
I think you could open a few spots in the deck
-1 Scrap trawler
-2 pentad prism
-1 Nihl Spellbomb
I think could be interesting cards to try out for MD
Paradox engine
hangarback walker
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
MD Engineering Explosives
Chalice of the void
Played against 2 UW, Jund, Valakut. I wouldn't go under 4 foundry, when your plan is to T2 goblin for sword, then have the highest % of hitting either Whir or Foundry itself.
Might go down back to 20 lands, but when I board in so many 4 drops (Tezz), it seems necessary.
So I watched someone stream UW teferi/karn whirza last night and I’m convinced it will play a part in the meta now. It’s certainly slower than grixis but can interact better with the top decks post board and is likely the mirror breaker.
So I watched someone stream UW teferi/karn whirza last night and I’m convinced it will play a part in the meta now. It’s certainly slower than grixis but can interact better with the top decks post board and is likely the mirror breaker.
Has anyone tested thirst for knowledge in this new urza deck. I can see it helping goblin engineer for moving cards into the graveyard and helping with card draw.
Kanister streamed that deck yesterday and seemed pretty unimpressed with it. I'm not sold on what Karn really adds to the deck
Agree. I've tried jamming Karn and Thopter/Sword for a while (pre Horizons, too) and Karn just doesn't add much in a direction that the deck tends to want to go.
@St3ncil - I've thought about Bitter Ordeal, but imagine it's turn 3 against a combo deck. Wouldn't you much rather have an Unmoored Ego in hand?
Played against 2 UW, Jund, Valakut. I wouldn't go under 4 foundry, when your plan is to T2 goblin for sword, then have the highest % of hitting either Whir or Foundry itself.
Might go down back to 20 lands, but when I board in so many 4 drops (Tezz), it seems necessary.
Nice work and really like your list! How are you finding Tezzeret and Time Sieve? They’re pet cards of mine and eager to get them into the deck so keen to hear your thoughts.
Played against 2 UW, Jund, Valakut. I wouldn't go under 4 foundry, when your plan is to T2 goblin for sword, then have the highest % of hitting either Whir or Foundry itself.
Might go down back to 20 lands, but when I board in so many 4 drops (Tezz), it seems necessary.
Nice work and really like your list! How are you finding Tezzeret and Time Sieve? They’re pet cards of mine and eager to get them into the deck so keen to hear your thoughts.
do you miss not have a white land for help with teferi?
Yesterday I've came up with the idea that maybe it is no longer that far fetched to just dump the enchantment removal from the SB and go with 4 Altar of the Brood + 3 Sai, Master Thopterist.
What do you guys think? Has anyone tried that so far?
I tried altar of the brood in the side way back when. It was only good against UW control and stuff like Scapeshift, and that was back when our maindeck didn't present as robust a threat suite. Today, Altar would be a poor sideboard choice, as it has no utility outside of being a win-con and a slow one compared with other options.
But to your first point, dumping enchantment removal for me looks like shifting to more flexible answers. I play 2 Teferi maindeck, which can bounce problem permanents, and from the sideboard, I play 2 Deputy of Detention, which can obviously hit enchantments, but is also good against decks like dredge.
Played against 2 UW, Jund, Valakut. I wouldn't go under 4 foundry, when your plan is to T2 goblin for sword, then have the highest % of hitting either Whir or Foundry itself.
Might go down back to 20 lands, but when I board in so many 4 drops (Tezz), it seems necessary.
Nice work and really like your list! How are you finding Tezzeret and Time Sieve? They’re pet cards of mine and eager to get them into the deck so keen to hear your thoughts.
do you miss not have a white land for help with teferi?
As for the lands, I still didn't make up my mind, but the need for basic swamp/mountain didn't occur yet (maybe mountain when I have 2 goblins). It might be correct to play plains for Foundry, Teferi and sideboard, it could easily be another Island, Spire or utility land (I like the Spire the best).
Teferi maindeck was to fight UW (half of the field) but is still a great card.
Tezzeret acts as 4th Urza while also being good finisher, though I feel I win more games where I drop Urza then Tezz. After sideboard it is just great, people mulligan into Leyline when you bash them with 5/5 Astrolabes.
Time Sieve never left the 75 (sided out a lot), because of what it does. Being infinite with Thopter Sword Urza in many cases is not guaranteed win, so it fills the role similar to Girapur Aether Grid (with upside of being infinite without Urza).
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To answer your question, I think it doesn't make the cut. If you're using it to make tokens with engineer, I can't imagine the board state where the few 1/1's you're making are going to make a difference over the scenario of drawing cards by recurring astrolabe. Sword getting extracted is actually pretty rare, and usually only happens when an opponent casts a turn 1 or 2 discard into surgical.
My personal opinion is that all 2 cmc "value" targets for engineer, such as wellspring and schematic, are win-more. Engineer should be fetching combo pieces primarily, and if that is a risky route for whatever reason, then he should be fetching astrolabe to draw cards. Why spend valuable deck slots on these slight upgrades to astrolabe that could be more low-to-the-ground cards like serum visions, or removal, or additional silver bullets to shore up week matchups, or alternate win-cons like aether grid?
I only play one and it's in place of the second wellspring so I still have access to both.
Don't get me wrong, combo pieces are my main target but I suppose I found it very useful in my local meta where almost every deck is running surgical main and various aggro decks are also a thing, so having the early blockers preserving my life has been useful.
12th place: http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/131003
10th place: http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/131001
Interesting points: the 10th place deck plays no trawler or mind stones and opts for 21 lands and the full playset of prism (and a one-of paradox engine main!).
Both lists playing only 3 copies of engineer and 3 copies of whir.
Looks like there's still quite a few flex spots to play around with but I think this just solidifies us as a legit archetype thats here to compete and stay.
I still like Mystic Forge better than Paradox Engine in this deck, anyway; I believe the disadvantages Mystic Forge has of getting hosed by (possibly our own) Grafdigger's Cage, getting bricked by nonartifact spells (in addition to lands, which both get bricked by), and getting bricked by not enough mana are outweighed by Mystic Forge not needing Urza, costing 1 mana less, and burning up 1 land per turn instead of getting bricked by it.
I'm not sure it's the way to go, but it could well be, it's a nice option to have when everyone is hating on your thopter sword combo, and you just win with this instead
2 Goblin Engineer
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
3 Serum Visions
4 Whir of Invention
//Artifacts
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Time Sieve
3 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Welding Jar
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
1 Glimmervoid
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Spire of Industry
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dead of Winter
2 Galvanic Blast
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
I still like whir too much to play only 3 copies and I hate having thopter/sword in play + whir in hand but nothing else to tutor for (that would win me the game), that's why I'm going with infinite turns. Besides, without Urza, it is still the best way to win against Tron.
Yesterday I've came up with the idea that maybe it is no longer that far fetched to just dump the enchantment removal from the SB and go with 4 Altar of the Brood + 3 Sai, Master Thopterist.
What do you guys think? Has anyone tried that so far?
3 Goblin Engineer
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
1 Scrap Trawler
Artifact (25)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ichor Wellspring
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
Instant (3)
3 Whir of Invention
Land (20)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Polluted Delta
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Damping Sphere
2 Dead of Winter
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spellskite
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Witchbane Orb
Well I ended up going 1-2 with the deck, I will say it has been the worst outing in weeks of playing the deck but I tried a few new changes.
-2 Mind stone +2 Pentad Prism
-1 Thopter Foundry + Ghirapur Aether Grid
-1 Goblin Engineer + 1 Whir of Invention
Plus adjusted the lands to get Inventors' Fair and Cavern of souls (all the creatures are Artificer)
Games 1 GB Elves: 1-2
Match 1: he landed a early shaman on the pack and never pumped his dorks
Match 2: Bridge Lock
Match 3: just too fast for me to get set
Game 2 Valakut 1-2
Match 1: just to fast and couldn't the get the combo in time
Match 2: opening hand " 2 bauble, mox opal, Inventor's fair, Thopter foundry, sword of the meek, bridge
Match 3: I had him locked up with witchbane orb and bridge with spellskite but eventually got enough artifact hate
Game 3: 8 Rack 2-1
Match 1: destroyed my hand to fast
Match 2: I was able to draw plenty of cards and gain life
Match 3: he never got a rack card, and i got a early orb with urza out.
Overall, the deck never gets blown out and it is super fun to play plus can be very difficult at times. I never once needed Pentad prism in the games, aether grid is nice win con in the deck. I will say I like having three Whirs in the deck and I used them all the time actually for searching for pieces. I will say I am not the biggest fan of scrap trawler and I don't think he is needed.I have used him multiple weeks now and I never really get to abuse its ability.
I think you could open a few spots in the deck
-1 Scrap trawler
-2 pentad prism
-1 Nihl Spellbomb
I think could be interesting cards to try out for MD
Paradox engine
hangarback walker
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
MD Engineering Explosives
Chalice of the void
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
2 Serum Visions
4 Whir of Invention
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
//Artifacts
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Time Sieve
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Welding Jar
1 Academy Ruins
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Fiery Islet
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Spire of Industry
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Spellskite
4 Unmoored Ego
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Battle at the Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Torpor Orb
1 Witchbane Orb
Played against 2 UW, Jund, Valakut. I wouldn't go under 4 foundry, when your plan is to T2 goblin for sword, then have the highest % of hitting either Whir or Foundry itself.
Might go down back to 20 lands, but when I board in so many 4 drops (Tezz), it seems necessary.
I would be curious to see a decklist
4 prismatic vista
2 polluted delta
6 snow-covered island
1 snow-covered plains
1 academy ruins
2 hallowed fountain
4 Urza, lord artificer
4 karn, the great creator
3 teferi, time raveler
2 whir of invention
1 ensnaring bridge
1 Sai, master thopterist
3 mind stone
3 Thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
4 mox opal
4 mishra’s bauble
4 arcum’s astroblade
2 pithing needle
1 welding jar
2 grafdigger’s cage
1 mycosynth lattice
1 Torpor orb
1 tormod’s crypt
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Engineered explosives
1 witchbane orb
2 timely reinforcements
4 path to exile
1 Thopter foundry
1 Sword of the meek
1 wurmcoil engine
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-07-12
Pretty close to what you posted (good memory!).
Agree. I've tried jamming Karn and Thopter/Sword for a while (pre Horizons, too) and Karn just doesn't add much in a direction that the deck tends to want to go.
@St3ncil - I've thought about Bitter Ordeal, but imagine it's turn 3 against a combo deck. Wouldn't you much rather have an Unmoored Ego in hand?
Nice work and really like your list! How are you finding Tezzeret and Time Sieve? They’re pet cards of mine and eager to get them into the deck so keen to hear your thoughts.
do you miss not have a white land for help with teferi?
I tried altar of the brood in the side way back when. It was only good against UW control and stuff like Scapeshift, and that was back when our maindeck didn't present as robust a threat suite. Today, Altar would be a poor sideboard choice, as it has no utility outside of being a win-con and a slow one compared with other options.
But to your first point, dumping enchantment removal for me looks like shifting to more flexible answers. I play 2 Teferi maindeck, which can bounce problem permanents, and from the sideboard, I play 2 Deputy of Detention, which can obviously hit enchantments, but is also good against decks like dredge.
As for the lands, I still didn't make up my mind, but the need for basic swamp/mountain didn't occur yet (maybe mountain when I have 2 goblins). It might be correct to play plains for Foundry, Teferi and sideboard, it could easily be another Island, Spire or utility land (I like the Spire the best).
Teferi maindeck was to fight UW (half of the field) but is still a great card.
Tezzeret acts as 4th Urza while also being good finisher, though I feel I win more games where I drop Urza then Tezz. After sideboard it is just great, people mulligan into Leyline when you bash them with 5/5 Astrolabes.
Time Sieve never left the 75 (sided out a lot), because of what it does. Being infinite with Thopter Sword Urza in many cases is not guaranteed win, so it fills the role similar to Girapur Aether Grid (with upside of being infinite without Urza).