Yeah the harsh attacks on Smallpox are ridiculous. Watch the streams of Tom Ross from Orlando. Smallpox did amazing work in game after game. It's also completely solid in Legacy Pox, to the point where most folks don't even play Big Pox anymore (which I still think is bizarre). This deck is designed to take great advantage of the symmetrical effect of Smallpox and to deal easily w/the usage. If you're running multiple colors and ignoring mono black, then yes Smallpox is likely less attractive since it could easily strand you from other colors. Honestly I don't like 8 rack outside of mono black, but if I was writing a primer for the deck I would not be downing the other versions and cards to the degree you are.
Hey guys me and Rob came together to talk about all things 8Rack! You can check out the video right here. At some point the conversation diverges and goes into other Modern-related discussion, which could still be interesting to some of you. We talk about the state of the Primer in the beginning, which addresses a lot of the problems that we had. You can hear the moderators being discussed, but the mistake was entirely mine and they did exactly what they said they were going to do and what we agreed on. If you still have any concerns, please do voice them and hopefully we can have a civilised discussion about them.
Hey guys me and Rob came together to talk about all things 8Rack! You can check out the video right here. At some point the conversation diverges and goes into other Modern-related discussion, which could still be interesting to some of you. We talk about the state of the Primer in the beginning, which addresses a lot of the problems that we had. You can hear the moderators being discussed, but the mistake was entirely mine and they did exactly what they said they were going to do and what we agreed on. If you still have any concerns, please do voice them and hopefully we can have a civilised discussion about them.
the play/draw and the less than 8 target discard go hand to hand
i think you learned the deck from a slightly different angle and now you cant see from the draw first point of view, not to sound confrontational
if you are on the draw games tend to be more of a race
on turns 3-4 the opponent is already hand-light even if you only cast a pair of discard spells (they have 1 less card and are one turn of casting spells ahead of you), and in those situations you cant afford the risk to invest mana on something that doesnt impact the board and miss becuse the last card its a land, its to much of a gamble and thoughtseize punishes you with precious life when you are racing. thats why funeral charm comes very handy when you are on the draw, it kills the turn 1 creature and takes the last card without risking it
on the play its a lot harder to activate the racks (seriously, on the draw it feels like easy mode), target discard its at its best and removal its less needed
in my opinion most of the discussion comes from this:
you say 8 target discard its mandatory and some people dont agree, but the thing is that you are speaking from the play first point of view and the people that dont play the full 8 target discard are speaking from the draw first point of view
(which just fyi is still a work in progress) they had almost two years to do something about it. I waited for as long as I could before I contacted the mods and requested to take control of the thread because I know I have very polarising opinions and a lot of people won't like the changes. But they are here to stay and in time you will see it was all for the better of everybody.
I for one welcome our new primer overlord Espirino.
It's looking good man, keep at it when you can. Good to hear it was a rushed publish, sorry for the very quick community hate.
On the Raven's Crime amount, I'm speaking nonpox version, I'd say my view is 3-4. 4 is correct but 3 can work fine but you just can't keep high land openers. 1-2 is very meh. Where else are you going to cut, Thoughtseize? Wrench Mind a killer 2 for 1, sooo good in our offensive, proactive hand attack.
On Dismember: I'm way against it as a 4 of removal spell... unless you're running Death's Shadow that is. I do like it as a 1-2 of though and 1 should be in the board.
Great video with Esperino and Memory Lapse. It's interesting to hear both of your opinions and personal preferences on different strategies. I found myself agreeing with Esperino on the few differneces of opinions but for the most part you seemed to be on the same page.
@Memory Lapse. You mentioned in the beginning that you tried the original 8Rackdos that Esperino had up there (the one that was a placeholder in the primer) and you said the problem you had with the deck's linear strategy was it runs out of steam. My list runs AV and Chandra ToD to try to mitigate the steam problem. Do you think you might like a BR list more with the added CA? Edit: I also want you to consider the burn from Bolts, Kommands, and Chandra as potentially a sort of plan B.
Also I agree that Blightning and Rakdos Return are too slow but that's kind of irrelivent now that we know the list was just a placeholder.
That Boros Nahiri list you showed at the end looks fun as hell btw. Maybe instead of Ajani try Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? He makes tokens to protect your walkers and he also acts kind of like Myth Realized.
I posted a 4-0 and an FNM win tonight with all wins being 2-0's and none really being overly close. Two of the wins were against tier one decks in Bogles and Burn so I was happy about that. Will post the results this weekend
I must first say that yes I don't have Lilly and it would be great to have her, but I don't so outside of that this is the list I have come up with and it's a ton of fun. Also they don't like me posting in the budget forum lol.
Round One
This round was by far the easiest as it was a red burny type of brew, he just comes for fun. Win 2-0
Round Two vs Bogles
Game one - Death's Shadow is in my opening hand with some good discard so I take 6 damage from my own land as I make him discard a few good spells, like Daybreak Coronet. He double Rancor's a Slippery Bogle to go to zero cards and swings for 5 to bring me to 9. I take two more damage from Blood Crypt to go to 7 and drop a Death's Shadow and two racks. That one was fun
Game two - He mulls and then keeps a one creature hand, but it was a Kor Spiritdancer and I have inquisition. He draws a creature a few turns later but it was too late as he had no more cards to do anything with, and I had Anger of the Gods anyway. Win 2-0
Round Three vs Burn
Game 1 - He gets me to 6 but dies to three racks, and I thoughtseized away his Eidolon of the Great Revel. I think people and sometimes myself forget how one mana rack's act like reocurring Lightning Bolt's and it is fun when you also have a Bolt in hand yourself.
Game 2 - Much of the same, too much discard and two rack's, even though she played another Bitterblossom, which only really sped up her clock. I feel like this is a really good matchup Win 2-0
All in all, while I felt like a drew well I also think that it's because of the design of the deck too. Raven's Crime twice helped me out of flooding and was so good, and honestly Blightning was a killer. My strategy was only to take more damage from my lands if I had a Death's Shadow in hand, and it worked out so good against Bogles. I realize this deck is a bit gimmicky because at times the Death's Shadow can be a dead card, but also an alternate win con and a bridge for one mana. When it's good it's great. Perhaps it should go to the sideboard and I should put Asylum Visitor in? And any other suggestions are always appreciated, especially for my sideboard.
It's good to have a new primer with nice formatting and some new deck lists. However, I can't agree with your summary of Smallpox and Pack Rat.
Smallpox is not a bad card. It is extremely powerful, and skill-testing. It's back-breaking if you play it at the right time. You can't just fire it off anytime you have two mana. Pack Rat is also quite powerful, though quite removable. In 8=Rack, it's not a creature you can just jam early in the game. You have to bring it out at the right time, when you have control of the game, and use it with Mutavaultto finish off your opponant before they can recover.
I'm not an expert on mardu lists but I think the one mentioned in the primer has significant drawbacks
Kolaghan's Command has no creatures to return, makes it very weak
Only 7 white sources
Blightning's damage is irrelevant imho, 8Racks wins via gamestate, not with burn. In order to achieve desired gamestate consistently we need to use the most effective cards. Blightning is strictly worse than Wrench Mind for that purpose, it can be used as budget Liliana replacement in list above, but it doesnt make the cut in competitive list.
Rise and Fall. Cant discard lands
Low Raven's Crime count
High Rakdos's Return count
Temple of Malice. Imo we dont benefit from scry much
Too many 3 drops
I know this deck hardly gets real love. But when it does it is mono black. I have tried several different versions. I do like the blue splash for jace and other cantrips. I suppose this deck is doomed to suffer a place in limbo among tiers. I have got my bridges in paper. lol I've bought and sold em four times. Gonna run the deck again for a bit. If I do splash blue ashiok is awesome
4 is great but you can often get away with 3 as long as you replace that 1 with a different discard spell or card draw. 4x is great for increasing your chances of drawing one if you're unlucky but playing a second copy of ravens crime in a match is almost superfluous.
So I've been testing the 4cmc walkers in the white splash and I just had a thought. What about Monastery Mentor? It makes me think of a pack rat like ability (Edit: By that I mean a non linear plan B that gives dead cards purpose) but it's stronger in a vacuum and certainly powerful here too.
Raven's Crime loops would be pretty boss with him out
I love mentor but I'm doubting it will be as "consistent" as rat, if that makes sense. It's 100% worth testing, though. It works great with RC and turns all topdeck lands into Discard, Prowess trigger & Make a token for
Then there's always Myth Realized but it does nothing early. I think mentor would be better vs myth but just wanted to throw it out there, too.
I love mentor but I'm doubting it will be as "consistent" as rat, if that makes sense. It's 100% worth testing, though. It works great with RC and turns all topdeck lands into Discard, Prowess trigger & Make a token for
Then there's always Myth Realized but it does nothing early. I think mentor would be better vs myth but just wanted to throw it out there, too.
You might be right but I'm liking how you don't have to choose between making a rat or playing the card. You get to have your cake and eat it too (though the cake is probably less sweet).
Myth is a great card but imo not for this deck. I tried Myth in here but the problem is it's a card that is strongest when played T1 and 8 rack really wants to play discard for the first few turns. By the time you play myth it's too slow.
One of the benefits of Mentor is that you get to have interactions like "Smallpox. Trigger mentor, sac the new token to the Smallpox.". Down a land, a card and a life, but your mentor is 1 bigger and ready to go. Young Pyro is also a consideration if splashing red. Prowess is easier to activate than Peezy's ability, since artifacts, PWs and enchantments don't trigger him. He really wants instants tho so you can cast things on their turn, then his tokens get to attack.
I actually used pyro once upon a time for that very reason but I ended up dropping her cause she doesn't trigger off of all the walkers. artifacts and enchantments we run and she triggered a lot less often than I'd hoped. Thanks for reminding me about that, fortunately MM doesn't suffer that same weakness.
I posted a list but it might be hard to see above my sig. To many spoiler tags lol. Core + 3AV + 2MM +1 Anguished Unmaking. Do you think I need more lands to run it? You could probably just go 3/3 too.
I posted a list but it might be hard to see above my sig. To many spoiler tags lol. Core + 3AV + 2MM +1 Anguished Unmaking. Do you think I need more lands to run it?
the play/draw and the less than 8 target discard go hand to hand
i think you learned the deck from a slightly different angle and now you cant see from the draw first point of view, not to sound confrontational
if you are on the draw games tend to be more of a race
on turns 3-4 the opponent is already hand-light even if you only cast a pair of discard spells (they have 1 less card and are one turn of casting spells ahead of you), and in those situations you cant afford the risk to invest mana on something that doesnt impact the board and miss becuse the last card its a land, its to much of a gamble and thoughtseize punishes you with precious life when you are racing. thats why funeral charm comes very handy when you are on the draw, it kills the turn 1 creature and takes the last card without risking it
on the play its a lot harder to activate the racks (seriously, on the draw it feels like easy mode), target discard its at its best and removal its less needed
in my opinion most of the discussion comes from this:
you say 8 target discard its mandatory and some people dont agree, but the thing is that you are speaking from the play first point of view and the people that dont play the full 8 target discard are speaking from the draw first point of view
I for one welcome our new primer overlord Espirino.
It's looking good man, keep at it when you can. Good to hear it was a rushed publish, sorry for the very quick community hate.
On the Raven's Crime amount, I'm speaking nonpox version, I'd say my view is 3-4. 4 is correct but 3 can work fine but you just can't keep high land openers. 1-2 is very meh. Where else are you going to cut, Thoughtseize? Wrench Mind a killer 2 for 1, sooo good in our offensive, proactive hand attack.
On Dismember: I'm way against it as a 4 of removal spell... unless you're running Death's Shadow that is. I do like it as a 1-2 of though and 1 should be in the board.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
@Memory Lapse. You mentioned in the beginning that you tried the original 8Rackdos that Esperino had up there (the one that was a placeholder in the primer) and you said the problem you had with the deck's linear strategy was it runs out of steam. My list runs AV and Chandra ToD to try to mitigate the steam problem. Do you think you might like a BR list more with the added CA? Edit: I also want you to consider the burn from Bolts, Kommands, and Chandra as potentially a sort of plan B.
Also I agree that Blightning and Rakdos Return are too slow but that's kind of irrelivent now that we know the list was just a placeholder.
That Boros Nahiri list you showed at the end looks fun as hell btw. Maybe instead of Ajani try Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? He makes tokens to protect your walkers and he also acts kind of like Myth Realized.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Raven's Crime
1 Funeral Charm
4 Wrench Mind
3 Blightning
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Terminate
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Darkblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Funeral Charm
I must first say that yes I don't have Lilly and it would be great to have her, but I don't so outside of that this is the list I have come up with and it's a ton of fun. Also they don't like me posting in the budget forum lol.
Round One
This round was by far the easiest as it was a red burny type of brew, he just comes for fun. Win 2-0
Round Two vs Bogles
Game one - Death's Shadow is in my opening hand with some good discard so I take 6 damage from my own land as I make him discard a few good spells, like Daybreak Coronet. He double Rancor's a Slippery Bogle to go to zero cards and swings for 5 to bring me to 9. I take two more damage from Blood Crypt to go to 7 and drop a Death's Shadow and two racks. That one was fun
Game two - He mulls and then keeps a one creature hand, but it was a Kor Spiritdancer and I have inquisition. He draws a creature a few turns later but it was too late as he had no more cards to do anything with, and I had Anger of the Gods anyway. Win 2-0
Round Three vs Burn
Game 1 - He gets me to 6 but dies to three racks, and I thoughtseized away his Eidolon of the Great Revel. I think people and sometimes myself forget how one mana rack's act like reocurring Lightning Bolt's and it is fun when you also have a Bolt in hand yourself.
Game 2 - I bolt his Monastery Swiftspear and Grim Lavamancer and make him discard the rest of his hand as he fizzles out thanks to Raven's Crime and he dies to Affliction. Win 2-0
Round Four vs Fairies
Game 1 - She drops a Bitterblossom but I discard her money cards in Vendilion Clique and Lilly and then Blightning comes down to discard her land and Cryptic Command, she dies to the rack.
Game 2 - Much of the same, too much discard and two rack's, even though she played another Bitterblossom, which only really sped up her clock. I feel like this is a really good matchup Win 2-0
All in all, while I felt like a drew well I also think that it's because of the design of the deck too. Raven's Crime twice helped me out of flooding and was so good, and honestly Blightning was a killer. My strategy was only to take more damage from my lands if I had a Death's Shadow in hand, and it worked out so good against Bogles. I realize this deck is a bit gimmicky because at times the Death's Shadow can be a dead card, but also an alternate win con and a bridge for one mana. When it's good it's great. Perhaps it should go to the sideboard and I should put Asylum Visitor in? And any other suggestions are always appreciated, especially for my sideboard.
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
Smallpox is not a bad card. It is extremely powerful, and skill-testing. It's back-breaking if you play it at the right time. You can't just fire it off anytime you have two mana. Pack Rat is also quite powerful, though quite removable. In 8=Rack, it's not a creature you can just jam early in the game. You have to bring it out at the right time, when you have control of the game, and use it with Mutavaultto finish off your opponant before they can recover.
Kolaghan's Command has no creatures to return, makes it very weak
Only 7 white sources
Blightning's damage is irrelevant imho, 8Racks wins via gamestate, not with burn. In order to achieve desired gamestate consistently we need to use the most effective cards. Blightning is strictly worse than Wrench Mind for that purpose, it can be used as budget Liliana replacement in list above, but it doesnt make the cut in competitive list.
Rise and Fall. Cant discard lands
Low Raven's Crime count
High Rakdos's Return count
Temple of Malice. Imo we dont benefit from scry much
Too many 3 drops
I would start from this
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
Spells 25
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Raven's Crime
1 Funeral Charm
3 Wrench Mind
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pack Rat
3 Asylum Visitor
Lands 22
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Raven's Crime loops would be pretty boss with him out
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Then there's always Myth Realized but it does nothing early. I think mentor would be better vs myth but just wanted to throw it out there, too.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
Myth is a great card but imo not for this deck. I tried Myth in here but the problem is it's a card that is strongest when played T1 and 8 rack really wants to play discard for the first few turns. By the time you play myth it's too slow.
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
3 Mutavault
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
3 Asylum Visitor
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wrench Mind
8Racks
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nevermore
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)