Removing redirection rule will hurt us as planeswalkers are important to get rid of because of contant card advantage
So Funeral Charm gets value uptick as Mutavault + FC often kill planeswalker on the spot instead of just removing two loyalty
Wrench Mind can be a better card now because field is playing more value games
Im still skeptical about fourth Thoughtseize, its bad vs aggro and bad as topdeck
Damping Sphere can be nice even without us using it as passive Tron lands hate
Im not sure about using it, its very narrow, it slows opponent down but does nothing against present board
Grats!
Dont you think that 4 Rats + 4 Delirium Skeins is an overkill vs Leyline? Provided there are cards that are good against it maindeck - Liliana, Smallpox, they both 'use' cards disabled by enchantment.
Also how is Bontu's Last Reckoning? Im more into Flaying Tendrils because it also exiles while hitting big things is less relevant because they dont come in multiples and we have sac effects for them.
Random question for the thread. Has anyone ever considered, or actually tried, running Dream Salvage as a 1 mana, draw 2-4? Just theory-crafting, but I see a lot of scenarios where you can make your opponent discard 2-4 cards in one turn, especially if you run Augur of Skulls as sort of a "delayed discard" effect. That said, I have very limited experience with the deck, so I wanted to ask the experts
Recently I have been running Lost Legacy MB with great results. Only as a 1 of but I would like two of them. For the most part I use it on myself, targeting some sort of useless card. Against game 1 Affinity for example I top decked it at low health targeting wrench mind, drawing 3 cards (I run 3 mb), and then proceeded to retake the game. Just an idea of course
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
Humans - Bontu's or other sweeper, all the targeted removal, maybe ratchet bomb
Hollow One - Bontu's or other sweepers, all the targeted removal, Nihil's Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction
Eldrazi - Bontus' or other sweepers, all the targeted removal
These are the reasons why I abandoned the deck for now. The meta is full of heavy aggro creatures and powerful decks (TROOOOON). I believe the answer is to think outside the box in order to be more proactive against creatures and graveyard. Maybe running 4 ensnaring bridges main deck, along with sweepers... Who knows.
I dont play much nowadays but formerly Jund was a great matchup
I used to side out all racks because on top of ordinary stuff they have Ancient Grudge
And side in Nyxathids, Pack Rat and Fulminator Mage
BBE Jund is tougher as it is faster and has more card advantage but I believe very beatable, should be about 50%
Hey guys, how do you all feel about Scrying Sheets? Obviously this is a last resort use of our mana but it seems like we often end up on 3 or 4 lands and start top decking 1 drops. we only need 3 lands to activate the Scrying Sheets so it seems like it could come up. Where do you feel you usually end up on lands with this deck? A mana sink is useful but is 3 lands too expensive?
My meta has a low to nonexistent number of tron players. Because of this, Ghostquarter has less of a premium. We still need the man lands but Scrying Sheets gives us something to do late game with our extra mana.
The first question is: how many colorless lands can 23/24 lands with 4 Urborg support? It looks like most lists run 4 Urborg / 4 Man Lands and don't play Ghostquarter at all. How bad does it hurt us to up one colorless land?
Do you feel like the late game mana sink will come up often enough to utilize it? Sheets only has about a 20% chance of drawing us a card.
Sheets makes Fetch Lands and Dakmor Salvage slightly better by letting us look at the top card of our library which we can then shuffle or Dredge away. But this gives us fewer Snow-covered Swamps to draw into.
2x Scrying Sheets is probably at least 1 too many but I want to test it out and running 2 will give me the most data as to how useful it is. Also, are there any adjustments you would make to the mainboard when trying this out? Maybe more retrace cards are useful now?
Hello guys!! this month I will try to share as much as possible in order to try to develop the deck more and more because I intend to play the GP in July. I still do not know if I go with 8rack he is in my preferences, but I find the deck with great potential, so I ask your help so we can develop the guide, with statistics and machtups.
And I already share that the deck needs to splash. It's very cool the monoblack version, but I think a little splah will help us a lot against some matches.
I was thinking about the mardu pyromancer one of these days and I saw how similar it is to 8rack, it has a lot of discards, a lot of removal, in case the rack destroys the opponent's hand and the shrieking affliction and the rack help control the game because it the opponent in a trade off if you play the card or hold the card to not suffer damage, other than smallpox. The mardu holds the game with blood locking the lands and uses discards to draw key cards from the opponent's hand. In the matter of removal is positive point for the two. so why is mardu so far ahead of the rack? and that's what I want to develop, turn the rack into a deck as oppressive as mardu, bgx or DS.
so let's start with this version here, which I found very interesting:
Hi JoandsonPaul. I'll preface this with the fact that I am just getting into 8rack and don't have a lot of experience.
I think a light splash is fine but probably isn't necessary. Let's look at the list in the link you posted. The white splash is only for disenchant effects and Lingering Souls. I'm not convinced Lingering Souls does much that mono black can't do. We can play pack rat or death's shadow if we want to attack and we can play Bontu's Last Reckoning and Ensnaring Bridge if we want to deal with go wide strategies. There's merit to treating Lingering Souls as a "modal" spell but it seems weaker than either card I mentioned from mono black.
The disenchants are useful. They can answer a variety of problems like Aether Vial in Humans and Tron artifacts. They answer Bloodmoon but that isn't necessary if you're playing 10+ swamps to begin with.
The splash doesn't hurt us too much besides against Bloodmoon. So the question is: does Disenchant give us enough of an edge that we accept the weakness it provides? Maybe. But I'm not convinced that Disenchants are even that necessary to begin with. I would think that Stony Silence is the better card here also. I would also like to see more Leyline of the Voids for the Hollow One match up. Delirium Skeins seems pretty important with all the Leyline of Sanctity running around as well.
I guess the problem is that we need to prioritize Sideboard slots. What do you expect the meta to look like? Do we need to dilute our mana base for these cards?
So I reaffirm that it is necessary to splash and I know how difficult it is to accept this. The fact that we use a splash does not necessarily represent a weakness. Delirium Skeins looks good for a mono color deck but it does not hit the target we want, it's not as effective. Chalice of the void or oblivion stone destroying all our permanents, all this is difficult for us. Even the big splash fear would be the loss of life because of the fetchs, but if we use fatal push we need fetch for the push to be efficient, so this is no longer a threat.
With regard to lingering souls, I'm not sure how far they need it, but I do not think it's bad either, it's something that we need to develop further. I believe that the best splash is still white, it meets what we need.
Hey guys, how do you all feel about Scrying Sheets? Obviously this is a last resort use of our mana but it seems like we often end up on 3 or 4 lands and start top decking 1 drops. we only need 3 lands to activate the Scrying Sheets so it seems like it could come up. Where do you feel you usually end up on lands with this deck? A mana sink is useful but is 3 lands too expensive?
My meta has a low to nonexistent number of tron players. Because of this, Ghostquarter has less of a premium. We still need the man lands but Scrying Sheets gives us something to do late game with our extra mana.
The first question is: how many colorless lands can 23/24 lands with 4 Urborg support? It looks like most lists run 4 Urborg / 4 Man Lands and don't play Ghostquarter at all. How bad does it hurt us to up one colorless land?
Do you feel like the late game mana sink will come up often enough to utilize it? Sheets only has about a 20% chance of drawing us a card.
Sheets makes Fetch Lands and Dakmor Salvage slightly better by letting us look at the top card of our library which we can then shuffle or Dredge away. But this gives us fewer Snow-covered Swamps to draw into.
2x Scrying Sheets is probably at least 1 too many but I want to test it out and running 2 will give me the most data as to how useful it is. Also, are there any adjustments you would make to the mainboard when trying this out? Maybe more retrace cards are useful now?
Im playing Skred Red and love Scrying Sheets but hardly 8Rack is a good place for it
4 Mutavaults sometimes make troubles already thats why some players play 3
I dont think SS advantages outweigh its drawbacks
Though mana sinks generally should be good in 8Rack especially those that give card advantage
If I wanted to try id go with 4 Muta 1 SS 4 Urborg 15 Swamps to have 16/64 = 27% of drawing or +1 SS -1 Muta for 28%. Darkmore and fetches are already questionable
And I already share that the deck needs to splash. It's very cool the monoblack version, but I think a little splah will help us a lot against some matches.
I was thinking about the mardu pyromancer one of these days and I saw how similar it is to 8rack, it has a lot of discards, a lot of removal, in case the rack destroys the opponent's hand and the shrieking affliction and the rack help control the game because it the opponent in a trade off if you play the card or hold the card to not suffer damage, other than smallpox. The mardu holds the game with blood locking the lands and uses discards to draw key cards from the opponent's hand. In the matter of removal is positive point for the two. so why is mardu so far ahead of the rack? and that's what I want to develop, turn the rack into a deck as oppressive as mardu, bgx or DS.
so let's start with this version here, which I found very interesting:
You need to know why do you need splash. For example "Leyline of Sanctity is nearly unbeatable" clause in the link is just wrong. I already spent a couple posts explaining this so you can search them but in short playing Leyline has a cost and we have cards that are good against it. Lingering Souls is a powerful card but its need and synergy with the deck is questionable we already have a lot of removal and wincons. Im not saying they are bad in the deck but playing another color comes with a cost so only being good is not enough. Disenchant is also only good. We are not in need of its assistance vs artifacts or enchanements decks. Chalice hurts but there are only 3% decks play 3+ Chalices main, one third (1%) of them play Chalice + Simian Spirit Guide. So its like we add color to have sideboard cards for a tier2 deck
Im playing Skred Red and love Scrying Sheets but hardly 8Rack is a good place for it
4 Mutavaults sometimes make troubles already thats why some players play 3
I dont think SS advantages outweigh its drawbacks
Though mana sinks generally should be good in 8Rack especially those that give card advantage
If I wanted to try id go with 4 Muta 1 SS 4 Urborg 15 Swamps to have 16/64 = 27% of drawing or +1 SS -1 Muta for 28%. Darkmore and fetches are already questionable
Thanks for the commment. I think 8rack may be the second best place for Scrying Sheets (though, it's still probably bad). I think you're right about maximizing hits. I will try switching out the Dakmor Salvage for another swamp. This gives me about 15/60 = 25% (I'm guessing 64 is typo in your comment?) chance.
I think fetch lands are pretty important here. You can do a sudo scry with Scrying Sheets and a Fetch land. Plus Fetchlands makes fatal push better. I would like to play 2 but I need to maximize my snow-covered swamps...
I'll probably play this deck at Modern Monday and see how it feels.
damping sphere
]it does not kill tron at all. It just slows it, gaining 2 or 3 turns.
we do need an aggro solution in addition to the racks.
I didnt play Damping Sphere against Tron but I think it is great (when played t2). It transofrms tron into fair deck which plays 6-7 lands before playing its bombs (and Ulamog becomes uncastable). 8Rack is very good against this because it doesnt allow them to amass permanents easily. Like vs Titanshift
I tested nyxathid in replacement of pack rat. the choice is still hard.
They are different, use both. Nyxathid is weak when opponent keeps cards, Rat is weak againt Snapcaster, Maelstrom Pulse, bounce effects.
The game vs Gtron was very narrow. I lost my second game because of a world breaker that he get back from graveyard and killed my win con in place.
Thats why I use 4 gy hate pieces against them (2 Relics)
I know why I want to splash, it's because of leylines, chalices, and anything else that's going to be a rock in the way of 8rack. We do not just need good cards, we need efficient cards and that's exactly what we used to splash to meet the need of the deck. You talk so much about cost and you do not see how costly it can be to keep the monoblack platform, closing the range of possibilities that another color can bring. But okay I understand that it is difficult to change only that even with some splah the 8rack remains 8rack.
The deck remains the same as changing the 4-5 side slot, the deck is already using fetchlands because of the fatal push, the decks are not packed with shocklands only have only one BW and this is totally acceptable.
Well I'm going to continue with my idea BW 8rack who wants to contribute I'm open ears, there are a month and a few days until the GP and 8rack is at the top of the list, I want to arrive with the best possible version, balance disadvantages and improve the winrate of the others.
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4x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek (ROE)
4x Liliana of the Veil (ISD)
4x Mutavault (M14)
4x Raven's Crime (EVE)
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Smallpox (TSP)
16x Swamp (GUR)
4x The Rack (TSB)
4x Thoughtseize (THS)
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (M15)
4x Wrench Mind (MRD)
Sideboard
4x Bloodghast (ZEN)
4x Collective Brutality (EMN)
3x Darkblast (RAV)
4x Extirpate (PLC)
So Funeral Charm gets value uptick as Mutavault + FC often kill planeswalker on the spot instead of just removing two loyalty
Wrench Mind can be a better card now because field is playing more value games
Im still skeptical about fourth Thoughtseize, its bad vs aggro and bad as topdeck
Damping Sphere can be nice even without us using it as passive Tron lands hate
Im not sure about using it, its very narrow, it slows opponent down but does nothing against present board
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Dont you think that 4 Rats + 4 Delirium Skeins is an overkill vs Leyline? Provided there are cards that are good against it maindeck - Liliana, Smallpox, they both 'use' cards disabled by enchantment.
Also how is Bontu's Last Reckoning? Im more into Flaying Tendrils because it also exiles while hitting big things is less relevant because they dont come in multiples and we have sac effects for them.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Thanks!
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
Hollow One - Bontu's or other sweepers, all the targeted removal, Nihil's Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction
Eldrazi - Bontus' or other sweepers, all the targeted removal
Then, lots of prayers
I used to side out all racks because on top of ordinary stuff they have Ancient Grudge
And side in Nyxathids, Pack Rat and Fulminator Mage
BBE Jund is tougher as it is faster and has more card advantage but I believe very beatable, should be about 50%
Mardu Pyro should be bad, Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer, Bedlam Reveler all generate a lot of card advantage. AndKolaghan's Command provides it too
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
My meta has a low to nonexistent number of tron players. Because of this, Ghostquarter has less of a premium. We still need the man lands but Scrying Sheets gives us something to do late game with our extra mana.
The first question is: how many colorless lands can 23/24 lands with 4 Urborg support? It looks like most lists run 4 Urborg / 4 Man Lands and don't play Ghostquarter at all. How bad does it hurt us to up one colorless land?
Do you feel like the late game mana sink will come up often enough to utilize it? Sheets only has about a 20% chance of drawing us a card.
Sheets makes Fetch Lands and Dakmor Salvage slightly better by letting us look at the top card of our library which we can then shuffle or Dredge away. But this gives us fewer Snow-covered Swamps to draw into.
The landbase I want to test is:
1x Dakmor Salvage
1x Marsh Flats
3x Mutavault
2x Scrying Sheets
12x Snow-Covered Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Scrying Sheets is probably at least 1 too many but I want to test it out and running 2 will give me the most data as to how useful it is. Also, are there any adjustments you would make to the mainboard when trying this out? Maybe more retrace cards are useful now?
I was thinking about the mardu pyromancer one of these days and I saw how similar it is to 8rack, it has a lot of discards, a lot of removal, in case the rack destroys the opponent's hand and the shrieking affliction and the rack help control the game because it the opponent in a trade off if you play the card or hold the card to not suffer damage, other than smallpox. The mardu holds the game with blood locking the lands and uses discards to draw key cards from the opponent's hand. In the matter of removal is positive point for the two. so why is mardu so far ahead of the rack? and that's what I want to develop, turn the rack into a deck as oppressive as mardu, bgx or DS.
so let's start with this version here, which I found very interesting:
http://manadeprived.com/nearly-top-8-rack/
I think a light splash is fine but probably isn't necessary. Let's look at the list in the link you posted. The white splash is only for disenchant effects and Lingering Souls. I'm not convinced Lingering Souls does much that mono black can't do. We can play pack rat or death's shadow if we want to attack and we can play Bontu's Last Reckoning and Ensnaring Bridge if we want to deal with go wide strategies. There's merit to treating Lingering Souls as a "modal" spell but it seems weaker than either card I mentioned from mono black.
The disenchants are useful. They can answer a variety of problems like Aether Vial in Humans and Tron artifacts. They answer Bloodmoon but that isn't necessary if you're playing 10+ swamps to begin with.
The splash doesn't hurt us too much besides against Bloodmoon. So the question is: does Disenchant give us enough of an edge that we accept the weakness it provides? Maybe. But I'm not convinced that Disenchants are even that necessary to begin with. I would think that Stony Silence is the better card here also. I would also like to see more Leyline of the Voids for the Hollow One match up. Delirium Skeins seems pretty important with all the Leyline of Sanctity running around as well.
I guess the problem is that we need to prioritize Sideboard slots. What do you expect the meta to look like? Do we need to dilute our mana base for these cards?
With regard to lingering souls, I'm not sure how far they need it, but I do not think it's bad either, it's something that we need to develop further. I believe that the best splash is still white, it meets what we need.
4 Mutavaults sometimes make troubles already thats why some players play 3
I dont think SS advantages outweigh its drawbacks
Though mana sinks generally should be good in 8Rack especially those that give card advantage
If I wanted to try id go with 4 Muta 1 SS 4 Urborg 15 Swamps to have 16/64 = 27% of drawing or +1 SS -1 Muta for 28%. Darkmore and fetches are already questionable
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Thanks for the commment. I think 8rack may be the second best place for Scrying Sheets (though, it's still probably bad). I think you're right about maximizing hits. I will try switching out the Dakmor Salvage for another swamp. This gives me about 15/60 = 25% (I'm guessing 64 is typo in your comment?) chance.
I think fetch lands are pretty important here. You can do a sudo scry with Scrying Sheets and a Fetch land. Plus Fetchlands makes fatal push better. I would like to play 2 but I need to maximize my snow-covered swamps...
I'll probably play this deck at Modern Monday and see how it feels.
Here's the deck I'm thinking about:
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Infernal Tutor
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
2x Wrench Mind
Artifact (4)
4x The Rack
Instant (5)
1x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
2x Funeral Charm
4x Shrieking Affliction
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Land (23)
1x Marsh Flats
3x Mutavault
2x Scrying Sheets
13x Snow-Covered Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Collective Brutality
3x Delirium Skeins
2x Fulminator Mage
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Pack Rat
I didnt play Damping Sphere against Tron but I think it is great (when played t2). It transofrms tron into fair deck which plays 6-7 lands before playing its bombs (and Ulamog becomes uncastable). 8Rack is very good against this because it doesnt allow them to amass permanents easily. Like vs Titanshift
They are different, use both. Nyxathid is weak when opponent keeps cards, Rat is weak againt Snapcaster, Maelstrom Pulse, bounce effects.
Thats why I use 4 gy hate pieces against them (2 Relics)
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
The deck remains the same as changing the 4-5 side slot, the deck is already using fetchlands because of the fatal push, the decks are not packed with shocklands only have only one BW and this is totally acceptable.
Well I'm going to continue with my idea BW 8rack who wants to contribute I'm open ears, there are a month and a few days until the GP and 8rack is at the top of the list, I want to arrive with the best possible version, balance disadvantages and improve the winrate of the others.