How have those running Bontu's been liking it? I'm seeing it in a few sideboards. It seems like the primary contenders for that spot are Flaying Tendrils, Damnation and Night of Souls' Betrayal. I haven't had a chance to actually test it so I'm not sure if the exile vs. untap is relevant.
When is it better than the other options? When is it worse?
As far as Titanshift/Amulet decks? Reasonably okay. Matchup is either 55-45 or 40-60 depending on if you're running more than just Smallpox and Ghost Quarters in some capacity.
If you Smallpox out Titanshift, you just have to make sure to keep a Liliana activation or Smallpox in the wings and not let titan stick around. Stick a rack or two and you'll win easily enough.
Amulet is a little worse, but if you luck out and snipe an Amulet/Azusa, you're golden. Remember that 8rack, as a control deck, preys on the combo/lockdown decks pretty hard, we run the lockdown game harder than the likes of Lantern control and I don't think I've ever dropped a match against Ad Nauseum, as an example.
8-Rack is my first modern deck and it's great to see so many other players out there. Have two main questions after playing the creature-less mono-black version for a few months:
1) Is there a particular reason not many lists include both Smallpox and Ensnaring Bridge? I'm running 3 of the former and a playset of the latter and it seems to work well...
2) Now I'm aware the Intro says to avoid discussing cards such as Liliana's Caress, but I'm curious how people are dealing with situations where the opponent is able to rebuild the size of their hand, (e.g. a timely Sphinx's Revelation etc.) after which top-decking 1 discard spell a turn at best is no longer that effective. I've had some success with Caress becoming a win-con even when the opponent's hand has built back up despite my efforts (not to mention some extra bonus against Cycling mechanics). Are there other cards out there that might be useful in this scenario? Or is there simply not enough space to have the best of both worlds per se.
8-Rack is my first modern deck and it's great to see so many other players out there. Have two main questions after playing the creature-less mono-black version for a few months:
1) Is there a particular reason not many lists include both Smallpox and Ensnaring Bridge? I'm running 3 of the former and a playset of the latter and it seems to work well...
2) Now I'm aware the Intro says to avoid discussing cards such as Liliana's Caress, but I'm curious how people are dealing with situations where the opponent is able to rebuild the size of their hand, (e.g. a timely Sphinx's Revelation etc.) after which top-decking 1 discard spell a turn at best is no longer that effective. I've had some success with Caress becoming a win-con even when the opponent's hand has built back up despite my efforts (not to mention some extra bonus against Cycling mechanics). Are there other cards out there that might be useful in this scenario? Or is there simply not enough space to have the best of both worlds per se.
2) A 2 mana rack effect is too much expensive (another that comes to mind is Waste Not). I'm not sure there's much to do if an opponent is resolving Sphinx's Revelation or Ancestral Vision late game (we shouldn't reach that point in the game anyways), other than Mutavault beats. Including Liliana's Caress is trying to solve a very narrow issue of multiple card draws at the expense of our main plan to finish the opponent in the mid game.
Thanks for your comments Yeh I'm running exactly 4 other removal spells being 4 Fatal Push (although looking to change to a 2/2 split with Dismember), but I still sometimes lose to creatures whether that be by bridges being blown up or not drawing removal/Smallpox. I'm becoming more and more tempted to bite the bullet and try the non-bridge variants and become a bit more aggressive with the deck...
Yeh that's pretty much what I thought people were thinking about Caress... although I'd be curious if a one CMC version with say damage dealing instead of loss of life (hitting planeswalkers) would find a home in the deck...
So FNM was weird this week. 3-1 for 3rd place. Beat a white budget affinity, BR 8 rack, lost to Bant Eldrazi (for some reason cast smallpox when I only had Bontu in hand which cost me the game. I am usually much better than such a poor play) and got my vengeance on the owner's bogles deck which beat me soundly when I was on budget rack. In the mirror, I sided in Disenchant, Fulm mage, Lingering souls, and Extirpate. Cast a bunch of tokens, discarded his Lili then removed it from the game and went for the beats.
It's super flexible and at least one mode is going to be relevant. I main board 3 and it hasn't been a dead card. It eats smaller creatures like Burn, (e) D&T while gaining life. I won against tron using the card when they were at 2 life and they managed to snag some cards. I was going to die to eldrazi beats but the drain won me the game. I have noticed that there have been quite a few games where they were down to low life and just a lttle push gets you there.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
So I had a great "oh my god" moment.
I was up against a control player who held ever card. He wouldn't play a thing. I had 2 afflictions on the field and he would always have 7 cards in hand. My frustration only grew.
So, I started hoarding cards as well. I held onto every card till I had 7 lands in hand. then I crimed the hell out of him. It was amazing. He was stuck in the "doomed if I do doomed if I don't" in regard to his counter spells. when the dust settled we both had 0 cards in hand, but my afflictions had finally come online and I was able to steal the game.
I love Raven's crime, always have, always will.
So I had a great "oh my god" moment.
I was up against a control player who held ever card. He wouldn't play a thing. I had 2 afflictions on the field and he would always have 7 cards in hand. My frustration only grew.
So, I started hoarding cards as well. I held onto every card till I had 7 lands in hand. then I crimed the hell out of him. It was amazing. He was stuck in the "doomed if I do doomed if I don't" in regard to his counter spells. when the dust settled we both had 0 cards in hand, but my afflictions had finally come online and I was able to steal the game.
I love Raven's crime, always have, always will.
Raven's Crime is amazing. It gives our deck a lot of live top-decks since it turns every land into a discard spell. It's not the most exciting card, but it gets it done. The main drawback is that it's the simplest 1-for-1. If you are playing against an opponent who is holding everything they draw then it can be pretty terrible since it won't get you ahead and let you get them down into rack range. The grindy match-ups are where it really shines if you can keep your opponent's hand relatively small so that they have to discard something useful.
I've been running some extra Asylum Visitor in the sideboard for those match-ups where my opponents are just going to try to hold their cards (control and some combo). It's a good clock for a cheap cost that is also useful against a lot of creature decks, but against the low-creature decks it provides pressure where The Rack and Shrieking Affliction do not.
I played a PPTQ last week, went 4-2 and finished 10th. I played both Smallpox and Ensnaring Bridge and felt better than expected. Bontu's Last Reckoning was very good too in the sideboard. You can see my decklist and report (in spanish :gaping:) here if you want.
Very nice, thank you for the report. I still haven't gotten the chance to actually play Bontu's Reckoning and I've been hearing decent things about it but still not convinced.
Hopefully people will listen to you more about not playing 24 lands.
What have peoples' thoughts been generally on Bitterblossom as an alternate win-con? In particular in regards to the Mono-Black Bridge version of the deck.
Also, quick note on Bontu's Last Reckoning - upgraded to these from Flaying Tendrils and have not looked back
I reaffirm myself, I think the white color can be very viable for the cover. I do not talk about playing flagstones. But four concealed four fetchlands and a godless shrine can not be bad at all. We won with the revolt of the fatal push. And in the sideboard we won with fragmentize, disenchant, explosives, stony silence, lingering souls. It is very frustrating when you play a white line and you can not do anything. We won a lot with white, especially against lantern, affinity, add nauseam, rg scapeshift, decks with chalice . Etc. without speaking of lingering against grixis shadow.I prefer to suffer alone against blood moon. Not against artifacts and enchantments that will not let us play or will make our life impossible.
I just made the move from mono-black w/white sideboard to BW mainboard and it's made a big difference in answers during game 1. Still getting stomped by Ad Nauseum though
I reaffirm myself, I think the white color can be very viable for the cover. I do not talk about playing flagstones. But four concealed four fetchlands and a godless shrine can not be bad at all. We won with the revolt of the fatal push. And in the sideboard we won with fragmentize, disenchant, explosives, stony silence, lingering souls. It is very frustrating when you play a white line and you can not do anything. We won a lot with white, especially against lantern, affinity, add nauseam, rg scapeshift, decks with chalice . Etc. without speaking of lingering against grixis shadow.I prefer to suffer alone against blood moon. Not against artifacts and enchantments that will not let us play or will make our life impossible.
I just made the move from mono-black w/white sideboard to BW mainboard and it's made a big difference in answers during game 1. Still getting stomped by Ad Nauseum though
When is it better than the other options? When is it worse?
If you Smallpox out Titanshift, you just have to make sure to keep a Liliana activation or Smallpox in the wings and not let titan stick around. Stick a rack or two and you'll win easily enough.
Amulet is a little worse, but if you luck out and snipe an Amulet/Azusa, you're golden. Remember that 8rack, as a control deck, preys on the combo/lockdown decks pretty hard, we run the lockdown game harder than the likes of Lantern control and I don't think I've ever dropped a match against Ad Nauseum, as an example.
8-Rack is my first modern deck and it's great to see so many other players out there. Have two main questions after playing the creature-less mono-black version for a few months:
1) Is there a particular reason not many lists include both Smallpox and Ensnaring Bridge? I'm running 3 of the former and a playset of the latter and it seems to work well...
2) Now I'm aware the Intro says to avoid discussing cards such as Liliana's Caress, but I'm curious how people are dealing with situations where the opponent is able to rebuild the size of their hand, (e.g. a timely Sphinx's Revelation etc.) after which top-decking 1 discard spell a turn at best is no longer that effective. I've had some success with Caress becoming a win-con even when the opponent's hand has built back up despite my efforts (not to mention some extra bonus against Cycling mechanics). Are there other cards out there that might be useful in this scenario? Or is there simply not enough space to have the best of both worlds per se.
Thanks - keen to hear your thoughts!
Welcome, buddy.
My thoughts are:
1) We already play 4+ targeted removal spells and 4 Liliana of the Veil. Adding 4 Smallpox and 4 Ensnaring Bridge seems too much main board creature control, but I'm yet to see Smallpox, Ensnaring Bridge and no creature removal.
2) A 2 mana rack effect is too much expensive (another that comes to mind is Waste Not). I'm not sure there's much to do if an opponent is resolving Sphinx's Revelation or Ancestral Vision late game (we shouldn't reach that point in the game anyways), other than Mutavault beats. Including Liliana's Caress is trying to solve a very narrow issue of multiple card draws at the expense of our main plan to finish the opponent in the mid game.
Yeh that's pretty much what I thought people were thinking about Caress... although I'd be curious if a one CMC version with say damage dealing instead of loss of life (hitting planeswalkers) would find a home in the deck...
Read Baral's toughness again...
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
oh
I was up against a control player who held ever card. He wouldn't play a thing. I had 2 afflictions on the field and he would always have 7 cards in hand. My frustration only grew.
So, I started hoarding cards as well. I held onto every card till I had 7 lands in hand. then I crimed the hell out of him. It was amazing. He was stuck in the "doomed if I do doomed if I don't" in regard to his counter spells. when the dust settled we both had 0 cards in hand, but my afflictions had finally come online and I was able to steal the game.
I love Raven's crime, always have, always will.
A very underrated card
Raven's Crime "very underrated"? WHAT???
I've been running some extra Asylum Visitor in the sideboard for those match-ups where my opponents are just going to try to hold their cards (control and some combo). It's a good clock for a cheap cost that is also useful against a lot of creature decks, but against the low-creature decks it provides pressure where The Rack and Shrieking Affliction do not.
See report
Playing 23 lands instead of 24 has been the major improvement I have done recently with the deck.
Hopefully people will listen to you more about not playing 24 lands.
Also, quick note on Bontu's Last Reckoning - upgraded to these from Flaying Tendrils and have not looked back
I'd still keep one fraying in the SB for things like kitchen finks and other reanimator stuff.
I just made the move from mono-black w/white sideboard to BW mainboard and it's made a big difference in answers during game 1. Still getting stomped by Ad Nauseum though
Lost Legacy maybe?