So i've been playing WC for a few months now as an audible deck for when I scout the field and I think that my main deck, tron, might be a bad choice due to aggro decks.
I'd have to say that this archetype is so much better when you decide what you want to win against and what you are comfortable taking a loss to if it shows up. I play W<> because it just wrecks every aggro deck in the format. Other versions may be more adept at taking on control or combo decks as in the UW versions. If you want to just stomp on jund all day, maybe GW with like thragtusks and finks would be the correct course.
Just wanted to point out that this deck gets better if you don't look at it as a deck that needs to beat every deck it could possibly go up against. over 1000 random matches. This is, in my experience, a meta call deck and works so much better if you treat it as such. Don't just assume that what works for one person will work for you as well.
Ok guys, just finished my UW emeria, wanted GW but if you think is rubbish...
No one likes Devout Lightcaster? I think is perfect as sideboard option. She can kill dredge guys, Tasigur, Dark confidant and Liliana...and can be recovered.
I would like to see more lists and tournement reports if possible.
I'll try this deck tomorrow!
Devout Lightcaster would work better in a mono-white Emeria Titan build, as it costs WWW. Otherwise, Celestial Purge costs less to cast, is an instant, and affects red as well.
Devout Lightcaster is too narrow and difficult to cast, I wouldn't recommend it.
I don't agree about G/W being worse and I don't think that anyone here actually tried it.
If I had the necessary cards (Voice, Finks, T.Tracker and Primeval Titan) I would test in on mtgo myself.
Again, WG is not necessarily worse than mono-W, but it is generally worse than WU or WB. The reason is that WG doubles down on the endurance and creature strength that mono-W already has, but still folds hard to anything with either a very aggressive clock or a non-creature based strategy. It lacks for interaction and disruption. You're throwing good cards into the deck that don't close the game much more effectively than Sun Titan or a white PW already could, so it doesn't change much.
What kind of interaction does Blue add to the deck ?
I've only seen Negate which doesn't give an actual edge against any of the popular decks and is rather narrow.
Sakura-Tribe Elder offers increased speed and consistency to the deck and Tireless Tracker is a good card draw + beater choice for the deck. Nissa, Vital Force can close the game when necessary with 5/5 land beats or drown the opponent in card advantage by ultimating quickly and can also be another recursion engine for the deck in addition to Sun Titan (can bring it back).
What kind of interaction does Blue add to the deck ?
I've only seen Negate which doesn't give an actual edge against any of the popular decks and is rather narrow.
Sakura-Tribe Elder offers increased speed and consistency to the deck and Tireless Tracker is a good card draw + beater choice for the deck. Nissa, Vital Force can close the game when necessary with 5/5 land beats or drown the opponent in card advantage by ultimating quickly and can also be another recursion engine for the deck in addition to Sun Titan (can bring it back).
The metagame has swung back toward creatures quite a bit. That doesn't mean WG has the tools to beat Urza-Tron, UWR Harbringer, Scapeshift, ANT, and Breach. These and others like them can only be answered effectively and broadly by countermagic/discard. Some can be answered with a specific permanent like RiP, Thalia, or Runed Halo, but those are narrow answers. Negate has game against most of these.
I don't think the cards you mention (except STE) really bring anything game-changing to the table. They're not bad cards, but they rarely win games you wouldn't have won with options in mono-W, WU, or WB.
Anyway, if your meta is completely saturated with creature-based opponents, you don't care. Otherwise, I suspect you could easily fit a small black splash (2 shocks, 1 basic). This would allow you to add Duress and Thoughtseize to your SB, which would give you disruption against a lot of opponents.
Gaddock Teeg can shut down a lot of combo decks (Nahiri, Breach, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseum and also any non-creature cards in Tron besides O-Stone) and this deck can bring it back with E.Witness, S.Titan or Nissa so if you want to specifically target them it is possible I just don't think it is particularly necessary at the moment.
Holding up Negate all game and not developing your board or having a clock isn't a great plan imho.
So I don't find any actual benefit to sticking to U/W and claiming that it is superior.
Do you think that Negate is the reason to prefer U/W over G/W ? (the other Blue cards are mainly interchangeable)
I didn't see any concrete explanation to why do you consider U/W as the preferable color combination for this archtype.
This deck is a permanents-focused deck and isn't a draw-go type deck that plays mostly at instant speed.
I've also seen maximum 2-4 counterpells across the different builds so claiming that they are an integral part of the strategy of the deck is not correct imho.
I would also prefer to discuss specific card choices over generally discussing colors.
Of the color combinations they have mentioned. The option of mono white what pairings would be higher or lower compared to other splashes? In the goal in which I am is more aggro than something else, so far I have been better the option of mono W, many times with the blue stagnated the blue and I could not get a good match, maybe failed to test more.
Thank you for the discussion of this entertaining deck.
I've just been reading the past few pages of the primer to see if I want to build this deck and I saw everyone was talking about what colors. I was wondering how the Jeskai version for Saheeli was, did anyone test it?
Of the color combinations they have mentioned. The option of mono white what pairings would be higher or lower compared to other splashes? In the goal in which I am is more aggro than something else, so far I have been better the option of mono W, many times with the blue stagnated the blue and I could not get a good match, maybe failed to test more.
Thank you for the discussion of this entertaining deck.
I've just been reading the past few pages of the primer to see if I want to build this deck and I saw everyone was talking about what colors. I was wondering how the Jeskai version for Saheeli was, did anyone test it?
Mono-W is definitely the most "aggro," but this isn't really an aggro deck. There is a pretty awesome UW Midrange that works.
Red sadly doesn't add very much to the deck, aside from a few specific hate cards.
Green gives the deck more durability (which it already has a lot of) and speed. Blue gives the deck versatile disruption and card advantage. Black gives the deck the earliest disruption, but that's about it.
So maybe the better question for a second color, what are the bad match-ups for the deck?
On the first post, ENCOhRE lists competitive Modern deck match-ups and how the UW build fares in general, including potentially bad match-ups. I presume he's used the UW build either on MTGO or at local tournaments frequently enough to compile the matchup information.
However, through this whole thread, I haven't seen a similar discussion for the GW build. The discussion of the GW build has mostly been around single cards. Maybe nobody has put the GW through its paces to get a more accurate idea of how it fares.
I play the UW version, but I would imagine the GW version would have the same bad match-ups. The worst match-ups are archetypes that go big, like RG Tron, or Mid-Range decks with a high threat density. I've noticed this deck struggles most with Planeswalkers and big creatures.
Once a Planeswalker lands on the board, it can be really hard to deal with. Save your Negate for planeswalkers. Emeria Titan doesn't have enough aggressive creatures to reliably kill/tick down planeswalkers in the early turns. Flickerwisp can blink and reset, but it has to survive another turn before attacking the walker. Karn is just awful to deal with, and can set you back dramatically. You can detention sphere if you are on the play. If not, your probably a land short. If your opponent lands a Karn on turn 3 or 4, that's probably a game loss. Even if you have a couple of Missionaries out, they will get Exiled faster than they can attack, or swept with pyroclasm. GW would probably have a harder time against Tron without counters or D-Sphere (although O-Ring would work too).
Mid-range decks with large creatures and a high threat density are tough too. If you run out of removal, games swing in their favor. Without sometime like Snapcaster mage you can very quickly run out of removal. Aggro decks with X/2's or X/3's aren't a big deal if you leave one or two on the board, but 5/5's are tough. You can only block them once with your 2 and 3 drops. I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi, but I can imagine the match-up isn't great if you can't Wrath something other than dorks. I played against a standard Eldrazi deck with a bunch of 4-6 drops and planeswalkers, and I was way behind the whole time. I didn't win a game in the match, so I imagine the Modern tuned deck is more difficult. Playing against 5, 6, or 7 drop creatures is a weak point for the deck. Sun titan is usually the biggest dude on the board, but he's also a magnet for removal, so he may not get to block.
This deck is definitely Meta dependent and is best against faster aggro decks (like Zoo or Naya Burn) or attrition decks with lower threat densities (Jund, Abzan). I haven't had much trouble with Infect or Boggles for some reason. You just have to remember to switch to a more control style.
When I last played the deck 2 months ago, I went with Bant and I don't think I would go back to playing Sun Titan over his Green (and mean) cousin. Ewit and Scooze are awesome too. Beast Within is super versatile.
My Bant list could sure use a lot of tweaking, but I'm pretty conviced that Primeval Titan is the way to go. I started with a split and eventually ditched the Sun Titan, which wasn't as busted without Flickerwisp/Phantasmal Image.
I liked Ewit better as a recuraion engine anyways. Getting back counters/Paths/Wraths/Command gives a lot of flexibility.
I'll convede that the the cpunter suite needs tweaking, but I 'm pretty sure that Condescend has a place in the deck (but it might be more a sideboard thing).
I played Garruk Wilspeaker a bit, but it was only interesting against midrange. I hadn't considred the new Nissa yet.
If you're adding a ton of green to the point of playing with things like Garruk and Primal Command, you're better off playing a Green Devotion variant. They do this better than we do.
I think color-balance is hard in Bant, and it takes its toll on Emeria. However, if you're willing to flip out Emeria and play Sun Titan with Eternal Witness, I think WGU or WGB has serious possibilities.
I'd have to say that this archetype is so much better when you decide what you want to win against and what you are comfortable taking a loss to if it shows up. I play W<> because it just wrecks every aggro deck in the format. Other versions may be more adept at taking on control or combo decks as in the UW versions. If you want to just stomp on jund all day, maybe GW with like thragtusks and finks would be the correct course.
Just wanted to point out that this deck gets better if you don't look at it as a deck that needs to beat every deck it could possibly go up against. over 1000 random matches. This is, in my experience, a meta call deck and works so much better if you treat it as such. Don't just assume that what works for one person will work for you as well.
Modern:
GR Tron
WU Emeria Control
Legacy:
R Painter
Commander:
Atraxa Superfriends
Devout Lightcaster would work better in a mono-white Emeria Titan build, as it costs WWW. Otherwise, Celestial Purge costs less to cast, is an instant, and affects red as well.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I don't agree about G/W being worse and I don't think that anyone here actually tried it.
If I had the necessary cards (Voice, Finks, T.Tracker and Primeval Titan) I would test in on mtgo myself.
Now that I think about it, Primeval Titan and Voice of Resurgence might not be necessary (as good as they are) and cards like Nissa, Vital Force and Oath of Nissa might fit the deck better.
Here is my new build idea:
4x Wall of Omens
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Flickerwisp
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Eternal Witness
3x Sun Titan
Planeswalker (2)
2x Nissa, Vital Force
Instant (6)
4x Path to Exile
2x Blessed Alliance
3x Wrath of God
Enchantment (3)
3x Oath of Nissa
Land (23)
4x Windswept Heath
4x Temple Garden
3x Canopy Vista
5x Plains
1x Forest
3x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Beast Within
1x Wrath of God
1x Ghostly Prison
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Runed Halo
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stony Silence
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I've only seen Negate which doesn't give an actual edge against any of the popular decks and is rather narrow.
The other Blue cards of the deck are: Supreme Verdict and Court Hussar which can be easily substituted by Wrath of God and Oath of Nissa, and also Detention Sphere which is tougher to replace with the possible alternatives being: Oblivion Ring, Beast Within and Declaration in Stone though I like Blessed Alliance over any of them in the MD at the moment.
Sakura-Tribe Elder offers increased speed and consistency to the deck and Tireless Tracker is a good card draw + beater choice for the deck.
Nissa, Vital Force can close the game when necessary with 5/5 land beats or drown the opponent in card advantage by ultimating quickly and can also be another recursion engine for the deck in addition to Sun Titan (can bring it back).
The metagame has swung back toward creatures quite a bit. That doesn't mean WG has the tools to beat Urza-Tron, UWR Harbringer, Scapeshift, ANT, and Breach. These and others like them can only be answered effectively and broadly by countermagic/discard. Some can be answered with a specific permanent like RiP, Thalia, or Runed Halo, but those are narrow answers. Negate has game against most of these.
I don't think the cards you mention (except STE) really bring anything game-changing to the table. They're not bad cards, but they rarely win games you wouldn't have won with options in mono-W, WU, or WB.
Anyway, if your meta is completely saturated with creature-based opponents, you don't care. Otherwise, I suspect you could easily fit a small black splash (2 shocks, 1 basic). This would allow you to add Duress and Thoughtseize to your SB, which would give you disruption against a lot of opponents.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Besides this there are: Nevermore, Runed Halo or even Surgical Extraction can do some work against the combo decks.
Holding up Negate all game and not developing your board or having a clock isn't a great plan imho.
So I don't find any actual benefit to sticking to U/W and claiming that it is superior.
Do you think that Negate is the reason to prefer U/W over G/W ? (the other Blue cards are mainly interchangeable)
I didn't see any concrete explanation to why do you consider U/W as the preferable color combination for this archtype.
This deck is a permanents-focused deck and isn't a draw-go type deck that plays mostly at instant speed.
I've also seen maximum 2-4 counterpells across the different builds so claiming that they are an integral part of the strategy of the deck is not correct imho.
I would also prefer to discuss specific card choices over generally discussing colors.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Thank you for the discussion of this entertaining deck.
Mono-W is definitely the most "aggro," but this isn't really an aggro deck. There is a pretty awesome UW Midrange that works.
Red sadly doesn't add very much to the deck, aside from a few specific hate cards.
Green gives the deck more durability (which it already has a lot of) and speed. Blue gives the deck versatile disruption and card advantage. Black gives the deck the earliest disruption, but that's about it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
On the first post, ENCOhRE lists competitive Modern deck match-ups and how the UW build fares in general, including potentially bad match-ups. I presume he's used the UW build either on MTGO or at local tournaments frequently enough to compile the matchup information.
However, through this whole thread, I haven't seen a similar discussion for the GW build. The discussion of the GW build has mostly been around single cards. Maybe nobody has put the GW through its paces to get a more accurate idea of how it fares.
Once a Planeswalker lands on the board, it can be really hard to deal with. Save your Negate for planeswalkers. Emeria Titan doesn't have enough aggressive creatures to reliably kill/tick down planeswalkers in the early turns. Flickerwisp can blink and reset, but it has to survive another turn before attacking the walker. Karn is just awful to deal with, and can set you back dramatically. You can detention sphere if you are on the play. If not, your probably a land short. If your opponent lands a Karn on turn 3 or 4, that's probably a game loss. Even if you have a couple of Missionaries out, they will get Exiled faster than they can attack, or swept with pyroclasm. GW would probably have a harder time against Tron without counters or D-Sphere (although O-Ring would work too).
Mid-range decks with large creatures and a high threat density are tough too. If you run out of removal, games swing in their favor. Without sometime like Snapcaster mage you can very quickly run out of removal. Aggro decks with X/2's or X/3's aren't a big deal if you leave one or two on the board, but 5/5's are tough. You can only block them once with your 2 and 3 drops. I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi, but I can imagine the match-up isn't great if you can't Wrath something other than dorks. I played against a standard Eldrazi deck with a bunch of 4-6 drops and planeswalkers, and I was way behind the whole time. I didn't win a game in the match, so I imagine the Modern tuned deck is more difficult. Playing against 5, 6, or 7 drop creatures is a weak point for the deck. Sun titan is usually the biggest dude on the board, but he's also a magnet for removal, so he may not get to block.
This deck is definitely Meta dependent and is best against faster aggro decks (like Zoo or Naya Burn) or attrition decks with lower threat densities (Jund, Abzan). I haven't had much trouble with Infect or Boggles for some reason. You just have to remember to switch to a more control style.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-deck-creation/600378-mono-value-control-aka-azorious-titan?page=95#c1925
There is something there, but it didn't break anything.
Tron is winnable, RG Breach is a breeze. Ad Nauseum is winnable.
I would rather cut Acidic Slime or Restoration Angel.
Have you considered trying the new Nissa, Vital Force ?
She does almost everying we want to do with the deck.
The Primal Command tech seems pretty good to find a Titan or another relevant creature.
I don't like Condescend though as it seems only good in Blue Tron where you have (almost) infinite mana to abuse it.
I liked Ewit better as a recuraion engine anyways. Getting back counters/Paths/Wraths/Command gives a lot of flexibility.
I'll convede that the the cpunter suite needs tweaking, but I 'm pretty sure that Condescend has a place in the deck (but it might be more a sideboard thing).
I played Garruk Wilspeaker a bit, but it was only interesting against midrange. I hadn't considred the new Nissa yet.
I think color-balance is hard in Bant, and it takes its toll on Emeria. However, if you're willing to flip out Emeria and play Sun Titan with Eternal Witness, I think WGU or WGB has serious possibilities.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB