I agree with just about everything that's been said so far. Cryptic and Ancestral do not belong in the same deck. Personally I keep Cryptic around for 2 reasons
It reminds me of Twin
It's good in the grindy matchups and against Tron
My local meta is heavy on decks like Jund, Tron, Skred (!), etc that tap out for big stuff. I feel that Cryptic shines against decks like that. If I were to go to a larger event I would likely keep the Cryptics in because I'm used to them (and Grixis seems to be on the downturn, which is nice).
No, it's not a major difference if you're looking at just the cards, but after watching many pros and hearing some of how they go through things, they do play the decks differently. Shaun piloted a list very close to what he took to WMCQ for a couple months prior while testing some new ideas. He generally like to play a control style and based on arguments with his chat, he's equally fine using Nahiri for bait, as value and a finisher. Gerry T. early on also played the deck with a control style, but over time, he has focused his list on the combo, and the way he plays it shows that (as well as his explanations). He also doesn't mind playing it for value, but he specifically stated that he wants put it down and protect it (sort of at all costs).
Peter Ingram has said in interviews that he was not a fan of Lightning Helix in his deck and that he tended to board them out a lot. Gerry T. has mirrored a similar sentiment. The only reason they have kept some number around is respect for the Zoo and Burn matchup IIRC. They're not really interested in going with the Burn plan.
Hm, I suppose I can see that -- i.e., the difference between whether you are ok using Nahiri as 'bait' or whether you feel more of a need to protect her. I wonder if a compromise would be a 24-land deck with more burn (Electrolyze, Helix; Cryptic optional) and only 3 Nahiri. If the goal of a McLaren-style list is essentially to incorporate the Nahiri combo into a traditional Jeskai control build, but still lean heavily on the traditional tools, perhaps it would be fine to cut a single Nahiri for an 'action' card. That seems like an interesting way to approach the deck. Perhaps something like:
I don't like the idea of only have 2 Colonnades if the goal is to rely more heavily on the burn/Colonnade plan, and anything less than 4 Path to Exile seems wrong to me. Perhaps it's just my experience so far, but my meta tends to be quite aggressive.
On the other hand, Nahiri does provide a real clock, and has won me games I would not have won otherwise, so decreasing the odds of finding a copy (or a second copy) does feel a little wrong.
[BTW, typing this out helped me figure out a couple things I've definitely been doing wrong/confusing].
Care to share? I'm sure just about any insight would help me, if not anyone else.
i.e., the difference between whether you are ok using Nahiri as 'bait' or whether you feel more of a need to protect her.
Once in a while you should be baiting the opponent, like when you have 2 Nahiris in hand and not much else, the same using her as a removal. I mean, it's a blue style of play 'doing anything to stay alive then building card advantage to turn the tide'. Of course playing Nahiri to remove something is not the best play -only in theory as context will be the last judge on that- but the fact that Nahiri can remove a threat makes her the powerhouse she is, otherwise we might still be playing jeskai flash or midrange.
i.e., the difference between whether you are ok using Nahiri as 'bait' or whether you feel more of a need to protect her.
Once in a while you should be baiting the opponent, like when you have 2 Nahiris in hand and not much else, the same using her as a removal. I mean, it's a blue style of play 'doing anything to stay alive then building card advantage to turn the tide'. Of course playing Nahiri to remove something is not the best play -only in theory as context will be the last judge on that- but the fact that Nahiri can remove a threat makes her the powerhouse she is, otherwise we might still be playing jeskai flash or midrange.
Of course. I think all of these discussions between the 23-land (Ingram/Davis) and 24-land (McLaren) decks, and this quoted text as well, are very much on the margins, rather than fundamental differences.
@LeakyMana, I've had tons of games where I've tossed Path to Exile into the bin to get almost anything else even against aggro and midrange decks. It's a good catch-all piece of removal but giving them land feels really bad lately. It even felt bad (but very necessary) in the Bant Eldrazi test match I played last night. It's hard to justify playing Path to Exile and Mana Leak in the same deck. To an extent, it can make Remand bad as well.
Not at all on the second part. I've made some main deck choices for a play style that are cross between the two styles without understanding why. For instance, I wasn't a fan of main deck Timely Reinforcements, but I assumed it was 23-land version's response to metagame pressures so I made similar choices based on my metagame. Now I'm not sure of that. I think it and main deck Anger of the Gods are largely used as stall tactics to lay the ground work and protect the Nahiri combo instead of being truly worried that they were possibly matched up against faster decks. I mean with so many pieces of removal and early game counter magic, I really didn't understand the point of main deck Timely Reinforcements at all or having up to 2 main deck Anger of the Gods (unless you deal with a lot of Melira CoCo). I was also playing a Supreme Verdict in the main deck of a 23-land version and that just seems wrong for a couple of reasons. Or at least seems closer to wrong than right. The rest is just similar stuff like this. A lot of main deck choices, numbers and how they should be used. I've generally felt more comfortable with the more control-like versions, but I could not for the life of me pilot the other version at all really. I don't mean to imply that I've been rocking along nicely with the control versions, but I definitely think I understand that one better.
I've been running one cryptic and 3 AV and it hasn't seemed like an issue. I just like the utility of cryptic, plus some game you just need a late game hard counter. I also went down to 2 remand and have been main decking a single negate. It's been overall pretty great. Another one of I've been testing is secure the wastes. It has over performed for me. Early game you can get 1-3 blockers in a pinch (and sometimes kill an attacker) and late game it can just win. It's also not bad to drop the turn before nahiri to provide some chump blockers.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Off AV/Cryptic topic. But right now i'm not playing any Helixes in the MB and considering cutting the 1-of from the SB.
The issue with Helix right now is that Jeskai Harbinger has many turn 1 blue spells that you really want to cast on Turn 1. This also leads to a decrease in Colonnades, which is amazing since Colonnade is Modern's best manland, right there with Ravine.
Playing turn 1 AV or Serum off an Island against aggro is essential to set up your later turns and develop a nice gameplan, and most important make sure you don't draw into air, like Remands or Colonnades.
Helix shines against aggro, at the same time you can't Helix on turn 2 off an Island, so shocking you on turn 1 is a must, even more if you play 2-3 Helix.
Some might say you can shoot it on turn 3 or 4, but unfortunately Modern is faster than that. Burn will just crush you if you try to catch a Goblin Guide with a Helix. Timely does the job in a better way since it has no tax whatsoever on the mana base, and the life gain comes along 3 Tokens.
Helix has been underperforming for me and i don't blame anyone for not playing any in the 75.
I'm not sure Secure the Wastes is better than Timely Reinforcements. Sure it can get you some chumps, but Timely saves your hide against Burn and Zoo.
It's a different function, serving as both a pseudo fog and a win con. I haven't mained timely in a while. More often than not I was getting either the life gain, or the creatures. There have been times where it's saved me game 1, but it's not great far more than it is (specifically in game 1). It's much better after board for me.
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Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I'm not sure Secure the Wastes is better than Timely Reinforcements. Sure it can get you some chumps, but Timely saves your hide against Burn and Zoo.
It's a different function, serving as both a pseudo fog and a win con. I haven't mained timely in a while. More often than not I was getting either the life gain, or the creatures. There have been times where it's saved me game 1, but it's not great far more than it is (specifically in game 1). It's much better after board for me.
I'm aware that they're for a different purpose. I just don't think its powerlevel is high enough to be considered over Timely Reinforcements, which does the majority of what Secure does with added utility.
I'm aware that they're for a different purpose. I just don't think its powerlevel is high enough to be considered over Timely Reinforcements, which does the majority of what Secure does with added utility.
Did you test it?
Timely is better than anything under Secure at 6 CMC.
Secure the Wastes serves a similar purpose to Sphinx's Revelation, which is giving you time. Neither Secure nor Rev are particularly good at winning the game, but they will give you enough time to keep you alive until you draw into something good. As far as I'm concerned, a Secure for x=5 is better than a Rev for x=3, but for any more mana than that, getting all of those cards is better than having the 1/1s. Sure, some decks lose to a lot of 1/1s, but if you want to win with tokens, run White Sun's. For the Nahiri version of the deck, a Rev is usually better than a Secure the Wastes for lategame. And it's been established that Timely is a better card in the first couple turns, which leaves Secure with a very small window where it's actually worth it over other cards.
So why should we be running Secure over our other choices? Timely is far more worth it early game. Rev is more worth it late game, and if you want to win with tokens, White Sun's is better.
@LeakyMana, I've had tons of games where I've tossed Path to Exile into the bin to get almost anything else even against aggro and midrange decks. It's a good catch-all piece of removal but giving them land feels really bad lately. It even felt bad (but very necessary) in the Bant Eldrazi test match I played last night. It's hard to justify playing Path to Exile and Mana Leak in the same deck. To an extent, it can make Remand bad as well.
Not at all on the second part. I've made some main deck choices for a play style that are cross between the two styles without understanding why. For instance, I wasn't a fan of main deck Timely Reinforcements, but I assumed it was 23-land version's response to metagame pressures so I made similar choices based on my metagame. Now I'm not sure of that. I think it and main deck Anger of the Gods are largely used as stall tactics to lay the ground work and protect the Nahiri combo instead of being truly worried that they were possibly matched up against faster decks. I mean with so many pieces of removal and early game counter magic, I really didn't understand the point of main deck Timely Reinforcements at all or having up to 2 main deck Anger of the Gods (unless you deal with a lot of Melira CoCo). I was also playing a Supreme Verdict in the main deck of a 23-land version and that just seems wrong for a couple of reasons. Or at least seems closer to wrong than right. The rest is just similar stuff like this. A lot of main deck choices, numbers and how they should be used. I've generally felt more comfortable with the more control-like versions, but I could not for the life of me pilot the other version at all really. I don't mean to imply that I've been rocking along nicely with the control versions, but I definitely think I understand that one better.
Food for thought: Elves and dredge are becoming increasingly popular decks. Currently those two decks alone make up 6% of the total meta (both in paper and online).
I feel like main decked anger is more of a "catch all". Because if you fall behind against a fast creature deck, it's hard to catch up.
One of the problems with this thread is that way too many people are discussing instead of having a dialog. Further alot of different people claims alot of different things without taking the time to even test things... I've always likes salvation forum but right now this particular forum is getting spammed with discussions we already had! And It's a bit exhaustion that there are so many people which base their arguments on theorycraft alone...
So for now, can we please focus on the dialog and try bring some more evidence to the table instead of all that noise?
Well not to get too off topic but a large portion of this thread is concerned with hearing other peoples opinions/experiences.
The primer is supposed to eliminate redundant discussions by being updated with pertinent information, but that probably mostly gets overlooked by the readers.
Without exhaustive testing, any evidence for our claims/opinions/stances is mostly anecdotal; meaning any convincing has to be done in the form of reason (hence the theorycraft).
For instance @aRSKOG you have been championing Secure the Wastes for a little while now. I don't have a solid opinion or feedback since I don't even own any copies of the card, let alone have tried it in my builds.
That said I think the card has merit as a 'spell based threat' that has both defensive and offensive utility. A token maker at instant speed is no joke. My only concern is that current builds of Jeskai are staying around 23-24 lands and are focused on really gaining an advantage in the game on turns 4-7. So at what point does Secure the Wastes functionally outweigh the value of spells that it is displacing in the deck? For instance does the card shine when you can make 3 tokens? 5? 7? Would the card function better in a shell supporting 25-26 lands similar to older modern control decks with White Sun's Zenith?
Also a lot of noise is to be expected at tier 1 status. More people pick up the deck and want to find information/feedback.
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I agree with what people are saying as I shouldn't be replacing timely with secure, but what I said was that I had stopped running secure a while ago in the main, so secure isn't a replacement for me. Granted I could just throw timely back in, but what I was saying is that secure seemed more universally useful to me. It's something you can play on an empty board, preceding Nahiri for extra protection, it's a surprise blocker when need be, and it can give you a little offense. When timely is good, it's damned great, but I've found the times that I actually want it to be fairly small, which is why I've sent it to the side. But this depends on the meta, for sure, and this has probably been a function of my local meta specifically.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Food for thought: Elves and dredge are becoming increasingly popular decks. Currently those two decks alone make up 6% of the total meta (both in paper and online).
I feel like main decked anger is more of a "catch all". Because if you fall behind against a fast creature deck, it's hard to catch up.
Well Elves is a laughable matchup as long as you have the tools. The Elves deck waxes and wanes in popularity/power when other non-interactive decks crop up because it can consistently goldfish turn 4 kills, while having just generally good beatdown potential. The biggest problem with elves is that it takes so much splash damage from other popular creature/aggro decks. GR TRon going down in rep also helps elves too.
Dredge is a deck/matchup that players should really consider if they are entering a competitive modern event in the near future. The deck is powerful and is very resilient to our forms of interaction. Spot removal and permission spells go down the toilet against them, and they can play around/rebuild after sweepers relatively easily. Having solid forms of GY hate (Cage, T-Crypt, RIP, etc) might become more necessary in the upcoming weeks.
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I don't think a quick summary of the article is disrespectful to be honest. If you think about book reviews/summaries, it is nothing wrong about that..
I wasn't asking for a detailed review neither the article itself.
Just some thought's and i was interested in seeing Jim give his take on AV and/or lands, Colonnades,etc. The heated topics of this forum, which would be of great benefit for everyone on this thread.
No try to harm or anything.
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My local meta is heavy on decks like Jund, Tron, Skred (!), etc that tap out for big stuff. I feel that Cryptic shines against decks like that. If I were to go to a larger event I would likely keep the Cryptics in because I'm used to them (and Grixis seems to be on the downturn, which is nice).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Hm, I suppose I can see that -- i.e., the difference between whether you are ok using Nahiri as 'bait' or whether you feel more of a need to protect her. I wonder if a compromise would be a 24-land deck with more burn (Electrolyze, Helix; Cryptic optional) and only 3 Nahiri. If the goal of a McLaren-style list is essentially to incorporate the Nahiri combo into a traditional Jeskai control build, but still lean heavily on the traditional tools, perhaps it would be fine to cut a single Nahiri for an 'action' card. That seems like an interesting way to approach the deck. Perhaps something like:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
I don't like the idea of only have 2 Colonnades if the goal is to rely more heavily on the burn/Colonnade plan, and anything less than 4 Path to Exile seems wrong to me. Perhaps it's just my experience so far, but my meta tends to be quite aggressive.
On the other hand, Nahiri does provide a real clock, and has won me games I would not have won otherwise, so decreasing the odds of finding a copy (or a second copy) does feel a little wrong.
Care to share? I'm sure just about any insight would help me, if not anyone else.
Once in a while you should be baiting the opponent, like when you have 2 Nahiris in hand and not much else, the same using her as a removal. I mean, it's a blue style of play 'doing anything to stay alive then building card advantage to turn the tide'. Of course playing Nahiri to remove something is not the best play -only in theory as context will be the last judge on that- but the fact that Nahiri can remove a threat makes her the powerhouse she is, otherwise we might still be playing jeskai flash or midrange.
Of course. I think all of these discussions between the 23-land (Ingram/Davis) and 24-land (McLaren) decks, and this quoted text as well, are very much on the margins, rather than fundamental differences.
Not at all on the second part. I've made some main deck choices for a play style that are cross between the two styles without understanding why. For instance, I wasn't a fan of main deck Timely Reinforcements, but I assumed it was 23-land version's response to metagame pressures so I made similar choices based on my metagame. Now I'm not sure of that. I think it and main deck Anger of the Gods are largely used as stall tactics to lay the ground work and protect the Nahiri combo instead of being truly worried that they were possibly matched up against faster decks. I mean with so many pieces of removal and early game counter magic, I really didn't understand the point of main deck Timely Reinforcements at all or having up to 2 main deck Anger of the Gods (unless you deal with a lot of Melira CoCo). I was also playing a Supreme Verdict in the main deck of a 23-land version and that just seems wrong for a couple of reasons. Or at least seems closer to wrong than right. The rest is just similar stuff like this. A lot of main deck choices, numbers and how they should be used. I've generally felt more comfortable with the more control-like versions, but I could not for the life of me pilot the other version at all really. I don't mean to imply that I've been rocking along nicely with the control versions, but I definitely think I understand that one better.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
The issue with Helix right now is that Jeskai Harbinger has many turn 1 blue spells that you really want to cast on Turn 1. This also leads to a decrease in Colonnades, which is amazing since Colonnade is Modern's best manland, right there with Ravine.
Playing turn 1 AV or Serum off an Island against aggro is essential to set up your later turns and develop a nice gameplan, and most important make sure you don't draw into air, like Remands or Colonnades.
Helix shines against aggro, at the same time you can't Helix on turn 2 off an Island, so shocking you on turn 1 is a must, even more if you play 2-3 Helix.
Some might say you can shoot it on turn 3 or 4, but unfortunately Modern is faster than that. Burn will just crush you if you try to catch a Goblin Guide with a Helix. Timely does the job in a better way since it has no tax whatsoever on the mana base, and the life gain comes along 3 Tokens.
Helix has been underperforming for me and i don't blame anyone for not playing any in the 75.
It's a different function, serving as both a pseudo fog and a win con. I haven't mained timely in a while. More often than not I was getting either the life gain, or the creatures. There have been times where it's saved me game 1, but it's not great far more than it is (specifically in game 1). It's much better after board for me.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Then i might cut 1 Nahiri depending on the matchup.
But AV comes out against few decks in my opinion, it kinda glues GerryT decklist, which is very close to what i'm playing ATM.
I'm aware that they're for a different purpose. I just don't think its powerlevel is high enough to be considered over Timely Reinforcements, which does the majority of what Secure does with added utility.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Timely is better than anything under Secure at 6 CMC.
I don't think it's particularly close.
So why should we be running Secure over our other choices? Timely is far more worth it early game. Rev is more worth it late game, and if you want to win with tokens, White Sun's is better.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Food for thought: Elves and dredge are becoming increasingly popular decks. Currently those two decks alone make up 6% of the total meta (both in paper and online).
I feel like main decked anger is more of a "catch all". Because if you fall behind against a fast creature deck, it's hard to catch up.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Well not to get too off topic but a large portion of this thread is concerned with hearing other peoples opinions/experiences.
The primer is supposed to eliminate redundant discussions by being updated with pertinent information, but that probably mostly gets overlooked by the readers.
Without exhaustive testing, any evidence for our claims/opinions/stances is mostly anecdotal; meaning any convincing has to be done in the form of reason (hence the theorycraft).
For instance @aRSKOG you have been championing Secure the Wastes for a little while now. I don't have a solid opinion or feedback since I don't even own any copies of the card, let alone have tried it in my builds.
That said I think the card has merit as a 'spell based threat' that has both defensive and offensive utility. A token maker at instant speed is no joke. My only concern is that current builds of Jeskai are staying around 23-24 lands and are focused on really gaining an advantage in the game on turns 4-7. So at what point does Secure the Wastes functionally outweigh the value of spells that it is displacing in the deck? For instance does the card shine when you can make 3 tokens? 5? 7? Would the card function better in a shell supporting 25-26 lands similar to older modern control decks with White Sun's Zenith?
Also a lot of noise is to be expected at tier 1 status. More people pick up the deck and want to find information/feedback.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I agree with what people are saying as I shouldn't be replacing timely with secure, but what I said was that I had stopped running secure a while ago in the main, so secure isn't a replacement for me. Granted I could just throw timely back in, but what I was saying is that secure seemed more universally useful to me. It's something you can play on an empty board, preceding Nahiri for extra protection, it's a surprise blocker when need be, and it can give you a little offense. When timely is good, it's damned great, but I've found the times that I actually want it to be fairly small, which is why I've sent it to the side. But this depends on the meta, for sure, and this has probably been a function of my local meta specifically.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Well Elves is a laughable matchup as long as you have the tools. The Elves deck waxes and wanes in popularity/power when other non-interactive decks crop up because it can consistently goldfish turn 4 kills, while having just generally good beatdown potential. The biggest problem with elves is that it takes so much splash damage from other popular creature/aggro decks. GR TRon going down in rep also helps elves too.
Dredge is a deck/matchup that players should really consider if they are entering a competitive modern event in the near future. The deck is powerful and is very resilient to our forms of interaction. Spot removal and permission spells go down the toilet against them, and they can play around/rebuild after sweepers relatively easily. Having solid forms of GY hate (Cage, T-Crypt, RIP, etc) might become more necessary in the upcoming weeks.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Too bad is on Premium. To the guys who have it, you can make a quick revision later and we'll all be thankful.
Just some thought's and i was interested in seeing Jim give his take on AV and/or lands, Colonnades,etc. The heated topics of this forum, which would be of great benefit for everyone on this thread.
No try to harm or anything.