thats the thing though. we havent really questioned whether jace was worth including. the cost of snap may be low, but look at jace. requires blue mana, and fetch lands. jeskai lists have literally made zero concessions to try and optimize jace. if its a protect the queen type of card, with all that entails, then why arent we doing more to protect it?
it may be the case that trying to protect jace just for a few brainstorms isnt worth it. or that brainstorming itself, which amounts to a single card a turn, isnt good enough because the cards we play arent individually impactful enough. maybe we are better served just generating a blocker with gideon or exiling with nahiri than brainstorming and seeing cards that dont line up with what our opponent has on the board.
the most glaring difference is just the raw card advantage, which jeskai has always had an issue with. running multiple sphinx's rev isnt wise, and AV has proven to be a dud.
basically if jace isnt powerful/impactful enough to run on its own merit, and we cant reliably protect it; then maybe it should be a 1-of or not run at all.
That was my argument early on. I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from it. My thinking is that if Jace were that good, I feel Nahiri would be better.
I'm more curious if anyone has done any testing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor to know if it's really making a difference. The folks in the Esper control thread are working towards something but they also seem befuddled by Jace and Search for Azcanta. I can somewhat understand Search not being as amazing in Esper as it is in Jeskai, but some of them outright don't like the card, which I find strange.
maybe? i havent done dedicated testing myself, but my general impression is that im not winning or losing more to any noticeable degree. my local meta has also been shifting around. jund players coming out of the woodwork, ponza, hollow one are matchups that im facing more.
it definitely isnt close to the same level as bbe with jund. where you can play a few games and immediately notice a difference.
im going to stay the course for the time being. both because i cant test in a manner to get meaningful results, and because i bought these jaces so im gonna damn well play with them for more than a month and a half.
ill keep an open mind though.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
As one of those people who dislikes search, comparing it jace in general is basically "do you prefer having a very vulnerable, but very powerful walker that costs more upfront but no recurring cost vs a less vulnerable enchantment/land that costs less upfront but costs a lot each turn" and paying 4 mana a turn for a card isn't tempting to me. Also with all of the spreading seas, field of ruins, and blood moons, field is still pretty vulnerable.
IMO, keeping the board clear is a better proposition in general though. With the advent of jace, most blue decks are dropping a lot of their top end, and lowering their curve. Essentially tapping out every turn to activate azcanta is not great, given that we need to be spending a lot of mana to interact with our opponent (even if we aren't playing jace).
Of course, part of the problem with jace is that he's better with board wipes, and not spot removal (since you need the board just about totally cleared to drop him) which makes him less appealing in lightning bolt decks.
In modern, I think it will become pretty clear soon that the best jace decks are the ones with a proactive element (blue moon, bug midrangey things, bant coco, etc) and not hard control.
Does that mean that the hard control decks shouldn't play jace? Maybe, maybe not. I think the whole "is jace really worth it?" is a fair question to ask, but the power of the card is such that it feels difficult to argue that building the deck around jace isn't the best course of action.
theres the contradiction though. jace, or any card advantage engine in general, pushes you to load up on cheap interaction with the expectation that you reload and pull ahead. sweepers are not cheap interaction, but are power plays that catch you up.
on top of this modern is a format that is creature laden, and thus anything that can push through or punish a sweeper is at a premium. then there are the cases where spot removal is relevant to stop various combos.
the only time i can recall sweeper heavy control being successful was during eldrazi winter when UW ran 4+ with a sat of both snaps and jace VP.
while there is still the possibility of a truly good jace deck showing up, that window is rapidly closing and the argument that people arent building decks correctly looks feeble in the face of results saying otherwise. so far the better performing jace decks have been control oriented if you include blue moon with combo finishes.
it doesnt have to be all or nothing though. jeskai has been treating jace as a value piece, which i still think is correct. jeskai nahiri proved that defending a 4 cmc walker isnt easy. however this doesnt mean there arent smaller changes that can be made to improve jaces effectiveness without deviating from the elements that make jeskai good. maybe having stronger 3 mana plays like anger of the gods, timely reinforcements, or gideon3 is the way to go.
it would take a lot to convince me that at least 1 jace doesnt warrant inclusion in the 75. besides being an allstar in certain matchups, it is the best wincon we could hope for that circumvents the combat step.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Jace is better in blue moon because in general, your opponents have to just bend over and take him far more often/to a much higher degree.
As soon as your opponent recognizes that you could be on blue moon, they have to handicap themselves by finding basics. They have to make sure they aren't giving up too much to your moons, to your remands, etc.
Its like twin, where what you're not doing makes what you are doing that much better.
One thing that hasn't been brought up much is how high the skill ceiling of Jace really is- many people think that brainstorming at every opportunity you have is correcT- this is 100% incorrect. Oftentimes it is actually correct to +2 on your opponent. I'm going to go over how to play Jace in the most optimal way possible when I get back from work today- I see people misplaying with him all the time and it's starting to tilt me.
Guys, the deck is still top tier, and is still having good results; don't get discouraged. Remember this deck is very tough to play.
So, let's talk about it: what are the problems with it right now? What's holding us back from being the #1 deck?
well i dunno about being #1. modern just isnt that type of format.
right now i think people are still confused about where jace fits into the equation. especially since it forces us to ask ourselves if the big jeskai list we have been running for the last few months, with a few card changes here and there, is really the best configuration.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I still think it is. Obviously things change, but right now if we configure to handle
1. Hollow One.
2. Humans.
3. Burn.
4. Storm.
While not being dead to Eldrazi/Tron? I think thats where we want to be.
Jace is a perfectly fine engine card. Brainstorm is more than '1 card' its 'see 4 cards, and if you have 5 cards in hand, keep the best 3'. I mean at worst, you draw jace with no hand, play him, brainstorm, and keep the best one.
Anyway, building to beat those 4 decks, seems to be where we want to be. If we can handle Jund at the same time, or Mardu, thats as solid a deck as I can hope for, while playing fair.
Damping Sphere is 100% going in my side though, I know that much.
One thing that hasn't been brought up much is how high the skill ceiling of Jace really is- many people think that brainstorming at every opportunity you have is correcT- this is 100% incorrect. Oftentimes it is actually correct to +2 on your opponent. I'm going to go over how to play Jace in the most optimal way possible when I get back from work today- I see people misplaying with him all the time and it's starting to tilt me.
when i think people are misplaying jace its the opposite of what you describe. they start fatesealing too often or early.
im interested to see how you break down how to play jace, since its entirely contextual.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I think it became pretty simple really. Obviously the lines will be unique within a game but to me it broke down.
1. Do I cast Jace and lose? Dont cast him.
2. Can I protect him at 3 Loyalty? Cast and brainstorm.
3. Can I protect him at 5 Loyalty? Cast and fateseal.
3a. Do I need to draw into an answer? Fateseal me.
3b. Do I need to prevent them drawing or gain knowledge? Fateseal them.
4. Do I need Answers or do I have them?
4a. I need answers, brainstorm.
4b. I have them, and opponent is in top deck? fateseal.
4c. I have them, and opponent is not in top deck and is not applying pressure? This is where you look at the lines available and is where teh depth comes in.
im not sure direfleet can ever be a reliable main deck card unless you have a very good idea of the decks you are playing against. the floor on the card is low, but has massive blowout potential in fair matchups that are spell heavy.
having it as a spicy 1-of, especially paired with resto seems fine. first strike is relevant as well being able to win in combat with burn spells.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Not sure if that card is very good. I'd rather use Stifle
Did you mean something else? Stifle, is not Modern Legal.
The plus (again I have not tried it) is this is a relevant body, with Flash and Flying like Clique, while also potentially stopping something bad (Storm triggers, World Breakers, etc) putting a card in the yard for Logic Knot, while also drawing into something new.
What I'm looking at is, what can we do to pivot into the Aggro role, when we need to against Big Mana or Combo.
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UW Spirits
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it may be the case that trying to protect jace just for a few brainstorms isnt worth it. or that brainstorming itself, which amounts to a single card a turn, isnt good enough because the cards we play arent individually impactful enough. maybe we are better served just generating a blocker with gideon or exiling with nahiri than brainstorming and seeing cards that dont line up with what our opponent has on the board.
the most glaring difference is just the raw card advantage, which jeskai has always had an issue with. running multiple sphinx's rev isnt wise, and AV has proven to be a dud.
basically if jace isnt powerful/impactful enough to run on its own merit, and we cant reliably protect it; then maybe it should be a 1-of or not run at all.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm more curious if anyone has done any testing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor to know if it's really making a difference. The folks in the Esper control thread are working towards something but they also seem befuddled by Jace and Search for Azcanta. I can somewhat understand Search not being as amazing in Esper as it is in Jeskai, but some of them outright don't like the card, which I find strange.
it definitely isnt close to the same level as bbe with jund. where you can play a few games and immediately notice a difference.
im going to stay the course for the time being. both because i cant test in a manner to get meaningful results, and because i bought these jaces so im gonna damn well play with them for more than a month and a half.
ill keep an open mind though.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)IMO, keeping the board clear is a better proposition in general though. With the advent of jace, most blue decks are dropping a lot of their top end, and lowering their curve. Essentially tapping out every turn to activate azcanta is not great, given that we need to be spending a lot of mana to interact with our opponent (even if we aren't playing jace).
Of course, part of the problem with jace is that he's better with board wipes, and not spot removal (since you need the board just about totally cleared to drop him) which makes him less appealing in lightning bolt decks.
In modern, I think it will become pretty clear soon that the best jace decks are the ones with a proactive element (blue moon, bug midrangey things, bant coco, etc) and not hard control.
Does that mean that the hard control decks shouldn't play jace? Maybe, maybe not. I think the whole "is jace really worth it?" is a fair question to ask, but the power of the card is such that it feels difficult to argue that building the deck around jace isn't the best course of action.
on top of this modern is a format that is creature laden, and thus anything that can push through or punish a sweeper is at a premium. then there are the cases where spot removal is relevant to stop various combos.
the only time i can recall sweeper heavy control being successful was during eldrazi winter when UW ran 4+ with a sat of both snaps and jace VP.
while there is still the possibility of a truly good jace deck showing up, that window is rapidly closing and the argument that people arent building decks correctly looks feeble in the face of results saying otherwise. so far the better performing jace decks have been control oriented if you include blue moon with combo finishes.
it doesnt have to be all or nothing though. jeskai has been treating jace as a value piece, which i still think is correct. jeskai nahiri proved that defending a 4 cmc walker isnt easy. however this doesnt mean there arent smaller changes that can be made to improve jaces effectiveness without deviating from the elements that make jeskai good. maybe having stronger 3 mana plays like anger of the gods, timely reinforcements, or gideon3 is the way to go.
it would take a lot to convince me that at least 1 jace doesnt warrant inclusion in the 75. besides being an allstar in certain matchups, it is the best wincon we could hope for that circumvents the combat step.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)As soon as your opponent recognizes that you could be on blue moon, they have to handicap themselves by finding basics. They have to make sure they aren't giving up too much to your moons, to your remands, etc.
Its like twin, where what you're not doing makes what you are doing that much better.
So, let's talk about it: what are the problems with it right now? What's holding us back from being the #1 deck?
Thats literally it to me.
We have so many answers in our colours, and if our answers line up to the threats? Its a stomping, and we are the boot.
A reactive deck (look at the drop in Jund in the last few weeks) is not going to be king for long. Playing fair in modern, is 'hard mode'.
Spirits
well i dunno about being #1. modern just isnt that type of format.
right now i think people are still confused about where jace fits into the equation. especially since it forces us to ask ourselves if the big jeskai list we have been running for the last few months, with a few card changes here and there, is really the best configuration.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)1. Hollow One.
2. Humans.
3. Burn.
4. Storm.
While not being dead to Eldrazi/Tron? I think thats where we want to be.
Jace is a perfectly fine engine card. Brainstorm is more than '1 card' its 'see 4 cards, and if you have 5 cards in hand, keep the best 3'. I mean at worst, you draw jace with no hand, play him, brainstorm, and keep the best one.
Anyway, building to beat those 4 decks, seems to be where we want to be. If we can handle Jund at the same time, or Mardu, thats as solid a deck as I can hope for, while playing fair.
Damping Sphere is 100% going in my side though, I know that much.
Spirits
when i think people are misplaying jace its the opposite of what you describe. they start fatesealing too often or early.
im interested to see how you break down how to play jace, since its entirely contextual.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)1. Do I cast Jace and lose? Dont cast him.
2. Can I protect him at 3 Loyalty? Cast and brainstorm.
3. Can I protect him at 5 Loyalty? Cast and fateseal.
3a. Do I need to draw into an answer? Fateseal me.
3b. Do I need to prevent them drawing or gain knowledge? Fateseal them.
4. Do I need Answers or do I have them?
4a. I need answers, brainstorm.
4b. I have them, and opponent is in top deck? fateseal.
4c. I have them, and opponent is not in top deck and is not applying pressure? This is where you look at the lines available and is where teh depth comes in.
Spirits
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-jeskai-control-46499#paper
Maindeck dire fleet daredevil
Seems like it could be a thing i saw another list that ran 2 maindeck and went 5-0 in a modern mtgo league
I feel it may be pretty good if you target a lingering souls, thoughtseize or something of that sort from spell heavy decks like jund/abzan
Edit: heres the 5-0 list
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019132#paper
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
im not sure direfleet can ever be a reliable main deck card unless you have a very good idea of the decks you are playing against. the floor on the card is low, but has massive blowout potential in fair matchups that are spell heavy.
having it as a spicy 1-of, especially paired with resto seems fine. first strike is relevant as well being able to win in combat with burn spells.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
Not sure if that card is very good. I'd rather use Stifle
Did you mean something else? Stifle, is not Modern Legal.
The plus (again I have not tried it) is this is a relevant body, with Flash and Flying like Clique, while also potentially stopping something bad (Storm triggers, World Breakers, etc) putting a card in the yard for Logic Knot, while also drawing into something new.
What I'm looking at is, what can we do to pivot into the Aggro role, when we need to against Big Mana or Combo.
Spirits