Also, couldn't Jeskai fit Spreading Seas somewhere? It's great against Tron--one of our worst matchups-- and card draw is something I believe we need more of. Could be just a sideboard card if anything.
Is UW control greedy? Because that list has the exact same curve that most of UW lists I've seen. Except it doesn't have serum visions and instead has more removal spells because of the red.
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm genuinely asking because I dont have enough knowledge and experience to know these nuances.
Is UW control greedy? Because that list has the exact same curve that most of UW lists I've seen. Except it doesn't have serum visions and instead has more removal spells because of the red.
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm genuinely asking because I dont have enough knowledge and experience to know these nuances.
well there are a couple noteworthy differences between the jeskai list we are talking about and a typical UW list. UW control runs about 8 4-cmc spells, and 25 lands with 4 colonnades/4 fields. so that is the same, but they also:
-run 4 serum visions (you pointed this out); which smooths their draws
-fewer snapcaster mages
-fewer logic knots
-3 cryptics (with some combination of verdicts, wrath of god, and jace)
-more tappout 3 cmc plays like gideon3 or d-sphere
most importantly though they have better mana, and less strict colored mana requirements. so the jeskai list has no card selection and wants to cast spells that cost: R/W/U -> XU/UU/RW -> XUR -> XWWU/XXUU/XUUU going up the curve. so there will be games where not only will you not be able to cast your cheaper spells in a timely fashion (or at all), but also have multiple jaces or cryptics jammed up in your hand.
i think playing a jeskai list like the one we are talking about is fine, but is ultimately a calculated risk. i personally think UW lists are also greedy in the sense that they are prone to having some of the same issues since they bank on spreading seas mattering and their tappout plays catching them back up. with the conundrum being that they cant give up the seas + field package because that is one of the strengths of playing UW in the first place.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It may be a card or two off, but that's pretty much it. Here's my sideboard guide for it- Humans
+2 Runed Halo
+1 Celestial Purge
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Engineered Explosives
-3 Path to Exile
-3 Electrolyze
-1 Supreme Verdict
Jeskai Control
+2 Dispel
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
+1 Disdainful Stroke
-3 Path to Exile
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Supreme Verdict
UW Control
+2 Dispel
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
+1 Disdainful Stroke
-3 Path to Exile
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Supreme Verdict
If anyone has any questions about why I sideboard this way/improvements I could make, please let me know.
I've been using basically this list with just a slightly different sideboard, but if I may make some comments about the sideboarding guide? I've been doing a ton of playtesting and i'd like to share some observations.
Humans
+2 Halo
-1 Cryptic
Cryptic is the best spell you can have against Humans, outside of a board sweeper, i'd hate to sideboard it out. Humans has basically no spells and cryptic buys you time and can bounce meddling mage that is keeping you from casting your sweeper or removal that you need. Once the mage comes back down they have to choose the sweeper again and basically cannot attack with the mage else they can get a flashed in block from snapcaster and pretty much 2 for 1 blown out if not careful. I agree with the other sideboarding, but I play with 1 wrath of god in the sideboard for meddling mages/thruns of the world so I rarely use Halo in this matchup.
Jund
1 EE
I don't run EE at all, and Jund seems like a perfect candidate to get 2 for 1'd with K Command. I also am not the biggest fan of getting rid of all of our burn against jund, they often get themselves very low in between confidant/shocklands that i've won plenty of games from topdecking burn or snapcaster + burn. It also gives us a clean answer for Lilly. They play lilly, we play bolt snap bolt, or just snap a bolt from the GY and suddenly the lilly is just a single +1 and then dead. I may rethink putting EE into the sideboard, because I do think it's a great card for the matchup, but jund also goes a little wider with BBE, and I don't like tapping down for 3 and having to keep 2 mana up the next turn to activate. I'd rather play another sweeper, tbh.
The rest of the sideboards are pretty spot on, but i'm not a huge fan of cutting down the burn so heavily in most matches. Part of what makes Jeskai so powerful is the ability to turn on a time a bit and start going for the dome. Against other control, I don't try to out control them I try to get a little more aggressive with answer backup to force them into playing cards at our threats. Once they over-commit, it's easy to land a Gideon/Jace/Elspeth and just end the game. Against UW control, I tend to cut almost none of the path to exiles, as the deck relies on only a handful of threats to win the game that cannot be bolted (gideon/colonnade). I almost would rather cut a single serum visions or electrolyze instead.
I've been using basically this list with just a slightly different sideboard, but if I may make some comments about the sideboarding guide? I've been doing a ton of playtesting and i'd like to share some observations.
Humans
+2 Halo
-1 Cryptic
Cryptic is the best spell you can have against Humans, outside of a board sweeper, i'd hate to sideboard it out. Humans has basically no spells and cryptic buys you time and can bounce meddling mage that is keeping you from casting your sweeper or removal that you need. Once the mage comes back down they have to choose the sweeper again and basically cannot attack with the mage else they can get a flashed in block from snapcaster and pretty much 2 for 1 blown out if not careful. I agree with the other sideboarding, but I play with 1 wrath of god in the sideboard for meddling mages/thruns of the world so I rarely use Halo in this matchup.
Jund
1 EE
I don't run EE at all, and Jund seems like a perfect candidate to get 2 for 1'd with K Command. I also am not the biggest fan of getting rid of all of our burn against jund, they often get themselves very low in between confidant/shocklands that i've won plenty of games from topdecking burn or snapcaster + burn. It also gives us a clean answer for Lilly. They play lilly, we play bolt snap bolt, or just snap a bolt from the GY and suddenly the lilly is just a single +1 and then dead. I may rethink putting EE into the sideboard, because I do think it's a great card for the matchup, but jund also goes a little wider with BBE, and I don't like tapping down for 3 and having to keep 2 mana up the next turn to activate. I'd rather play another sweeper, tbh.
The rest of the sideboards are pretty spot on, but i'm not a huge fan of cutting down the burn so heavily in most matches. Part of what makes Jeskai so powerful is the ability to turn on a time a bit and start going for the dome. Against other control, I don't try to out control them I try to get a little more aggressive with answer backup to force them into playing cards at our threats. Once they over-commit, it's easy to land a Gideon/Jace/Elspeth and just end the game. Against UW control, I tend to cut almost none of the path to exiles, as the deck relies on only a handful of threats to win the game that cannot be bolted (gideon/colonnade). I almost would rather cut a single serum visions or electrolyze instead.
the thing with cryptic is, given you can cast it, its our best spell against every deck. the point is that humans is a fast aggro deck that plays heavily to the board while also laughing at counter magic. you bring in any remotely feasible cheap interaction to keep your hands up in the early game. with their various forms of disruption, notably thalia, tap + draw or tap + bounce plays look really anemic in the face of vials letting them play back at instant speed and abuse their numerous ETB creature effects. the most reliable course of action is just machine gunning down their board, and cleaning up the rest with sweepers.
as for burn, i agree that it is an undersold strength of jeskai. turning the corner quickly, or stealing games you had no right to be winning happens quite frequently. the issue is that you have to cut something when you sideboard. burn is still good enough to leave some amount in the deck for the reasons you stated. electrolyze makes the cut above the others because it both makes your remaining burn spells better by being able to double up and not go down on cards, while also being one of the few ways we can get a clean 2-for-1 and keep up with cards like BBE before we get an azcanta or jace online.
the burnout plan is an out that other control decks arent afforded, but it doesnt change the fact that you still want to play the control game.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Keep in mind your curve when sideboarding too; you shouldnt just side out cmc2 counterspells for cmc4 wraths. On top of that, in general you want your curve to be lower vs aggro decks.
hes been playing a fairly stock list, and the video above as well as one from about a week ago show him piloting the deck through multiple MTGO comp leagues. definitely recommend it for anyone wanting to see the deck in action, since Mclaren is a veteran of the archetype.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hey guys, so I thoroughly enjoy playing control. However, one of the things I hate is playing a super long game, to only loose cause we run out of gas and things like that. So straight to the point, would it viable to the run the Resto-Kiki Combo in Jeskai?
Hey guys, so I thoroughly enjoy playing control. However, one of the things I hate is playing a super long game, to only loose cause we run out of gas and things like that. So straight to the point, would it viable to the run the Resto-Kiki Combo in Jeskai?
That's why we have Search for Azcanta and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, so we keep drawing. The deck doesn't run out of gas, but it does go to time a lot if you don't play fairly quickly, which is why you need to practice a lot and call judges if your opponent is stalling.
I've seen Pia and Kiran Nalaar in a lot of sideboards. Is this still viable? I'd rather have something in that spot that deals with burn since we are sort of lacking that, and our matchup is close enough to 50/50. What is Pia and Kiran brought in for? Jund, Control, Mardu Pyro, and Affinity (and possibly a Blue Moon type of deck)? Seems like we cover Jund and Control quite well, and Affinity is less popular every week (especially in my local meta). Since burn is rising, I'm thinking about using Timely Reinforcements or Blessed Alliance instead. What do you think?
I've been playing the list from a few pages earlier in this thread with 4 of: geist, bolt, helix, cryptic, snapcaster, path, serum and 2 of: search, snare, logic knot, electrolyze, then a usual land package. It does well against "fair" decks but I have problems with jund (if they land lili they win), tron, and affinity. I find the slower strategies to be too durdly in the current format which is really proactive (even though I prefer slower strategies myself). Any changes I could make given this information?
I've been playing the list from a few pages earlier in this thread with 4 of: geist, bolt, helix, cryptic, snapcaster, path, serum and 2 of: search, snare, logic knot, electrolyze, then a usual land package. It does well against "fair" decks but I have problems with jund (if they land lili they win), tron, and affinity. I find the slower strategies to be too durdly in the current format which is really proactive (even though I prefer slower strategies myself). Any changes I could make given this information?
I used to run the Geist/Queller version, and honestly that deck is no good anymore. I'd rather go with a much more controlly Jeskai build because most of the time Geist does nothing in certain matchups, namely Jund. I'd find myself wanting to side it out after game 1 which is totally counterproductive toward our strategy. There's just better tempo decks out there, and IMHO Jeskai works as a durdly control deck better than anything at the current momemnt.
I've been playing the list from a few pages earlier in this thread with 4 of: geist, bolt, helix, cryptic, snapcaster, path, serum and 2 of: search, snare, logic knot, electrolyze, then a usual land package. It does well against "fair" decks but I have problems with jund (if they land lili they win), tron, and affinity. I find the slower strategies to be too durdly in the current format which is really proactive (even though I prefer slower strategies myself). Any changes I could make given this information?
I used to run the Geist/Queller version, and honestly that deck is no good anymore. I'd rather go with a much more controlly Jeskai build because most of the time Geist does nothing in certain matchups, namely Jund. I'd find myself wanting to side it out after game 1 which is totally counterproductive toward our strategy. There's just better tempo decks out there, and IMHO Jeskai works as a durdly control deck better than anything at the current momemnt.
Can you recommend a list? I tried one with 3 Jace, 2 gideons (1 ally 1 jura) and 1 clique, and I did very poorly with it - never had enough ways to keep up with the threats the opponents were presenting.
Can you recommend a list? I tried one with 3 Jace, 2 gideons (1 ally 1 jura) and 1 clique, and I did very poorly with it - never had enough ways to keep up with the threats the opponents were presenting.
Hey guys, so I thoroughly enjoy playing control. However, one of the things I hate is playing a super long game, to only loose cause we run out of gas and things like that. So straight to the point, would it viable to the run the Resto-Kiki Combo in Jeskai?
i havent seen a resto-kiki list in a while, not sure of all the reasons - but i think its still competitive. it would take a bit of tuning to get the numbers right, but jace i exceptional at digging for pieces you need. there is also the through the breach combo as well.
straight UR might just be the better place to be if you want to play the control/combo game.
jeskai copycat is also still a competitive deck. check out this list.
Hey guys, so I thoroughly enjoy playing control. However, one of the things I hate is playing a super long game, to only loose cause we run out of gas and things like that. So straight to the point, would it viable to the run the Resto-Kiki Combo in Jeskai?
Yes, there was a Resto-Kiki deck that won the Winnipeg 1.5k tournament (76 players). It was before the unbans. Here is the list:
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm genuinely asking because I dont have enough knowledge and experience to know these nuances.
well there are a couple noteworthy differences between the jeskai list we are talking about and a typical UW list. UW control runs about 8 4-cmc spells, and 25 lands with 4 colonnades/4 fields. so that is the same, but they also:
-run 4 serum visions (you pointed this out); which smooths their draws
-fewer snapcaster mages
-fewer logic knots
-3 cryptics (with some combination of verdicts, wrath of god, and jace)
-more tappout 3 cmc plays like gideon3 or d-sphere
most importantly though they have better mana, and less strict colored mana requirements. so the jeskai list has no card selection and wants to cast spells that cost: R/W/U -> XU/UU/RW -> XUR -> XWWU/XXUU/XUUU going up the curve. so there will be games where not only will you not be able to cast your cheaper spells in a timely fashion (or at all), but also have multiple jaces or cryptics jammed up in your hand.
i think playing a jeskai list like the one we are talking about is fine, but is ultimately a calculated risk. i personally think UW lists are also greedy in the sense that they are prone to having some of the same issues since they bank on spreading seas mattering and their tappout plays catching them back up. with the conundrum being that they cant give up the seas + field package because that is one of the strengths of playing UW in the first place.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I've been using basically this list with just a slightly different sideboard, but if I may make some comments about the sideboarding guide? I've been doing a ton of playtesting and i'd like to share some observations.
Humans
+2 Halo
-1 Cryptic
Cryptic is the best spell you can have against Humans, outside of a board sweeper, i'd hate to sideboard it out. Humans has basically no spells and cryptic buys you time and can bounce meddling mage that is keeping you from casting your sweeper or removal that you need. Once the mage comes back down they have to choose the sweeper again and basically cannot attack with the mage else they can get a flashed in block from snapcaster and pretty much 2 for 1 blown out if not careful. I agree with the other sideboarding, but I play with 1 wrath of god in the sideboard for meddling mages/thruns of the world so I rarely use Halo in this matchup.
Jund
1 EE
I don't run EE at all, and Jund seems like a perfect candidate to get 2 for 1'd with K Command. I also am not the biggest fan of getting rid of all of our burn against jund, they often get themselves very low in between confidant/shocklands that i've won plenty of games from topdecking burn or snapcaster + burn. It also gives us a clean answer for Lilly. They play lilly, we play bolt snap bolt, or just snap a bolt from the GY and suddenly the lilly is just a single +1 and then dead. I may rethink putting EE into the sideboard, because I do think it's a great card for the matchup, but jund also goes a little wider with BBE, and I don't like tapping down for 3 and having to keep 2 mana up the next turn to activate. I'd rather play another sweeper, tbh.
The rest of the sideboards are pretty spot on, but i'm not a huge fan of cutting down the burn so heavily in most matches. Part of what makes Jeskai so powerful is the ability to turn on a time a bit and start going for the dome. Against other control, I don't try to out control them I try to get a little more aggressive with answer backup to force them into playing cards at our threats. Once they over-commit, it's easy to land a Gideon/Jace/Elspeth and just end the game. Against UW control, I tend to cut almost none of the path to exiles, as the deck relies on only a handful of threats to win the game that cannot be bolted (gideon/colonnade). I almost would rather cut a single serum visions or electrolyze instead.
the thing with cryptic is, given you can cast it, its our best spell against every deck. the point is that humans is a fast aggro deck that plays heavily to the board while also laughing at counter magic. you bring in any remotely feasible cheap interaction to keep your hands up in the early game. with their various forms of disruption, notably thalia, tap + draw or tap + bounce plays look really anemic in the face of vials letting them play back at instant speed and abuse their numerous ETB creature effects. the most reliable course of action is just machine gunning down their board, and cleaning up the rest with sweepers.
as for burn, i agree that it is an undersold strength of jeskai. turning the corner quickly, or stealing games you had no right to be winning happens quite frequently. the issue is that you have to cut something when you sideboard. burn is still good enough to leave some amount in the deck for the reasons you stated. electrolyze makes the cut above the others because it both makes your remaining burn spells better by being able to double up and not go down on cards, while also being one of the few ways we can get a clean 2-for-1 and keep up with cards like BBE before we get an azcanta or jace online.
the burnout plan is an out that other control decks arent afforded, but it doesnt change the fact that you still want to play the control game.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW_jxRHl-KU
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
yeah you can also find his videos at:
https://www.twitch.tv/shaunmclaren
hes been playing a fairly stock list, and the video above as well as one from about a week ago show him piloting the deck through multiple MTGO comp leagues. definitely recommend it for anyone wanting to see the deck in action, since Mclaren is a veteran of the archetype.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)That's why we have Search for Azcanta and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, so we keep drawing. The deck doesn't run out of gas, but it does go to time a lot if you don't play fairly quickly, which is why you need to practice a lot and call judges if your opponent is stalling.
I used to run the Geist/Queller version, and honestly that deck is no good anymore. I'd rather go with a much more controlly Jeskai build because most of the time Geist does nothing in certain matchups, namely Jund. I'd find myself wanting to side it out after game 1 which is totally counterproductive toward our strategy. There's just better tempo decks out there, and IMHO Jeskai works as a durdly control deck better than anything at the current momemnt.
Can you recommend a list? I tried one with 3 Jace, 2 gideons (1 ally 1 jura) and 1 clique, and I did very poorly with it - never had enough ways to keep up with the threats the opponents were presenting.
Here's the list I've been doing well with in my locals, and going to bring it to the next SCG open:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019892#paper
i havent seen a resto-kiki list in a while, not sure of all the reasons - but i think its still competitive. it would take a bit of tuning to get the numbers right, but jace i exceptional at digging for pieces you need. there is also the through the breach combo as well.
straight UR might just be the better place to be if you want to play the control/combo game.
jeskai copycat is also still a competitive deck. check out this list.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1012600#paper
this janh fellow has posted a good number of 5-0 finishes in mtgo comp leagues in the past month or so.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Yes, there was a Resto-Kiki deck that won the Winnipeg 1.5k tournament (76 players). It was before the unbans. Here is the list:
4 Opt
2 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
Creatures (12)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Celestial Colonade
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Celestial Purge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Dispel
2 Disdainful Stroke
I've tried it once, and I feel like it needs a 24th land, though that may be more bad luck than anything. I went 0-2-drop with that list.
Most Kiki decks I've seen pop up on MTGGoldfish were of the Blue Moon variety.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)