Most lists I've seen are running spreading seas specifically to deal with man lands. They seem to do the trick, and the cycle is relevant.
I'm using double seas in my sb as well, but it's only playable on the play against bgx, on the draw it's too slow.
I dunno. I'd probably keep Spreading Seas on the draw against BGx. They have plenty of lands that come into play tapped, not to mention their mana is stretched in such a manner that they have to jump through some hoops to get double black on turn 3 for Liliana. If you can disrupt that they you can really throw a wrench into their plans.
@Bearscape
I personally switched to Molten Rain because I haven't been facing as much Tron or Valakut decks, so at some point the versatility of Molten Rain outpaces any gains in win-percentages that Crumble might offer.
Spreading Seas is probably the easiest hedge since it is 'free' and is pretty cheap.
I think having another 4 CMC sweeper instead of the Anger in your SB might give you some more game against Abzan.
Also, while it is pretty narrow, Rest in Peace is pretty good against Abzan. Shuts off Voice of Resurgence death trigger, stops the back half of lingering souls, shrinks goyf, and leave Scooze with no food.
Also I don't think you would lose much equity by switching out the SB Clique for something else.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm not really worried about Jund as much as Abzan; those decks are tuned to beat Jund and Jeskai by just being mostly bolt-proof. Something that came up often was that I had to tap out for a Wrath effect to deal with tokens giving them an opportunity to swing in with a manland for free; having a way to deal with manlands at my leisure instead of on theirs is something I think would be very valuable. Molten Rain is obviously better at that than Crumble but is it worth losing percentage against tron? Crumble is clunky and expensive against Abzan but it does get the job done. On the other hand tron has been going down so much since the banning of Eye of Ugin, setting them back a single turn to resolve nahiri sounds doable (but not great)
Basically the question is whether overall, crumble is better than molten rain win-percentage wise.
Either way, you're still tapping down on your turn to deal with their stuff. Seems like you would still be working on their game plan. Have you considered employing some removal tech from UW control?
Is spell queller playable? Against decks with bolt or removal in general, I don't think so. Against everything else, it seems ok. I played against a straight UWR control list at a GPT this weekend running queller and I think it just works like a worse Clique. I could see running it instead of mana leak though
Is spell queller playable? Against decks with bolt or removal in general, I don't think so. Against everything else, it seems ok. I played against a straight UWR control list at a GPT this weekend running queller and I think it just works like a worse Clique. I could see running it instead of mana leak though
It's very playable in general, but I think it's far better suited to a flash Jeskai style than anything involving Nahiri, the Harbinger.
and this one
missing Nahiri but we have 4 isocrons
...
Anyone else playing the "newes" Shaun MC List? (two cliques 3 helix 2 AV 2 Cryptic)
I like the list a lot with the amount of burns spells and cliques it gives you a lot of game vs combo / control / tron.
The Ingram-Style of lists allways felt kinda "allinish" on the nahiri plan and if you cant protect her you missing the required umpf to kill your opponant.
Only thing I changed so far is switching out one mesa for a lighthouse and maybe a remand for logic knot.
Sideboard is all one offs which I dont like very much.
That first list seems just a blue moon strategy with a minor splash for Nahiri. I see those crop up from time to time. It may or may not be an improvement on just a traditional blue moon list. The Nahiri combo is definitely a cleaner win-con over things like Batterskull and Vedalken Shackles.
As for Isochron Sceptor...well I haven't played with the card to be honest so I have no idea.
I think there are generally two trains of thought when approaching Jeskai Nahiri:
-I want to take a traditional Jeskai Control list and incorporate the Nahiri combo. This aligns with what Shaun MC is doing. He is known for playing URW control variants in the past, and I think he likes having those traditional aspects along side new technology.
-I want to start with the Nahiri Combo and build a shell around it with powerful URW cards. This is moreso what Gerry Thompson and Pete Ingram did. I think the feeling of being "allin" comes from this.
I am probably more in the first camp than the second, but I understand the merits of building a deck to focus on a single strategy.
As Bearscape mentioned in his tournament report. Having too many Cliques can backfire if you get bad pairings. Clique is good and all, but if you are just basically playing it as a 3 CMC flash 3/1; then it is going to perform poorly.
I like running the 6-7 permission spells instead of 9-10 because I feel like you can get flooded on the effect, and since our options aren't exactly mana efficient this can leave you behind on the board. Without more sweepers to catch up you get overwhelmed trying to 1-for-1 while being pressured. At least this is what I feel happens if I draw too many remands/leaks/knots/whatever.
My personal experience has moved me away from 2 Cryptics in the main because of both mana constraints, and wanting more interaction for turns 1-3 since I have AV in the deck. I play 1 as a hedge and value card.
Shaun MC explains in one of his deck tech videos that he likes a 3rd Helix instead of something like Timely because it is more proactive. Which I can generally agree on. Timely can be very hit or miss.
Also he says that he has 2 AVs instead of 3 or 4 because having more card draw digs you closer to Emrakul (which is functionally a dead card). This I do not agree on. Statistically it draws you closer to Emrakul, but also draws you closer to any other single spell/card in the deck. AV is a card that drastically changes in power level depending on at what point in the game you draw it. Having it early makes the card significantly better, and one way to ensure that the card comes up early is to play more copies. I think if you are going to play AV at all you should be using 3-4 copies to have the highest chance of playing it on turns 1-2.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Anyone else playing the "newes" Shaun MC List? (two cliques 3 helix 2 AV 2 Cryptic)
I like the list a lot with the amount of burns spells and cliques it gives you a lot of game vs combo / control / tron.
The Ingram-Style of lists allways felt kinda "allinish" on the nahiri plan and if you cant protect her you missing the required umpf to kill your opponant.
Only thing I changed so far is switching out one mesa for a lighthouse and maybe a remand for logic knot.
Sideboard is all one offs which I dont like very much.
It's been ages since I've seen Isochron Scepter in play... 0_o.
I've begun to experiment with going back to a classic UWr control flash type archtype without Nahiri (similar to that list but more creature-heavy).
The brain in a jar combo is simply stronger then isochron and would fit way better into the classical nahiri shell, but overall I doubt including cards that everyone has hatecards in their sb makes the deck better. Hardly any archtype doesn't run artefakt removal.
Not quite. The way Brain in a Jar works is different than Isochron Scepter. Not to mention that the Isochron Scepter decks are a throwback to many years ago. As a mid- to late-game play, it can be backbreaking. Brain in a Jar is also good but in a different way. It allows for instant-speed sorcery cards, you can cast spells with greater than 2-CMC, and gives you an ability to scry and you can cast spells with it on the cheap. However, why would I need all that when I could have Lightning Helix on a Scepter against Bushwhacker Zoo? It really depends on what you're expecting.
Also, everyone has removal for a lot of things. As long as you get something from it, it's still a 1-for-1. Newsflash: The format is filled with 1-for-1 trades.
The brain in a jar combo is simply stronger then isochron and would fit way better into the classical nahiri shell, but overall I doubt including cards that everyone has hatecards in their sb makes the deck better. Hardly any archtype doesn't run artefakt removal.
Not quite. The way Brain in a Jar works is different than Isochron Scepter. Not to mention that the Isochron Scepter decks are a throwback to many years ago. As a mid- to late-game play, it can be backbreaking. Brain in a Jar is also good but in a different way. It allows for instant-speed sorcery cards, you can cast spells with greater than 2-CMC, and gives you an ability to scry and you can cast spells with it on the cheap. However, why would I need all that when I could have Lightning Helix on a Scepter against Bushwhacker Zoo? It really depends on what you're expecting.
Also, everyone has removal for a lot of things. As long as you get something from it, it's still a 1-for-1. Newsflash: The format is filled with 1-for-1 trades.
I never said that the combos were the same, but that if anyone is looking for such a combo brain is stronger. I don't know why you consider isochron being a 1for1, as it easily leads to 2for1s if you don't play it on turn 4+.
Brain simply requires less investment and has the potential to go for some decent combos e.g. beck/call. Neverless both cards are bad as long as affinity and tron stay t1.
Honestly due to the over-popular nature of affinity in Modern... artifact hate is everywhere.
As a result over-relying on artifacts is not something you want to do unless your affinity IMO.
I'm more surprised by the fact that more people are not experimenting with spell queller
It's been ages since I've seen Isochron Scepter in play... 0_o.
I've begun to experiment with going back to a classic UWr control flash type archtype without Nahiri (similar to that list but more creature-heavy).
That's what I've been playing for the last few weeks, and I've been having pretty good success. Spell Queller has made it bonkers. I haven't taken a version with Spell Queller to a live tournament yet, but online testing leads me to think I just need to do it.
I don't mean to come here and crap on this thread's deck, but the more I watched and played Nahiri Jeskai (prior to my flash variant), the more I noticed that it feels like we're just playing a really bad control deck. I know everyone can point to top8's everywhere and consistency some pros are having, but I can't help what I feel. The deck feels clunky. Like someone playing a bad Grixis Twin deck back in the day. In my search to find something less clunky, I started testing variations that include something akin to traditional Jeskai and UW control decks that are less focused on Nahiri, the Harbinger in the main deck. They're viable and play out to be a "grindier" deck, but I'm still trying to figure out numbers while testing additions to my Jund deck. (So much testing, so little time). I will say Shaun McLaren's list is probably the smoothest Nahiri Jeskai list I've ever played though. For now, I'm on a flash control variant with Spell Queller. That is where I've landed for a non-Nahiri list, but I'm not sure it's worth testing in a Nahiri Jeskai list. I think the Nahiri lists just need better answers.
It's been ages since I've seen Isochron Scepter in play... 0_o.
I've begun to experiment with going back to a classic UWr control flash type archtype without Nahiri (similar to that list but more creature-heavy).
That's what I've been playing for the last few weeks, and I've been having pretty good success. Spell Queller has made it bonkers. I haven't taken a version with Spell Queller to a live tournament yet, but online testing leads me to think I just need to do it.
I don't mean to come here and crap on this thread's deck, but the more I watched and played Nahiri Jeskai (prior to my flash variant), the more I noticed that it feels like we're just playing a really bad control deck. I know everyone can point to top8's everywhere and consistency some pros are having, but I can't help what I feel. The deck feels clunky. Like someone playing a bad Grixis Twin deck back in the day. In my search to find something less clunky, I started testing variations that include something akin to traditional Jeskai and UW control decks that are less focused on Nahiri, the Harbinger in the main deck. They're viable and play out to be a "grindier" deck, but I'm still trying to figure out numbers while testing additions to my Jund deck. (So much testing, so little time). I will say Shaun McLaren's list is probably the smoothest Nahiri Jeskai list I've ever played though. For now, I'm on a flash control variant with Spell Queller. That is where I've landed for a non-Nahiri list, but I'm not sure it's worth testing in a Nahiri Jeskai list. I think the Nahiri lists just need better answers.
Agreed. I frequent this topic because I used to play Nahiri control (prior to It's tier 1 status). Unfortunately when it was upgraded to tier 1 it became the only primer for UWr control.
A non-Nahiri page simply doesn't exist at the moment. Main reason I continue to lurk here for insight.
I've heard many people say Jeskai Nahiri is the best control deck in the format, and i've heard people say it's just a bad deck which is amazing the fact that wins anything.
Right now i'm playing it and on baby steps. I win a lot, but i have played control decks since forever because i'm very bad at Combat Phase lol. I just know how to manage resources in a tight situtation, and still, i learn something new everytime i play the deck because i found it very skill intensive and the biggest factor is When to drop Nahiri and start ticking?.
I'm leaning towards Jeskai Nahiri being a very good deck, however unexplored and just in the first phase of it's journey.
What do you guys think, and how's testing been going?
I've heard many people say Jeskai Nahiri is the best control deck in the format, and i've heard people say it's just a bad deck which is amazing the fact that wins anything.
Right now i'm playing it and on baby steps. I win a lot, but i have played control decks since forever because i'm very bad at Combat Phase lol. I just know how to manage resources in a tight situtation, and still, i learn something new everytime i play the deck because i found it very skill intensive and the biggest factor is When to drop Nahiri and start ticking?.
I'm leaning towards Jeskai Nahiri being a very good deck, however unexplored and just in the first phase of it's journey.
What do you guys think, and how's testing been going?
I think it's possible for a deck to be both "the best deck in the format" and "a bad deck".
Nahiri fills a similar role to that of Splinter Twin before it. It's a card with universal application and strength, giving the control deck a way to be proactive.
Reactive simply does not work well in Modern. Never has. Probably never will. The reason why Nahiri deck lists are "Bad" is simply because, unlike Twin, it is clunky.
You get zero benfit from drawing multiple Nahiris. If you draw an Emerkaul, it's also a dead card.
This tends to lead to a "clunkier" feel... which people label as "bad".
The brain in a jar combo is simply stronger then isochron and would fit way better into the classical nahiri shell, but overall I doubt including cards that everyone has hatecards in their sb makes the deck better. Hardly any archtype doesn't run artefakt removal.
Not quite. The way Brain in a Jar works is different than Isochron Scepter. Not to mention that the Isochron Scepter decks are a throwback to many years ago. As a mid- to late-game play, it can be backbreaking. Brain in a Jar is also good but in a different way. It allows for instant-speed sorcery cards, you can cast spells with greater than 2-CMC, and gives you an ability to scry and you can cast spells with it on the cheap. However, why would I need all that when I could have Lightning Helix on a Scepter against Bushwhacker Zoo? It really depends on what you're expecting.
Also, everyone has removal for a lot of things. As long as you get something from it, it's still a 1-for-1. Newsflash: The format is filled with 1-for-1 trades.
I never said that the combos were the same, but that if anyone is looking for such a combo brain is stronger. I don't know why you consider isochron being a 1for1, as it easily leads to 2for1s if you don't play it on turn 4+.
Brain simply requires less investment and has the potential to go for some decent combos e.g. beck/call. Neverless both cards are bad as long as affinity and tron stay t1.
Because playing it sooner than turn 4 is literally just rolling the dice and a bit silly if you're playing a control deck.
I played the old UWR control list for at approx. 3 years until updating for Jeskai Nahiri. I've loved this archetype (UWR control) since the first time I've tried it, but had mixed results. Most of my opponents acknowledged that it was a good deck and seemed fun. However they would usually complaint about the time that it could take to actually win.
My list with Nahiri is similar to the old versions and close to McLauren's. I love the deck and have been having good results. It's faster than before and Nahiri has been always useful beyond the combo. All the opponents respect her as soon as she hits the board, unless they have been able to lock me out of the game at that point. I don't feel that the combo pieces are clunkier that other cards that the deck had before, such as Revelation or Resto. Even a staple like path can feel clunky (against a combo deck for example), but I will never play with less than 4 main.
I'm not sure I can agree with the notion that Nahiri is just as clunky restoration angel or revelation
Both of these high impact cards allow you to cast them at instant speed, once it is clear that your opponent isn't playing anything you need to counter.
You can't do that with Nahiri. Additionally multiple angels are leagues better then multiple Nahiris.
I played the old UWR control list for at approx. 3 years until updating for Jeskai Nahiri. I've loved this archetype (UWR control) since the first time I've tried it, but had mixed results. Most of my opponents acknowledged that it was a good deck and seemed fun. However they would usually complain about the time that it could take to actually win.
My Nahiri list is similar to McLauren's, and I see it as a dedicated control deck with a combo win. I love the deck and have been having good results. It's faster than before and Nahiri has been always useful beyond the combo. All the opponents respect her as soon as she hits the board, unless they have been able to lock me out of the game at that point. I don't feel that the combo pieces are clunkier that other cards that the deck had before, such as Revelation or Resto. Even a staple like path can feel clunky (against a combo deck for example), but I will never play with less than 4 main.
On top of what axman said, playing dead cards (such as Path to Exile against most combo/control decks) is not always the same as playing awkward-to-cast cards. There are matches against faster decks post-sideboard where you just don't get the cards you need (or in a timely fashion) and you're stuck in a bad position with cards you can cast but may not be helpful. A better illustration would be the matches Gerry T played against Infect for SCGs premium "watch a pro play MTGO" series. The links are in this thread somewhere on the previous few pages. He won one match and lost the other IIRC, but there were quite a few positions that were just awkward at best.
Man why is the #1 asked question in the Jeskai Nahiri thread "I don't want to play Jeskai Nahiri shall I play this instead?"
Perhaps it is worth starting a thread for non-Nahiri, non-Geist Jeskai control, which could encompass "pure" control and "flash" builds not featuring Geist of Saint Traft, since there is already an established thread for the Geist variant of Jeskai...? I'm sure ktkenshinx would provide insight on how to go about this.
In the meantime, perhaps if there are benefits to slanting more "midrange" than, e.g., the SCG Dallas lists (-link 1-, -link 2-), we could discuss those in the context of the Jeskai Harbinger shell, rather than discussing the merits of Card X or Deck Y instead of Nahiri...
On a similar note i noticed that remand is almost allways the first counter i cut and was wonderimg if it would not be better to just replace them with a 4th leak and a 3rd snare or potentially a one of cryptic.
What do you guys think about the remand - leak split.
Funny you mention this. I've reluctantly decided to drop one Remand from the main (replaced with a Wrath of God) to end up with to 3 Mana Leak, 2 Remand, and 2 Spell Snare. I say "reluctantly" becaue it's just such a great card when it shines, and Remanding my own spells in control mirrors is beautiful, but the aggro match-ups just feel a bit too fast and aggressive to be Remanding their spells.
I suppose my thinking is that, against an unknown deck in the general meta, some number of Remands make sense because we are trying to dig to sweepers and a specific win condition (Nahiri). And Nahiri helps us dig through the deck, so Remand and Nahiri complement each other in this way, making it worthwhile to have (for example) a single copy each of Anger of the Gods and Timely Reinforcements in the main. But it seems like my plan is quite often to transform into a "harder" control deck against the very aggressive decks (Burn, Zoo, Elves, Merfolk, etc.) with 3 sweepers and 2 Timely Reinforcements.
... Though I still don't have a great sense of sideboarding with this deck. Is it normal to be swapping 4-6 cards? On paper, my plan is often to cut counters (Remand in particular, but others vs. Cavern of Souls) and Ancestral Vision vs. aggro, and cut sweepers vs. midrange/control where Timely / Path do a sufficient job, and bring in basically everything more relevant from the sideboard than what I've cut -- basically, transforming the deck from 50% board control and 50% stack control to 75/25 in the appropriate direction. Is this a normal way of approaching it, or am I way off base?
On the subject of Timely: I think I prefer the idea of more wraths (Anger of the Gods, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict) in the main over Timely, since there are aggressive strategies involving flying, trample, islandwalk, and just going really wide that Timely can struggle against, and wraths just deal with the threats. I like the idea a second in the side for when it is needed, since against the right matchups, it does a great job of both buying time and protecting Nahiri. I'm also hoping to try out a single Blessed Alliance if it arrives in time.
Imo the merits of Nahiri in Jeskai have been discussed enough (every few pages someone asks this question) and those still claiming it's a bad deck are delusional.
Oddly enough, on reddit at least, pretty much all of them fly the jeskai flag but would rather have no tiered jeskai deck than have one that isn't the traditional control list.
On the topic of timely in the main:
I really like the idea because it frees up a ton of slots.
i am currently tinkering with 2 clique and 2 timely main which allows me to drop all helixes from my 75 (timely should be more than enough vs burn and such) aswell as dropping geist from the sb opening a total of 4 sb slots for more silver bullets.
When making a theoretical side board guide i noticed that timely gets the boot a lot though (helix would also get the boot in many of those instances but not quite this drastic) pretty much vs anything that isnt burn or zoo type aggro, so i'm not sure its worth it.
On a similar note i noticed that remand is almost allways the first counter i cut and was wonderimg if it would not be better to just replace them with a 4th leak and a 3rd snare or potentially a one of cryptic.
What do you guys think about the remand - leak split.
I was going to type something more in-depth, but the bottom line is that it drives me crazy when people bury their heads in the sand when it comes to the issues inherent with most Jeskai Nahiri lists. The issues I see pros run into when they're streaming and testing or playing MOCS or what have you is odd. I'm not calling the deck outright bad, but clunky IS bad in a major tournament; or is this thread here for FNM warriors? Hearing one pro lament that they don't have enough relevant cards to board in for Ancestral Vision and Nahiri, the Harbinger is a red flag to me.
As for your question regarding Mana Leak or Remand, I'm firmly of the belief that this is largely a metagame call. Remand isn't always good but it cycles. That ability to get a card and delay something is pretty good (or save your own spell and draw a card). The problem usually comes when you can't even delay something worthwhile with it either because they recast it again or it's not even worth countering.
I dunno. I'd probably keep Spreading Seas on the draw against BGx. They have plenty of lands that come into play tapped, not to mention their mana is stretched in such a manner that they have to jump through some hoops to get double black on turn 3 for Liliana. If you can disrupt that they you can really throw a wrench into their plans.
@Bearscape
I personally switched to Molten Rain because I haven't been facing as much Tron or Valakut decks, so at some point the versatility of Molten Rain outpaces any gains in win-percentages that Crumble might offer.
Spreading Seas is probably the easiest hedge since it is 'free' and is pretty cheap.
I think having another 4 CMC sweeper instead of the Anger in your SB might give you some more game against Abzan.
Also, while it is pretty narrow, Rest in Peace is pretty good against Abzan. Shuts off Voice of Resurgence death trigger, stops the back half of lingering souls, shrinks goyf, and leave Scooze with no food.
Also I don't think you would lose much equity by switching out the SB Clique for something else.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Either way, you're still tapping down on your turn to deal with their stuff. Seems like you would still be working on their game plan. Have you considered employing some removal tech from UW control?
It's very playable in general, but I think it's far better suited to a flash Jeskai style than anything involving Nahiri, the Harbinger.
That first list seems just a blue moon strategy with a minor splash for Nahiri. I see those crop up from time to time. It may or may not be an improvement on just a traditional blue moon list. The Nahiri combo is definitely a cleaner win-con over things like Batterskull and Vedalken Shackles.
As for Isochron Sceptor...well I haven't played with the card to be honest so I have no idea.
I think there are generally two trains of thought when approaching Jeskai Nahiri:
-I want to take a traditional Jeskai Control list and incorporate the Nahiri combo. This aligns with what Shaun MC is doing. He is known for playing URW control variants in the past, and I think he likes having those traditional aspects along side new technology.
-I want to start with the Nahiri Combo and build a shell around it with powerful URW cards. This is moreso what Gerry Thompson and Pete Ingram did. I think the feeling of being "allin" comes from this.
I am probably more in the first camp than the second, but I understand the merits of building a deck to focus on a single strategy.
As Bearscape mentioned in his tournament report. Having too many Cliques can backfire if you get bad pairings. Clique is good and all, but if you are just basically playing it as a 3 CMC flash 3/1; then it is going to perform poorly.
I like running the 6-7 permission spells instead of 9-10 because I feel like you can get flooded on the effect, and since our options aren't exactly mana efficient this can leave you behind on the board. Without more sweepers to catch up you get overwhelmed trying to 1-for-1 while being pressured. At least this is what I feel happens if I draw too many remands/leaks/knots/whatever.
My personal experience has moved me away from 2 Cryptics in the main because of both mana constraints, and wanting more interaction for turns 1-3 since I have AV in the deck. I play 1 as a hedge and value card.
Shaun MC explains in one of his deck tech videos that he likes a 3rd Helix instead of something like Timely because it is more proactive. Which I can generally agree on. Timely can be very hit or miss.
Also he says that he has 2 AVs instead of 3 or 4 because having more card draw digs you closer to Emrakul (which is functionally a dead card). This I do not agree on. Statistically it draws you closer to Emrakul, but also draws you closer to any other single spell/card in the deck. AV is a card that drastically changes in power level depending on at what point in the game you draw it. Having it early makes the card significantly better, and one way to ensure that the card comes up early is to play more copies. I think if you are going to play AV at all you should be using 3-4 copies to have the highest chance of playing it on turns 1-2.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It's been ages since I've seen Isochron Scepter in play... 0_o.
I've begun to experiment with going back to a classic UWr control flash type archtype without Nahiri (similar to that list but more creature-heavy).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Not quite. The way Brain in a Jar works is different than Isochron Scepter. Not to mention that the Isochron Scepter decks are a throwback to many years ago. As a mid- to late-game play, it can be backbreaking. Brain in a Jar is also good but in a different way. It allows for instant-speed sorcery cards, you can cast spells with greater than 2-CMC, and gives you an ability to scry and you can cast spells with it on the cheap. However, why would I need all that when I could have Lightning Helix on a Scepter against Bushwhacker Zoo? It really depends on what you're expecting.
Also, everyone has removal for a lot of things. As long as you get something from it, it's still a 1-for-1. Newsflash: The format is filled with 1-for-1 trades.
Honestly due to the over-popular nature of affinity in Modern... artifact hate is everywhere.
As a result over-relying on artifacts is not something you want to do unless your affinity IMO.
I'm more surprised by the fact that more people are not experimenting with spell queller
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
That's what I've been playing for the last few weeks, and I've been having pretty good success. Spell Queller has made it bonkers. I haven't taken a version with Spell Queller to a live tournament yet, but online testing leads me to think I just need to do it.
I don't mean to come here and crap on this thread's deck, but the more I watched and played Nahiri Jeskai (prior to my flash variant), the more I noticed that it feels like we're just playing a really bad control deck. I know everyone can point to top8's everywhere and consistency some pros are having, but I can't help what I feel. The deck feels clunky. Like someone playing a bad Grixis Twin deck back in the day. In my search to find something less clunky, I started testing variations that include something akin to traditional Jeskai and UW control decks that are less focused on Nahiri, the Harbinger in the main deck. They're viable and play out to be a "grindier" deck, but I'm still trying to figure out numbers while testing additions to my Jund deck. (So much testing, so little time). I will say Shaun McLaren's list is probably the smoothest Nahiri Jeskai list I've ever played though. For now, I'm on a flash control variant with Spell Queller. That is where I've landed for a non-Nahiri list, but I'm not sure it's worth testing in a Nahiri Jeskai list. I think the Nahiri lists just need better answers.
Agreed. I frequent this topic because I used to play Nahiri control (prior to It's tier 1 status). Unfortunately when it was upgraded to tier 1 it became the only primer for UWr control.
A non-Nahiri page simply doesn't exist at the moment. Main reason I continue to lurk here for insight.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Right now i'm playing it and on baby steps. I win a lot, but i have played control decks since forever because i'm very bad at Combat Phase lol. I just know how to manage resources in a tight situtation, and still, i learn something new everytime i play the deck because i found it very skill intensive and the biggest factor is When to drop Nahiri and start ticking?.
I'm leaning towards Jeskai Nahiri being a very good deck, however unexplored and just in the first phase of it's journey.
What do you guys think, and how's testing been going?
I think it's possible for a deck to be both "the best deck in the format" and "a bad deck".
Nahiri fills a similar role to that of Splinter Twin before it. It's a card with universal application and strength, giving the control deck a way to be proactive.
Reactive simply does not work well in Modern. Never has. Probably never will. The reason why Nahiri deck lists are "Bad" is simply because, unlike Twin, it is clunky.
You get zero benfit from drawing multiple Nahiris. If you draw an Emerkaul, it's also a dead card.
This tends to lead to a "clunkier" feel... which people label as "bad".
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Because playing it sooner than turn 4 is literally just rolling the dice and a bit silly if you're playing a control deck.
I'm not sure I can agree with the notion that Nahiri is just as clunky restoration angel or revelation
Both of these high impact cards allow you to cast them at instant speed, once it is clear that your opponent isn't playing anything you need to counter.
You can't do that with Nahiri. Additionally multiple angels are leagues better then multiple Nahiris.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
On top of what axman said, playing dead cards (such as Path to Exile against most combo/control decks) is not always the same as playing awkward-to-cast cards. There are matches against faster decks post-sideboard where you just don't get the cards you need (or in a timely fashion) and you're stuck in a bad position with cards you can cast but may not be helpful. A better illustration would be the matches Gerry T played against Infect for SCGs premium "watch a pro play MTGO" series. The links are in this thread somewhere on the previous few pages. He won one match and lost the other IIRC, but there were quite a few positions that were just awkward at best.
Perhaps it is worth starting a thread for non-Nahiri, non-Geist Jeskai control, which could encompass "pure" control and "flash" builds not featuring Geist of Saint Traft, since there is already an established thread for the Geist variant of Jeskai...? I'm sure ktkenshinx would provide insight on how to go about this.
In the meantime, perhaps if there are benefits to slanting more "midrange" than, e.g., the SCG Dallas lists (-link 1-, -link 2-), we could discuss those in the context of the Jeskai Harbinger shell, rather than discussing the merits of Card X or Deck Y instead of Nahiri...
Funny you mention this. I've reluctantly decided to drop one Remand from the main (replaced with a Wrath of God) to end up with to 3 Mana Leak, 2 Remand, and 2 Spell Snare. I say "reluctantly" becaue it's just such a great card when it shines, and Remanding my own spells in control mirrors is beautiful, but the aggro match-ups just feel a bit too fast and aggressive to be Remanding their spells.
I suppose my thinking is that, against an unknown deck in the general meta, some number of Remands make sense because we are trying to dig to sweepers and a specific win condition (Nahiri). And Nahiri helps us dig through the deck, so Remand and Nahiri complement each other in this way, making it worthwhile to have (for example) a single copy each of Anger of the Gods and Timely Reinforcements in the main. But it seems like my plan is quite often to transform into a "harder" control deck against the very aggressive decks (Burn, Zoo, Elves, Merfolk, etc.) with 3 sweepers and 2 Timely Reinforcements.
... Though I still don't have a great sense of sideboarding with this deck. Is it normal to be swapping 4-6 cards? On paper, my plan is often to cut counters (Remand in particular, but others vs. Cavern of Souls) and Ancestral Vision vs. aggro, and cut sweepers vs. midrange/control where Timely / Path do a sufficient job, and bring in basically everything more relevant from the sideboard than what I've cut -- basically, transforming the deck from 50% board control and 50% stack control to 75/25 in the appropriate direction. Is this a normal way of approaching it, or am I way off base?
On the subject of Timely: I think I prefer the idea of more wraths (Anger of the Gods, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict) in the main over Timely, since there are aggressive strategies involving flying, trample, islandwalk, and just going really wide that Timely can struggle against, and wraths just deal with the threats. I like the idea a second in the side for when it is needed, since against the right matchups, it does a great job of both buying time and protecting Nahiri. I'm also hoping to try out a single Blessed Alliance if it arrives in time.
I was going to type something more in-depth, but the bottom line is that it drives me crazy when people bury their heads in the sand when it comes to the issues inherent with most Jeskai Nahiri lists. The issues I see pros run into when they're streaming and testing or playing MOCS or what have you is odd. I'm not calling the deck outright bad, but clunky IS bad in a major tournament; or is this thread here for FNM warriors? Hearing one pro lament that they don't have enough relevant cards to board in for Ancestral Vision and Nahiri, the Harbinger is a red flag to me.
As for your question regarding Mana Leak or Remand, I'm firmly of the belief that this is largely a metagame call. Remand isn't always good but it cycles. That ability to get a card and delay something is pretty good (or save your own spell and draw a card). The problem usually comes when you can't even delay something worthwhile with it either because they recast it again or it's not even worth countering.
What's the context / source of that comment?