The problem to me, is any time you dont have AV, or Dominance, is either one 'acceptable' to you on its own? I've tried AV on and off countless times, and it has almost NEVER felt good enough to hold on to, and I would say its lack of presence in the format is basis alone for saying 'no, its not good enough on its own'.
So does the off chance of getting to cheat it out make up the difference? Maybe, but Modern is really fast, and GDS is a very common thing to me, the odds of holding onto both when you need it, seems slim.
The problem to me, is any time you dont have AV, or Dominance, is either one 'acceptable' to you on its own? ... the odds of holding onto both when you need it, seems slim.
This is exactly what the community (and myself) will need to test and nut out. But the potential is there, and the fact that they smooth each others floor when played together gives me hope.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
eh, i really have no clue. atm im categorizing the av + electro combo/package as 'meh' until i see the card in action. jumping through hoops to make mediocre cards good is always a dubious proposition.
i can respect those willing to test it though. im intrigued at the idea of non-av sorcery speed options and the electro package maybe boosting their playability a bit. for instance cards like oust, flame slash, or even baby jace seem much more appealing with flash.
you are right about the colored mana restrictions though. tbh i think your 3/3 colonnade field split is probably too greedy. considering electo can go to the face, a stronger burn package makes dropping a colonnade more palatable. maybe swap in a sulfur falls or spirebluff for another untapped red source.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
eh, i really have no clue. atm im categorizing the av + electro combo/package as 'meh' until i see the card in action. jumping through hoops to make mediocre cards good is always a dubious proposition.
i can respect those willing to test it though. im intrigued at the idea of non-av sorcery speed options and the electro package maybe boosting their playability a bit. for instance cards like oust, flame slash, or even baby jace seem much more appealing with flash.
you are right about the colored mana restrictions though. tbh i think your 3/3 colonnade field split is probably too greedy. considering electo can go to the face, a stronger burn package makes dropping a colonnade more palatable. maybe swap in a sulfur falls or spirebluff for another untapped red source.
Excellent observations, concessions to the mana base would be needed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Nassif was streaming a deck that goes all in on electrodominance/suspend plan and it was wildly inconsistent. It was sad seeing him get crushed by thalia. It seems really hard to get it to work.
Nassif was streaming a deck that goes all in on electrodominance/suspend plan and it was wildly inconsistent. It was sad seeing him get crushed by thalia. It seems really hard to get it to work.
Pretty sure that thhis was a UR As Foretold Deck that he streamed, not Jeskai Control.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Nassif was streaming a deck that goes all in on electrodominance/suspend plan and it was wildly inconsistent. It was sad seeing him get crushed by thalia. It seems really hard to get it to work.
Pretty sure that thhis was a UR As Foretold Deck that he streamed, not Jeskai Control.
It was, but it's a data point on testing electrodominance.
How do you guys manage the Tron matchup ? I have 3 Field of Ruin in the mainboard as well as 2 Negate, 1 Wear // Tear and 2 Stony Silence in the sideboard. I'm not sure how to sideboard in this matchup : do you think Vendilion Clique would be good ? How about Dispel also (I don't think it would do much). I guess it's all about speed, so I'm tempted to keep the burn spells to race them.
Also, how do you win against UB Mill ? It's a silly question, but this deck is kicking my ***. I'm conscious about when to fetch to avoid the Trap, but sometimes you got to do it because you have to get your colors right and can't avoid the Trap. It's a tougher matchup than what it seems.
Here's my sideboard if you guys want to comment or would suggest changes :
Tron crushes control. The one time that I did better than 50% vs tron was when I was playing UW with 4x spreading seas, 4x field of ruin, 1x ghost quarter and 2x gideon of the trials. You either suck up the loss to tron or play a different deck.
Against mill, people were playing one eldrazi in the sideboard.
Tron crushes control. The one time that I did better than 50% vs tron was when I was playing UW with 4x spreading seas, 4x field of ruin, 1x ghost quarter and 2x gideon of the trials. You either suck up the loss to tron or play a different deck.
Against mill, people were playing one eldrazi in the sideboard.
How do you guys manage the Tron matchup ? I have 3 Field of Ruin in the mainboard as well as 2 Negate, 1 Wear // Tear and 2 Stony Silence in the sideboard. I'm not sure how to sideboard in this matchup : do you think Vendilion Clique would be good ? How about Dispel also (I don't think it would do much). I guess it's all about speed, so I'm tempted to keep the burn spells to race them.
I can attest that Tron is a horrible matchup for Jeskai. In the 2018 MWP analysis I posted (https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/2019/01/12/2018-top-deck-performance-review/), I found Gx Tron to be heavily favored against Jeskai Control with an overall MWP of 28.7% and a 95% confidence interval on that MWP of 19.2%-38.2%. The sample size for that was 87 games at the GP and SCG Open levels. It's such a bad matchup that, as rick attests, I might not even try to waste slots at improving it too much. Just let it suck and lean on your better matchups.
Tron crushes control. The one time that I did better than 50% vs tron was when I was playing UW with 4x spreading seas, 4x field of ruin, 1x ghost quarter and 2x gideon of the trials. You either suck up the loss to tron or play a different deck.
Against mill, people were playing one eldrazi in the sideboard.
How do you guys manage the Tron matchup ? I have 3 Field of Ruin in the mainboard as well as 2 Negate, 1 Wear // Tear and 2 Stony Silence in the sideboard. I'm not sure how to sideboard in this matchup : do you think Vendilion Clique would be good ? How about Dispel also (I don't think it would do much). I guess it's all about speed, so I'm tempted to keep the burn spells to race them.
I can attest that Tron is a horrible matchup for Jeskai. In the 2018 MWP analysis I posted (https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/2019/01/12/2018-top-deck-performance-review/), I found Gx Tron to be heavily favored against Jeskai Control with an overall MWP of 28.7% and a 95% confidence interval on that MWP of 19.2%-38.2%. The sample size for that was 87 games at the GP and SCG Open levels. It's such a bad matchup that, as rick attests, I might not even try to waste slots at improving it too much. Just let it suck and lean on your better matchups.
Thanks ktkenshinx : that's a net matrix on the metrics web site. Thanks for a valuable input in there !
still not much going on with jeskai. regardless i figured i would post the 2 lists that top8 the recent modern scg classic (200ish players). both kazu negri and jonathan sukenik are known good/expert jeskai pilots.
I don't like no Serum Visions at all. Card selection is what the deck needs I think and raw card advantage from Jace, Azcanta and Hierogliphyc is additional.
I don't like no Serum Visions at all. Card selection is what the deck needs I think and raw card advantage from Jace, Azcanta and Hierogliphyc is additional.
..yeah, seems like Nikolich, Sukenik and Negri disagree. They have more reps with this deck than any other player on record/camera and I cannot help but give them credit for their choices. it`s not an argument by authority but rather seems to follow a judgement call correlated with a deeper understanding of how this deck performs optimally..
hieroglyphic is a more natural inclusion into jeskai than even UW. what is appealing about the card is its flexibility to work early, add more top end to the deck, and aligns with the set of advantages gained in jeskai - primarily a lot of cheap redundant spot removal (+countermagic) at instant speed backed up by snapcaster. sorta the same reason that teferi is better than jtms in jeskai.
serum visions is a powerful effect, the best dig for the cost, and i think still fine to run in small numbers. however playing the full set has always been a necessary evil because of the lack of alternatives. the benefits barely outweighed the downside of having your hand stretched thin with this sorcery speed effect forcing a tempo loss right next to spells better when you can hold up mana. in addition the effect on serum visions pushes you to use it in the early turns because delayed selection improves subsequent ones.
opt partially fit the bill, but the weak effect made it closer to a sidegrade to serum than anything else. its contextually better in UW because of how it interacts with terminus. even then UW builds have adopted some number of HI (also another instant speed draw effect).
selection is great, and i do wish jeskai had more of it, however prior to the printings in the last year an issue that historically plagued UWx control is not having ENOUGH (good) sources of raw card draw. any sort of card advantage was baked into getting 2-for-1's with snapcaster, electrolyze, and cryptics. however this could often lead you to a state where you ran dry on resources in hand, leaving you at parity with no way to pull ahead. azcanta and teferi were a huge boon to the deck because they let you gather more resources while not conflicting. hieroglyphic, while obviously not on the same power level, is similar. a 4 mana draw 2 isnt a great rate, but you can cycle it early if you need to, get to hold up snap+x/cryptic and end step it if there is an opening, and copies in the yard being snapped back in the lategame can futher put the game out of reach for the opponent.
after those considerations its just a matter of slots. serum is a great card, but if you want to include some HIs which i believe is some nonzero upgrade, then serum makes sense as the cut since jeskai operates on the sheer density of cheap action spells.
edit: noteworthy is the fringe benefit of being able to cycle HI through thalia, chalice, or countermagic.
The thing is that the deck doesn't need selection, not really. We play a combination of cards that through Search triggers or cycling/casting Heiro we can find the cards we need without playing weaker cantrips. The strength of Heiro is that its good to cycle early game, but it's not a *****ty rip in the lategame like Visions is. I think if you play with only Serums and then you play with only Illuminations, a clear winner emerges.
The thing is that the deck doesn't need selection, not really. We play a combination of cards that through Search triggers or cycling/casting Heiro we can find the cards we need without playing weaker cantrips. The strength of Heiro is that its good to cycle early game, but it's not a *****ty rip in the lategame like Visions is. I think if you play with only Serums and then you play with only Illuminations, a clear winner emerges.
While I generally like some number of Hieroglyphic Illumination, it's largely for its speed and flexibility (can be cycled early, more keepable opening hands, etc) instead of its card drawing "power." I say "power" because the fact that these are the cantrips we're debating about shows how bad Modern cantrips are. That said, I still like Serum Visions if I'm playing more silver bullets from my sideboard. The real problem I have with it is that it's a sorcery. They each have their uses though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So does the off chance of getting to cheat it out make up the difference? Maybe, but Modern is really fast, and GDS is a very common thing to me, the odds of holding onto both when you need it, seems slim.
Spirits
This is exactly what the community (and myself) will need to test and nut out. But the potential is there, and the fact that they smooth each others floor when played together gives me hope.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Spirits
The easiest like for like shaves for AV in current common lists would be the opt/illumination package.
I would also want to include some sorcery speed value to attach to Dominance without AV so I like a Detention Sphere somewhere, too.
This is the quick draft I came up with.
Jeskai Control (U/W/R): Electrodominance + Ancestral Vision
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants and Sorceries (27)
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
3 Electrodominance
3 Lightning Helix
2 Logic Knot
1 Negate
1 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
2 Settle the Wreckage
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Detention Sphere
Lands (25)
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Dispel
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
1 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stony Silence
Shared via TopDecked MTG
https://www.topdecked.me/decks/38674be6-f9e9-439d-9399-5d40a3564a42
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
i can respect those willing to test it though. im intrigued at the idea of non-av sorcery speed options and the electro package maybe boosting their playability a bit. for instance cards like oust, flame slash, or even baby jace seem much more appealing with flash.
you are right about the colored mana restrictions though. tbh i think your 3/3 colonnade field split is probably too greedy. considering electo can go to the face, a stronger burn package makes dropping a colonnade more palatable. maybe swap in a sulfur falls or spirebluff for another untapped red source.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Excellent observations, concessions to the mana base would be needed.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Pretty sure that thhis was a UR As Foretold Deck that he streamed, not Jeskai Control.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
It was, but it's a data point on testing electrodominance.
Also, how do you win against UB Mill ? It's a silly question, but this deck is kicking my ***. I'm conscious about when to fetch to avoid the Trap, but sometimes you got to do it because you have to get your colors right and can't avoid the Trap. It's a tougher matchup than what it seems.
Here's my sideboard if you guys want to comment or would suggest changes :
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
Cheers !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Against mill, people were playing one eldrazi in the sideboard.
I can attest that Tron is a horrible matchup for Jeskai. In the 2018 MWP analysis I posted (https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/2019/01/12/2018-top-deck-performance-review/), I found Gx Tron to be heavily favored against Jeskai Control with an overall MWP of 28.7% and a 95% confidence interval on that MWP of 19.2%-38.2%. The sample size for that was 87 games at the GP and SCG Open levels. It's such a bad matchup that, as rick attests, I might not even try to waste slots at improving it too much. Just let it suck and lean on your better matchups.
Thanks ktkenshinx : that's a net matrix on the metrics web site. Thanks for a valuable input in there !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Snare
Legendary Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
Legendary Enchantments
2 Search for Azcanta
Legendary Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
2 Runed Halo
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
1 Negate
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
Legendary Enchantments
2 Search for Azcanta
Legendary Planeswalkers
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2 Supreme Verdict
Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
2 Vendilion Clique
also for reference this is what Nikolich ran in the team event (11th place):
4 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
1 Detention Sphere
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Settle the Wreckage
Legendary Enchantments
2 Search for Azcanta
Legendary Planeswalkers
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Settle the Wreckage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
2 Vendilion Clique
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
serum visions is a powerful effect, the best dig for the cost, and i think still fine to run in small numbers. however playing the full set has always been a necessary evil because of the lack of alternatives. the benefits barely outweighed the downside of having your hand stretched thin with this sorcery speed effect forcing a tempo loss right next to spells better when you can hold up mana. in addition the effect on serum visions pushes you to use it in the early turns because delayed selection improves subsequent ones.
opt partially fit the bill, but the weak effect made it closer to a sidegrade to serum than anything else. its contextually better in UW because of how it interacts with terminus. even then UW builds have adopted some number of HI (also another instant speed draw effect).
selection is great, and i do wish jeskai had more of it, however prior to the printings in the last year an issue that historically plagued UWx control is not having ENOUGH (good) sources of raw card draw. any sort of card advantage was baked into getting 2-for-1's with snapcaster, electrolyze, and cryptics. however this could often lead you to a state where you ran dry on resources in hand, leaving you at parity with no way to pull ahead. azcanta and teferi were a huge boon to the deck because they let you gather more resources while not conflicting. hieroglyphic, while obviously not on the same power level, is similar. a 4 mana draw 2 isnt a great rate, but you can cycle it early if you need to, get to hold up snap+x/cryptic and end step it if there is an opening, and copies in the yard being snapped back in the lategame can futher put the game out of reach for the opponent.
after those considerations its just a matter of slots. serum is a great card, but if you want to include some HIs which i believe is some nonzero upgrade, then serum makes sense as the cut since jeskai operates on the sheer density of cheap action spells.
edit: noteworthy is the fringe benefit of being able to cycle HI through thalia, chalice, or countermagic.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UWR Control
BR Hollow One
While I generally like some number of Hieroglyphic Illumination, it's largely for its speed and flexibility (can be cycled early, more keepable opening hands, etc) instead of its card drawing "power." I say "power" because the fact that these are the cantrips we're debating about shows how bad Modern cantrips are. That said, I still like Serum Visions if I'm playing more silver bullets from my sideboard. The real problem I have with it is that it's a sorcery. They each have their uses though.