yeah jeskai and moon run about the same amount of artifact hate. moon runs 1-2 relics at most, while jeskai has more exile effects and sweepers. jeskai is better versus mardu (still not a great matchup), while moon is better against jund.
i like blue moon and look to try it out in the near future, but jeskai still has very clear advantages against aggression (more than double the removal and main deck sweepers). big mana is on a downswing.
both decks are good but not great options right now, calling one or the other objectively superior is a stretch. i would like to get some free wins with blood moon though.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I was basing it off an assumption of 'I'm playing UWR in some shape'. Is Blue Moon probably better? Sure, but if we are playing other decks, there are many many better decks that not 'maybe' better, but are factually better.
I think Jeskai Control has the best matchups vs any deck in the format, it's the literal swiss army knife of decks. The problem is that other decks either run super low or run threats that we just can't deal with over time.
I'd take Jeskai over almost any creature based deck, with Hollow One being our worst matchup.
I'd give better than even odds to Jeskai vs any combo deck outside of Ad Nauseam, unless you play counterflux in the sideboard.
Jeskai is excellent against big mana decks (valakut, ponza) but struggles against tron cause there's nothing we can counter if they just have natural tron or play a turn 1 map and have tron turn 3. Match 1 is not in our favor but sideboarding gives us an edge. We have to be aggressive though because the tron player will eventually get into wurmcoil/world breaker range.
I've played a lot of Blue Moon and the problem is that you get a lot of games with a board state that you cannot interact with well and without the combo in hand. It's a good deck but it can easily get overwhelmed if it doesn't find the combo quickly.
I really like the addition of Roast, and Spreading Seas. I also think Porphery Nodes and Relic do work well on the SB. I didn't use Crumble to Dust tonight due to my match ups but it will help us immensely versus TitanShift/Valakut and Tron. I also think 3 Serum Vision is fine when running 2 Spreading Seas, Azcanta, and Jace.
nice list. looks pretty balanced, so more geared towards an open field?
i agree that roast isnt bad removal. i think abrade or blessed alliance can be played MD right now as well. i dont think ive ever played crumble and it ended up being good, maybe ill give it another try. i think id prefer another sweeper like anger or EE over nodes. what was the matchup you had in mind?
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Imo Ponza is far more difficult than Tron. You have Path to deal with Trons creatures and some cmc2 counters for their T3 Karn. Ofc T4 Ulamog OTD is probably lights out, but if they dont draw too hot and you have some interaction or FoR to buy time you are definetly in the game. Against Ponza I can nearly never win against T2 Moon + some Stone Rains or vice versa. You cant interact with Ponzas Sprawl start unless you are OTP with Seas or EE or have your 1-off Tear OTD. If your starting Hand does line up perfectly against their LD you might still loose to multiple BBEs, Trecker or even Thrun.
The difference for me is that you have 3-4 Turns to set up against Tron (and Valakut). Against Ponza you are pressured right of the bat and from different angles. I grind UWR since december and for me there is no MU I lose more to than Ponza.
This surprises me; I have found the ponza matchup continuously very favourable. The one thing I do lose to is if I can't play around a blood moon.
I feel that, once the first three/four turns are over, their land destruction just kind of become dead draws. Their wincon bombs aren't that great either. A lot of what they try to achieve can be nullified by just being very deliberate in your landdrops; what will you need three turns from now and what land do you want go goad them into destroying? Simply not cracking fetches also goes a long way. The deck is also much, MUCH better on the play than on the draw.
For that situation to occur they need to have Utopia Sprawl (40%) , we do not have a fetch in our opener (30%), and they either need to be on the play (50%) or we have to not have access to a turn 2 counterspell (60%). And even then I disagree that a turn 2 resolved stone rain is really that much of a death sentence; their follow-ups are just not that impressive.
I've been playing Jeskia for a little while now and I've changed my deck list 3 times , in the past 5 years, from Nahiri to Geist to control. I find that JtMS is a very lack luster 4 drop.
Has anybody else found this as well? I'm always wishing it was something else when I draw it.
I've been playing Jeskia for a little while now and I've changed my deck list 3 times , in the past 5 years, from Nahiri to Geist to control. I find that JtMS is a very lack luster 4 drop.
Has anybody else found this as well? I'm always wishing it was something else when I draw it.
I would agree. At the moment I am running with 1 Jace, 1 Gideon, and 1 Torrential Gearhulk. I even up my burn count. I think we need to be focused on trouncing creature decks and having backup for the bad MU's in the sideboard.
jace is a very powerful card, but mediocre on its own. its best when you are presenting varied threats which ups the cost of them focusing on dealing with a single planeswalker. big jeskai lists dont really have that. therefore you want to run 1 or 2 at most as a means to shut the door on games that are close. i believe running 0 is wrong because of its versatility and uniqueness as a win condition, nothing ive seen thus far since the unbans has changed my mind on that.
as for the ponza matchup. its bad. their strategy aims to prey on decks that require developing their mana base to leverage their more powerful cards. this means control, slower midrange, and big mana. 2 color decks like UR or UW are less soft, but it still isnt ideal.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I have no idea why you play Roast in a Jeskai Control deck. Something's wrong with your manabase, you've got 20 lands. Probably Flooded Strand is the issue. If your meta is big mana I think your should increase your ability to put pressure (Clique?) and counter their spells efficiently (Ceremonious Rejection, Disdainful Stroke).
The lands didn't copy correctly. It's supposed to be 24.
For that situation to occur they need to have Utopia Sprawl (40%) , we do not have a fetch in our opener (30%), and they either need to be on the play (50%) or we have to not have access to a turn 2 counterspell (60%). And even then I disagree that a turn 2 resolved stone rain is really that much of a death sentence; their follow-ups are just not that impressive.
Well, seems like we have very different experiences then. Even with a fetchland in hand I usually have to crack it sooner than later in order to deal with Moon, Tracker or BBE (which I think are good threats). Thats when they are gunning for my lands afterwards. What do you resolve that puts so much pressure on them to invalidate their Stone Rains on our crucial mana sources / basics even on Turn 4? Im running control, not Queller + Geist due to Humans and H1. I dont want to run Crucible just for this MU.
Why are you cracking your fetches early? If you keep them up you can't get stone rained or land destructed and if they drop moon you just crack for basics.
Post sideboard you should have wear/tear or just straight up counter the moon. If they play BBE let them resolve the cascade and then they will be forced to stone rain a fetchland, which is pretty terrible. If we are on the play then turn 4 we can bounce sprawl counterspell and that pretty much screws ponza. BBE is just not a threat, every removal spell we have deals with it.
Be disciplined and patient with your fetches and the matchup is not bad at all. Keep Chandra off the table and make sure you fetch for a white to explode the blood moons if they do resolve. Otherwise you can counter moons and chandra and let basically everything else resolve if you aren't under a moon (for sweepers).
I play Ponza and Jeskai and if both players know what they are doing then Ponza is still favoured.
However if you keep the right hand and sequence correctly as a Jeskai player you will raise your % by a huge margin. I simply see so many mistakes from Jeskai players on the other side of the table from a Ponza opponent.
IMO in the right hands a Jeskai deck on the play is slightly favoured, but on the draw always unfavoured. Take some of Bearscapes advice guys!
Keep hands that can do TWO of the following things, keeping in mind that their t2 is the critical turn;
a) Bolt the bird
b) counter a t2 rain / moon
c) land 2 basics by turn 3
Keeping a hand that can only achieve 1 of the 3 outcomes still runs the risk of being blown out.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
the biggest obstacle to a better counterspell is it being able to make it through standard. the best we could probably hope for is something akin to fatal push that has stipulations attached to it. i think a serviceable force of will variant would go a long way as well.
based on what people say in the state of modern thread preordain seems the next likeliest unban they would try. it would be an upgrade to blue decks across the board, but control would gain a lot out of a better consistency tool.
whether or not that happens though i feel fine playing a slower snapcaster deck at the moment. im picking up some blood moons soon to try blue moon (traded them away after the twin ban), but that is cause id like some variety and not cause i think jeskai is bad.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I have no idea why you play Roast in a Jeskai Control deck. Something's wrong with your manabase, you've got 20 lands. Probably Flooded Strand is the issue. If your meta is big mana I think your should increase your ability to put pressure (Clique?) and counter their spells efficiently (Ceremonious Rejection, Disdainful Stroke).
The lands didn't copy correctly. It's supposed to be 24.
And how is roast not good against big mana?
What big mana deck are you thinking about specifically? The only one where it's acceptable is Eldrazi, but even then, you have so many better choices in our colors.
Adding another removal spell that hits things that are 5 toughness is good. Things that Bolt doesn't hit but Roast does: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, Champion of the Parish, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, Hollow One, and Death's Shadow. Being a Sorcery is fine, and sometimes its nice to have a removal that hits these cards that doesn't have a huge drawback like Path does. Also adding a 5th copy of a removal adds about 8-9% chance increase to have a Path or Roast in your starting hand
I have no idea why you play Roast in a Jeskai Control deck. Something's wrong with your manabase, you've got 20 lands. Probably Flooded Strand is the issue. If your meta is big mana I think your should increase your ability to put pressure (Clique?) and counter their spells efficiently (Ceremonious Rejection, Disdainful Stroke).
The lands didn't copy correctly. It's supposed to be 24.
And how is roast not good against big mana?
What big mana deck are you thinking about specifically? The only one where it's acceptable is Eldrazi, but even then, you have so many better choices in our colors.
Adding another removal spell that hits things that are 5 toughness is good. Things that Bolt doesn't hit but Roast does: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, Champion of the Parish, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, Hollow One, and Death's Shadow. Being a Sorcery is fine, and sometimes its nice to have a removal that hits these cards that doesn't have a huge drawback like Path does. Also adding a 5th copy of a removal adds about 8-9% chance increase to have a Path or Roast in your starting hand
I'll be honest, I can't believe you guys really think Roast is a good choice in Jeskai. If 4 Path aren't enough for you, you have Supreme Verdict, Blessed Alliance, Detention Sphere. All of these cards are better than Roast. Roast has been out there for quite some time, never saw play in Jeskai, there must be a reason for that. Heck, even maindeck Engineered Explosives is better than Roast.
It depends on your meta. And Supreme Verdict is not a good comparison. 4 mana is too late sometimes.
Roast is only remotely good now because of hollow one. That being said, valorous stance, detention sphere, azorius charm, blessed alliance, etc, are all better answers than roast, IMO.
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also what is the current meta and how is blue moon superior? both blue moon and jeskai are tier 2 right now both with unique strengths and weaknesses.
jeskai is better against humans, hollow one, and affinity.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)i like blue moon and look to try it out in the near future, but jeskai still has very clear advantages against aggression (more than double the removal and main deck sweepers). big mana is on a downswing.
both decks are good but not great options right now, calling one or the other objectively superior is a stretch. i would like to get some free wins with blood moon though.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I was basing it off an assumption of 'I'm playing UWR in some shape'. Is Blue Moon probably better? Sure, but if we are playing other decks, there are many many better decks that not 'maybe' better, but are factually better.
Thats all.
Spirits
I'd take Jeskai over almost any creature based deck, with Hollow One being our worst matchup.
I'd give better than even odds to Jeskai vs any combo deck outside of Ad Nauseam, unless you play counterflux in the sideboard.
Jeskai is excellent against big mana decks (valakut, ponza) but struggles against tron cause there's nothing we can counter if they just have natural tron or play a turn 1 map and have tron turn 3. Match 1 is not in our favor but sideboarding gives us an edge. We have to be aggressive though because the tron player will eventually get into wurmcoil/world breaker range.
I've played a lot of Blue Moon and the problem is that you get a lot of games with a board state that you cannot interact with well and without the combo in hand. It's a good deck but it can easily get overwhelmed if it doesn't find the combo quickly.
1 Electrolyze
4 Flooded Strand
1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Roast
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Serum Visions
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
2 Spreading Seas
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Celestial Purge
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
I really like the addition of Roast, and Spreading Seas. I also think Porphery Nodes and Relic do work well on the SB. I didn't use Crumble to Dust tonight due to my match ups but it will help us immensely versus TitanShift/Valakut and Tron. I also think 3 Serum Vision is fine when running 2 Spreading Seas, Azcanta, and Jace.
Here's a more organized version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019892#paper
i agree that roast isnt bad removal. i think abrade or blessed alliance can be played MD right now as well. i dont think ive ever played crumble and it ended up being good, maybe ill give it another try. i think id prefer another sweeper like anger or EE over nodes. what was the matchup you had in mind?
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This surprises me; I have found the ponza matchup continuously very favourable. The one thing I do lose to is if I can't play around a blood moon.
I feel that, once the first three/four turns are over, their land destruction just kind of become dead draws. Their wincon bombs aren't that great either. A lot of what they try to achieve can be nullified by just being very deliberate in your landdrops; what will you need three turns from now and what land do you want go goad them into destroying? Simply not cracking fetches also goes a long way. The deck is also much, MUCH better on the play than on the draw.
Has anybody else found this as well? I'm always wishing it was something else when I draw it.
I would agree. At the moment I am running with 1 Jace, 1 Gideon, and 1 Torrential Gearhulk. I even up my burn count. I think we need to be focused on trouncing creature decks and having backup for the bad MU's in the sideboard.
as for the ponza matchup. its bad. their strategy aims to prey on decks that require developing their mana base to leverage their more powerful cards. this means control, slower midrange, and big mana. 2 color decks like UR or UW are less soft, but it still isnt ideal.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The lands didn't copy correctly. It's supposed to be 24.
And how is roast not good against big mana?
Why are you cracking your fetches early? If you keep them up you can't get stone rained or land destructed and if they drop moon you just crack for basics.
Post sideboard you should have wear/tear or just straight up counter the moon. If they play BBE let them resolve the cascade and then they will be forced to stone rain a fetchland, which is pretty terrible. If we are on the play then turn 4 we can bounce sprawl counterspell and that pretty much screws ponza. BBE is just not a threat, every removal spell we have deals with it.
Be disciplined and patient with your fetches and the matchup is not bad at all. Keep Chandra off the table and make sure you fetch for a white to explode the blood moons if they do resolve. Otherwise you can counter moons and chandra and let basically everything else resolve if you aren't under a moon (for sweepers).
its winnable if you play tight and make good mulliganing decisions, but ponza is definitely favored.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)However if you keep the right hand and sequence correctly as a Jeskai player you will raise your % by a huge margin. I simply see so many mistakes from Jeskai players on the other side of the table from a Ponza opponent.
IMO in the right hands a Jeskai deck on the play is slightly favoured, but on the draw always unfavoured. Take some of Bearscapes advice guys!
Keep hands that can do TWO of the following things, keeping in mind that their t2 is the critical turn;
a) Bolt the bird
b) counter a t2 rain / moon
c) land 2 basics by turn 3
Keeping a hand that can only achieve 1 of the 3 outcomes still runs the risk of being blown out.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
based on what people say in the state of modern thread preordain seems the next likeliest unban they would try. it would be an upgrade to blue decks across the board, but control would gain a lot out of a better consistency tool.
whether or not that happens though i feel fine playing a slower snapcaster deck at the moment. im picking up some blood moons soon to try blue moon (traded them away after the twin ban), but that is cause id like some variety and not cause i think jeskai is bad.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Adding another removal spell that hits things that are 5 toughness is good. Things that Bolt doesn't hit but Roast does: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, Champion of the Parish, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, Hollow One, and Death's Shadow. Being a Sorcery is fine, and sometimes its nice to have a removal that hits these cards that doesn't have a huge drawback like Path does. Also adding a 5th copy of a removal adds about 8-9% chance increase to have a Path or Roast in your starting hand
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
It depends on your meta. And Supreme Verdict is not a good comparison. 4 mana is too late sometimes.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]