im a sucker for transformational sideboards, so i figured id ask if anyone has had any experience with it.
Used to do that with boremandos. The surprise factor can definitely win some games.
Elesh Norn is a way to beat a difficult matchup dredge (and other go wide strategies, affinity, tokens etc. ), and it combines nicely with our new tech Secure the Wastes Wurmcoil Engine is a potential target in these Jund times. Iona can beat some strategies, like Storm, mono black, burn (might be too slow)Green-Red Scapeshift etc.
Is there a creature to beat Auras?
im a sucker for transformational sideboards, so i figured id ask if anyone has had any experience with it.
Used to do that with boremandos. The surprise factor can definitely win some games.
Elesh Norn is a way to beat a difficult matchup dredge (and other go wide strategies, affinity, tokens etc. ), and it combines nicely with our new tech Secure the Waste Wurmcoil Engine is a potential target in these Jund times. Iona can beat some strategies, like Storm, mono black, burn (might be too slow)Green-Red Scapeshift etc.
Is there a creature to beat Auras?
I Guess Bruna, Light of Alabaster can beat Hexproof auras if it gets to block or attack and take over all auras on the battlefield hehe. They do play Rest in peace, though, and may have protection from creatures. A black creature with an edict effect is an alternative, but then there is the leyline..
EDIT: Leyline even stops Gifts ungiven itself, I found out.
Hey guys, I’m trying this deck again since the jace unban, does anyone has a stock list to share? I really can’t tell wheter the core shell runs 4 spell queller or gheists or none at all. I want to have a not so tough match against jund since my meta is pretty much jund and affinity. A few years ago I used to play the walls & resto package and I remember having a great jund match but the decklist also had remand and mana leak, are those are out of the question now? Also I haven’t had any great results with jace, should we run just 1-2 copies instead of 3-4?
Either you play with quellers/geists in the more midrangey version, which didnt really change post-jace. Jace is probably better in the sideboard of that deck.
In the big jeskai deck, cutting nahiri + gearhulk for 2 jaces and calling it a day is fine. I wouldn't say there is enough of a consensus on stock lists yet.
Big jeskai is probably better vs jund.
Wall + resto (and other etb creatures) have fallen out of favor recently. They might still be playable, but it seems like theres a good reason that queller/geist/clique are the popular dudes.
Mana leak is still playable, but logic knot is better right now. Remand is not recommended, though the queller/geist lists might be able to get away with some.
No consensus on the number of jaces. It will probably vary by deck, but I would never say 2 is wrong. 2-3 is probably where most will settle.
In reagards to the Mana Leak, a few of the pros have started doing a blend of logic knot and mana leak, and I am doing the same (a 2/2 split)
It's really good in the beginning turns and with the way the format is going with big tap out plays I could see it getting even better.
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
yeah its pretty safe to say that the number of jaces we want is some number less than 4. 4x jace is just too much of that type of effect, which leaves you vulnerable to faster decks that could care less about a 4 mana sorcery do-nothing.
2-3 seems like the right number, and really the number you want depends on the matchup. for instance id play 5 jaces if i could against jund.
there is no stock list at the moment because frankly nobody has any idea of what is good right now. there arent a whole lot of tournament results to look at, and the results we do have are all over the place.
a few lists have been showing up that include restoration angel, so i wouldnt count that card out. if you liked that playstyle in the past, id sleeve it up to see how it plays out. this is a time for experimentation.
24 lands is pretty set as where you want to be with any of the builds. though if you are particularly top heavy playing cards like Elspeth6 in the main, then a 25th might be warranted. 5-basics, and room for 1-2 Field of Ruin if you want to push it, it isnt a free-roll though so just keep that in mind.
3-4 colonnades is the norm. card is a workhorse. nuff said.
2-3 cryptic commands. 1-2 less than a couple months ago, but if you include jace you gotta make cuts somewhere.
2-3 logic knot is the 2cmc counter of choice at the moment.
4 serum visions or opt. visions is the more powerful card, but opt is an option if you want to play entirely at instant speed. visions is better in the early game and opt better in the mid to late - so keep that in mind when making your decision.
fill out the rest of the spellbase with bolts, paths, electrolyze, spell snare, and verdicts as you see fit. obviously less verdicts if you are running more creature heavy - though i think you always want at least 2 4-cmc sweepers somewhere in the 75.
Search for Azcanta and Secure the Wastes are relatively new inclusions. they are both proven powerful cards, and many here will testify to their usefulness. however if you are more creature heavy then these become less needed/good.
for the sideboard fill it up with whatever counterspells, creatures, or hate cards that tickle your fancy. the tuning is a never-ending process.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
If you are on a creature light version ('Big Jeskai' I guess) and you dont have 2 Search, I dont even know that we are playing the same game. That card is nuts. :]
@tronix, How is Opt better in the mid- to late-game? I thought the only reason for wanting to play it at instant speed is to leave your early game spells open. For instance, you may have a fetch land in play with a Lightning Bolt and Opt (as opposed to Serum Vision) in hand. Otherwise, I think I would always prefer Serum Visions later unless you're trying to keep everything at instant speed for whatever reason.
opt has flexibility like you say so you can hold up mana for one play, but if it isnt necessary then you can opt for some incidental value.
serum visions is better in the early turns because you arent looking for anything specific (nothing has happened in the game yet) and you are just looking to hit your land drops. this means that a random card and digging two down to set up your next turns provides more smoothing than seeing a single card and potentially going one deeper.
in the mid to late game you are looking for specific pieces right away (topdeck wars), so improving your chances of getting it and casting it immediately is more influential.
my statement isnt without exceptions, for the reasons you mention. but generally though i think it holds true.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I also feel Opt is strongest turns 1-4, when serum visions would normally compromise us from representing Snare, Knot, or Cryptic.
It also makes fetch sequencing difficult or extra painful when we're talking 3-color decks.
Personally I think a split is often the right call. Both have merits, and being able to choose between one or the other those times when you're holding both is actually a big plus. Depending on deck, I often end up with something like 2-2 or 2-3 (4-2 when on Breach, for the extra digging).
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
i guess if your only consideration is holding up mana. to me that seems to focus exclusively on the instant vs. sorcery and not the card effects and what they provide at various points in the game.
say for instance you get to hold up mana on turn 2 on the play, but they dont do anything so you opt resulting in you missing a land drop when visions would have gotten you there.
if you have your third land drop in hand AND a response, then you dont visions and hold up mana anyways. you visions the next turn to make sure you get to lands 4 and 5.
unless you are playing against a deck where you absolutely have to answer something in the early turns you are better served making sure you develop your mana so you can leverage your power cards with higher mana cost (cryptic, jace, verdict) or double spelling with snap. the superior digging power of visions increases the chances of this happening.
in the later turns when you already have mana, you need to find answers. visions digs more cards down so if you have time its better at finding what you need. however if you desperately need a counterspell for their next play, or an additional turn means another attack or planeswalker activation then opt providing immediate selection is better.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm treating snapcaster mage as a 3cmc drop (that's why there are only 2 spell queller and 1 Electrolyze MB), and secure the wastes as a 5cmc or more, because I wanted to smooth the mana curve as much as possible (see the attachment). Also I went to 9 fetches so hopefully I won't drown as much with 25 lands. Having Settle the Wreckage, Spell Queller, Supreme Verdict and the second Jace in the SB, is for the sole purpose of swapping them for another in the matches where 2 copies are necessary or not as useful. What do you think?
I also feel Opt is strongest turns 1-4, when serum visions would normally compromise us from representing Snare, Knot, or Cryptic.
It also makes fetch sequencing difficult or extra painful when we're talking 3-color decks.
Personally I think a split is often the right call. Both have merits, and being able to choose between one or the other those times when you're holding both is actually a big plus. Depending on deck, I often end up with something like 2-2 or 2-3 (4-2 when on Breach, for the extra digging).
yeah i play a 3-2 visions/opt split
dont get me wrong opt is still good in the early turns cause having the option to hold up mana is sweet, i just think serum visions effect is better at making sure you get enough lands + action going into the mid game.
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...like you are hedging, which is generally frowned upon over streamlining in one direction other the other...
What does hedging mean in this context? I'm not that fluent in english. The idea behind 2 quellers is to smooth the curve so I don't have more 3 drops than 2 drops etc., that is to have less probabilities to draw a hand filled with 3 drops or drawing 2 four drops before turn 3. My meta is mostly Jund, Affinity, Etron & Tron, then Queller should be more relevant than gheist right? I picked a settle the wreckage against dredge, living end, and affinity.
its like you cant decide what you want your main strategy to be, so you include a little bit of both.
if you wanted to focus on one strategy you would have no quellers or all 4 in the main deck.
also having a good curve is good, since you dont want too many expensive spells - however it isnt as important in this kind of deck. you arent tapping out on your turn, so it isnt as important to maximize your mana usage. there are also opt/serum visions and snapcaster to fill in the gaps.
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its like you cant decide what you want your main strategy to be, so you include a little bit of both.
if you wanted to focus on one strategy you would have no quellers or all 4 in the main deck.
also having a good curve is good, since you dont want too many expensive spells - however it isnt as important in this kind of deck. you arent tapping out on your turn, so it isnt as important to maximize your mana usage. there are also opt/serum visions and snapcaster to fill in the gaps.
Ok! I guess now I'm more confused whether I should play Quellers or not :/
To me right now, Quellers are dead the moment they hit the table. Bolts are everywhere, Path, Push, Decay, Pulse, Lilly Edict...I've never been a fan of Quellers though.
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Used to do that with boremandos. The surprise factor can definitely win some games.
Elesh Norn is a way to beat a difficult matchup dredge (and other go wide strategies, affinity, tokens etc. ), and it combines nicely with our new tech Secure the Wastes Wurmcoil Engine is a potential target in these Jund times. Iona can beat some strategies, like Storm, mono black, burn (might be too slow)Green-Red Scapeshift etc.
Is there a creature to beat Auras?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I Guess Bruna, Light of Alabaster can beat Hexproof auras if it gets to block or attack and take over all auras on the battlefield
EDIT: Leyline even stops Gifts ungiven itself, I found out.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
In the big jeskai deck, cutting nahiri + gearhulk for 2 jaces and calling it a day is fine. I wouldn't say there is enough of a consensus on stock lists yet.
Big jeskai is probably better vs jund.
Wall + resto (and other etb creatures) have fallen out of favor recently. They might still be playable, but it seems like theres a good reason that queller/geist/clique are the popular dudes.
Mana leak is still playable, but logic knot is better right now. Remand is not recommended, though the queller/geist lists might be able to get away with some.
No consensus on the number of jaces. It will probably vary by deck, but I would never say 2 is wrong. 2-3 is probably where most will settle.
It's really good in the beginning turns and with the way the format is going with big tap out plays I could see it getting even better.
2-3 seems like the right number, and really the number you want depends on the matchup. for instance id play 5 jaces if i could against jund.
there is no stock list at the moment because frankly nobody has any idea of what is good right now. there arent a whole lot of tournament results to look at, and the results we do have are all over the place.
a few lists have been showing up that include restoration angel, so i wouldnt count that card out. if you liked that playstyle in the past, id sleeve it up to see how it plays out. this is a time for experimentation.
24 lands is pretty set as where you want to be with any of the builds. though if you are particularly top heavy playing cards like Elspeth6 in the main, then a 25th might be warranted. 5-basics, and room for 1-2 Field of Ruin if you want to push it, it isnt a free-roll though so just keep that in mind.
3-4 colonnades is the norm. card is a workhorse. nuff said.
2-3 cryptic commands. 1-2 less than a couple months ago, but if you include jace you gotta make cuts somewhere.
2-3 logic knot is the 2cmc counter of choice at the moment.
4 serum visions or opt. visions is the more powerful card, but opt is an option if you want to play entirely at instant speed. visions is better in the early game and opt better in the mid to late - so keep that in mind when making your decision.
fill out the rest of the spellbase with bolts, paths, electrolyze, spell snare, and verdicts as you see fit. obviously less verdicts if you are running more creature heavy - though i think you always want at least 2 4-cmc sweepers somewhere in the 75.
Search for Azcanta and Secure the Wastes are relatively new inclusions. they are both proven powerful cards, and many here will testify to their usefulness. however if you are more creature heavy then these become less needed/good.
for the sideboard fill it up with whatever counterspells, creatures, or hate cards that tickle your fancy. the tuning is a never-ending process.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
opt has flexibility like you say so you can hold up mana for one play, but if it isnt necessary then you can opt for some incidental value.
serum visions is better in the early turns because you arent looking for anything specific (nothing has happened in the game yet) and you are just looking to hit your land drops. this means that a random card and digging two down to set up your next turns provides more smoothing than seeing a single card and potentially going one deeper.
in the mid to late game you are looking for specific pieces right away (topdeck wars), so improving your chances of getting it and casting it immediately is more influential.
my statement isnt without exceptions, for the reasons you mention. but generally though i think it holds true.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
It also makes fetch sequencing difficult or extra painful when we're talking 3-color decks.
Personally I think a split is often the right call. Both have merits, and being able to choose between one or the other those times when you're holding both is actually a big plus. Depending on deck, I often end up with something like 2-2 or 2-3 (4-2 when on Breach, for the extra digging).
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
say for instance you get to hold up mana on turn 2 on the play, but they dont do anything so you opt resulting in you missing a land drop when visions would have gotten you there.
if you have your third land drop in hand AND a response, then you dont visions and hold up mana anyways. you visions the next turn to make sure you get to lands 4 and 5.
unless you are playing against a deck where you absolutely have to answer something in the early turns you are better served making sure you develop your mana so you can leverage your power cards with higher mana cost (cryptic, jace, verdict) or double spelling with snap. the superior digging power of visions increases the chances of this happening.
in the later turns when you already have mana, you need to find answers. visions digs more cards down so if you have time its better at finding what you need. however if you desperately need a counterspell for their next play, or an additional turn means another attack or planeswalker activation then opt providing immediate selection is better.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)1x Arid Mesa
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
Planeswalkers 1
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
3x Logic Knot
3x Mana Leak
4x Opt
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
1x Spell Snare
Creatures 6
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Queller
Sorceries 1
1x Supreme Verdict
Enchantments 2
2x Search for Azcanta
1x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Settle the Wreckage
2x Spell Queller
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wear // Tear
I'm treating snapcaster mage as a 3cmc drop (that's why there are only 2 spell queller and 1 Electrolyze MB), and secure the wastes as a 5cmc or more, because I wanted to smooth the mana curve as much as possible (see the attachment). Also I went to 9 fetches so hopefully I won't drown as much with 25 lands. Having Settle the Wreckage, Spell Queller, Supreme Verdict and the second Jace in the SB, is for the sole purpose of swapping them for another in the matches where 2 copies are necessary or not as useful. What do you think?
yeah i play a 3-2 visions/opt split
dont get me wrong opt is still good in the early turns cause having the option to hold up mana is sweet, i just think serum visions effect is better at making sure you get enough lands + action going into the mid game.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)id pick up a helix, electrolyze, or another cryptic. you can easily support 3 cryptics with 25 lands and only a single jace.
2 quellers and 1 verdict seems sorta odd. like you are hedging, which is generally frowned upon over streamlining in one direction other the other.
i never leave home without a clique in the 75. not sure where youd fit it in, but ill just say that i endorse that card 100%
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)What does hedging mean in this context? I'm not that fluent in english. The idea behind 2 quellers is to smooth the curve so I don't have more 3 drops than 2 drops etc., that is to have less probabilities to draw a hand filled with 3 drops or drawing 2 four drops before turn 3. My meta is mostly Jund, Affinity, Etron & Tron, then Queller should be more relevant than gheist right? I picked a settle the wreckage against dredge, living end, and affinity.
its like you cant decide what you want your main strategy to be, so you include a little bit of both.
if you wanted to focus on one strategy you would have no quellers or all 4 in the main deck.
also having a good curve is good, since you dont want too many expensive spells - however it isnt as important in this kind of deck. you arent tapping out on your turn, so it isnt as important to maximize your mana usage. there are also opt/serum visions and snapcaster to fill in the gaps.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Ok! I guess now I'm more confused whether I should play Quellers or not :/
Spirits