MTG Salvation

There's a danger in playing too many cantrips... combo decks play 8+ but they are cantripping into immediate wins... control decks dont have immediate wins and need card or tempo advantage... and cantrips are tempo negative...

GDS is such a strong deck because they get to play 12 cantrips. Some even run 1 or 2 Sleight of Hand because they want more

I mean with shadow they run so many cantrips that they just go through their whole deck while filling up their yard with said cantrips for Delve. I think that Jeskai does that with cheap spells, and that's why Knot is good and will be better after Opt is played.

Quote from Bearscape »

GDS is such a strong deck because they get to play 12 cantrips. Some even run 1 or 2 Sleight of Hand because they want more

But without the "insta-win button," what djphan says is true. Based on practice sessions with a friend, Grixis DS can have some weird openers/draws. When you're opening hand is a lot of cantrips, you generally don't know how to estimate the strength of the hand. It could end up being a pile of poop or the best thing ever. Cantrips are great for providing some level of consistency, but they don't always provide what you want when you want it. You also don't want to end up with a deck chock full of fluff and not enough action.

Also, I would argue DS gets most of its power from super cheap and relevant interaction at most stages of the game while having fairly quick clocks.

So if it would be better to only play 6 cantrips, what should the split be of Serum / Opt? I'm thinking 2 Visions/4 Opt

The difference with GDS is that they are making the deck denser for their win conditions... which are both larger and mana efficient than anything jeskai has in the color pie.. all those cantrips effectively make DS or tasigur cost at most 2 mana to draw that consistently...

If youre cantripping into more bolts or snaps or paths or spell quellers.. or nahiri its not going to do as much as it does with other decks.. and youre effectively making them more expensive to draw that often which kind of nullifies why theyre so good..

Quote from djphan25 »

The difference with GDS is that they are making the deck denser for their win conditions... which are both larger and mana efficient than anything jeskai has in the color pie.. all those cantrips effectively make DS or tasigur cost at most 2 mana to draw that consistently...

If youre cantripping into more bolts or snaps or paths or spell quellers.. or nahiri its not going to do as much as it does with other decks.. and youre effectively making them more expensive to draw that often which kind of nullifies why theyre so good..

That is one of the reasons GDS runs so many cantrips. But a large part of playing Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand is that they replace land because of the selection they offer. That results in fewer dead draws mid- to late-game. Not sure how that aligns with Jeskai Control but it's food for thought; may mean running a denser, lower CMC version to get the most out of the tweak.

I think its kind of difficult to discuss opt in the abstract.
IMO, nahiri lists are going to want more serum visions than opts, because they're more concerned about digging towards a nahiri, and less concerned about playing entirely at instant speed.
On the other hand, a spell queller list is going to care a lot more about about the instant speed-ness.

That all being said, its commonly accepted in legacy that more cantrips is more better.
While I do understand there are differences between the formats, in general, if you can play a couple really strong cards, and a bunch of ways to find them, thats potentially preferable than a couple strong cards, and a bunch of whatever cards.

My current plan for a queller list going forward is this:

I'm not sure if ancestral visions is correct (I think its a bit better now because its easier to filter away, and I suspect we're going to see a lot more opt decks for atleast a little while, due to interest)
The sideboard is also all over the place.
If I were to cut the visions, electrolyze, lightning helix, and some kind of counterspell (spell snare, mana leak, remand, negate, maybe something else) are top of the list as replacements.

My list is
-10 Creatures
2 Geist
4 Snap
4 Queller

-26 Spells
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Opt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions

-22 Lands
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Definitely a cute list with all 4-ofs.
Do you miss cheap counterspells, specifically 2cmc?
No remands, mana leaks, logic knots, etc, mean you're gonna be weak to a good number of things, especially on the draw.
I'd highly suggest cutting 2 electrolyze, or 1 lyze/1 helix for 2 two-cmc counters.
I also think 4 colonnades with only 22 lands is a bit ambitious.
Cutting a steam vents and a colonnade for some checklands/filter lands/fast lands would be good, I feel.
Otherwise, I like it. If I decide to cut the visions, my list will probably look a lot like this.

Ixalan release holds a healthy amount of growth potential for UWx control in general. So far;

a) Opt
b) Settle the Wreckage
c) Planeswalker Uniqueness rule change

Recently I posted a horrible list while musing about a possible gideon jeskai build, and, horrible as it was it seems to fun of an idea to give up on so I'll throw this list up and see how bad or decent you guys think this might be. I've been meaning to pick up my final 3 copies of Nahiri, the Harbinger and really have been wanting to give a Nahiri list a try, so upon Ixalan release I will be mucking about with something like this;



With the main idea being to wall of opens/disrupt/cantrip on turns 1 and 2, and curve Gideon of the Trials emblem into Nahiri, the Harbinger with Pact of Negation back-up.

The most crazy thing is of course the whopping 0 burn spells... red is literally splashed for Nahiri and sideboard cards. The list takes a more UW-centric early game, focusing on cantriping and disrupting rather than keeping the board clean with spot removal. I think the sparsity of spot removal is of course made up for by the 4x Gideon of the Trials and the main-deck Supreme Verdicts and Wall of Omens. Needing very little red mana also opens up a UW-style mana denial package of Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge to combine with Spreading Seas.

Looks hilariously fun to me and might have some hidden potential? Or maybe it's just a pile of trash. It'll be my pile of fun trash later this month

Hey everyone, just curious...what are some ways yiu all are shoring up your EldraziTron matchup? There has been a lot of it showing up at my LGS and it's been a slog. Are 2 Rejection and 2 stony really just the most reasonable things to bring in or can we dig deeper into the well for things like disdainful stroke or even valorous stance?

All of the cards you mentioned are good.
Counterspells of most varieties (rejection, stroke, negate, even mana leak) are pretty good.
Stony silence is alright, but not a major hedge.
Land hate like spreading seas, molten rain, blood moon, or crumble to dust are reasonable to varying degrees.
Removal like valorous stance, condemn, supreme verdict, etc, are good.
I'm a big fan of vendilion clique against them, though I know some people aren't big on the card right now.
Planeswalkers like gideon (any of them, really), ajani vengeant (not as good here as some other matchups, but still servicable), etc, are options.
There are probably other options I'm missing, but there are a good number of tools.

Quote from TheAller »

AV is odd in that list. I would stick to the "model" that has been working lately, with Electrolyze and more Helixes. A Geist/Queller build like that needs Burn. Your plan is not to suspend a Vision and sit back, you're trying to be proactive when needed.

In my list I will make room for Opt going down to 22 lands and trimming 1-2 cards (Queller could be one of them).

My current list for reference:

Vegas10's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Flooded Strand 4 Scalding Tarn 1 Hallowed Fountain 2 Steam Vents 1 Sacred Foundry 3 Island 1 Plains 1 Mountain 4 Celestial Colonnade 2 Spirebluff Canal	4 Snapcaster Mage 4 Spell Queller 3 Geist of Saint Traft 4 Serum Visions 4 Path to Exile 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Lightning Helix 3 Logic Knot 3 Electrolyze 4 Cryptic Command	Sideboard 4 Ceremonious Rejection 4 Spreading Seas 3 Supreme Verdict 2 Timely Reinforcements 2 Counterflux

I will probably try to go -1 Colonnade, -1 Queller, -1 Helix and I'll have to think about the fourth slot. Could be another land, could be a Serum Vision even. I know for a fact Snapcaster, Bolt, Path and Cryptic will always be 4 of for me and I'd like all the other cards to be at least 3 of, I like the redundancy.

playing 4 colonnade and 4 cryptic I don't think even with Opt I'd go below 23 lands, this is a mana hungry deck.

Quote from TheAller »

I had missed this one. 24th place GP Sao Paulo. Felipe Gasparini with a spicy list with Lightning Angel instead of Geist. Why that choice and in which MU is the Angel better than Geist? I still have to think about it, but definitely interesting.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsao17/9th-32nd-decklists-2017-08-13

Lightning angel better in EldraTron and maybe even Jund MU's it usually seems. Not tested it myself.

Quote from TheAller »

I had missed this one. 24th place GP Sao Paulo. Felipe Gasparini with a spicy list with Lightning Angel instead of Geist. Why that choice and in which MU is the Angel better than Geist? I still have to think about it, but definitely interesting.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsao17/9th-32nd-decklists-2017-08-13

I would prefer restoration angel. Same body but gives you extra reach.
I've never been a fan of geists.

I am excited to replace my serum visions with opts though :D.

Quote from TheAller »

Quote from Cody_X »

Definitely a cute list with all 4-ofs.
Do you miss cheap counterspells, specifically 2cmc?
No remands, mana leaks, logic knots, etc, mean you're gonna be weak to a good number of things, especially on the draw.
I'd highly suggest cutting 2 electrolyze, or 1 lyze/1 helix for 2 two-cmc counters.
I also think 4 colonnades with only 22 lands is a bit ambitious.
Cutting a steam vents and a colonnade for some checklands/filter lands/fast lands would be good, I feel.
Otherwise, I like it. If I decide to cut the visions, my list will probably look a lot like this.

I do play Logic Knot, it's a 3 of, you must have missed it. It's absolutely necessary, I agree.

I agree on Colonnade as well, that's why I said if I cut a land to go down to 22, it will be the fourth Colonnade.

Quote from Vegas10 »

playing 4 colonnade and 4 cryptic I don't think even with Opt I'd go below 23 lands, this is a mana hungry deck.

Totally agree, that's why like I said the land I would cut IS a Colonnade.

The logic knot comment was intended for the post below you (whose list is all 4ofs, with no logic knots).

I'm not a huge fan of lightning angel, but I think mantis rider is moderately strong right now, for decks that want to lean more aggressively.

I'm just surprised that you guys want to be playing Geist of St. Traft instead of say.. Vendilion Clique? I know that Geist murders people when there's nothing in the way, but I really don't want to be tapping out, and Opt makes the Flash style even more appealing.

While I do see your point, murder is pretty good.
Vendilion clique (as much as I love it) is super lackluster really often.
With geist, you pretty much always get what you pay for. Its gonna smash unless they can build a big enough wall of bodies.
That being said, the old clique + snap + resto UWR control/flash decks of old might peak their heads around, with queller and opt.

Mmm. I've always wanted to play a Torrential Gearhulk in the sideboard instead of Elspeth. Dedicating to a flash style makes this more appealing.. and if you get to live the dream and Resto Angel your Gearhulk..


I'm living in magical christmas land now. But yeah, I think it may be something to consider now that opt is making the fully Flash playstyle more appealing.