I get all those issues but sometimes we just need things dead. One way or another. I may give Roast a shot this weekend.
That's true, but in what scenarios would you prefer to Roast over Condemn? I feel like lots of creatures in Modern don't really 'stay dead', whereas exiling or bottoming them is more 'permanent' removal. And if the goal is to -15 & Annihilator 6 the opponent, giving them 4-10 life isn't such a big deal.
Obviously Condemn wouldn't work very well in a Jeskai Flash deck, for instance, but for a control deck with a 'non-traditional' win condition, it seems pretty strong.
I get all those issues but sometimes we just need things dead. One way or another. I may give Roast a shot this weekend.
That's true, but in what scenarios would you prefer to Roast over Condemn? I feel like lots of creatures in Modern don't really 'stay dead', whereas exiling or bottoming them is more 'permanent' removal. And if the goal is to -15 & Annihilator 6 the opponent, giving them 4-10 life isn't such a big deal.
Obviously Condemn wouldn't work very well in a Jeskai Flash deck, for instance, but for a control deck with a 'non-traditional' win condition, it seems pretty strong.
I like Condemn specifically against Death's Shadow decks and EldraziTron. Beyond those matches though, I'm not sure where I would want it. That's why I like Roast for the slots you have Blessed Alliance in right now. It answers "most" Tarmogoyfs and random things like Siege Rhino. I don't know. I just like being flexible, and right now, I don't have an issue with Death's Shadow with my flash-control deck. I haven't been able to test against it with Nahiri though. All that said, I still think I would run it in the sideboard.
My main reason to run Blessed Alliance over the other options is that it is a lifegain spell versus burn. With 2x Blessed Alliance and 2x Negate in the side, I can cover the burn matchup without devoting dedicated sideboard slots to it.
My main reason to run Blessed Alliance over the other options is that it is a lifegain spell versus burn. With 2x Blessed Alliance and 2x Negate in the side, I can cover the burn matchup without devoting dedicated sideboard slots to it.
Except that it's actually four mana if you want to view Blessed Alliance as a removal spell and life gain. That's just too much for me.
Wait, how is that? You can just use the gain 4 life option on its own versus burn
Agree. gaining 4 is worth at least 1 of their cards, and being Snapcasterable is nice too if you get to play your 4th land. Also, Blessed Alliance is good against the almost extinct Infect and Bogles.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Wait, how is that? You can just use the gain 4 life option on its own versus burn
Right. For just 4 life. If you want to use as a removal spell as well, that requires you escalate it. It's rare that there will be no creatures involved so that's what I'm talking about. Even against non-Burn decks, the sacrifice effect doesn't always feel very good.
4 Life is more than a card against burn, and I prefer 4 life at 2 mana instant speed over 6 at 3 mana sorcery speed. We run 10 mainboard removal spells plus countermagic plus snapcaster, so creatures are very rarely the thing I lose against versus burn. It's much more often atarka's command/skullcrack blocking the one lifegain spell I need to stabilize, and blessed alliance plays around those much easier than timely reinforcements does
I don't know why what I'm typing is getting misunderstood. I understand how Blessed Alliance works against Burn, but Burn isn't the only deck in the format to worry about. I wouldn't play two Blessed Alliance main deck because it's too limited everywhere else. Besides, my Burn match is pretty solid as-is with just Lightning Helix. I'm not sure this would be my go-to spell to deal with Eldrazi was the point I was trying to make with LeakyMana. It's pretty bad against any attack involving Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Scions or other throw-away creatures. Even if you get them once, it's highly unlikely it will happen again since EldraziTron will bring in Karn or other crap control hates and Bant Eldrazi will bring in counter magic. So again, where else is Blessed Alliance useful?
Alright, I was confused about what you meant with the escalate thing
I bring in Blessed Alliance against any deck that often just has one big threat; Eldrazi decks, jund (death shadow and otherwise) and infect. Depending on my exact list, I also bring BA in against affinity and merfolk and the like, where it's obviously a tad mediocre but I just want more removal spells and it can occasionally save me from an Etched Champion. And finally burn of course
i think blessed alliance is better right now than either electrolyze or lightning helix. so i think it's fine to be played in the maindeck until the meta or the banned list changes.
On Mondays, I play in a meta with a lot of Grixis Delver and Burn. I don't know if this is the best place to ask, but how would you shore up your matchup vs. Grixis Delver after side? Here's the deck I want to play - Jeskai Saheeli.
My initial thoughts are to side out the combo, but Terminate will be free to hit Colonnades, which would be my only win con after siding those out (short of burn and Snappy beats). I haven't played Blue Control based decks in a long time, so I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
On Mondays, I play in a meta with a lot of Grixis Delver and Burn. I don't know if this is the best place to ask, but how would you shore up your matchup vs. Grixis Delver after side? Here's the deck I want to play - Jeskai Saheeli.
My initial thoughts are to side out the combo, but Terminate will be free to hit Colonnades, which would be my only win con after siding those out (short of burn and Snappy beats). I haven't played Blue Control based decks in a long time, so I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.
I personally have no idea about playing the Jeskai Saheeli, but my initial thinking is that you should keep your combo in against Grixis Delver. Cut -1 Jace, AoT, -1 Nahiri, -2 Wall of Omens and -1 Remand to add +2 Negate and +3 Dispel against Grixis Delver. I think you have to go all in on the combo and grind them out. Delver should be easy enough to kill. All the Grixis variants have issues dealing with planeswalkers on the board so you just have to weather the storm and try to clean up as soon as possible. I'm not sure if Spreading Seas is good enough against them.
Against Burn, I would probably makes these substitutions after going to sideboard: -1 Nahiri, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 Path to Exile for +2 Negate, +3 Dispel and +1 Lightning Helix. Path to Exile + Spreading Seas seems like a non-bo to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Otherwise, Wall of Omens and Felidar Guardian wall it up until you Snap + Bolt them out of the game or combo them out. I'm not sure how viable Saheeli Rai is against Burn but I feel like it can be back-breaking if you play it late. Her +1 ability is worth a lot against Burn.
Thanks a lot! The suggestions seem spot on and make a lot of sense. I think 3 Dispel and 2 Negate is solid enough to make the combo at least fairly protectable.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What do you guys think of my list? http://www.mtgvault.com/plybenk123/decks/nahiri-control/ I know it's four colours, but I feel that adding black for Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command and Collective Brutality to replace Lightning bolt and Helix might work in the current meta.
I'm thinking the same, I've been testing a 4 colour list for the past 3 months. It started out as a 4c Cruel Ultimatum list but after a bunch of testing I
ve realised there's too much Blood Moon going around for it to be truly competitive. What I've also noticed in testing is that in this current meta, a control deck really needs to have playable maindeck Artifact and Enchantment removal. There's so much Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, Batterskull, Cranial Plating, Spellskite, Ensnaring Bridge, Thopter/Foundry in addition to combo decks like Ad Nauseam relying on mana rocks going around these days since the meta has slowed that I'm finding not having a maindeck way to deal with stuff like this has been a bit of a bane.
What better way to deal with that kind of stuff than Kolaghan's Command and Esper Charm? Cool thing is, both K-Command and Charm provide big card advantage in every match up if their not being used to smash Artifacts/Enchantments as well as giving you the option of going down a draw step soft lock by harassing the opponents hand with instant speed discard which is excellent against combo decks too. Remand also works great in testing so that you "time walk" them, draw a card, then use Esper Charm on their draw step to discard whatever they tried to play, as well as the new card they drew.
I still think Lightning Helix is a must if you don't want to give up your burn/zoo match ups and Lightning Bolt is too important for turn 1 Birds, Hierarchs, Delvers so you don't fall too behind on tempo. They also are pretty solid win conditions too with 4 Snapcaster Mage.
Here's my latest "Dark Jeskai" list. It's basically a no win condition draw go deck featuring most of the shell of Shaun Mclaren's UWR draw-go list of the past but adding Black for K-Command and Esper Charm to give me outs against Blood Moon/Chalice and other nasty stuff that I usually wouldn't be able to deal pre-board. I actually am considering testing Nahiri, the Harbinger in this kind of shell but I'm not sure if it will be as good as straight UWR.
It looks quite unique. I can't really comment too much on your card choices as your line of thinking is similar yet on a different wave-length than mine and it looks as though you built your deck with the Black card like Fatal Push instead of more Bolts in mind. I could maybe really only suggest that I think Esper Charm is better than Ancestral Vision since your playing White in your deck. It works amazingly with Snapcaster Mage and is always a fairly good top deck.
Other than that, the only real problematic thing I see in your deck is that you are playing 11+ 4cmc drops in addition to 3 Ancestral Vision which is also a very slow card. This is a very dangerous amount of potential dead cards and I can predict you drawing the "wrong half" of your deck semi-often. You're also only playing 24 lands too which IMO is a little too low to support 11 high end cards consistently. I'd look at either upping your land count to 26 to justify that kind of high end curve, or (probably the better option,) cutting some of your high end cards for cheaper stuff so your deck will play out smoother. I think changing Ancestral Vision to Esper Charm could be a good start. Also, playing a colourless land in Desolate Lighthouse will cause awkwardness since you're needing to hit 4 colours. This is just one reason why I suspect straight UWR is the better Nahiri deck. Sideboard-wise, I'm a bit confused on the 4 Leyline of Sanctity unless I'm missing some sort of combo here, is it Saheeli? I also think you should find room for a couple Engineered Explosives since decks like Merfolk will be attempting to Spreading Seas your 4 colour mana base. EE is very good in 4 colour since you can charge it to X=4 which can be versatile in even more match ups.
I can't find Jeskai Nahiri under Tier 2 in the latest metagame report. Only about half of the Jeskai Control lists in the data sets run Nahiri. Putting Jeskai Nahiri at a roughly 1% metagame share which is far from Tier 2.
Yes, it seems like ModernNexus just aggregated all of the Jeskai Control variants (draw-go, flash, Nahiri, Saheeli) into one category. Obviously this means that (1) no individual (sub-)archetype is doing that well, and (2) Jeskai players don't have a consensus on which build is the most effective.
I can't find Jeskai Nahiri under Tier 2 in the latest metagame report. Only about half of the Jeskai Control lists in the data sets run Nahiri. Putting Jeskai Nahiri at a roughly 1% metagame share which is far from Tier 2.
Yes, it seems like ModernNexus just aggregated all of the Jeskai Control variants (draw-go, flash, Nahiri, Saheeli) into one category. Obviously this means that (1) no individual (sub-)archetype is doing that well, and (2) Jeskai players don't have a consensus on which build is the most effective.
Since this Nahiri thread "lives" on other cobtrol variants, does that mean we can discuss other non-Nahiri builds too?
I think we can. The mods and some volunteers are looking to make it that way(?). Idk.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I can't find Jeskai Nahiri under Tier 2 in the latest metagame report. Only about half of the Jeskai Control lists in the data sets run Nahiri. Putting Jeskai Nahiri at a roughly 1% metagame share which is far from Tier 2.
Yes, it seems like ModernNexus just aggregated all of the Jeskai Control variants (draw-go, flash, Nahiri, Saheeli) into one category. Obviously this means that (1) no individual (sub-)archetype is doing that well, and (2) Jeskai players don't have a consensus on which build is the most effective.
Since this Nahiri thread "lives" on other cobtrol variants, does that mean we can discuss other non-Nahiri builds too?
It's unclear. I was working on a non-Nahiri Jeskai primer, but got busy with some other life events. Later today (hopefully) I'll message Sheridan (ktkkenshin) and see whether we should just have a 'Jeskai Control' primer that has some discussion of each build in the primer itself, and then allows for that discussion in the thread as well.
After months on the deck and various different builds, taking me to day 2 at gp brisbane before hitting a lack of land rut. This is what I feel the optimal jeskai nahiri list is
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 vendillion clique
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri the harbinger
2 cryptic command
1 anger of the gods
1 electrolyze
2 mana leak
3 remand
3 lightning helix
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
4 serum visions
2 spell snare
That's true, but in what scenarios would you prefer to Roast over Condemn? I feel like lots of creatures in Modern don't really 'stay dead', whereas exiling or bottoming them is more 'permanent' removal. And if the goal is to -15 & Annihilator 6 the opponent, giving them 4-10 life isn't such a big deal.
Obviously Condemn wouldn't work very well in a Jeskai Flash deck, for instance, but for a control deck with a 'non-traditional' win condition, it seems pretty strong.
I like Condemn specifically against Death's Shadow decks and EldraziTron. Beyond those matches though, I'm not sure where I would want it. That's why I like Roast for the slots you have Blessed Alliance in right now. It answers "most" Tarmogoyfs and random things like Siege Rhino. I don't know. I just like being flexible, and right now, I don't have an issue with Death's Shadow with my flash-control deck. I haven't been able to test against it with Nahiri though. All that said, I still think I would run it in the sideboard.
Except that it's actually four mana if you want to view Blessed Alliance as a removal spell and life gain. That's just too much for me.
Agree. gaining 4 is worth at least 1 of their cards, and being Snapcasterable is nice too if you get to play your 4th land. Also, Blessed Alliance is good against the almost extinct Infect and Bogles.
Right. For just 4 life. If you want to use as a removal spell as well, that requires you escalate it. It's rare that there will be no creatures involved so that's what I'm talking about. Even against non-Burn decks, the sacrifice effect doesn't always feel very good.
I bring in Blessed Alliance against any deck that often just has one big threat; Eldrazi decks, jund (death shadow and otherwise) and infect. Depending on my exact list, I also bring BA in against affinity and merfolk and the like, where it's obviously a tad mediocre but I just want more removal spells and it can occasionally save me from an Etched Champion. And finally burn of course
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/jeskai_saheeli_with_max_dressl.html
My initial thoughts are to side out the combo, but Terminate will be free to hit Colonnades, which would be my only win con after siding those out (short of burn and Snappy beats). I haven't played Blue Control based decks in a long time, so I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I personally have no idea about playing the Jeskai Saheeli, but my initial thinking is that you should keep your combo in against Grixis Delver. Cut -1 Jace, AoT, -1 Nahiri, -2 Wall of Omens and -1 Remand to add +2 Negate and +3 Dispel against Grixis Delver. I think you have to go all in on the combo and grind them out. Delver should be easy enough to kill. All the Grixis variants have issues dealing with planeswalkers on the board so you just have to weather the storm and try to clean up as soon as possible. I'm not sure if Spreading Seas is good enough against them.
Against Burn, I would probably makes these substitutions after going to sideboard: -1 Nahiri, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 Path to Exile for +2 Negate, +3 Dispel and +1 Lightning Helix. Path to Exile + Spreading Seas seems like a non-bo to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Otherwise, Wall of Omens and Felidar Guardian wall it up until you Snap + Bolt them out of the game or combo them out. I'm not sure how viable Saheeli Rai is against Burn but I feel like it can be back-breaking if you play it late. Her +1 ability is worth a lot against Burn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm thinking the same, I've been testing a 4 colour list for the past 3 months. It started out as a 4c Cruel Ultimatum list but after a bunch of testing I
ve realised there's too much Blood Moon going around for it to be truly competitive. What I've also noticed in testing is that in this current meta, a control deck really needs to have playable maindeck Artifact and Enchantment removal. There's so much Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, Batterskull, Cranial Plating, Spellskite, Ensnaring Bridge, Thopter/Foundry in addition to combo decks like Ad Nauseam relying on mana rocks going around these days since the meta has slowed that I'm finding not having a maindeck way to deal with stuff like this has been a bit of a bane.
What better way to deal with that kind of stuff than Kolaghan's Command and Esper Charm? Cool thing is, both K-Command and Charm provide big card advantage in every match up if their not being used to smash Artifacts/Enchantments as well as giving you the option of going down a draw step soft lock by harassing the opponents hand with instant speed discard which is excellent against combo decks too. Remand also works great in testing so that you "time walk" them, draw a card, then use Esper Charm on their draw step to discard whatever they tried to play, as well as the new card they drew.
I still think Lightning Helix is a must if you don't want to give up your burn/zoo match ups and Lightning Bolt is too important for turn 1 Birds, Hierarchs, Delvers so you don't fall too behind on tempo. They also are pretty solid win conditions too with 4 Snapcaster Mage.
Here's my latest "Dark Jeskai" list. It's basically a no win condition draw go deck featuring most of the shell of Shaun Mclaren's UWR draw-go list of the past but adding Black for K-Command and Esper Charm to give me outs against Blood Moon/Chalice and other nasty stuff that I usually wouldn't be able to deal pre-board. I actually am considering testing Nahiri, the Harbinger in this kind of shell but I'm not sure if it will be as good as straight UWR.
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants: 29
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
4 Esper Charm
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Cryptic Command
2 Sphinx's Revelation
Sorceries: 1
1 Merciless Eviction
4 Rest in Peace
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroclasm
1 Planeswalker when siding in Rest in Peace, looking at Ashiok specifically for high life gain decks
2 Flex Slots
As for your list:
It looks quite unique. I can't really comment too much on your card choices as your line of thinking is similar yet on a different wave-length than mine and it looks as though you built your deck with the Black card like Fatal Push instead of more Bolts in mind. I could maybe really only suggest that I think Esper Charm is better than Ancestral Vision since your playing White in your deck. It works amazingly with Snapcaster Mage and is always a fairly good top deck.
Other than that, the only real problematic thing I see in your deck is that you are playing 11+ 4cmc drops in addition to 3 Ancestral Vision which is also a very slow card. This is a very dangerous amount of potential dead cards and I can predict you drawing the "wrong half" of your deck semi-often. You're also only playing 24 lands too which IMO is a little too low to support 11 high end cards consistently. I'd look at either upping your land count to 26 to justify that kind of high end curve, or (probably the better option,) cutting some of your high end cards for cheaper stuff so your deck will play out smoother. I think changing Ancestral Vision to Esper Charm could be a good start. Also, playing a colourless land in Desolate Lighthouse will cause awkwardness since you're needing to hit 4 colours. This is just one reason why I suspect straight UWR is the better Nahiri deck. Sideboard-wise, I'm a bit confused on the 4 Leyline of Sanctity unless I'm missing some sort of combo here, is it Saheeli? I also think you should find room for a couple Engineered Explosives since decks like Merfolk will be attempting to Spreading Seas your 4 colour mana base. EE is very good in 4 colour since you can charge it to X=4 which can be versatile in even more match ups.
Yes, it seems like ModernNexus just aggregated all of the Jeskai Control variants (draw-go, flash, Nahiri, Saheeli) into one category. Obviously this means that (1) no individual (sub-)archetype is doing that well, and (2) Jeskai players don't have a consensus on which build is the most effective.
I think we can. The mods and some volunteers are looking to make it that way(?). Idk.
It's unclear. I was working on a non-Nahiri Jeskai primer, but got busy with some other life events. Later today (hopefully) I'll message Sheridan (ktkkenshin) and see whether we should just have a 'Jeskai Control' primer that has some discussion of each build in the primer itself, and then allows for that discussion in the thread as well.
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 vendillion clique
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri the harbinger
2 cryptic command
1 anger of the gods
1 electrolyze
2 mana leak
3 remand
3 lightning helix
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
4 serum visions
2 spell snare
1 mountain
1 plains
3 island
1 sacred foundry
2 hallowed fountain
2 steam vents
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
3 celestial colonnade
2 sulfur falls
1 desolate lighthouse
Sideboard
1 engineered explosives
1 dispel
1 wear / tear
1 negate
1 celestial purge
1 blessed alliance
1 anger of the gods
1 wrath of God
2 stony silence
2 crumble to dust
3 geist of saint traft