Jeskai kiki got first in a GP. In all seriousness, the downfall of jeskai in modern was closing off the old uwr thread for a thread that only allows nahiri talk. This thread was a mistake but everyone jumped on the hype train thinking this deck solved jeskai
The mods were the ones who insisted for this to be exclusively Nahiri to better organize results. We were not allowed to make this a general jeskai control thread without getting demoted to deck creation. Now we're in developing competitive anyways, I'd really rather just have this merged with the general control thread. Keeping the old jeskai control primer open also wasn't an option as it was horribly outdated and the person who wrote it didn't come to mtgs anymore.
I prefer that the threads are separate, so that discussion of each deck is not muddled by discussion of the other. Yes, they're similar, but (in my opinion) are distinct enough to merit separate threads. It gets confusing to track the discussion when half the people are talking about different decks. At any rate, I'm working on a general Jeskai Control/Flash primer, since currently there are only primers/threads for Jeskai Harbinger and Jeskai Midrange/Geist. Hopefully I'll be able to finish that soon.
i guess this thread will just be entirely dead then
Only as dead as the deck itself. And before this last round of introspection / reevaluation that you and I started (and has since devolved a bit), it was dead anyway, with only a handful of placing finished for the deck in any published results lists in half a year or so. But I have hopes that people cleverer than I will figure out the right way to approach the deck (even if it's just the same) and there will be some resurgence at some point soon.
I'm working on a primer so that there's actually a place to discuss the Control/Flash builds (I still don't understand why the old thread had to be closed, but whatever), but plan to follow and contribute to both discussions. I don't get to play very often, and have been devoting more time to Legacy lately, but if I'm playing Modern it's 98% that I'm on one form of Jeskai (though I have to say the UR Gifts Storm decks look pretty fun; too bad I'm missing ~$100 worth of cards...), and I do really like this deck. I just want to create an actual space for discussion of other builds, and probably experiment with them myself to see how they feel in practice, since Jeskai Harbinger is the only form of Jeskai Control I've ever actually played in person so far.
Please keep the conversation on the cards and not each other. Please also report any posts that aren't about magic and about people, so I can act on them accordingly.
This thread was temporarily deleted by a user and is now under staff control. We will alert the thread if this changes, but for now, just carry on the discussion.
If a singleton ends up being playable against the field I think we should definitely main 1 of them. It's not a great card, and it's barely good enough for me to consider it, but perhaps it's versatile enough to be worth running. Being able to randomly screw planeswalker abilities is really strong.
At the request of the OP, I have deleted the thread's primer. The thread will still be open until it finds a new primer owner. If you are interested in owning and managing the Jeskai Harbinger primer, please PM me and the other Modern mods and we can talk through next steps. Thank you!
So on topic: what about Disallow as one or two- off? In my experience, i sometimes just mis the versatility to grind out a win. Disallow can be usefull against Tron (Emrakul's ability, resolved Karn, Oblivion stone, Spirit dragon) Affinity (countering arcbounds ability), Fullminator mage, The mirror (Nahiri's ultimate), or just counter a fetch.
Your thoughts?
I think that if we're looking for versatility and grinding ability, Cryptic Command is the way to go. Disallow does nothing against Liliana's +1 (saves opponent a card), and sure, it stops her -6, but so does Celestial Purge or Cryptic Command bouncing her, and both of these have more utility. I'm not sure what other planeswalker abilities we're really concerned about. Disallow lets us counter an on-cast trigger from Worldbreaker, but it's not Summary Dismissal, so we still have to kill/exile the creature. Like ax92 says, if Disallow had been, e.g., UUU Choose two: counter, stifle, draw, then I think it would be playable, but right now I'm not seeing it.
I am still wondering if we might be better served cutting Ancestral Vision. Between drawing Emrakul, excess copies of Nahiri, and mid-/late-game Ancestral Visions, the current build of the deck has quite a few dead draws (or at least potentially dead draws). Yes, Nahiri can filter away dead draws, but it feels like we're asking a lot of the deck: AV by turn 2 (maybe 3), Nahiri on turn 4/5, and the ability to protect Nahiri so that she can at least survive to filter our draws a bit. If those things don't happen, it seems like the deck can get pretty clunky.
We can't overload on 3 and 4 drops, but I'm still interested in testing a list like this (and currently deciding whether to test this or a Flash build for comparison next time I play; work got in the way this week):
At the request of the OP, I have deleted the thread's primer. The thread will still be open until it finds a new primer owner. If you are interested in owning and managing the Jeskai Harbinger primer, please PM me and the other Modern mods and we can talk through next steps. Thank you!
As permitted by OP, the primer has been reverted to its original form, but still in staff hands. Staff will update the thread after we decide about next steps for the primer and the strategy generally.
I've gotten frustrated with the state of the thread, and originally intended to delete it. ktkenshinx changed my mind, and they will be looking to hand off the thread to someone else
Seems like a cool enough deck. I just utterly crushed some poor guys soul on MTGO with it, just playing the tempo/burn game and looping some Cryptic/Snaps.
Not sure if my build is right or not, I just threw it together with my favorite UR stuff + Condemn (I despise Path, just hate the ramp it gives people), and the Nehiri package for the white splash.
Let me know what you think, and if there is any interest in the thread, I dont know maybe I can post it up not sure how people take over Primers. :]
If they are taking this time to make some changes, I do strongly feel that non-nahiri talk should be allowed here.
Nahiri has fallen in standings enough that its no longer clear that nahiri is the best, or even the most popular, take on the deck.
Well, I had been working on a Jeskai Control (non-Nahiri) primer, but would be happy to adapt it into a general-purpose Jeskai Control primer if the consensus is to have all builds of Jeskai Control (Draw-Go, Flash, Nahiri) under the same thread. I see merit to both approaches. I do think we have to draw the line somewhere, though, and the Geist/Midrange and CopyCat builds should probably remain as separate threads. I'm not the most knowledgeable, but I can write words, incorporate suggestions, and promise I won't delete the primer & associated thread. I'm a bit busy at work at the moment, so there may be a bit of a delay. Offer's on the table.
Can you provide an example of each of the builds you are talking about?
I dont know, a question to the Mods maybe, but to me, you could easily incorporate every URW build into the same thread, there is a similar core of spells I would imagine, with the finisher package being the only difference.
You could also just go
Control (Draw Go, Flash?)
Combo (Nahiri/Resto/Kiki and Cat?)
How many Bolt, Helix, Snaps, build differences are there really.
To get back to talking about the deck, I might commit heresy and play only 3 Lightning Bolts. I'm already on 2 helix, but there are so many decks right now built to be mostly bolt-proof and I often find myself cutting some. 3 Bolt, 2 Helix and 2 Blessed Alliance main frees up valuable sideboard space
@Leaky Mana: I think it'd be best if you made that offer to the mods via PM than here IMO. But nice to see someone step up.
Also, I think Geist/Midrange is fine in its own thread. They seem happy over there as it is. I used to frequent that one a lot more when I used to play Geist non-stop. They're doing alright. And GreatNate makes some nice content for the thread/Youtube/reddit. It's good to see.
As for Copy Cat, I'm unaware of a thread for that. But of course, I don't peruse these forums nearly as much anymore. I just go to the threads that I'm already subscribed to most of the time.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
To get back to talking about the deck, I might commit heresy and play only 3 Lightning Bolts. I'm already on 2 helix, but there are so many decks right now built to be mostly bolt-proof and I often find myself cutting some. 3 Bolt, 2 Helix and 2 Blessed Alliance main frees up valuable sideboard space
I think I've seen that occasionally. I've seen like 3 Bolt, 2 Path builds before. Usually alongside a couple Think Twices and other niche tech choices. It's crazy stuff only the likes of Shaun McClauren and his ilk would dare try.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Some of the wafo draw-go lists played 4 path, 2 bolt, X electrolyze, X supreme verdict, with some helix/bolts in the sideboard, sometimes.
TBH, if I were to play a 24 land nahiri list, something like:
might work out alright.
You're much, much more reliant on winning with nahiri (I might not even play any colonnades, but certainly no more than 2) because you have so little burn, but it doesn't really seem better.
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I prefer that the threads are separate, so that discussion of each deck is not muddled by discussion of the other. Yes, they're similar, but (in my opinion) are distinct enough to merit separate threads. It gets confusing to track the discussion when half the people are talking about different decks. At any rate, I'm working on a general Jeskai Control/Flash primer, since currently there are only primers/threads for Jeskai Harbinger and Jeskai Midrange/Geist. Hopefully I'll be able to finish that soon.
Only as dead as the deck itself. And before this last round of introspection / reevaluation that you and I started (and has since devolved a bit), it was dead anyway, with only a handful of placing finished for the deck in any published results lists in half a year or so. But I have hopes that people cleverer than I will figure out the right way to approach the deck (even if it's just the same) and there will be some resurgence at some point soon.
I'm working on a primer so that there's actually a place to discuss the Control/Flash builds (I still don't understand why the old thread had to be closed, but whatever), but plan to follow and contribute to both discussions. I don't get to play very often, and have been devoting more time to Legacy lately, but if I'm playing Modern it's 98% that I'm on one form of Jeskai (though I have to say the UR Gifts Storm decks look pretty fun; too bad I'm missing ~$100 worth of cards...), and I do really like this deck. I just want to create an actual space for discussion of other builds, and probably experiment with them myself to see how they feel in practice, since Jeskai Harbinger is the only form of Jeskai Control I've ever actually played in person so far.
This thread was temporarily deleted by a user and is now under staff control. We will alert the thread if this changes, but for now, just carry on the discussion.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I think that if we're looking for versatility and grinding ability, Cryptic Command is the way to go. Disallow does nothing against Liliana's +1 (saves opponent a card), and sure, it stops her -6, but so does Celestial Purge or Cryptic Command bouncing her, and both of these have more utility. I'm not sure what other planeswalker abilities we're really concerned about. Disallow lets us counter an on-cast trigger from Worldbreaker, but it's not Summary Dismissal, so we still have to kill/exile the creature. Like ax92 says, if Disallow had been, e.g., UUU Choose two: counter, stifle, draw, then I think it would be playable, but right now I'm not seeing it.
I am still wondering if we might be better served cutting Ancestral Vision. Between drawing Emrakul, excess copies of Nahiri, and mid-/late-game Ancestral Visions, the current build of the deck has quite a few dead draws (or at least potentially dead draws). Yes, Nahiri can filter away dead draws, but it feels like we're asking a lot of the deck: AV by turn 2 (maybe 3), Nahiri on turn 4/5, and the ability to protect Nahiri so that she can at least survive to filter our draws a bit. If those things don't happen, it seems like the deck can get pretty clunky.
We can't overload on 3 and 4 drops, but I'm still interested in testing a list like this (and currently deciding whether to test this or a Flash build for comparison next time I play; work got in the way this week):
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (6)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Instants (22)
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Negate
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
Sorceries (5)
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancestral Vision
2 Celestial Purge
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
As permitted by OP, the primer has been reverted to its original form, but still in staff hands. Staff will update the thread after we decide about next steps for the primer and the strategy generally.
Spirits
Not sure if my build is right or not, I just threw it together with my favorite UR stuff + Condemn (I despise Path, just hate the ramp it gives people), and the Nehiri package for the white splash.
Let me know what you think, and if there is any interest in the thread, I dont know maybe I can post it up not sure how people take over Primers. :]
Side is WIP, but main looks solid at a glance, .
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Wandering Fumarole
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Serum Visions
4 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
1 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
2 Spell Snare
//Nahiri Package
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
//Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
//Removal
4 Condemn
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Dispel
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rest in Peace
Spirits
Nahiri has fallen in standings enough that its no longer clear that nahiri is the best, or even the most popular, take on the deck.
Or are you proposing this would just be a singular URW thread for all the various strategies (Copy Cat?)
Spirits
I dont know, a question to the Mods maybe, but to me, you could easily incorporate every URW build into the same thread, there is a similar core of spells I would imagine, with the finisher package being the only difference.
You could also just go
Control (Draw Go, Flash?)
Combo (Nahiri/Resto/Kiki and Cat?)
How many Bolt, Helix, Snaps, build differences are there really.
Spirits
Also, I think Geist/Midrange is fine in its own thread. They seem happy over there as it is. I used to frequent that one a lot more when I used to play Geist non-stop. They're doing alright. And GreatNate makes some nice content for the thread/Youtube/reddit. It's good to see.
As for Copy Cat, I'm unaware of a thread for that. But of course, I don't peruse these forums nearly as much anymore. I just go to the threads that I'm already subscribed to most of the time.
I think I've seen that occasionally. I've seen like 3 Bolt, 2 Path builds before. Usually alongside a couple Think Twices and other niche tech choices. It's crazy stuff only the likes of Shaun McClauren and his ilk would dare try.
TBH, if I were to play a 24 land nahiri list, something like:
2 supreme verdict
4 path to exile
2 lightning bolt
3 remand
3 mana leak
2 cryptic command
4 serum visions
3 ancestral visions
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri, the harbinger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
might work out alright.
You're much, much more reliant on winning with nahiri (I might not even play any colonnades, but certainly no more than 2) because you have so little burn, but it doesn't really seem better.