@Aruban The Turn 1 play where you shock on the draw and Mana Tithe the Kitchen Finks is great! I can see exactly why you love the card haha. Keen to try a cheeky one of in my deck
LOL, I love your opponents reaction: "Well, that was unexpected".
Sometimes I consider a fun-of Mana Tithe, but I always want to play spell snare and dispel over it. I guess if I wanted a 5th 1cmc counter, it would have to convince me over the more narrow yet much better lategame Spell Pierce. I'm not sure that I care about kitchen finks resolving turn 2/3 - cranial plating on the other hand...
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
the only cards i really want to counter with mana tithe are dark confidant, eidolon of great reveal, affinity things (ravager, cranial plating)...so is a worst spell snare.
spell snare dead card in the long game? snapcaster? counter wars (remand)? tarmo, etc? the only MU where spell snare is a dead card is against living end.
Spell snare is the 1cc spell in this deck, i could see mana tithe in another deck (i love the full art version), but all proven decklist run spell snare over mana tithe for a reason, its better!
right now i feel UW "more control" decklist (less creatures) seem a worse jeskai nahiri to me, anyone have the same feeling?
right now i feel UW "more control" decklist (less creatures) seem a worse jeskai nahiri to me, anyone have the same feeling?
I've been grappling with this question. I think the biggest bonus we get from not running red is that our manabase is less costly in terms of life, and we get to play 4 ghost quarter to address tron / valakut. Another benefit is that in non-aggro matchups, we don't have our maindeck filled with a bunch of blanks -which Lightning Bolt / Lightning Helix can feel like against decks like tron, storm, ad nauseam, etc. Verdict can be dead as well, but is much better against all the linear aggro decks like merfolk, zoo, etc.
That being said, my own win-con (Myth Realized) was kind of embarrassed by Nahiri, the Harbinger (that -2 is crazy) in the last event I played at. I felt like I should have been at an advantage in the mirror, but Supreme Verdict ends up being even more dead than bolt in the matchup.
UWR control has been the only matchup I haven't been able to crack yet for my own build, so it has me wondering if I shouldn't just convert. This may yet happen if I can't improve the deck with Thing in the Ice to supplement myth realized. Work in progress.
Bluesfan2: at least pre nahiri i was playing elspeth/gideon as finisher (since both can be used to defend or win the game), but nahiri perform better than both. To me esper was a worst UW control, because UWx already as good CA and mid/late game, early game B dont add much and the cost of life/blood moon aspect dont make esper charm worthly, i DO try B splash (tasigur/blood baron/ashiok as finisher in side) and R splash (keranos, crumble the dust SB again) and all version seems worst UWR nahiri at the moment.
wpgstevo: the red splash life is somewhat neutered because of lightning helix, and the 3 life (fetch+shock) that able t1 removal (bolt) often outweight the potential life loss (a uncheck goblin guide for example). Ghost Quarter without heavy pressure (that more controllish/less creature version lacks) are often not enought to win, and crumble to dust/blood moon is better in the SB to deal with lands deck.
Nahiri does to UWx control what Twin do to URx, every deck ends asking "Why i dont play nahiri/twin over this?"
If this archtype is alive (UW plain) in the future i only see as a UW creature heavy control deck (finks, resto, etc), because running 4 snapcaster beg for lightning bolt, and nahiri is better wincon than other planeswalkers (in power level they are similar, but the 4cc against 5cc or 6cc is a deal breaker).
I could be wrong after all, but in my testing i always keep saying "better play nahiri jeskai" over this (i insist, in the more control/less creature build). i think i will be playing something with a lot of creatures+ couple of hard counters (spell snare+cryptic main, dispel/negate SB) and see how that goes.
wpgstevo: the red splash life is somewhat neutered because of lightning helix, and the 3 life (fetch+shock) that able t1 removal (bolt) often outweight the potential life loss (a uncheck goblin guide for example). Ghost Quarter without heavy pressure (that more controllish/less creature version lacks) are often not enought to win, and crumble to dust/blood moon is better in the SB to deal with lands deck.
I completely disagree about crumble to dust/blood moon answering tron better. Tron's strongest draws, turn 3 tron, is what makes the matchup difficult. Especially on the draw, crumble to dust and blood moon are both just too slow. They are stronger late game, but they have zero game against the strongest draws from tron. Ghost quarter is a more flexible answer (random cavern of souls etc that need to be answered maindeck) that works all game long, at the cost of not shutting the door later as hard as the red options. I prefer GQ.
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I don't really like Jace in these lists. You are really only recasting path and supreme verdict with him. He does nothing with your counters and condemn. I'd replace him with some sort of card draw like ancestral vision, serum visions or think twice.
This looks just like the lists that started to pick up when eldrazi was the main threat.
I ran U/W Control at my last Modern event with 20 guys.
Played against 2x Bant Eldrazi, Bushwacker Zoo and Infect. Ended up annihilating the Zoo deck and found all my answers against Bant Eldrazi and never lost a game. Infect had me on the edge of my seat but Dismembers and Spellskites out of the sideboard helped me 4-0 the FNM.
I think this deck is fantastic and don't see why more people don't play it.
4 Snapcaster
2 Wall of Omen
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Resto Angel
1 Baneslayer
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Path to Exile
3 Dsphere
2 Dismember
2 Cryptic Command
1 Day of Judgement
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Fortress
7 Island
3 Plains
SB: * 2 Kor Firewalker * 2 Negate * 2 Spellskite * 2 Stony Silence * 1 Dsphere * 2 Timely Reinforcement * 2 Leyline of Sanctity * 2 Felidar Cub
Icedtino- I think this build you have here was incredible against the Eldrazi menace but without creature pressure (Cliques, Restos, Finks) gets blown out by the rest of the creature based decks.
These are cards that you generally want to be flashing back on the opponents turn though and Jace can't do that. Cryptic and Ojutai's command on your turn is rather lackluster since you can pretty much eliminate counter target spel from the options and as a control deck tap all of opponents creatures on your turn isn't that spectacular either. Also, spending 4 mana on those spells ok your turn isn't ideal.
It's true that you can flash them back with Jace, I just don't think it's powerful enough to keep Jace in the list. But I agree with you about adding some number of spells snare, cutting a snapcaster or two and I think trying to fit in some type of cantrip.
Just a question, have any of you tried splashing green just for Mayor of Avabruck in a draw go version ?
I experimented with it in the weekend and it wrecked opponents by himself if they didn't deal with it. I thought I'd put it out there since it was actually rather impressive.
Even when (because at a certain point you WILL flip it back with snapcaster + flashback), beating in with a pumped Snappy felt great
3 Dragons isn't enough to support Silumgar's Scorn. If you take a look at standard decks, the ones using Scorn and Draconic Roar are generally running at least 8 dragons. Also, Confirm Suspicions should just be Cryptic Command. Command draws you two less cards, but costs 1 less mana and the other modes on the card are very relevant. I would turn the 4 Scorn and 1 Confirm in to 2 Cryptic Command and 3 Spell Snare.
Note that he is also using mutavault to turn scorn into cancel - which is better than just 3 dragons to turn it on. That being said, scorn has not seen wide success since its release because cancel just isn't good enough, and there isn't a real consistent way to turn it on otherwise.
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Modern Decks
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I guess I missed using Mutavault to turn on scorn, but Mutavault won't trigger it from your hand which may lead to some awkward mana drops when you are torn between getting down colored mana vs turning on your Silumgar's Scorn. Using Mutavault to turn on Scorn also exposes you to getting stone rained if the opponent has any sort of instant speed removal. This could lead to a major blow out where you lose your land and your Scorn gets turned in to a Force Spike.
You mention using Serum Visions to up your chances of turning Scorn on early, but that will incentivize you to scry a Dragon to the top early when you may need to make a land drop or find a Path to Exile. I just feel like Scorn will lead in to some awkward plays.
guys made a 3-2 mtgo competitive league just now, pretty happy since i always go negative record (1-4 or 0-5) when begin to test/adapt control.
short report:
W grixis delver
W kiki chord
L Burn
L Bant Eldrazi
W Jeskai Nahari
i really dont know if this 75 are the right ones (spoiler: no) but i do believe that this creature/tapped out control is were the archtype should move (for flash control play nahiri jeskai instead XD) spreading seas is amazing i lock out the kiki player from mana one game (between wrath the birds and seas the lands), every match could be won/lost and i made a lot of mistakes, i really thing this deck could 5-0 in the future (i could win the eldrazi match, not the burn one, but the burn player had the NUTS draw both game, but this deck is favorable against burn, and i know that since i play burn too XD), but i dont have a lot of time to playtest (i take a day off from work today XD).
Summary: creatures+permanent cantrip+hard counter+hard removal = UW control formula.
if anyone is blind, i encourage to begin with this 75 and move foward.
Popping over from the Esper Draw Go forum to remind you guys Vendilion Clique is the best blue creature in modern and solves sooooooo many problems. Just here to preach the good news, carry on.
Summary: creatures+permanent cantrip+hard counter+hard removal = UW control formula.
I like the approach and agree with most you said, was also opting Spreading sea's main. I would only play crucible of worlds in the sideboard to really go all out on land control for certain matchups and think Sun Titan has more synergy than Elspeth for the six drop?
crucible was/is the 16 SB slot haha, at the end when crucible is good (grindy match like tron for example) you are the aggro player most of the cases, so the control approach in those match dont fit very well, thats why i cut it/left out for other options, but if meta change i could bring back the crucible. At the end spreading seas is more tempo, beat with finks while seas buy time.
Elspeth is amazing, selective wrath (our creatures have less than 4 force!), infinite tokens for damage/chumpblock and ultimate that have a way out against stall games (i one beat a martyc proc player at something like 300 life) and is a lot of value. I love Sun titan and have a place in my hearth (and in my deck before elspeth XD), but elspeth is the best 6cc PW ever printed IMHO, and one of the best 6 drop a control player could hope (stabilize, win con, chumpblock, etc).
@Aruban The Turn 1 play where you shock on the draw and Mana Tithe the Kitchen Finks is great! I can see exactly why you love the card haha. Keen to try a cheeky one of in my deck
LOL, I love your opponents reaction: "Well, that was unexpected".
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
spell snare dead card in the long game? snapcaster? counter wars (remand)? tarmo, etc? the only MU where spell snare is a dead card is against living end.
Spell snare is the 1cc spell in this deck, i could see mana tithe in another deck (i love the full art version), but all proven decklist run spell snare over mana tithe for a reason, its better!
right now i feel UW "more control" decklist (less creatures) seem a worse jeskai nahiri to me, anyone have the same feeling?
I've been grappling with this question. I think the biggest bonus we get from not running red is that our manabase is less costly in terms of life, and we get to play 4 ghost quarter to address tron / valakut. Another benefit is that in non-aggro matchups, we don't have our maindeck filled with a bunch of blanks -which Lightning Bolt / Lightning Helix can feel like against decks like tron, storm, ad nauseam, etc. Verdict can be dead as well, but is much better against all the linear aggro decks like merfolk, zoo, etc.
That being said, my own win-con (Myth Realized) was kind of embarrassed by Nahiri, the Harbinger (that -2 is crazy) in the last event I played at. I felt like I should have been at an advantage in the mirror, but Supreme Verdict ends up being even more dead than bolt in the matchup.
UWR control has been the only matchup I haven't been able to crack yet for my own build, so it has me wondering if I shouldn't just convert. This may yet happen if I can't improve the deck with Thing in the Ice to supplement myth realized. Work in progress.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
wpgstevo: the red splash life is somewhat neutered because of lightning helix, and the 3 life (fetch+shock) that able t1 removal (bolt) often outweight the potential life loss (a uncheck goblin guide for example). Ghost Quarter without heavy pressure (that more controllish/less creature version lacks) are often not enought to win, and crumble to dust/blood moon is better in the SB to deal with lands deck.
Nahiri does to UWx control what Twin do to URx, every deck ends asking "Why i dont play nahiri/twin over this?"
If this archtype is alive (UW plain) in the future i only see as a UW creature heavy control deck (finks, resto, etc), because running 4 snapcaster beg for lightning bolt, and nahiri is better wincon than other planeswalkers (in power level they are similar, but the 4cc against 5cc or 6cc is a deal breaker).
I could be wrong after all, but in my testing i always keep saying "better play nahiri jeskai" over this (i insist, in the more control/less creature build). i think i will be playing something with a lot of creatures+ couple of hard counters (spell snare+cryptic main, dispel/negate SB) and see how that goes.
I completely disagree about crumble to dust/blood moon answering tron better. Tron's strongest draws, turn 3 tron, is what makes the matchup difficult. Especially on the draw, crumble to dust and blood moon are both just too slow. They are stronger late game, but they have zero game against the strongest draws from tron. Ghost quarter is a more flexible answer (random cavern of souls etc that need to be answered maindeck) that works all game long, at the cost of not shutting the door later as hard as the red options. I prefer GQ.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
any suggestions are welcome
4x Flooded Strand
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Detention Sphere
2x Condemn
3x Cryptic Command
4x Mana Leak
2x Ojutai's Command
4x Path to Exile
1x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Wall of Omens
4x Supreme Verdict
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gideon Jura
2x Disenchant
3x Dispel
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
3x Negate
1x Rule of Law
2x Stony Silence
2x Vendilion Clique
This looks just like the lists that started to pick up when eldrazi was the main threat.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Played against 2x Bant Eldrazi, Bushwacker Zoo and Infect. Ended up annihilating the Zoo deck and found all my answers against Bant Eldrazi and never lost a game. Infect had me on the edge of my seat but Dismembers and Spellskites out of the sideboard helped me 4-0 the FNM.
I think this deck is fantastic and don't see why more people don't play it.
4 Snapcaster
2 Wall of Omen
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Resto Angel
1 Baneslayer
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Path to Exile
3 Dsphere
2 Dismember
2 Cryptic Command
1 Day of Judgement
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Fortress
7 Island
3 Plains
SB: * 2 Kor Firewalker * 2 Negate * 2 Spellskite * 2 Stony Silence * 1 Dsphere * 2 Timely Reinforcement * 2 Leyline of Sanctity * 2 Felidar Cub
It's true that you can flash them back with Jace, I just don't think it's powerful enough to keep Jace in the list. But I agree with you about adding some number of spells snare, cutting a snapcaster or two and I think trying to fit in some type of cantrip.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I experimented with it in the weekend and it wrecked opponents by himself if they didn't deal with it. I thought I'd put it out there since it was actually rather impressive.
Even when (because at a certain point you WILL flip it back with snapcaster + flashback), beating in with a pumped Snappy felt great
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
You mention using Serum Visions to up your chances of turning Scorn on early, but that will incentivize you to scry a Dragon to the top early when you may need to make a land drop or find a Path to Exile. I just feel like Scorn will lead in to some awkward plays.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
short report:
W grixis delver
W kiki chord
L Burn
L Bant Eldrazi
W Jeskai Nahari
i really dont know if this 75 are the right ones (spoiler: no) but i do believe that this creature/tapped out control is were the archtype should move (for flash control play nahiri jeskai instead XD) spreading seas is amazing i lock out the kiki player from mana one game (between wrath the birds and seas the lands), every match could be won/lost and i made a lot of mistakes, i really thing this deck could 5-0 in the future (i could win the eldrazi match, not the burn one, but the burn player had the NUTS draw both game, but this deck is favorable against burn, and i know that since i play burn too XD), but i dont have a lot of time to playtest (i take a day off from work today XD).
Summary: creatures+permanent cantrip+hard counter+hard removal = UW control formula.
if anyone is blind, i encourage to begin with this 75 and move foward.
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Ghost Quarter
5 Island
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Plains
3 Cryptic Command
1 Negate
1 Pact of Negation
3 Spell Snare
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Path to Exile
4 Wall of Omens
3 Spreading Seas
1 Detention Sphere
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon Jura
1 Celestial Purge
3 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Disenchant
1 Runed Halo
1 Rest in Peace
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Wrath of God
Its much more of a midrange version than a draw go. Any thoughts?
crucible was/is the 16 SB slot haha, at the end when crucible is good (grindy match like tron for example) you are the aggro player most of the cases, so the control approach in those match dont fit very well, thats why i cut it/left out for other options, but if meta change i could bring back the crucible. At the end spreading seas is more tempo, beat with finks while seas buy time.
Elspeth is amazing, selective wrath (our creatures have less than 4 force!), infinite tokens for damage/chumpblock and ultimate that have a way out against stall games (i one beat a martyc proc player at something like 300 life) and is a lot of value. I love Sun titan and have a place in my hearth (and in my deck before elspeth XD), but elspeth is the best 6cc PW ever printed IMHO, and one of the best 6 drop a control player could hope (stabilize, win con, chumpblock, etc).