If you're interested in a 2 for 1 instant speed tutor, Gifts ungiven is a consideration similar to ignite the beacon. You may not get the exact 2 walkers you want but the flexibility to tutor reactive cards would likely make up for that.
I've been trying to make the value-gifts package work ever since humans came on the scene when we started mixing up our Wrath effects but unfortunately it was just never good enough. The addition of the new planeswalkers may make it worth revisiting though since one the issues I had with it was using it to find a suitable pile of proactive cards; best usually being some mix of Jace, teferi, Azcanta, snap and/or cryptic.
Ashiok has to be evaluated mostly on how much you need to stop search effects mostly fetching from your opponent. The graveyard hate is nice I guess the issue is they can go off on their own turn just fine.
Teferi and Narset seem more often to be useful. I can see Teferi absolutely breaking a combo deck at some point in Modern.
I have been playing UW Control in Modern for some time now, and I am still playing the Gideon of the Trials variation of the deck. I have been for sometime, as I am a big fan of having some 3 CMC options in UW Control for Modern. I was a previously competitive player who has played heavy Control lists in all sorts of metas, and even did some content production between 2009 and 2012 and after being away for a while, jumped back into playing UW Control in modern last year. With War of the Spark, I instantly gravitated towards Teferi, Time Raveler and Narset, Parter of Veils, but was unsure how or if they would fit within the deck. My initial draft was as follows.
Overall, I was pretty happy with this initial draft in play testing. After following the thread a bit, I saw that SuperSeed mentioned they were running a more midrange list and wolffman mentioned they were trying to still make Gideon work. It gave me a it of hope, as I was running the Gideon of the Trials list that also packed some Wall of Omens action like the 5-0 decklists of about a year ago that someone was doing well with. But I was not really eager to go full midrange with cards like Restoration Angel.
Before my FNM I decided to make a few swaps, and my decklist ended up looking like the one below.
Unlike Wolffman, Gideon of the Trials has always done well for me over the last year. While I have not really played in any events outside of FNM, I can say that he has gotten me through plenty of games vs various decks in the meta since introducing him and he continues to shine for me. I am not sure if it is because he is Gideon of the Trials or that it is just that the card is a 3 CMC card filling a gap that the archetype has been starving to do for some time.
Round 1 vs Mardu Pyromancer/Vehicles W 2-0
This was an interesting deck. Pretty much a Mardu Pyromancer deck that managed to fit in Gideon Blackblade and Heart of Kiran. I am not entirely sure what he cut to get them in or how many copies. I did not really engage in much small talk after the game. But he had some pretty explosive starts. There was a skill disparity here though, as he was easily baited into situations where Gideon Blackblade was useless outside of getting Heart of Kiran active.
Round 2 vs GBw Aggro W 2-0
I went in thinking this player was on his typical GBw deck, which is more or less just GB Rock splashing white for Lingering Souls and Path to Exile. Maybe he fit in a Gideon Blackblade or something from the new set, I thought. Turns out he was running a similar list, but made use of Death's Shadow. I am not entirely sure what he cut to make it all work, but the games boiled down to sweeping his critters and then just using Gideon of the Trials to stop him from getting through with Gurmag Angler's or Death's Shadow. I only needed to prevent damage enough times to start rolling out Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor before he would eventually concede. MVP's were Gideon of the Trials and Teferi, Time Raveler as they put a stop to any early aggression almost indefinitely. He could not present threats fast enough to get around them early on.
Round 3 vs Elves W 2-1
Basically how you would expect a heavy control match vs an all-in deck to go. Game 1 he flooded the board into a Supreme Verdict and was unable to take down Gideon of the Trials to deal with an emblem. Game 2 he played a turn 2 Choke into my tapped Prairie Stream. I kept a Prairie Stream, Field of Ruin, and Teferi, Time Ravelver in my opening just to try and see how he could play and hope to keep him off Choke so I could sweep into Teferi. I was not going to recover from the turn 2 Choke so it was a quick concession. Game 3 played out very similar to how I expected game 2 to go. He played a bunch of dorks into a Supreme Verdict and got to untap into a Teferi, Time Raveler. He went face with what little he had, and I got to instant speed cast a couple more Supreme Verdict before he finally conceded.
Round 4 vs Affinity w/Galvanic Blast W 2-1
Game 1 led with a complete hand dump and a Welding Jar. Fortunately it was a bunch of Springleaf Drums and Ornithopters. He was able to apply pressure with 2 Vault Skirge, Inkmoth Nexus, and Blinkmoth Nexus, but not fast enough for me to get Teferi' Time Raveler online and tick up until I could cast an instant speed Supreme Verdict to completely cripple his board. Game 2 was another quick hand dump into a resolved Cranial Plating. Game 3 played out similar to game 1. He played around Teferi, Time Raveler at first, but I sand bagged it for 2 turns and he decided to commit thinking I did not have it. Complete board clear, hitting his lands again, and another concession.
Final Thoughts
Overall, I am pretty happy with the list. Narset, Parter of Veils made multiple appearances throughout the night. I sided her in to help dig for sweepers vs aggro decks, where Search was not going to flip anyways. I think that Search for Azcanta has a significantly higher ceiling than Narset, Parter of Veils but a significantly lower floor than Narset. I am not sure if I will completely switch to Narset, as I feel the 3 drop start starts to get kind of clunky. But overall, she was not anything that was game breaking. Just some quality control, which was appreciated.
Teferi, Time Raveler was great. He never did anything super significant, but he did buy time whenever he would hit the battlefield. Even just bouncing something and then dying to attacks was enough to get a footing in the game. When he actually made significant plays, they were blow outs. I currently attribute this to players just not knowing how to play around him just yet, and suspect that blow out plays will decline as people familiarize themselves with him in UW Control - but it could just be that he is actually that good.
Dovin's Veto was everything I expected it to be. Very solid upgrade to Negate and I never had issues casting it... but I never needed to cast it on turn 2. Earliest I cast it was turn 3 for a Cranial Plating.
I've alwyas been a big fan of Gideon of the Trials. He is surprisingly rough on the UW manabase though, I've always seen UW's ability to run 8 basics as a huge privilege for the deck and with Gideon of the Trials you have to make some compromises there.
About the Ignite the Beacon plan, I was considering a planeswalker "toolbox" like this:
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
With this, you get something devastating for every matchup without having to run any cards that are too specialized, except for maybe Ashiok but I think grave decks are abundant enough to warrant a mainboard piece.
I imagine running SV has helped a lot with little Chad mana colors. I'm usually splashing red for 3 Helixes (and occasionally 2 Bolts - although they feel more and more useless nowadays) and I did have some issues casting him when running Opt but none when running SV.
I think Dovin, Hand of Control might just be a better a Gideon of the Trials; The -1 is basically equivalent to the +1 on Trials even so far as them both being on 4 loyalty the turn you use it first, arguably the most important time since you will have more mana to work with on follow up turns. Imo, their main purpose is to buy a few turns until you can stabilize, and I would argue that Dovin is even better in that main function since the tax will also be buying you a little tempo some amount of the time. The main difference between them is that Dovin can't close out games or pressure planeswalkers. However I would argue that the static ability on Dovin outweighs this since UW doesn't really need to close out games, it just needs to not lose. The inability to pressure planeswalkers of Dovin is his greatest downside over Gideon, notably vs the different flavors of liliana decks (though there aren't many of them at the moment). Vs Jace decks the combination of opposing path to exiles and large number of instants/sorceries make an argument for Dovin being superior since he doesn't die to path and taxes said spells. In either case, I don't think Dovin nor Gideon are strong enough right now since the matchup where they are the strongest against (Shadow) is already a matchup we are heavily favored in.
Here's my current list after testing many of the new cards:
I've really been enjoying the 26th land (Blast Zone) and zero Opt/Serum. The biggest downside of that plan is that you can't really go heavy on snapcaster because drawing more than 1 of them in the first 10 cards is awful too often.
The cards I don't like in the list are the 2cmc counterspells and Azcanta. Veto is narrow, logic knot is often dead early, leak is often dead late and Azcanta is a bit slow for the meta. Unfortunately without those cards we would just be really low on two drops and countermagic, so there aren't a lot of better options. I think you could play an Ancestral Vision over the Search and it would have much the same effect for less mana investment.
2 Surgicals main seems a bit steep, but I expect to face a lot of Dredge/Pheonix/Tron and not a lot of burn, so I think I'll find utility for them in most matches.
Depose is my pet card, not really a meta call. It finds a use against every deck, it's never amazing and it's never bad it's just always fine.
The 5th fetch is there to facilitate an additional dual source and the 3rd hallowed fountain is to give more non-basic targets for fetchlands so we don't get too far behind on the path/field wars in mirror matches
I imagine running SV has helped a lot with little Chad mana colors. I'm usually splashing red for 3 Helixes (and occasionally 2 Bolts - although they feel more and more useless nowadays) and I did have some issues casting him when running Opt but none when running SV.
I think Opt is only good if you are running Terminus.
Eight players chose to put Serum Visions into the slot more commonly occupied by Opt. They earned half a point more per player than the average White-Blue pilot. Though we should probably disregard a combination of a difference this small and a sample size to match.
Given that I agree that such a small difference and sample size is irrelevant, I do believe that if you are more aware of the necessity of a 3 CMC turn 3, Serum Visions becomes more relevant and given multiple reasons justifying negligible numbers, I tend to lean towards data. Something else worth noting is that I run more fetches to correct early mana, than most. Sitting at 7.
I think Dovin, Hand of Control might just be a better a Gideon of the Trials; The -1 is basically equivalent to the +1 on Trials even so far as them both being on 4 loyalty the turn you use it first, arguably the most important time since you will have more mana to work with on follow up turns. Imo, their main purpose is to buy a few turns until you can stabilize, and I would argue that Dovin is even better in that main function since the tax will also be buying you a little tempo some amount of the time. The main difference between them is that Dovin can't close out games or pressure planeswalkers. However I would argue that the static ability on Dovin outweighs this since UW doesn't really need to close out games, it just needs to not lose. The inability to pressure planeswalkers of Dovin is his greatest downside over Gideon, notably vs the different flavors of liliana decks (though there aren't many of them at the moment). Vs Jace decks the combination of opposing path to exiles and large number of instants/sorceries make an argument for Dovin being superior since he doesn't die to path and taxes said spells. In either case, I don't think Dovin nor Gideon are strong enough right now since the matchup where they are the strongest against (Shadow) is already a matchup we are heavily favored in.
This is an interesting evaluation. Considering that Gideon of the Trials is not as finite as Dovin, Hand of Control. You can literally tick up Rad Chad a potential infinite number of times vs Creature decks - which is why he has an inclusion. His primary application is stifling creature decks with minimal pressure. On the flip side, Control cannot really deal with an Emblem well, especially if you just let him sit there without ever using a 0 activation. So sure, they can Path him... buy why would you activate him if you just made an emblem? The list I provided literally has the bare minimum of par when it comes to threat density in a mirror match. Gideon in the control match either provides them with an incredibly difficult path to victory via a token, or provides you more inevitability than your opponent is packing. Sure, Dovin, Hand of Control can tax an opponent, but he has a significant amount of diminishing returns as the game goes long, in a match where it absolutely will go long.
I don't think there is any world in which Dovin, Hand of Control is better than Gideon of the Trials based on your evaluation parameters. But, I also would not say that Gideon is really even a necessary card in UW Control in Modern. But I think saying Dovin is better is quite a stretch.
As for your comments about your list and the 2 mana countermagic, I quite like Logic Knot, but I also run a 4/3 split of Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn to help fix my mana for Gideon of the Trials.. so I have a bit more 'got ya' moments with early Logic Knot plays. 2 Dovin's Veto seems hefty. Maybe just runing a 1 mana cantrip is better than your 3 counterspells? Hard to say.
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Yes, 2 Veto might a bit much but I just can't justify the second knot. So many decks are running maindeck nihil spellbomb or relic. I don't think the 2nd veto can be too much of a mistake, so I'll leave it for the the time being.
As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.
I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.
In the year I have been running Gideon, I cannot say I have ever had mana issues with him.
Well, yes, because your manabase is structured correctly, with 17 white sources. Which is my point; You run 2 fetchlands more, get to run 2 less basics, and lose a colorless land slot. I'm not dismissing Trials Gideon at all (in fact I love Trials Gideon), but I do think that the upped white mana requirement is a tradeoff to consider.
As for Dovin vs Gideon, I think Gideon is miles better. Dovin's static has its uses, but Gideon just being a 3 mana 4/4 beatstick that dodges a bunch of removal spells is what makes the card for me.
As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.
I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.
I started playing UW Control again when Rad Chad was printed and I got more into it once Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned. I recall games being about Celestial Colonnade beat downs in mirrors, not milling the other player. In a mirror where each player has 5 removal spells for 4 lands, the player that is more threat dense is going to get something to stick at some point. Gideon breaks that by giving you unlimited activations vs Colonnades plus pipping your threat count beyond 4 Colonnades.
I fail to see why you would say having a virtual infinite removal option for a single creature, is not very relevant - regardless of how many removal spells we run. It allows you to efficiently use the cards you have, which equates to more optimal decision making over the course of a game.
I do agree that Teferi, Time Raveler is better than both, but I also believe that the deck needs more 3 drops overall. The puzzle remains, what ones and why, should they even exist right now.
Well, yes, because your manabase is structured correctly, with 17 white sources. Which is my point; You run 2 fetchlands more, get to run 2 less basics, and lose a colorless land slot. I'm not dismissing Trials Gideon at all (in fact I love Trials Gideon), but I do think that the upped white mana requirement is a tradeoff to consider.
It is a 2 color deck... may I ask what you think I am trading off for that (genuine question, sorry for my ignorance)? A Ghost Quarter? Blast Zone? I don't see much value in them beyond 4 Field of Ruin, currently.
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Curious though about not recalling the milling; I can't ever remember a time when UW wasn't running at least 4 Path and 4 colorless lands that destroyed other lands. Before that colorless land was Field of Ruin, UW usually consisted of 4x spreading seas as well. My recollection of the era of Gideon of the Trials being introduced was that the only metric that mattered in paper was library count and online the important metrics were library count and clock.
I think the tradeoff bearscape is referring to is the distinctly low count of basic lands in your list, not so much the 5th+ colorless land - many lists are running upwards of 9 basics and as low as 1 fetchable dual. The benefit of that is minimal damage from lands, minimal ETB tapped lands, minimal damage vs land hate cards like Blood Moon, Big Thalia, Arbiter, fulminator and importantly gives you the edge in Field of Ruin mirrors. I would dare to say that the reason why most people believe UW is as successful as it is is due in large part to it having an excellent manabase. Some pro players have gone as far as saying that stock modern UW has the best mana base of any constructed deck ever.
Dovin, Hand of Control is so bad with path to exile. And if it's ability is good, UW is probably not worth playing. GotT seems good again. I like it against tron as it's a main deckable card that can pressure that stupid Karn, the Great Creator, which is a huge beating. They tutor up defense grid, and you basically lose unless you counter it on the spot. Although looking at some lists, it doesn't seem like defense grid is that common.
In addition to what was already stated, playing more basics also gives you more lands that tap for mana which is useful in long games.
I think Depose // Deploy is a bad wall of omens. I forgot how awesome it is to path your wall when your removal is dead. Wall also protects your walkers.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but at one point the UW mirror came to decking as all the cards traded with each other. Playing azcanta was so bad since the milling aspect and drawing cards makes you deck sooner, and if you're playing mtgo it just eats up your clock. I remember watching Bennyhillz talk about it on his stream that his opponent was dumb for milling cards with azcanta.
What do you guys think about playing the new karn in this deck? Like a 1 of, so you can lock people out with Mycosynth Lattice, tutor up some sort of value/hate card like relic of progenitus or crucible of worlds, when you can't afford to play lattice. I assume the karn has a lower floor but higher ceiling than other value cards you'd play like a 3rd jace or 2nd/3rd teferi or the 4 mana instant divinations, where as those cards I listed are pretty consistent. Also the static ability just hoses some decks, like tron, which has picked up in popularity. Stupid lattice is 28 tix on mtgo now...
What do you guys think about playing the new karn in this deck? Like a 1 of, so you can lock people out with Mycosynth Lattice, tutor up some sort of value/hate card like relic of progenitus or crucible of worlds, when you can't afford to play lattice. I assume the karn has a lower floor but higher ceiling than other value cards you'd play like a 3rd jace or 2nd/3rd teferi or the 4 mana instant divinations, where as those cards I listed are pretty consistent. Also the static ability just hoses some decks, like tron, which has picked up in popularity. Stupid lattice is 28 tix on mtgo now...
It's going to be pretty rough to make enough room in the side for a wishboard I'd say. We're also less likely to immediately cast the tutored card like Tron gets to.
I agree. I feel like the MB has room for 3-4 flex slots and then the pilot can arrange their sweeper set up however they want... but the SB is a tricky one to move around for stuff as it is, let alone a wishboard.
I must have come in right after the decking mirror era..
As for the comment about running fewer basic lands, I can see how that would be a legitimate cost to running more fetches. I would argue however, that the current climate of the format (overall) isn't really all that demanding on early fetches for basics. We have fewer decks like Humans, Mono Red, Affinity, and so on, running around. I think at a local level it is probably something to consider. But you can get greedier with your fetches in a format of Titanshift, Mono Green Tron, Azorius Control, and even Izzet Phoenix. I would also think that Gideon affords you a level of leeway vs the more aggressive decks because he becomes more relevant in those fringe scenarios. What I like about Gideon is that is really is a card that can work both angles fairly well and does so to the benefit of also filling an otherwise week slot on the curve for Azorius Control. As for having more lands to tap for mana in longer games, isn't that what Gideon is also there to help prevent? Especially with the new inclusion of Dovin's Veto which will just flat out stop any attempt to Path to Exile him.
Maybe I am wrong about him right now. I can see where he has been weaker in my list in the past, but lately he has just been a total beating and it felt even better with WAR.
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I mean it works for Tron cause the mana is perfect and they dont need a full hand.
So once they get 7 mana its easy for them to go Karn into Bridge on Turn 3 or 4. Then Drop Lattice Turn 4 or 5. Cause Karn + Bridge is 7 mana while Lattice is 6 mana. The mana works perfectly...too perfectly if you ask me.
Have you guys had the privilege of playing against Bant decks with Time Raveler yet? I guess it hasn't been very popular because I only ran into today for the first time since WAR.
Anyways, without access to instant speed CoCo or Queller, they just can't do anything. It's hilarious actually, I had a guy draw 9 cards off tireless tracker and it never even felt close.
Beat the Rock, Spirits, black devotion and burn, dropping only one game vs black devotion through flooding out. 3 mana planeswalkers were nutty. Ignite the Beacon got a concession out of Rock and set up the winning play vs spirits by forcing them to fight over it on their EOT and untapping into Verdict with backup. Not sure yet if Ignite is too cute or an actual consideration but with the new walkers this felt like the strongest UWx list I've played. Didn't get to play vs anything unfair but against fair decks current UW just melts anything.
Fact or Fiction is reprinted! How many FoF can we fit or is it now obsolete in Modern Azorious Control due to Narset/Jace TMS are better card selection engine?
I've been trying to make the value-gifts package work ever since humans came on the scene when we started mixing up our Wrath effects but unfortunately it was just never good enough. The addition of the new planeswalkers may make it worth revisiting though since one the issues I had with it was using it to find a suitable pile of proactive cards; best usually being some mix of Jace, teferi, Azcanta, snap and/or cryptic.
Teferi and Narset seem more often to be useful. I can see Teferi absolutely breaking a combo deck at some point in Modern.
Overall, I was pretty happy with this initial draft in play testing. After following the thread a bit, I saw that SuperSeed mentioned they were running a more midrange list and wolffman mentioned they were trying to still make Gideon work. It gave me a it of hope, as I was running the Gideon of the Trials list that also packed some Wall of Omens action like the 5-0 decklists of about a year ago that someone was doing well with. But I was not really eager to go full midrange with cards like Restoration Angel.
Before my FNM I decided to make a few swaps, and my decklist ended up looking like the one below.
Unlike Wolffman, Gideon of the Trials has always done well for me over the last year. While I have not really played in any events outside of FNM, I can say that he has gotten me through plenty of games vs various decks in the meta since introducing him and he continues to shine for me. I am not sure if it is because he is Gideon of the Trials or that it is just that the card is a 3 CMC card filling a gap that the archetype has been starving to do for some time.
Round 1 vs Mardu Pyromancer/Vehicles W 2-0
This was an interesting deck. Pretty much a Mardu Pyromancer deck that managed to fit in Gideon Blackblade and Heart of Kiran. I am not entirely sure what he cut to get them in or how many copies. I did not really engage in much small talk after the game. But he had some pretty explosive starts. There was a skill disparity here though, as he was easily baited into situations where Gideon Blackblade was useless outside of getting Heart of Kiran active.
Round 2 vs GBw Aggro W 2-0
I went in thinking this player was on his typical GBw deck, which is more or less just GB Rock splashing white for Lingering Souls and Path to Exile. Maybe he fit in a Gideon Blackblade or something from the new set, I thought. Turns out he was running a similar list, but made use of Death's Shadow. I am not entirely sure what he cut to make it all work, but the games boiled down to sweeping his critters and then just using Gideon of the Trials to stop him from getting through with Gurmag Angler's or Death's Shadow. I only needed to prevent damage enough times to start rolling out Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor before he would eventually concede. MVP's were Gideon of the Trials and Teferi, Time Raveler as they put a stop to any early aggression almost indefinitely. He could not present threats fast enough to get around them early on.
Round 3 vs Elves W 2-1
Basically how you would expect a heavy control match vs an all-in deck to go. Game 1 he flooded the board into a Supreme Verdict and was unable to take down Gideon of the Trials to deal with an emblem. Game 2 he played a turn 2 Choke into my tapped Prairie Stream. I kept a Prairie Stream, Field of Ruin, and Teferi, Time Ravelver in my opening just to try and see how he could play and hope to keep him off Choke so I could sweep into Teferi. I was not going to recover from the turn 2 Choke so it was a quick concession. Game 3 played out very similar to how I expected game 2 to go. He played a bunch of dorks into a Supreme Verdict and got to untap into a Teferi, Time Raveler. He went face with what little he had, and I got to instant speed cast a couple more Supreme Verdict before he finally conceded.
Round 4 vs Affinity w/Galvanic Blast W 2-1
Game 1 led with a complete hand dump and a Welding Jar. Fortunately it was a bunch of Springleaf Drums and Ornithopters. He was able to apply pressure with 2 Vault Skirge, Inkmoth Nexus, and Blinkmoth Nexus, but not fast enough for me to get Teferi' Time Raveler online and tick up until I could cast an instant speed Supreme Verdict to completely cripple his board. Game 2 was another quick hand dump into a resolved Cranial Plating. Game 3 played out similar to game 1. He played around Teferi, Time Raveler at first, but I sand bagged it for 2 turns and he decided to commit thinking I did not have it. Complete board clear, hitting his lands again, and another concession.
Final Thoughts
Overall, I am pretty happy with the list. Narset, Parter of Veils made multiple appearances throughout the night. I sided her in to help dig for sweepers vs aggro decks, where Search was not going to flip anyways. I think that Search for Azcanta has a significantly higher ceiling than Narset, Parter of Veils but a significantly lower floor than Narset. I am not sure if I will completely switch to Narset, as I feel the 3 drop start starts to get kind of clunky. But overall, she was not anything that was game breaking. Just some quality control, which was appreciated.
Teferi, Time Raveler was great. He never did anything super significant, but he did buy time whenever he would hit the battlefield. Even just bouncing something and then dying to attacks was enough to get a footing in the game. When he actually made significant plays, they were blow outs. I currently attribute this to players just not knowing how to play around him just yet, and suspect that blow out plays will decline as people familiarize themselves with him in UW Control - but it could just be that he is actually that good.
Dovin's Veto was everything I expected it to be. Very solid upgrade to Negate and I never had issues casting it... but I never needed to cast it on turn 2. Earliest I cast it was turn 3 for a Cranial Plating.
Moving forward, I may cut Sphinx's Revelation and Vendilion Clique. Not entirely sure what I will replace them with, but I think I would like to run 1 Search for Azcanta and 1 Narset, Parter of Veils then fit in a 2nd Teferi, Time Raveler with a 3rd in the sideboard.
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About the Ignite the Beacon plan, I was considering a planeswalker "toolbox" like this:
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
With this, you get something devastating for every matchup without having to run any cards that are too specialized, except for maybe Ashiok but I think grave decks are abundant enough to warrant a mainboard piece.
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GW Copycat
Jund Loam
Here's my current list after testing many of the new cards:
1 Search For Azcanta
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
2 teferi, hero of dominaria
Creatures (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Removal (9)
4 path to exile
1 Condemn
1 detention sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
CounterMagic (7)
1 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
2 Dovin's Veto
3 cryptic command
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Depose // Deploy
Lands (26)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Field of Ruin
2 Blast Zone
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Oust
1 Celestial Purge
1 Stony Silence
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Spell Snare
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Dispel
I've really been enjoying the 26th land (Blast Zone) and zero Opt/Serum. The biggest downside of that plan is that you can't really go heavy on snapcaster because drawing more than 1 of them in the first 10 cards is awful too often.
The cards I don't like in the list are the 2cmc counterspells and Azcanta. Veto is narrow, logic knot is often dead early, leak is often dead late and Azcanta is a bit slow for the meta. Unfortunately without those cards we would just be really low on two drops and countermagic, so there aren't a lot of better options. I think you could play an Ancestral Vision over the Search and it would have much the same effect for less mana investment.
2 Surgicals main seems a bit steep, but I expect to face a lot of Dredge/Pheonix/Tron and not a lot of burn, so I think I'll find utility for them in most matches.
Depose is my pet card, not really a meta call. It finds a use against every deck, it's never amazing and it's never bad it's just always fine.
The 5th fetch is there to facilitate an additional dual source and the 3rd hallowed fountain is to give more non-basic targets for fetchlands so we don't get too far behind on the path/field wars in mirror matches
I think Opt is only good if you are running Terminus.
Given that I agree that such a small difference and sample size is irrelevant, I do believe that if you are more aware of the necessity of a 3 CMC turn 3, Serum Visions becomes more relevant and given multiple reasons justifying negligible numbers, I tend to lean towards data. Something else worth noting is that I run more fetches to correct early mana, than most. Sitting at 7.
This is an interesting evaluation. Considering that Gideon of the Trials is not as finite as Dovin, Hand of Control. You can literally tick up Rad Chad a potential infinite number of times vs Creature decks - which is why he has an inclusion. His primary application is stifling creature decks with minimal pressure. On the flip side, Control cannot really deal with an Emblem well, especially if you just let him sit there without ever using a 0 activation. So sure, they can Path him... buy why would you activate him if you just made an emblem? The list I provided literally has the bare minimum of par when it comes to threat density in a mirror match. Gideon in the control match either provides them with an incredibly difficult path to victory via a token, or provides you more inevitability than your opponent is packing. Sure, Dovin, Hand of Control can tax an opponent, but he has a significant amount of diminishing returns as the game goes long, in a match where it absolutely will go long.
I don't think there is any world in which Dovin, Hand of Control is better than Gideon of the Trials based on your evaluation parameters. But, I also would not say that Gideon is really even a necessary card in UW Control in Modern. But I think saying Dovin is better is quite a stretch.
As for your comments about your list and the 2 mana countermagic, I quite like Logic Knot, but I also run a 4/3 split of Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn to help fix my mana for Gideon of the Trials.. so I have a bit more 'got ya' moments with early Logic Knot plays. 2 Dovin's Veto seems hefty. Maybe just runing a 1 mana cantrip is better than your 3 counterspells? Hard to say.
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As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.
I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.
Well, yes, because your manabase is structured correctly, with 17 white sources. Which is my point; You run 2 fetchlands more, get to run 2 less basics, and lose a colorless land slot. I'm not dismissing Trials Gideon at all (in fact I love Trials Gideon), but I do think that the upped white mana requirement is a tradeoff to consider.
As for Dovin vs Gideon, I think Gideon is miles better. Dovin's static has its uses, but Gideon just being a 3 mana 4/4 beatstick that dodges a bunch of removal spells is what makes the card for me.
I started playing UW Control again when Rad Chad was printed and I got more into it once Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned. I recall games being about Celestial Colonnade beat downs in mirrors, not milling the other player. In a mirror where each player has 5 removal spells for 4 lands, the player that is more threat dense is going to get something to stick at some point. Gideon breaks that by giving you unlimited activations vs Colonnades plus pipping your threat count beyond 4 Colonnades.
I fail to see why you would say having a virtual infinite removal option for a single creature, is not very relevant - regardless of how many removal spells we run. It allows you to efficiently use the cards you have, which equates to more optimal decision making over the course of a game.
I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on Gideon of the Trials vs Dovin, Hand of Control.
I do agree that Teferi, Time Raveler is better than both, but I also believe that the deck needs more 3 drops overall. The puzzle remains, what ones and why, should they even exist right now.
It is a 2 color deck... may I ask what you think I am trading off for that (genuine question, sorry for my ignorance)? A Ghost Quarter? Blast Zone? I don't see much value in them beyond 4 Field of Ruin, currently.
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Curious though about not recalling the milling; I can't ever remember a time when UW wasn't running at least 4 Path and 4 colorless lands that destroyed other lands. Before that colorless land was Field of Ruin, UW usually consisted of 4x spreading seas as well. My recollection of the era of Gideon of the Trials being introduced was that the only metric that mattered in paper was library count and online the important metrics were library count and clock.
I think the tradeoff bearscape is referring to is the distinctly low count of basic lands in your list, not so much the 5th+ colorless land - many lists are running upwards of 9 basics and as low as 1 fetchable dual. The benefit of that is minimal damage from lands, minimal ETB tapped lands, minimal damage vs land hate cards like Blood Moon, Big Thalia, Arbiter, fulminator and importantly gives you the edge in Field of Ruin mirrors. I would dare to say that the reason why most people believe UW is as successful as it is is due in large part to it having an excellent manabase. Some pro players have gone as far as saying that stock modern UW has the best mana base of any constructed deck ever.
In addition to what was already stated, playing more basics also gives you more lands that tap for mana which is useful in long games.
I think Depose // Deploy is a bad wall of omens. I forgot how awesome it is to path your wall when your removal is dead. Wall also protects your walkers.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but at one point the UW mirror came to decking as all the cards traded with each other. Playing azcanta was so bad since the milling aspect and drawing cards makes you deck sooner, and if you're playing mtgo it just eats up your clock. I remember watching Bennyhillz talk about it on his stream that his opponent was dumb for milling cards with azcanta.
What do you guys think about playing the new karn in this deck? Like a 1 of, so you can lock people out with Mycosynth Lattice, tutor up some sort of value/hate card like relic of progenitus or crucible of worlds, when you can't afford to play lattice. I assume the karn has a lower floor but higher ceiling than other value cards you'd play like a 3rd jace or 2nd/3rd teferi or the 4 mana instant divinations, where as those cards I listed are pretty consistent. Also the static ability just hoses some decks, like tron, which has picked up in popularity. Stupid lattice is 28 tix on mtgo now...
It's going to be pretty rough to make enough room in the side for a wishboard I'd say. We're also less likely to immediately cast the tutored card like Tron gets to.
I must have come in right after the decking mirror era..
As for the comment about running fewer basic lands, I can see how that would be a legitimate cost to running more fetches. I would argue however, that the current climate of the format (overall) isn't really all that demanding on early fetches for basics. We have fewer decks like Humans, Mono Red, Affinity, and so on, running around. I think at a local level it is probably something to consider. But you can get greedier with your fetches in a format of Titanshift, Mono Green Tron, Azorius Control, and even Izzet Phoenix. I would also think that Gideon affords you a level of leeway vs the more aggressive decks because he becomes more relevant in those fringe scenarios. What I like about Gideon is that is really is a card that can work both angles fairly well and does so to the benefit of also filling an otherwise week slot on the curve for Azorius Control. As for having more lands to tap for mana in longer games, isn't that what Gideon is also there to help prevent? Especially with the new inclusion of Dovin's Veto which will just flat out stop any attempt to Path to Exile him.
Maybe I am wrong about him right now. I can see where he has been weaker in my list in the past, but lately he has just been a total beating and it felt even better with WAR.
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So once they get 7 mana its easy for them to go Karn into Bridge on Turn 3 or 4. Then Drop Lattice Turn 4 or 5. Cause Karn + Bridge is 7 mana while Lattice is 6 mana. The mana works perfectly...too perfectly if you ask me.
Anyways, without access to instant speed CoCo or Queller, they just can't do anything. It's hilarious actually, I had a guy draw 9 cards off tireless tracker and it never even felt close.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Opt
2 Serum Visions
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Oust
1 Logic Knot
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Mana Leak
1 Detention Sphere
3 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Ignite the Beacon
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
2 Plains
3 Dovin's Veto
2 Celestial Purge
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ceremoneous Rejection
1 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
Beat the Rock, Spirits, black devotion and burn, dropping only one game vs black devotion through flooding out. 3 mana planeswalkers were nutty. Ignite the Beacon got a concession out of Rock and set up the winning play vs spirits by forcing them to fight over it on their EOT and untapping into Verdict with backup. Not sure yet if Ignite is too cute or an actual consideration but with the new walkers this felt like the strongest UWx list I've played. Didn't get to play vs anything unfair but against fair decks current UW just melts anything.