I see there's an Oust in the Miracles lists, and that you guys want to draw cards on your opponent's turn, and also that you don't mind 1-ofs left and right. Has anyone tested cutting the Oust and something else for a 1-of Porphyry Nodes and a 1-of Kefnet the Mindful? It's an amazing combo together, and I see some synergy with those types of decks.
Nodes is sideboard playable. Kefnet doesn't do enough for 2u. Too high of a condition to turn into a win condition and the ability is just too expensive. Paying seven to draw a card and bounce your own land is a nope.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think nodes might meet the threshold for being main deckable. At best though it would be a sidegrade to other tech options. The combo with Kefnet would just be 'fun-of' tech. Get some style points maybe, but with no way to search either up the combo wouldnt be a significant factor in the decks performace.
Oust is a fine card, nothing to write home about, but i prefer it over condemn. Sometimes hitting your own creatures for a bit of lifegain comes up. I thought about Seal Away for a bit as the 5th piece of spot removal, but I was running 3 snaps; which meant oust's value was a bit higher.
unlike jeskai, which is pretty locked up at the moment, UW has a bit of room for customization. Among the deck lists you see pop up there will be plenty of difference, and its hard to argue any list is objectively better than another. the spreading seas versions are dying off, which is good in my book cause I never liked that build anyways.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
The swamp plus chromium tech is pretty sick. But it's probably better in paper tournaments. I'll try it though in the friendly leagues. I think censor is just too poor with path to exile. I'd rather just play negate and people are upping the removal spell count anyways to deal with creatures.
I only want the third plains vs ponza. The third plains is good vs other moon decks, but that's meta dependant. I think having 1-2 dspheres is a reasonable way to beat annoying permanents other than trying to counter them or rely on cryptic.
The discussion I think is worthy having is about the cantrip suite. It seems like that isn't solved yet. I feel like you can't play 4 opt and zero serum visions, as you can't keep as many hands than you would with serum visions. The 3/3 split that Ari Lax had was interesting. Also the other thing to note is the more opts you play the more you can support 3-4 snapcasters.
Dezani probably figured his game was good enough against the rest of the field, knew a lot of top players were on UW, and figured if he was at the top tables it would give him a edge.
if you encounter a similar situation where you have unique information about the field, then chromium seems alright. if UW becomes enough of a presence in the format to warrant it as standard tech, then UW will likely be banned out of existence anyways.
on another note. what do you guys think of Hieroglyphic Illumination? ben stark had the tech in his jeskai control deck (which looked awful), but its an interesting option. 4 mana draw 2 is a pretty crappy rate, but its flexibility might make up for it.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Chromium is not the mirror-breaker we want, clearly the best mirror breaker is Kiki Jiki. In all seriousness though, Chromium dies to sweepers, and it can't attack through flying blockers. If you attack into a Clique and they block and then target Chromium with a Path, he will still die in combat if you activate his ability. Plus, you have to discard a card to make him hexproof, and you have to waste your land flex slot with a basic Swamp. Seems really bad.
This is something I've been thinking about lately, though. Pretty much every mirror breaker has a big downside:
Aetherling: dodges sweepers and spot removal, but is expensive and sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Ojutai: dies to sweepers and spot removal once he attacks, is sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Pearl Lake Ancient: instant speed, can't be countered, unkillable, but puts you behind on land drops to keep him alive.
Sphinx of the Final Word: can't be countered, hexproof, makes you auto win counter wars over your opponent's spells, but dies to sweepers and doesn't help you resolve your own stuff, since they can just target the original spell, and he's sorcery speed.
Nezahal: can't be countered, really hard to kill, gives you card advantage when your opponent casts spells, removes your hand size limit, but is sorcery speed, a lot of card disadvantage to protect it, gets chump blocked, and is killable even if it's difficult to do.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: instant speed, not expensive, doesn't let your opponent play at instant speed, so you can resolve whatever you want and makes your opponent's counters dead until they deal with him, but can be countered and killed on your opponent's main phase if you don't have
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Accidentally hit post early, was saying can be killed if you don't have protection for him.
So what does everyone think about mirror breakers? I'm leaning towards Teferi because if you resolve him, you get to untap and resolve whatever planeswalkers you want. I might play a Cavern of Souls in the land flex slot if i play him. Name Wizards, and Teferi, Snaps, and Cliques are all uncounterable.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think I may run Commandeer in the sideboard... it's a card that I play a lot in Taking Turns and when you are tapped out a lot of the times people will try to resolve a planeswalker. It's kind of a "GOTCHA" card but it seems to work.. Other than that I run 1x Elspeth
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
Dezani probably figured his game was good enough against the rest of the field, knew a lot of top players were on UW, and figured if he was at the top tables it would give him a edge.
if you encounter a similar situation where you have unique information about the field, then chromium seems alright. if UW becomes enough of a presence in the format to warrant it as standard tech, then UW will likely be banned out of existence anyways.
on another note. what do you guys think of Hieroglyphic Illumination? ben stark had the tech in his jeskai control deck (which looked awful), but its an interesting option. 4 mana draw 2 is a pretty crappy rate, but its flexibility might make up for it.
I think that's why Dezani did it, to beat all the other UW players at the top tables. I wonder when we'll get an article from him about it to see if it was worth it.
I think there needs to be some sort of established list to figure out what you're cutting/not playing to play illumination. Is it being played over the opt/serum vision slot? That's probably wrong. Is it being played over the azcanta/snapcaster slot? Then that seems reasonable. The card is kind of boring though, since you're supposed to draw one card with it most of the time.
Chromium, the Mutable is not the mirror-breaker we want, clearly the best mirror breaker is Kiki Jiki. In all seriousness though, Chromium dies to sweepers, and it can't attack through flying blockers. If you attack into a Clique and they block and then target Chromium with a Path, he will still die in combat if you activate his ability. Plus, you have to discard a card to make him hexproof, and you have to waste your land flex slot with a basic Swamp. Seems really bad.
This is something I've been thinking about lately, though. Pretty much every mirror breaker has a big downside:
Aetherling: dodges sweepers and spot removal, but is expensive and sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Dragonlord Ojutai: dies to sweepers and spot removal once he attacks, is sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Pearl Lake Ancient: instant speed, can't be countered, unkillable, but puts you behind on land drops to keep him alive.
Sphinx of the Final Word: can't be countered, hexproof, makes you auto win counter wars over your opponent's spells, but dies to sweepers and doesn't help you resolve your own stuff, since they can just target the original spell, and he's sorcery speed.
Nezahal, Primal Tide: can't be countered, really hard to kill, gives you card advantage when your opponent casts spells, removes your hand size limit, but is sorcery speed, a lot of card disadvantage to protect it, gets chump blocked, and is killable even if it's difficult to do.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: instant speed, not expensive, doesn't let your opponent play at instant speed, so you can resolve whatever you want and makes your opponent's counters dead until they deal with him, but can be countered and killed on your opponent's main phase if you don't have protection for him.
So what does everyone think about mirror breakers? I'm leaning towards Teferi because if you resolve him, you get to untap and resolve whatever planeswalkers you want. I might play a Cavern of Souls in the land flex slot if i play him. Name Wizards, and Teferi, Snaps, and Cliques are all uncounterable.
I don't agree with the dies to sweepers argument, as people will side them out in the dark, unless they think you're on geist. Everyone leaves in paths as there aren't enough cards to side in for the mirror. Even so I don't think you can afford to leave in too many sweepers in the mirror that aren't verdict. Dying to sweepers is not a legitimate complaint, dying to path is a valid concern.
Chromium, the Mutable doesn't die to clique, you can activate the ability when clique is flashed in before blocks. It becomes unblockable. Not a lot of cards go through flying blockers, at least this one wins in combat. I agree getting into combat with chromium is awkward, but I haven't played with it to see if it's that bad. I assume you can win really fast with chromium, so discarding a few cards to blank your opponents cards is worth it.
I haven't played any of the mirror breakers except for teferi. The one thing teferi has going for it that the others don't is that you can bring in teferi against other match ups, like storm.
The other mirror breaker that is not a creature is ancestral vision. It's not countered by dispel or disdainful stroke. And it's an awkward card for you opponent as it resolves on your upkeep, giving you the possibility to resolve a walker on your main phase, if the opponent tries to counter it.
I guess we can't edit. I see your point about getting into blocks with the card, it forces you to have path if your opponent has path. That does seem pretty questionable. But I guess if you have path, you path the opponent's clique precombat.
Chromium, the Mutable doesn't die to clique, you can activate the ability when clique is flashed in before blocks. It becomes unblockable. Not a lot of cards go through flying blockers, at least this one wins in combat. I agree getting into combat with chromium is awkward, but I haven't played with it to see if it's that bad. I assume you can win really fast with chromium, so discarding a few cards to blank your opponents cards is worth it.
Yeah, but then you're spending a card to do 1 point of damage. That seems really bad to me. A smart opponent will wait to Path it until after blocks. If you try to preempt and make him unblockable, they'll just hold onto the Path and take 1 point of damage that you just spent a card for. I beat Chromium in a game of limited playing a UB Control deck. He just isn't that good. Plus, having to spend your land flex slot on a basic Swamp that you can only search for with Field of Ruin is just so bad. Watch you get paired against someone playing Ghost Quarter in their flex land slot, and they GQ your Swamp before you draw him. Ouch. I'll be interested in what Dezani says about how he performed, but I'm not a believer yet.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Can someone argue for the fourth celestial colonade in the Miracle list ? Most lists play the four but I do not know if it is really useful to have the four copies or just because the list is trending now and so a lot of players that are not used to it just copy what they found.
I only play 3 and I think I never missed the fourth. I play 5 fetchs, 6 islands and 3 plains, I really value the fact that I do not have too much lands that come into play tapped. I am more a legacy player where you cannot afford to have lands like colonade that is why my opinion may be a bit biased.
I am curious about people's opinion on this as well, my first attemps at building a UW Miracles list didn't have any Colonnades for this exact reason but I keep seeing every list playing 4 copies so I was probably wrong about not playing any, I think it's either 4 or 0, playing 2-3 copies doesn't make too much sense for me
I've been playing UW, I'm happy with the deck but many times you need a clock before turn 5 or 6 with Lyra or Elspeth. Two questions about this:
-Do you think that Entreat the angels or secure the wastes is better? I have been playing secure the wastes, and although it is very good it is also slow and it is not definitive until I put 7-8 tokens.
-What do you think of monastery mentor in the side? I played it in Esper and usually in second games the opponent usually removes the removal ... and with the theft of the deck it can be a clock. What do you think?
I play 3 colonnades and im happy with tath number, probably 4 its better? Yes, but i prefere reduce the posibility of the second land enter tapped, in turn 2 its fatal for knot/negate/leak/azcanta.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Oust is a fine card, nothing to write home about, but i prefer it over condemn. Sometimes hitting your own creatures for a bit of lifegain comes up. I thought about Seal Away for a bit as the 5th piece of spot removal, but I was running 3 snaps; which meant oust's value was a bit higher.
unlike jeskai, which is pretty locked up at the moment, UW has a bit of room for customization. Among the deck lists you see pop up there will be plenty of difference, and its hard to argue any list is objectively better than another. the spreading seas versions are dying off, which is good in my book cause I never liked that build anyways.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Lands:
6.1 Islands
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
3.9 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
.3 5th blue fetch
.3 Ghost Quarter
.1 Mystic Gate
.1 Swamp
Creatures:
2.7 Snapcaster Mage
1.6 Vendilion Clique
1.4 Lyra/Baneslayer
.4 Spell Queller
.2 Chromium
.1 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers:
2.8 Jace, tMS
1.9 Teferi, HoD
.1 Jace, AoT
Enchantments:
2.3 Rest in Peace
1.6 Search for Azcanta
1.4 Stony Silence
1.3 Detention Sphere
.2 Ghostly Prison
.1 Porphyry Nodes
Artifacts:
.3 Engineered Explosives
.1 Damping Sphere
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
3.7 Terminus
3.3 Cryptic Command
3.1 Opt
2.2 Serum Visions
2 Negate
2 Dispel
1.5 Logic Knot
1.4 Timely Reinforcements
1.1 Oust
1 Ancestral Vision
.8 Supreme Verdict
.8 Surgical Extraction
.7 Disdainful Stroke
.7 Mana Leak
.7 Celestial Purge
.6 Ceremonious Rejection
.4 Wrath of God
.3 Censor
.3 Remand
.2 Condemn
.2 Think Twice
.2 Telling Time
.1 Entreat the Angels
.1 Settle the Wreckage
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
1 land flex slot
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Lyra/Baneslayer
2 more creatures
2 Teferi, HoD
4 Path to Exile
1 additional 1 mana removal spell
2 Rest in Peace
1 more piece of graveyard hate
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Detention Sphere
2 Stony Silence or 1 Ceremonious Rejection and 1 EE
4 Terminus
1 more wrath effect
7 cantrip effects (including AV, Censor, and Remand)
3 Cryptic
1 Logic Knot
2 Negate
2 Dispel
3 more counterspells
1 Timely Reinforcements
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I only want the third plains vs ponza. The third plains is good vs other moon decks, but that's meta dependant. I think having 1-2 dspheres is a reasonable way to beat annoying permanents other than trying to counter them or rely on cryptic.
The discussion I think is worthy having is about the cantrip suite. It seems like that isn't solved yet. I feel like you can't play 4 opt and zero serum visions, as you can't keep as many hands than you would with serum visions. The 3/3 split that Ari Lax had was interesting. Also the other thing to note is the more opts you play the more you can support 3-4 snapcasters.
https://mobile.twitter.com/McWinSauce/status/1033889348800966656
if you encounter a similar situation where you have unique information about the field, then chromium seems alright. if UW becomes enough of a presence in the format to warrant it as standard tech, then UW will likely be banned out of existence anyways.
on another note. what do you guys think of Hieroglyphic Illumination? ben stark had the tech in his jeskai control deck (which looked awful), but its an interesting option. 4 mana draw 2 is a pretty crappy rate, but its flexibility might make up for it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This is something I've been thinking about lately, though. Pretty much every mirror breaker has a big downside:
Aetherling: dodges sweepers and spot removal, but is expensive and sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Ojutai: dies to sweepers and spot removal once he attacks, is sorcery speed, and can be countered.
Pearl Lake Ancient: instant speed, can't be countered, unkillable, but puts you behind on land drops to keep him alive.
Sphinx of the Final Word: can't be countered, hexproof, makes you auto win counter wars over your opponent's spells, but dies to sweepers and doesn't help you resolve your own stuff, since they can just target the original spell, and he's sorcery speed.
Nezahal: can't be countered, really hard to kill, gives you card advantage when your opponent casts spells, removes your hand size limit, but is sorcery speed, a lot of card disadvantage to protect it, gets chump blocked, and is killable even if it's difficult to do.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: instant speed, not expensive, doesn't let your opponent play at instant speed, so you can resolve whatever you want and makes your opponent's counters dead until they deal with him, but can be countered and killed on your opponent's main phase if you don't have
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
So what does everyone think about mirror breakers? I'm leaning towards Teferi because if you resolve him, you get to untap and resolve whatever planeswalkers you want. I might play a Cavern of Souls in the land flex slot if i play him. Name Wizards, and Teferi, Snaps, and Cliques are all uncounterable.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think that's why Dezani did it, to beat all the other UW players at the top tables. I wonder when we'll get an article from him about it to see if it was worth it.
I think there needs to be some sort of established list to figure out what you're cutting/not playing to play illumination. Is it being played over the opt/serum vision slot? That's probably wrong. Is it being played over the azcanta/snapcaster slot? Then that seems reasonable. The card is kind of boring though, since you're supposed to draw one card with it most of the time.
I don't agree with the dies to sweepers argument, as people will side them out in the dark, unless they think you're on geist. Everyone leaves in paths as there aren't enough cards to side in for the mirror. Even so I don't think you can afford to leave in too many sweepers in the mirror that aren't verdict. Dying to sweepers is not a legitimate complaint, dying to path is a valid concern.
Chromium, the Mutable doesn't die to clique, you can activate the ability when clique is flashed in before blocks. It becomes unblockable. Not a lot of cards go through flying blockers, at least this one wins in combat. I agree getting into combat with chromium is awkward, but I haven't played with it to see if it's that bad. I assume you can win really fast with chromium, so discarding a few cards to blank your opponents cards is worth it.
I haven't played any of the mirror breakers except for teferi. The one thing teferi has going for it that the others don't is that you can bring in teferi against other match ups, like storm.
The other mirror breaker that is not a creature is ancestral vision. It's not countered by dispel or disdainful stroke. And it's an awkward card for you opponent as it resolves on your upkeep, giving you the possibility to resolve a walker on your main phase, if the opponent tries to counter it.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I am curious about people's opinion on this as well, my first attemps at building a UW Miracles list didn't have any Colonnades for this exact reason but I keep seeing every list playing 4 copies so I was probably wrong about not playing any, I think it's either 4 or 0, playing 2-3 copies doesn't make too much sense for me
I've been playing UW, I'm happy with the deck but many times you need a clock before turn 5 or 6 with Lyra or Elspeth. Two questions about this:
-Do you think that Entreat the angels or secure the wastes is better? I have been playing secure the wastes, and although it is very good it is also slow and it is not definitive until I put 7-8 tokens.
-What do you think of monastery mentor in the side? I played it in Esper and usually in second games the opponent usually removes the removal ... and with the theft of the deck it can be a clock. What do you think?