@Dreadbore:
2 interesting points you raised —- Land & Leyline substitutes.
Land. You’re going 8 fetches and 4 speed lands. I’m on 6 fetch and 0 fetch lands. Instead, 2 Graven Cairns and 2 Dragonskull summits. The fetch pings aren’t worth it Plus I am light on early black spells except collective brutality.
I’ve only gotten screwed on ETB tapped penalty once in this scheme:
7 swamp
2 mountain
1 ramunap
2 graven
2 dragonskull
2 bloodcrypt
6 fetch
1 lavaclaw reaches
I think you’re far more likely to get frigged by a speed land on a 4th land drop. As for the thoughts of terminate or dreadbore, nah. Too likely to be a dead draw. I’m on 0 abrade. And, I’m down to 1 Bedeviled. My crusade is to eliminate all 1-for-1 removal.
Leyline replacement. Wow. Some very interesting tech that can impact in mid/late game and this’ll be the first time that I use Rakdos Charm. Sooooo long have I maligned that charm. Izzet! Now that’s a charm, baby!!!
I'm thinking along the same lines now. Fluffy just runs the 4 fetches, not sure where the sweet spot is but in a slower deck like ours 8 seems like a lot. I don't know if I should keep the Blackcleave Cliffs or convert them to more basics. How are you finding Lavaclaw Reaches?
I know Bedevil/Dreadbore/Terminate are 1 for 1 but they are pretty unconditional. Fatal Push isn't really an option in this deck and Bolts are only good because you can end games with them. I'm hoping Pack Rat can eat up dead draw cards but I'm not sure what to cut for Pack Rat and how many of them I should run.
How many K-commands and Collective Brutalities are you running?
I'm a huge fan of Rakdos Charm, options and choices are nice. Leyline of the Void just seems like a big blunt instrument, especially in playsets of 4. Rakdos Charm is a more elegant solution, in combo with Nihil Spellbomb.
Also after you mention Purphoros I had to try him and but does he work well with Goblin Rabblemaster and Pack Rat. Too many fun tech cards to accommodate!
While Pack Rat left unchecked by your opponent is Game Ending, I am still sceptical if the card is necessary for this type of deck. Both Rabblemaster and Warboss already have good synergy. The Tokens can attack under a bridge and with Liliana and Brutality you are already getting hellbent efficiently if you need Bridge protection. Further more, dead cards can be converted to Damage by Hazoret sitting behind a Bridge. Pack Rat will also make you dependant on drawing artifact removal if you want to attack with them. I have not playtested Pack Rat but I don't see the benefits of using it for this type of deck where Bridge is an important lock piece.
While Pack Rat left unchecked by your opponent is Game Ending, I am still sceptical if the card is necessary for this type of deck. Both Rabblemaster and Warboss already have good synergy. The Tokens can attack under a bridge and with Liliana and Brutality you are already getting hellbent efficiently if you need Bridge protection. Further more, dead cards can be converted to Damage by Hazoret sitting behind a Bridge. Pack Rat will also make you dependant on drawing artifact removal if you want to attack with them. I have not playtested Pack Rat but I don't see the benefits of using it for this type of deck where Bridge is an important lock piece.
Definitely acknowledge your concerns and they are certainly valid. My reasoning is this; you can opt to play a single bridge and build up a Pack Rat board as a separate line of threats. Feed additional bridges to the rats plus whatever else you don't need. All the single bridge has to do is buy a few turns and you should have 4 4/4 Rats or better. Then you can wait to draw a Bedevil or Goblin Cratermaker all while pursuing the usually prison win cons. You're giving your opponents not only the bridge itself to worry about (and your walkers behind it) but also the scare of a flood of rats as soon as the bridge comes down.
IMO it's food for thought at least. Maybe it's not a 4x in the main but 1 or 2 Pack Rats could offer an alternative outlet to Hazoret (of course you'd still run Hazoret as a 1-of). Maybe I just have a fascination with this "get out of control quick" pet card but I feel wherever Blood Moon and Liliana are Pack Rat isn't far away. Should be able to do some work in the equation but you're right it's a bit of a non-bo with bridge.
Pack Rat? The best way to rate the effectiveness of a card in a given meta is to judge it against current strategies that are being used to success. So, what are the big decks of the day??
Izzet Phoenix
Burn
U/W Control
Dredge
That's what I see on MODO. People are preparing to defeat these decks. What do these decks do? Izzet/dredge/burn will attempt to swarm you with fast creatures that go wide. The answer to defeat this approach is EITHER to go even faster and outrace them OR sweep their board with a Thing in the Ice --- sweep their board with a terminus.
Where does that leave Pack Rat?
Not fast enough and gets shut down by our own sweeper: ensnaring bridge. The opponents will be ready for Pack Rat - no question about it. Of course, there's more to it than that. But, on a rudimentary level, the Rat fails. Now, here's a perfect example of a card that could make it if the meta changes.
Lavaclaw Reaches? Yes. Play this land. It has won me so many games over the years in a mid-range rakdos shell, and it is a good fit in Rakdos Pyro Prison. Highlight: I did 14 points of damage against a G/Tron opponent who stalled out, and then I finished him by stealing his Newlamog with my top-decked Angrath, the flame-chained and bopping him silly.
@Dreadbore asked about Collective Brutality? 4 in the main. K-Command 1 in the main and 1 in the side. The rakdos charm may skew these numbers. Right now, I'm trying 1 in the side.
GRAVEYARD KILL STRATEGIES AGAINST DREDGE
You mentioned Nihil Spellbomb. Hmmm...Is it better than Relic of Progenitus or Grafdigger's Cage? When facing Dredge, the only card that guarantees a win is Leyline of the Void - IF - you can follow it with a Chalice on 1 to stop nature's claim. Or, a Blood moon to stop...nature's claim. Now, Grafdigger's is swell and all, but expect it to be trashed by a either a nature's claim OR an ancient grudge (which of course a blood moon doesn't stop, and it's hard to get out a chalice on 2 in time, if the motherhumper is dredging and looting at turbo speed.
All of this weighing of options is in an effort to trim down the number of Leyline of the Voids in the SB. 4-of is only good against really one opponent: Dredge. There are occasions facing other decks where I like to bring in 2 Leylines. So, this means that there are 2 slots in my sideboard that are only there against 1 deck. Not Good. AND, my playstyle in games 2 and 3 is extremely primitive. It's a spin of the roulette wheel. Opening Hand: Does it have a leyline?? Nope. Ship it and continue until it does.
Very risky and totally self-defeating if they slam down a nature's claim. What you're left with is the single most broken and retarded form of Magic, the Gathering. Basically, you're not playing a game of skill. Instead, you're flipping a coin. Sad. But, shoot, don't blame yourself. Blame Creeping Chill.
Let's put Pack Rat aside as a possible SB swap for bridge or maybeboard if the meta calls for it.
I will try a Lavaclaw and see how that goes. I have a few other pieces to bring up regarding RB Prison. Indulge me
How about Asylum Visitor as a 1-of or 2-of? Bob is obviously too costly in a deck like ours but Asylum Visitor gives us that little bit more when hellbent and we need to topdeck a win condition quicker. Madness works with Liliana, Collective Brutality and Hazoret. Seems decent even as a 2 mana body that trades decently well.
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet as a 1-of in the SB? Again, at odds with Bridge but could be useful against wide creature decks (who will be running artifact removal of course).
Olivia Voldaren I can see her being annoying behind a bridge, zapping and stealing stuff while pumping herself in case the bridge falls. I love interactive cards like this and I think bridges/chalices give Olivia that breathing room she needs to do her work.
Your last two paragraphs are right on. It’s how I feel when I play MTGO. I’ve been playing modern since the format was created and only until now do I feel it’s devolved into what is is today. Can you answer me? No? Die.
Now, that’s good and all when there a few decks that can win in such a way - comboish typically. But, I feel there are too many consistent threats in today’s field that require answers that have not been printed yet.
Just last night I had somewhere between four to five creatures on the board and it was the 3rd or 4th. I was on the play. I casted two more creatures for the win and my opponent had one land. He the. Exiles SSG, taps a land, and cast Gyo Return or something like that. A 7/7 flyer pops out of the grave and he draws his whole deck and goes from 5 live to 20+...one land...Modern is dumb as f...now. But, whatever right. lol
MTG is more luck than skill based. But, now I’m just ranting. lol
So ever since i've seen Jacob Brooks piloting master Prison i've grown interested on the RB prison variaton of the archetype. I think it feels very complete and can't steamroll decks that are not prepared (like Shadow, creature decks, 4C whir). there's also small value changes that makes the deck slowly gain position against other decks. Think like Temple of malice, lavaclaw reaches, and master of cruelties.
I need some help against control and burn decks: i think that winning against control is winnable with this configuration. Olivia Voldaren is pure value but i think it's to slow, i'll prefer to use a good dragon. THoughts?
if you would add in Asylum Visitor. What cards would you cut?
I like Kalitas against burn but I personally would run another Anger of Gods instead of him if its creature wide decks you are worried about. He has been too slow for me. But I also run Leyline of the Void so thats another reason I dont play him.
If you are behind a bridge Olivia can be fun but you are making yourself dependant on blowing up your bridge to win and giving your opponent time to find answers. I have playtested her only a wee bit and she was too slow for me. Maybe others have had better experiences here with her.
I need some help against control and burn decks: i think that winning against control is winnable with this configuration. Olivia Voldaren is pure value but i think it's to slow, i'll prefer to use a good dragon. THoughts?
From my experience the only way i beat burn is having an early chalice on 1. It slows them down but its not an autowin. The Collective Brutalities help but sadly are not enough. For this reason I had tested Kalitas for awhile and was thinking of a Dragon's Claw in SB. Chalice on 1 paired with pressure is my strategy.
Azorious Control is a similiar situation where I need an early Bloodmoon. Keeping the control player off UU helps a wee bit and being aggro with Rabblemaster. I am currently testing Magus in SB to up my chances of an early Moon effect. I can see why some would want Stormbreath in this MU. But if the game goes that late i am already behind by a wide margin because I beat Control by cutting off their mana colors early paired with a clock. The Disruption with Collective Brutality is noticebly worse than Thoughtseizes and Kozileks.
Against Control and Tron I need to be Aggro with a Chalice or Moon effect early.
New Krenko isn’t going to be good enough - mostly since Goblins don’t gain haste, but c’mon — still mighty kind of Wizards to clearly gift Pyro Prison a new toy.
They’re thinking of us.
Rakdos Pyro Prison testing is sporadic lately, not for lack of faith. Just time. The options getting discussed don’t strike me as good enough: a visitor (hellbent is hard, despite madness play), Olivia hasn’t seen play in years, Khalitas 3-power isn’t impactful (agree dragons claw is better).
Caution: to those not running 6 fetchlands to step in front of an early blood moon and similarly beware double black. Anyone else think Liliana the last hope is the weakest spell?
Caution: to those not running 6 fetchlands to step in front of an early blood moon and similarly beware double black. Anyone else think Liliana the last hope is the weakest spell?
An early Bloodmoon could hurt myself from casting Liliana of the Veil. But other than that I have cut the Last Hope and the Bedevils. Not having to have double black fervently aside for the Veil gets me less color screwed.
Liliana the last Hope was underperforming for me and I have also dropped Bedevil for the time being. Maybe when War of the Sparks is out I will give Bedevil another try. Kolaghans Command is currently just much more efficient and easier to cast. Really looking forward to trying out Angraths Revenge from the upcoming set. Could be a better Bedevil.
Krenko-Tin Street Kingpin looks slow. It doesn't do anything on it's first turn. It will take two turns to do 2 damage. Then it does a total of 7 damage on it's third turn. In comparison the Goblin Rabblemaster sends a minion for 1 on its first turn and does a total of 7 damage on it's second turn and a total of 15 on it's third turn.
can we pin updated deck versions to the first post?
i was thinking having a base decklist of each archtype: straight mono red, sun and moon, rakdos. all on the first page so one doesn't have to scroll through 160 pages of forum to find various lists
Is it just me or is new Karn an amazing piece for our deck. Along with the static ability shutting down Affinity, his -2 to get any artifact from our board or exile seems just like what we want. Need a Sorcerous Spyglass or Damping sphere or Grafdigger's cage or Trinisphere or or or or or ... Can certainly keep an ensnaring bridge in the board too... I can't wait to test with this!
Is it just me or is new Karn an amazing piece for our deck. Along with the static ability shutting down Affinity, his -2 to get any artifact from our board or exile seems just like what we want. Need a Sorcerous Spyglass or Damping sphere or Grafdigger's cage or Trinisphere or or or or or ... Can certainly keep an ensnaring bridge in the board too... I can't wait to test with this!
I’m excited for him too! Watching his preorder price waiting for it to go down a bit before I order. I imagine he will be a one of in the sideboard, but the mainboad potential is very interesting!
But do ya think it's possible to get a hand on this deck, in a budget friendly version?
I think around 200$ around.
I know, that means no chalice and no ensnaring bridge, but I think these 2 Cards are essential for that deck, right?
Greetings
It depends on your expectations. This isn't a Tier 1 Deck as it is. The RB Version is less agressive as mono red and plays more controllish. Without Bridges and Chalices you will have huge holes in your defense. Maybe you could try to compensate that with more removal and hand disruption if you really wanted to try.
But if you want to be FNM competitive then I'd be more inclined to try "Free Win Red" without Chalices and Bridges if budget is a concern. I would replace the Chalices & Bridges for example with Goblins, Eidolons, Koths, Magus of Moons.
I'm thinking along the same lines now. Fluffy just runs the 4 fetches, not sure where the sweet spot is but in a slower deck like ours 8 seems like a lot. I don't know if I should keep the Blackcleave Cliffs or convert them to more basics. How are you finding Lavaclaw Reaches?
I know Bedevil/Dreadbore/Terminate are 1 for 1 but they are pretty unconditional. Fatal Push isn't really an option in this deck and Bolts are only good because you can end games with them. I'm hoping Pack Rat can eat up dead draw cards but I'm not sure what to cut for Pack Rat and how many of them I should run.
How many K-commands and Collective Brutalities are you running?
I'm a huge fan of Rakdos Charm, options and choices are nice. Leyline of the Void just seems like a big blunt instrument, especially in playsets of 4. Rakdos Charm is a more elegant solution, in combo with Nihil Spellbomb.
Also after you mention Purphoros I had to try him and but does he work well with Goblin Rabblemaster and Pack Rat. Too many fun tech cards to accommodate!
Definitely acknowledge your concerns and they are certainly valid. My reasoning is this; you can opt to play a single bridge and build up a Pack Rat board as a separate line of threats. Feed additional bridges to the rats plus whatever else you don't need. All the single bridge has to do is buy a few turns and you should have 4 4/4 Rats or better. Then you can wait to draw a Bedevil or Goblin Cratermaker all while pursuing the usually prison win cons. You're giving your opponents not only the bridge itself to worry about (and your walkers behind it) but also the scare of a flood of rats as soon as the bridge comes down.
IMO it's food for thought at least. Maybe it's not a 4x in the main but 1 or 2 Pack Rats could offer an alternative outlet to Hazoret (of course you'd still run Hazoret as a 1-of). Maybe I just have a fascination with this "get out of control quick" pet card but I feel wherever Blood Moon and Liliana are Pack Rat isn't far away. Should be able to do some work in the equation but you're right it's a bit of a non-bo with bridge.
Pack Rat? The best way to rate the effectiveness of a card in a given meta is to judge it against current strategies that are being used to success. So, what are the big decks of the day??
Izzet Phoenix
Burn
U/W Control
Dredge
That's what I see on MODO. People are preparing to defeat these decks. What do these decks do? Izzet/dredge/burn will attempt to swarm you with fast creatures that go wide. The answer to defeat this approach is EITHER to go even faster and outrace them OR sweep their board with a Thing in the Ice --- sweep their board with a terminus.
Where does that leave Pack Rat?
Not fast enough and gets shut down by our own sweeper: ensnaring bridge. The opponents will be ready for Pack Rat - no question about it. Of course, there's more to it than that. But, on a rudimentary level, the Rat fails. Now, here's a perfect example of a card that could make it if the meta changes.
Lavaclaw Reaches? Yes. Play this land. It has won me so many games over the years in a mid-range rakdos shell, and it is a good fit in Rakdos Pyro Prison. Highlight: I did 14 points of damage against a G/Tron opponent who stalled out, and then I finished him by stealing his Newlamog with my top-decked Angrath, the flame-chained and bopping him silly.
@Dreadbore asked about Collective Brutality? 4 in the main. K-Command 1 in the main and 1 in the side. The rakdos charm may skew these numbers. Right now, I'm trying 1 in the side.
GRAVEYARD KILL STRATEGIES AGAINST DREDGE
You mentioned Nihil Spellbomb. Hmmm...Is it better than Relic of Progenitus or Grafdigger's Cage? When facing Dredge, the only card that guarantees a win is Leyline of the Void - IF - you can follow it with a Chalice on 1 to stop nature's claim. Or, a Blood moon to stop...nature's claim. Now, Grafdigger's is swell and all, but expect it to be trashed by a either a nature's claim OR an ancient grudge (which of course a blood moon doesn't stop, and it's hard to get out a chalice on 2 in time, if the motherhumper is dredging and looting at turbo speed.
All of this weighing of options is in an effort to trim down the number of Leyline of the Voids in the SB. 4-of is only good against really one opponent: Dredge. There are occasions facing other decks where I like to bring in 2 Leylines. So, this means that there are 2 slots in my sideboard that are only there against 1 deck. Not Good. AND, my playstyle in games 2 and 3 is extremely primitive. It's a spin of the roulette wheel. Opening Hand: Does it have a leyline?? Nope. Ship it and continue until it does.
Very risky and totally self-defeating if they slam down a nature's claim. What you're left with is the single most broken and retarded form of Magic, the Gathering. Basically, you're not playing a game of skill. Instead, you're flipping a coin. Sad. But, shoot, don't blame yourself. Blame Creeping Chill.
I will try a Lavaclaw and see how that goes. I have a few other pieces to bring up regarding RB Prison. Indulge me
How about Asylum Visitor as a 1-of or 2-of? Bob is obviously too costly in a deck like ours but Asylum Visitor gives us that little bit more when hellbent and we need to topdeck a win condition quicker. Madness works with Liliana, Collective Brutality and Hazoret. Seems decent even as a 2 mana body that trades decently well.
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet as a 1-of in the SB? Again, at odds with Bridge but could be useful against wide creature decks (who will be running artifact removal of course).
Olivia Voldaren I can see her being annoying behind a bridge, zapping and stealing stuff while pumping herself in case the bridge falls. I love interactive cards like this and I think bridges/chalices give Olivia that breathing room she needs to do her work.
Your last two paragraphs are right on. It’s how I feel when I play MTGO. I’ve been playing modern since the format was created and only until now do I feel it’s devolved into what is is today. Can you answer me? No? Die.
Now, that’s good and all when there a few decks that can win in such a way - comboish typically. But, I feel there are too many consistent threats in today’s field that require answers that have not been printed yet.
Just last night I had somewhere between four to five creatures on the board and it was the 3rd or 4th. I was on the play. I casted two more creatures for the win and my opponent had one land. He the. Exiles SSG, taps a land, and cast Gyo Return or something like that. A 7/7 flyer pops out of the grave and he draws his whole deck and goes from 5 live to 20+...one land...Modern is dumb as f...now. But, whatever right. lol
MTG is more luck than skill based. But, now I’m just ranting. lol
YOUTUBE CHANNEL: GOBOTS
// 8 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
// 7 Creature
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Master of Cruelties
// 4 Enchantment
4 Blood Moon
// 8 Instant
3 Bedevil
1 Abrade
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Desperate Ritual
3 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp
2 Graven Cairns
1 Temple of Malice
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
// 7 Planeswalker
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 4 Sorcery
4 Collective Brutality
I need some help against control and burn decks: i think that winning against control is winnable with this configuration. Olivia Voldaren is pure value but i think it's to slow, i'll prefer to use a good dragon. THoughts?
if you would add in Asylum Visitor. What cards would you cut?
I like Kalitas against burn but I personally would run another Anger of Gods instead of him if its creature wide decks you are worried about. He has been too slow for me. But I also run Leyline of the Void so thats another reason I dont play him.
If you are behind a bridge Olivia can be fun but you are making yourself dependant on blowing up your bridge to win and giving your opponent time to find answers. I have playtested her only a wee bit and she was too slow for me. Maybe others have had better experiences here with her.
From my experience the only way i beat burn is having an early chalice on 1. It slows them down but its not an autowin. The Collective Brutalities help but sadly are not enough. For this reason I had tested Kalitas for awhile and was thinking of a Dragon's Claw in SB. Chalice on 1 paired with pressure is my strategy.
Azorious Control is a similiar situation where I need an early Bloodmoon. Keeping the control player off UU helps a wee bit and being aggro with Rabblemaster. I am currently testing Magus in SB to up my chances of an early Moon effect. I can see why some would want Stormbreath in this MU. But if the game goes that late i am already behind by a wide margin because I beat Control by cutting off their mana colors early paired with a clock. The Disruption with Collective Brutality is noticebly worse than Thoughtseizes and Kozileks.
Against Control and Tron I need to be Aggro with a Chalice or Moon effect early.
They’re thinking of us.
Rakdos Pyro Prison testing is sporadic lately, not for lack of faith. Just time. The options getting discussed don’t strike me as good enough: a visitor (hellbent is hard, despite madness play), Olivia hasn’t seen play in years, Khalitas 3-power isn’t impactful (agree dragons claw is better).
Caution: to those not running 6 fetchlands to step in front of an early blood moon and similarly beware double black. Anyone else think Liliana the last hope is the weakest spell?
An early Bloodmoon could hurt myself from casting Liliana of the Veil. But other than that I have cut the Last Hope and the Bedevils. Not having to have double black fervently aside for the Veil gets me less color screwed.
Liliana the last Hope was underperforming for me and I have also dropped Bedevil for the time being. Maybe when War of the Sparks is out I will give Bedevil another try. Kolaghans Command is currently just much more efficient and easier to cast. Really looking forward to trying out Angraths Revenge from the upcoming set. Could be a better Bedevil.
Krenko-Tin Street Kingpin looks slow. It doesn't do anything on it's first turn. It will take two turns to do 2 damage. Then it does a total of 7 damage on it's third turn. In comparison the Goblin Rabblemaster sends a minion for 1 on its first turn and does a total of 7 damage on it's second turn and a total of 15 on it's third turn.
I started playing the deck early February.
I was the only red prison deck to make Day 2.
Day 1. I was at 6-1 and then unfortunately finished the day 6-3 due to misplays.
Day 2. Dropped at 7-6
i was thinking having a base decklist of each archtype: straight mono red, sun and moon, rakdos. all on the first page so one doesn't have to scroll through 160 pages of forum to find various lists
I’m excited for him too! Watching his preorder price waiting for it to go down a bit before I order. I imagine he will be a one of in the sideboard, but the mainboad potential is very interesting!
But do ya think it's possible to get a hand on this deck, in a budget friendly version?
I think around 200$ around.
I know, that means no chalice and no ensnaring bridge, but I think these 2 Cards are essential for that deck, right?
Greetings
It depends on your expectations. This isn't a Tier 1 Deck as it is. The RB Version is less agressive as mono red and plays more controllish. Without Bridges and Chalices you will have huge holes in your defense. Maybe you could try to compensate that with more removal and hand disruption if you really wanted to try.
But if you want to be FNM competitive then I'd be more inclined to try "Free Win Red" without Chalices and Bridges if budget is a concern. I would replace the Chalices & Bridges for example with Goblins, Eidolons, Koths, Magus of Moons.
If you dont own the snow-covered stuff, you have to work around but its possible to go for something like this:
2x Scrying Sheets
20x Snow-Covered Mountain
Creature (6)
1x Glorybringer
2x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Sweltering Suns
Planeswalker (8)
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
4x Koth of the Hammer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
Artifact (8)
4x Mind Stone
4x Relic of Progenitus
Enchantment (3)
3x Blood Moon
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."