The only time I've had trouble with spirits is turn two geist and CoCo into double captain in response to a kill spell. Outside of that the games have been very manageable so long as you don't wait on your removal and let them untap in the early turns. IoK is good here, but it doesn't hit coco which can be more dangerous than GoST depending on your build. You just have to really, really make sure you don't play into their stuff which isn't especially difficult when you know what they can have. The wanderer has only ever been an annoyance rather than a serious problem that delays me by several turns, you just can't wait on casting your spells. Just dump your spot removal the moment you have a target and don't let them assemble a board and the only thing you have to worry about is a "gotcha" from GoST. That's been my experience with the match before GRN and I've only played against it twice with my Bolas build and both matches were the same as previous builds, but with the ability to block.
EDIT: I'm going to just assume that you and I have simply had wildly different experience with the variance of the game. Perhaps your opponents ran exceptionally well or mine especially bad. When spirits has the right disruption at the right time with a CoCo to top it off the deck looks unebatable, but that does need a lot to go right. All I can say for certain is that I've never had a problem when I focus on not running face first into their disruption in the opening turns.
I feel like we have a pretty good matchup against spirits... depending on your configuration. OK, i'll admit i dont play counterspells main deck and they are probably bad in the matchup so it helps for me. I played against the deck 3 times in the last SCG and i went 2-1 (Lost the third to a top deck CoCo into captain / selfless while i was targeting their other captain with fatal push and had damnation in hand...)
Try trimming some of your counterspells main deck to add discard effects, its great against them
Spirits player here. I've played UW vial and coco builds. Here is what hurts me the most.
Discard sucks for me because it lets you play around my combat/hexproof tricks with more known information. Discard into discard + push can take a TON of wind out of my sails.
Try interacting on my turn. I.e. Bolt the queller to get them to pull the trigger on coco or something similar and make them spend resources on the spirit players turn. Then untap and clean up with a sweeper or 2+ for 1. Local guy commonly points removal at a key spirit and I have think of what he's going to do when he gets to untap.
Prioritize spirits. Rattlechains and wanderer aren't they threatening. drogskol captain, queller, and Geist. The deck only has 10ish significant threats. I wouldn't even say supreme phantom is all that big of a deal usually if you manage the field well.
Don't waste resources on vial if you're playing against those builds. I'm never unhappy to see an opponent waste resources AND a card to kill my vials.
Hi! New modern player, but long time standard player for MTG. I have always loved the Grixis Control archetype, and when I decided I wanted to play modern I spent a lot of time researching the different 'meta' decks, and decided I didn't like most of the top meta decks, and found I really liked Grixis Control a lot and wanted to try it. I first started by watching a few Cory Burkhartt videos, and a few other MTG streamers including Gods_Shadow. I liked it, I wanted to try it. So I built a deck (You can look at the current decklist here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ravaged-control/ ) and went to my LGS.
Boy did I have a rough night! You can see the details in the link I shared above, but basically I went 0-2 against Tron (first match up had to be tron, obviously) 1-2 against UWR Ad Nauseam (I should have won this match up, chose my counters poorly), and went 1-1-1 against Orzhov Value Town? (all I saw initially was Lilly of the Veils and tons of Thoguhtseize/Inquisition, second game I steamed ahead and even managed to flip Bolas, last game I got flooded with tokens that I wasn't expecting and hadn't sideboarded in my Izzet Staticasters or Anger of the Gods).
Anyways, I had a bad night - I think mostly because as a control player you have to know your match ups, and being new to modern I do not. I thought I'd get a better feel from all the videos I watched but really the only thing I recognized was Tron, which I think in general is just a bad match up. If y'all don't mind I would appreciate feedback on my deck list or even tips on what I should look out for and how I can become a better modern player.
Hi! New modern player, but long time standard player for MTG. I have always loved the Grixis Control archetype, and when I decided I wanted to play modern I spent a lot of time researching the different 'meta' decks, and decided I didn't like most of the top meta decks, and found I really liked Grixis Control a lot and wanted to try it. I first started by watching a few Cory Burkhartt videos, and a few other MTG streamers including Gods_Shadow. I liked it, I wanted to try it. So I built a deck (You can look at the current decklist here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ravaged-control/ ) and went to my LGS.
Boy did I have a rough night! You can see the details in the link I shared above, but basically I went 0-2 against Tron (first match up had to be tron, obviously) 1-2 against UWR Ad Nauseam (I should have won this match up, chose my counters poorly), and went 1-1-1 against Orzhov Value Town? (all I saw initially was Lilly of the Veils and tons of Thoguhtseize/Inquisition, second game I steamed ahead and even managed to flip Bolas, last game I got flooded with tokens that I wasn't expecting and hadn't sideboarded in my Izzet Staticasters or Anger of the Gods).
Anyways, I had a bad night - I think mostly because as a control player you have to know your match ups, and being new to modern I do not. I thought I'd get a better feel from all the videos I watched but really the only thing I recognized was Tron, which I think in general is just a bad match up. If y'all don't mind I would appreciate feedback on my deck list or even tips on what I should look out for and how I can become a better modern player.
Thanks!
Welcome to the Grixis Cabal! Best advice I can give you to get better in modern in general is to lose. A lot. And you're already starting on that so good job, hehe! Seriously, it just takes time to get the experience required to know what is important and when. It's the same as control in standard except you have a lot more decks, threats, and answers to consider. Even though Corey's videos are very dated at this point, they're still a good resource for somebody new to the deck to learn some of the unique play patterns we have available to us.
Your deck list is mostly fine, albeit a touch heavy on the discard. The biggest suggestion that I'll insist on is to cut the electrolyzes for almost anything else. You get really choked at three mana between them Kommand and snaps which makes it too difficult to deploy your spells effectively. I'd recommend some tasigur's and scours and perhaps an extra land. I've never liked 3x Field with only 24 total lands personally. I don't know if you have any budget or card availability concerns, but I'd like to see something like this to start with:
I dont like 3 FoR in grixis either, our mana is too heavy on colors to play that land as a 3 ofs. I would also recommend cutting electrolyze and some amount of discards... I would cut exactly the same cards as stokpile and also change 1 or 2 FoR for other lands. As for what i would add, 4 serum visions cuz i really enjoy the card also I found that Vclique is excellent paired with bolas... (if they have 2 kill spell, you take 1 out and they use the other on Clique... Bolas is clear)
So:
-1 Bolas
-4 Electrolyze
-2 IoK
-1 FoR
one cool thing i am noticing about the grixis archetype is that sideboards are starting to converge more than they used. to. Its like people have finally started to agree what its best sideboard options are (brutality, anger, damnation, extraction, dispel, countersquall, staticaster, fulminator)
I'd say that this is most likely a product of the format as a whole coalescing into a few very narrow archetypes and heavily pushing out every other deck. Two graveyard aggro decks, two control (not including grixis), two disruptive aggro, two spell combo, and then there's always tron. And it just so happens that two of them we crush, one is slightly good for us, and the other two just curb stomp us. Everything else in the format just instantly rolls over dead against at least half of those decks. This means that our SB can be very focused and we can mostly ignore everything else that can show up in an open field.
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I dont like 3 FoR in grixis either, our mana is too heavy on colors to play that land as a 3 ofs. I would also recommend cutting electrolyze and some amount of discards... I would cut exactly the same cards as stokpile and also change 1 or 2 FoR for other lands. As for what i would add, 4 serum visions cuz i really enjoy the card also I found that Vclique is excellent paired with bolas... (if they have 2 kill spell, you take 1 out and they use the other on Clique... Bolas is clear)
So:
-1 Bolas
-4 Electrolyze
-2 IoK
-1 FoR
But the tasigur version is also fine... just dépends on what your meta is and what you enjoy playing.
I just need that last scalding tarn. I have the rest. I’ll report back on how I do next Wednesday. I’ll try not to be discouraged by losing, it is the best way to learn!
After more testing and a bunch more matches with grixis post GRN, I've settled on a list that I'm going to be running for a while. It is quite similar to my previous builds, but with a few small tweaks between now and then.
The ultimatum can be traded for a glimmer of genius or another bolas, but I do want it to be a draw spell or haymaker effect and prefer it to not be a permanent, especially not search for azcanta as that card is under heavy assault right now. Most cards that could fit into this spot are going to be bad against combo by default, so I'd like one that has the highest upside and so far ultimatum has been fine meeting those requirements.
The hand disruption package has been phenomenal between clique and erasure. Between that and the permission it has made the combo decks quite easily managed in the first game when I don't just 'get got' on turn three. Postboard it has been great with Ego as a trump card in many different matches. Even though it can be too slow against tron on the draw, if they don't have it assembled on board by three the game just ends and I'm ok with that.
Still zero cantrips in the deck and I haven't missed them. The surveil from erasure fulfills the role of making sure you have lands coming when you need them and business when you don't quite well. The fact that they can take a CoCo, Jace, or a Baral has been incredibly important and often game defining. That's not to mention that they aren't blank cards on turn twenty, they're not great but they still do something while IoK or thoughtseize are actually dead cards.
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After more testing and a bunch more matches with grixis post GRN, I've settled on a list that I'm going to be running for a while. It is quite similar to my previous builds, but with a few small tweaks between now and then.
The ultimatum can be traded for a glimmer of genius or another bolas, but I do want it to be a draw spell or haymaker effect and prefer it to not be a permanent, especially not search for azcanta as that card is under heavy assault right now. Most cards that could fit into this spot are going to be bad against combo by default, so I'd like one that has the highest upside and so far ultimatum has been fine meeting those requirements.
The hand disruption package has been phenomenal between clique and erasure. Between that and the permission it has made the combo decks quite easily managed in the first game when I don't just 'get got' on turn three. Postboard it has been great with Ego as a trump card in many different matches. Even though it can be too slow against tron on the draw, if they don't have it assembled on board by three the game just ends and I'm ok with that.
Still zero cantrips in the deck and I haven't missed them. The surveil from erasure fulfills the role of making sure you have lands coming when you need them and business when you don't quite well. The fact that they can take a CoCo, Jace, or a Baral has been incredibly important and often game defining. That's not to mention that they aren't blank cards on turn twenty, they're not great but they still do something while IoK or thoughtseize are actually dead cards.
Damn your list looks neat! Im glad you picked up on Vendilion Clique They are just great (my promo version even more xD). I really like the 2-3 fast land as well... i'm gonna have to try thought erasure if you say its so great. Do you think tasigur is really necessary without Thought Scour ? I feel like some other card would do so much better here (I run JVP instead but im not convinced either)
Also, what do you think about running 1 of the new Ral Planeswalker instead of the ultimatum, its much easier on mana, can kill pretty much anything in the format and draw cards... He's not teferi but so much better than jace in our deck IMO! -8 is also just GG
Damn your list looks neat! Im glad you picked up on Vendilion Clique They are just great (my promo version even more xD). I really like the 2-3 fast land as well... i'm gonna have to try thought erasure if you say its so great. Do you think tasigur is really necessary without Thought Scour ? I feel like some other card would do so much better here (I run JVP instead but im not convinced either)
Also, what do you think about running 1 of the new Ral Planeswalker instead of the ultimatum, its much easier on mana, can kill pretty much anything in the format and draw cards... He's not teferi but so much better than jace in our deck IMO! -8 is also just GG
Tasigur is fine without scours actually. You can think of him the same way that UW approaches Teferi, he's a three mana spell that you have to wait a turn to cast. I regularly cast him on turn three or four after fetching and interacting without any trouble. But not having scour makes him much worse against remand and reflector mage, but those cards aren't a big concern right now. Humans is already a great match up for us and I don't mind them spending time to bounce him as that doesn't add much power to the board for them. It's pretty rare that I need Tas to stabilize the board, just doom blade everything and he'll stick eventually.
As for Ral, I don't really like him in modern, he is just too expensive for too little of an effect. Perhaps if his minus could be pointed at their head I'd be more high on him as a draw engine plus win condition combo, but alas. Cruel and Bolas flips at least ends the game on the spot and if I wanted a five mana advantage bomb to cast I'd just stick with Keranos, god of storms. He has never been bad in modern and is super difficult to answer with celestial purge being one of the only clean answers. He is even immune to the trophy which is a big plus for him as well.
Do you mean because GBx will be running Assassin's Trophy? Because I can assure you, them shooting our Azcanta with it is a non-issue. I have said this before, and I have tested quite a bit against GBx. 2 scenarios: 1) they shoot down Azcanta early (turn 2-3) to dodge our countermagic, in which case we get an untapped land that puts us WAY up in tempo (curving into KCommand, Cryptic or Snap-spell is game-winning against GBx). 2) they wait to not give us this tempo advantage early, in which case it becomes trivial to protect our Azcanta with discard/counter magic.
From my experience, Assassin's Trophy is NOT a reason to not run Azcanta. The compensation we get is enough by far. (on that note, Spell Snare is sure to be a powerhose going foward, because it hits A's T specifically and is great against GBx in general).
EDIT: my build may be better equipped to capitalize on that tempo gain because it's geared more towards tempo than just pure grinding.
I am also not sold on Thought Erasure. Might just prove too slow and clunky against faster decks.
Concerning your deck in general: You are obviously going for the late game hard, which is fine. You're well equipped to pulverize midrange and control. The big ifs will be combo decks, big mana and hyper aggro decks, all three of which you honestly don't seem very well positioned against. e.g. hands full of Erasures, maybe Ultimatum, an Ancestral and a threat will instantly die to faster decks. I'm not saying other grixis builds cant clunk up like that, it just seems much more likely for yours.
I'm not worried about trophy hitting search on turn two or three. I'm worried about it getting hit on turn ten where the extra land doesn't matter any more which is when it's going to be cast by anybody that's aware of the downside. I'm not going to assume all of my opponents are are going to play poorly and give me a free land and a card from their hand right at the start of the game. Not to mention that field can just hit azcanta and only getting one card from it is still a real loss for us. Perhaps if my deck was heavier on threats then I wouldn't care as much about not having a consistent advantage, but as you mentioned this is a hard control deck and not staying up on resources is a problem.
Thought erasure being "clunky" against the mega hyper aggro decks is only barely true, but it still does some work against them and is miles better than cryptic in those games. I personally hate cryptic against a lot of modern decks and side it out for this very reason like humans and trim some against scales affinity and spirits. Erasure at least does something early against them. Meanwhile the thoughtseize with value added actually makes the combo matches much better when combined with the rest of my hand disruption so those matches aren't as bad as you would think. Seriously, just try erasure and you'll see it's not as bad as you think. I'd much rather have proper thoughtseize of course, but we can't afford the life loss or a 100% dead card in the late game or I'd be on four every day. The two life isn't free and the Surveil 1 is a real benefit.
The only big mana deck that worries me is tron because they win on turn three and there's no help for that which we can rationally main deck so that's not worth considering. Any of the primevil titan decks are still super easy, even game one, because of the permission and erasure also does a lot of work there as well. The same goes for storm and kci where all the right tools exist in the deck. But just like any control deck in modern we have to not draw ten doom blades against combo and we're live to win the first game while post board things get incredibly good for us.
All of this is before unmoored ego gets sided in which has been a house against all the random nonsense that I used to struggle with such as ad nauseum or totally random loam decks. It does a fantastic job of patching up the holes that control has against "the weird" in modern.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I just discussed Thought Erasure with a couple guys who go to big modern tourneys regularly, one on grixis, one on jund. They know a lot more than I do about modern, the current meta etc, one writes for Modern Nexus, and there is concensus that the card is borderline unplayable.
I also don't get the "is better than cryptic" thing. If you're casting Erasure against Afinity, Burn, Infect, Hollow One, Dredge, Dredgevine, or Spirits, it's a losing play because you simply cant afford to durdle like that. Those are the matchups the Grixis Archetype struggles most against, and Erasure does nothing to make them better.
This is a rule I have when assessing cards: does it help my bad matchups? e.g. I dont care about cards that are good gainst UW Control, Storm, Elves, or GBx. Those matchups are by far good enough.
Against fast decks, the additional 1cmc will cost you far more than 2 life. There are so many examples: thoughtseize + removal spell (e.g. hitting a Flameblade Adept vs just casting Erasure: erasure nets you 2 life compared to Seize. The removal spell you cast alongside Seize probably nets you 4-5 life. Another: you having to choose between removing a mana dork (which is a must most of the time) and disrupting their hand and being able to do woth. I'm sure you've heard about the rule of thumb that turn 1-3 are the most important ones in any match, for control decks too, and the deck that is ahead on turn 4 is overwhelmingly likely to win the match. Running a 2cmc discard spell is such a massive tempo loss that, if you will, it decreases your chance significantly of being ahead on turn 4. Including turn 4, you have access to 10 mana optimally, 9 effectively (by either missing a land drop or casting a tapped land like a manland). the cost of Erasure deprives you of 11% of your resources (16,6% if you exclude turn 4). Burn WANTS you to run cards like that. Thats how they win. You trading down in tempo.
I dont mean to sound arrogant, but I think (and everybody I've talked to about this agrees) that Erasure is a bad card and gets punished hard by fast decks.
One of the best plays when running Snap alongside discard is discard into t3 snap-discard. not possible with Erasure.
I expect that erasure will make you mulligan more, will loose you games to faster decks, and that you will side it out a lot.
PS: If GBx takes care of your Azcanta on turn 10, you've already won 3 times over. The card is that strong. But again, this may be specific to my build, as i can push the flip early with thought scour. Its very common for it to flip on turn 4, and once it flips, even if they have Trophy for it, the damage is done. Say it flips on turn 5. I've scried off it 3 times, which is commonly valued at 1,5 cards. It flips on turn 5, so even if they try to kill it in my upkeep, i have 5 mana open, which means i can either protect it and hold up a counter/removal spell for their next play, or activate it, get a clean 2for1 (land + spell) AND hold up 2 mana, again for counter magic or removal. Adding the scry, azcanta has been a 3,5 for 1, and GBx is usually so far behind the game is over.
If you think Assassin's Trophy takes care of Azcanta cleanly in any stage of the game, that means you have no actual experience with it. The scry alone every turn can be enough to beat GBx handily. I have tested it a ton, so you might as well take my word for it. I've tested it to death. I'm not saying you should run it, but it's often my best card in grindy matchups.
All that said, you're free to build your deck however you like. If it works for you (i.e. you win more than you loose and the deck is fun to pilot), more power to you. I haven't tested Erasure, so I cant speak from experience. The best thing you can do is record your matches/wins-losses etc in a spreadsheet. It will give you a lot of clarity about how your deck is actually performing (it did for me, and made obvious what needed changing).
I'm not saying erasure is better than cryptic and definitely not in a general sense. I'm simply stating that in the games where cryptic is too slow to have an impact erasure is more likely to do something. It might not be a great something, but it will be useful before you die. Please don't make the "if you don't agree with X then you have no experience with it" claims, not only is that never a valid argument, it always comes off as incredibly condescending. Not saying that is your intent of course, but this is the internet and that is how those sorts of statements always sound when you are only communicating through text. Not being rude at all, just a heads up. Also I'm not saying that your experiences are wrong or never happened, but they have not matched my experiences as often as they differ.
Different people have different experiences and in my games against BGx it isn't uncommon for them to out grind me when I can't keep azcanta around for a couple turns. I don't care if I got a few filters off of it and a single card that might or might not be impactful, it has to stick around to keep my head above water. However a single cast of AV is enough to win the majority of fair matches, especially the ones where search is easily answered. Against the fast decks I almost never have the time to cast a spell that doesn't interact, but I can usually find a single mana to spare to drop an AV and sink the rest of my time and resources into interaction.
Lastly I have been keeping notes of the games I've played with my current list and have been paying attention to the games where a different discard spell would have made a difference in the outcome and so far erasure would have preformed better than IoK or brutality overall. This is from the last several PPTQs and IQs I've played in so the format as a whole is different, but the individual games and situations where I was casting them I would have preferred erasure to what I currently have more often than not. Different cards are just different, and there are times where one is miles better than the other but this is just an over all average of what I have found myself needing in order to change the outcome of the game.
One final thing on looking at new cards with in-game context is unmoored ego. I have found in the admittedly few games I've had against GY aggro decks casting it on turn five isn't as bad as I initially thought. Obviously it isn't amazing, but I have noticed that I could still engineer a situation where it has a strong impact. My first thoughts were that it would be fine on three but completely blank after that, but doesn't seem to always be the case. However in the games that I have been actively testing it has been a very solid card outside of the turn 1-2 "look at me I'm so skilled" draws where only surgical and leyline would do anything at all. Still hopeful with this addition.
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I don't know how Thought Erasure can be justified in Modern. In a format where you need to answer the board quickly in half your matches, a 2 mana discard is just off. The only 2 mana "discard" playable and still isn't run in very large numbers is collective brutality, and only because you can actually do multiple things on turn 2 with it, or just do the most relevant thing with it, like killing a t2 Devoted Druid. If I were going to run a 2 mana discard or sorcery spell, I would play 4 copies of Collective before I considered the first copy of Erasure. If my meta asks for targeted discard, it would be IOK or TS first.
The surveil is just icing on a cake; if the cake isn't any good, the icing doesn't do much to attract me. This card can go in a surveil themed deck in standard, but I do not consider it playable in Modern.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
As much as I agree with you on the fact that a 2 mana discard is too slow for modern, i still want to test the card because Thoughtseize is not the card i want to be playing in my deck either...
I will probably be testing 1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy too this weekend. I always wanted a ''bomb'' planewalker and Jace, The Mind Sculptor just doesn't do it for me. I will have to ajust my main deck to pack a lot of 1 to 3 cmc. I want to be controling the board as well as the hand so 4-5 discards + Vendilion Clique + Rise // Fall and at least 3 kill spells + 4 Lightning bolt + 4 Kolaghan's Command. My only 4cmc will be Nicol Bolas, The Ravager and 5 cmc 1 Ral... This list will be low to the ground but so much value. I am convinced this is the way to go, no Cryptic Command as they are clunky, hurts our mana base, force us to not tap out and are late game oriented (where we are strong already)
Of course, it all depends on the new meta when Assassin's Trophy comes out... I might even consider Ancestral Vision main deck for card advantage.
I'll keep you guys updated and post my list once it's clean enough
EDIT: on the Cryptic topic ... look at the TOP 12 decks on MtgGoldFish and tell me where we want Cryptic :
Humans : no
UW control : sure
Burn : not worth (need triple blue, probly gonna take damage for it)
HScales : no
Spirits : no
Tron : yes (probly the only Matchup where it really hurts me)
Hollow one : no
Jund : not really
Storm : heh ...
Jeskai control : OK
Mardu pyro : not really
BridgeVine : no
Overall 3 matchups out of 12 where i like Cryptic Command... Am i wrong ?
EDIT: on the Cryptic topic ... look at the TOP 12 decks on MtgGoldFish and tell me where we want Cryptic :
Humans : no
UW control : sure
Burn : not worth (need triple blue, probly gonna take damage for it)
HScales : no
Spirits : no
Tron : yes (probly the only Matchup where it really hurts me)
Hollow one : no
Jund : not really
Storm : heh ...
Jeskai control : OK
Mardu pyro : not really
BridgeVine : no
Overall 3 matchups out of 12 where i like Cryptic Command... Am i wrong ?
I disagree with the sentiment of "we're good in the late game so we don't need X late game card so it should be cut." The reason we're good in the late game is because of these powerful cards, not in spite of them. Naturally there is a point where it's overkill, but the more you cut cryptics, Kommands, and AV/Search the worse you are passed turn ten. Deciding to cut cards because they do what the deck is trying to do doesn't make much sense when you aren't replacing them with something that is at the very least a compromise so that you don't lose your edge where you're supposed to have one.
I also don't agree with most of your assessments on where cryptic is good or not. Of the decks you listed that you say you don't want cryptic, here are the ones I believe this is incorrect: Jund, Storm, Mardu pyro, HScales, Spirits, Burn. That brings your count up to 9/12 decks where I believe that cryptic is good. Granted the range of fine to awesome varies on each deck, but cryptic is good enough in each of those matches that I'd only trim a copy at most. Let me give you a brief deck by deck run down on why I think cryptic is either great or just worth having against each of them.
Jund/Mardu: I combined these two because they are effectively the same strategy of thoughtseize midrange. These matches always come to a top deck war with only one or two cards from their deck that are real swingy plays. You need cryptic to stop them or at the very least to maintain parity. In super long attrition battles any form of 2-for-1 is valuable and that's exactly what cryptic is. Not to mention the many novel situations you find yourself in and the versatility is incredibly good here.
Storm: The less discard you have the more you're going to be leaning on permission and cryptic counters spells. Even though it isn't especially efficient as a counter spell, you still need to have one for every cast of past in flames or gifts ungiven. Card advantage is also important here post board because they are well equipped to go the distance with us and once again cryptic fulfills both roles of protection and advantage.
Hardened scales: As the name implies this is different than the traditional affinity lists. Against the classic version of affinity I would cut all of my cryptics because you needed stuff on turn two or three and anything past that was meaningless as their cards simply stopped mattering. This isn't true at all of the scales versions. A ballista on turn two is whatever, but one on turn seven is a big problem. The same goes for hanger back and ravagers, the deck just has a lot more late game than before. I take the approach of trying to stop the pay offs rather than the enablers which means I always want some number of hard counters in my deck.
Spirits: The only reason why cryptic is bad here is because of spell queller, outside of that it's another 2-for-1 that we can lean on to stay ahead. So few of their cards are dangerous, but the ones that are we really want to have a cryptic for because even on turn 20 they can turn the game around in a hurry.
Burn: So few of our cards actually do anything in this match up and cryptic does something. Four is a massive amount for a glorified cancel, but all we want are two to three kill spells and then a bunch of permission with a single threat to ride. Again, it's not great but I'd always rather have a cryptic than a Kommand, jace, or ancestral.
TL;DR: Versatility is important in modern and our goal is to get ahead on cards. Cryptic does both.
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As much as I like Cryptic Command (i own 8 copies paper including 3 foils), i just think that it doesnt fit our colors as its VERY mana intensive and we want to play tapout cards like discard spells and creatures (unlike jeskai or UW)
As for the stated matchups, wouldnt you say that a more proactive list is better? I really like Rise // Fall personnaly. Against low land count decks it's just fantastic to make them discard 2. In the later game, bringing back a snapcaster mage and bouncing a big creature is just insane. I never lost (yet out of 6 games) to Hardened Scales so i'm not even gonna consider that
In the last SCG, i was playing against jeskai and he tap out for Baneslayer Angel, i have no cards left in hand... Top deck Rise // Fall, bounce his Angel and bring back Snap, Snap fall to make him discard his angel + an extra copy of cryptic. How sweet is that ?
Playing Cryptic in your deck restricts you on those cards as you can never tap out for anything.
* Post not meant to offense , each his opinion I guess :), but I'll keep my Cryptics in my jeskai deck
EDIT : Jim Davis (who is a pro-player) also hate Cryptic command (even in Jeskai where it's better than in Grixis). I'm not alone at least
Hi all, thinking about getting into this archetype. How do you guys feel about this deck's positioning post-GRN? I'm thinking about starting out by testing a list like this: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28383&iddeck=232250
I have most of the cards but I'm curious as to feedback before I take the plunge to purchase the remainder of the cards (namely Jace). Also, are there any other websites/groups/resources that actively discuss Grixis Control in Modern?
To those curious about splashing trophy in grixis (I know you're out there) I decided to get in a handful of matches today/yesterday with it. I'm never afraid of testing things that seem weird or bad just to confirm my thoughts after all. I played a mostly standard list with a forest over a third field and an overgrown tomb over a creeping tar pit and cut terminate and dreadbore for the trophies. I'll be honest it seems awesome on paper, but in practice it just wasn't worth it at all. In the games where it was my only kill spell early the land was a big deal and the times where I hit something I normally couldn't it either didn't matter or the damage was done by it resolving. The one exception to that was blood moon, but splashing a fourth color to answer it isn't where we want to be.
Furthermore the mana was incredibly awkward and ended up being extremely painful. It made cryptic a nonstarter when I needed green early and knot was basically impossible to cast on curve several times. All in all I gave it a real shot and it isn't worth stretching the deck to fit it. Such a shame that we don't get to run it, but that's the way it goes. So take my word for it or try it yourself, but it's cost is far higher than we are able to pay.
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Hey guys I've been testing with grixis a ton lately trying to take it to GP Portland if I can find a list I'm confident in. (or if I can borrow bridgevine from someone I'm likely to play that haha) I feel like the deck is so close to being tiered, but the build just hasn't been found yet. Here's my most recent take (minus the ultimatum) I think there are a ton of good ideas floating around. Personally I've been very underwhelmed with logic knot, it's preformed super poorly in almost every MU and i board it out a lot. I was on thought scours until just recently swapping back to serum, I've honestly yet to test them. Keranos and bolas AND obstructionist have been absolutely insane. I could go on and on about each card and how I think it fits into the deck, if anyone wants I'd be fine to elaborate.
I'd love to get some feedback on some of my choices!
EDIT: I'm going to just assume that you and I have simply had wildly different experience with the variance of the game. Perhaps your opponents ran exceptionally well or mine especially bad. When spirits has the right disruption at the right time with a CoCo to top it off the deck looks unebatable, but that does need a lot to go right. All I can say for certain is that I've never had a problem when I focus on not running face first into their disruption in the opening turns.
Try trimming some of your counterspells main deck to add discard effects, its great against them
Discard sucks for me because it lets you play around my combat/hexproof tricks with more known information. Discard into discard + push can take a TON of wind out of my sails.
Try interacting on my turn. I.e. Bolt the queller to get them to pull the trigger on coco or something similar and make them spend resources on the spirit players turn. Then untap and clean up with a sweeper or 2+ for 1. Local guy commonly points removal at a key spirit and I have think of what he's going to do when he gets to untap.
Prioritize spirits. Rattlechains and wanderer aren't they threatening. drogskol captain, queller, and Geist. The deck only has 10ish significant threats. I wouldn't even say supreme phantom is all that big of a deal usually if you manage the field well.
Don't waste resources on vial if you're playing against those builds. I'm never unhappy to see an opponent waste resources AND a card to kill my vials.
Boy did I have a rough night! You can see the details in the link I shared above, but basically I went 0-2 against Tron (first match up had to be tron, obviously) 1-2 against UWR Ad Nauseam (I should have won this match up, chose my counters poorly), and went 1-1-1 against Orzhov Value Town? (all I saw initially was Lilly of the Veils and tons of Thoguhtseize/Inquisition, second game I steamed ahead and even managed to flip Bolas, last game I got flooded with tokens that I wasn't expecting and hadn't sideboarded in my Izzet Staticasters or Anger of the Gods).
Anyways, I had a bad night - I think mostly because as a control player you have to know your match ups, and being new to modern I do not. I thought I'd get a better feel from all the videos I watched but really the only thing I recognized was Tron, which I think in general is just a bad match up. If y'all don't mind I would appreciate feedback on my deck list or even tips on what I should look out for and how I can become a better modern player.
Thanks!
Welcome to the Grixis Cabal! Best advice I can give you to get better in modern in general is to lose. A lot. And you're already starting on that so good job, hehe! Seriously, it just takes time to get the experience required to know what is important and when. It's the same as control in standard except you have a lot more decks, threats, and answers to consider. Even though Corey's videos are very dated at this point, they're still a good resource for somebody new to the deck to learn some of the unique play patterns we have available to us.
Your deck list is mostly fine, albeit a touch heavy on the discard. The biggest suggestion that I'll insist on is to cut the electrolyzes for almost anything else. You get really choked at three mana between them Kommand and snaps which makes it too difficult to deploy your spells effectively. I'd recommend some tasigur's and scours and perhaps an extra land. I've never liked 3x Field with only 24 total lands personally. I don't know if you have any budget or card availability concerns, but I'd like to see something like this to start with:
-1 Bolas
-4 Electrolyze
-1 IoK
-1 Seize
+2 tasigur
+3 thought scour
+1 fatal push
+1 darkslick shores
And tron is indeed The Enemy.
So:
-1 Bolas
-4 Electrolyze
-2 IoK
-1 FoR
+4 Serum Vision
+2 Vclique
+1 Kcommand
+1 Scalding Tarn
But the tasigur version is also fine... just dépends on what your meta is and what you enjoy playing.
I'd say that this is most likely a product of the format as a whole coalescing into a few very narrow archetypes and heavily pushing out every other deck. Two graveyard aggro decks, two control (not including grixis), two disruptive aggro, two spell combo, and then there's always tron. And it just so happens that two of them we crush, one is slightly good for us, and the other two just curb stomp us. Everything else in the format just instantly rolls over dead against at least half of those decks. This means that our SB can be very focused and we can mostly ignore everything else that can show up in an open field.
I just need that last scalding tarn. I have the rest. I’ll report back on how I do next Wednesday. I’ll try not to be discouraged by losing, it is the best way to learn!
1 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendilion Clique
Durdles
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Cruel Ultimatum
Removal
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Dreadbore
2 Terminate
1 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Non-Creature Interaction
3 Thought Erasure
2 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
3 Cryptic Command
1 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Unmoored Ego
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
The ultimatum can be traded for a glimmer of genius or another bolas, but I do want it to be a draw spell or haymaker effect and prefer it to not be a permanent, especially not search for azcanta as that card is under heavy assault right now. Most cards that could fit into this spot are going to be bad against combo by default, so I'd like one that has the highest upside and so far ultimatum has been fine meeting those requirements.
The hand disruption package has been phenomenal between clique and erasure. Between that and the permission it has made the combo decks quite easily managed in the first game when I don't just 'get got' on turn three. Postboard it has been great with Ego as a trump card in many different matches. Even though it can be too slow against tron on the draw, if they don't have it assembled on board by three the game just ends and I'm ok with that.
Still zero cantrips in the deck and I haven't missed them. The surveil from erasure fulfills the role of making sure you have lands coming when you need them and business when you don't quite well. The fact that they can take a CoCo, Jace, or a Baral has been incredibly important and often game defining. That's not to mention that they aren't blank cards on turn twenty, they're not great but they still do something while IoK or thoughtseize are actually dead cards.
Damn your list looks neat! Im glad you picked up on Vendilion Clique
Also, what do you think about running 1 of the new Ral Planeswalker instead of the ultimatum, its much easier on mana, can kill pretty much anything in the format and draw cards... He's not teferi but so much better than jace in our deck IMO! -8 is also just GG
Tasigur is fine without scours actually. You can think of him the same way that UW approaches Teferi, he's a three mana spell that you have to wait a turn to cast. I regularly cast him on turn three or four after fetching and interacting without any trouble. But not having scour makes him much worse against remand and reflector mage, but those cards aren't a big concern right now. Humans is already a great match up for us and I don't mind them spending time to bounce him as that doesn't add much power to the board for them. It's pretty rare that I need Tas to stabilize the board, just doom blade everything and he'll stick eventually.
As for Ral, I don't really like him in modern, he is just too expensive for too little of an effect. Perhaps if his minus could be pointed at their head I'd be more high on him as a draw engine plus win condition combo, but alas. Cruel and Bolas flips at least ends the game on the spot and if I wanted a five mana advantage bomb to cast I'd just stick with Keranos, god of storms. He has never been bad in modern and is super difficult to answer with celestial purge being one of the only clean answers. He is even immune to the trophy which is a big plus for him as well.
I'm not worried about trophy hitting search on turn two or three. I'm worried about it getting hit on turn ten where the extra land doesn't matter any more which is when it's going to be cast by anybody that's aware of the downside. I'm not going to assume all of my opponents are are going to play poorly and give me a free land and a card from their hand right at the start of the game. Not to mention that field can just hit azcanta and only getting one card from it is still a real loss for us. Perhaps if my deck was heavier on threats then I wouldn't care as much about not having a consistent advantage, but as you mentioned this is a hard control deck and not staying up on resources is a problem.
Thought erasure being "clunky" against the mega hyper aggro decks is only barely true, but it still does some work against them and is miles better than cryptic in those games. I personally hate cryptic against a lot of modern decks and side it out for this very reason like humans and trim some against scales affinity and spirits. Erasure at least does something early against them. Meanwhile the thoughtseize with value added actually makes the combo matches much better when combined with the rest of my hand disruption so those matches aren't as bad as you would think. Seriously, just try erasure and you'll see it's not as bad as you think. I'd much rather have proper thoughtseize of course, but we can't afford the life loss or a 100% dead card in the late game or I'd be on four every day. The two life isn't free and the Surveil 1 is a real benefit.
The only big mana deck that worries me is tron because they win on turn three and there's no help for that which we can rationally main deck so that's not worth considering. Any of the primevil titan decks are still super easy, even game one, because of the permission and erasure also does a lot of work there as well. The same goes for storm and kci where all the right tools exist in the deck. But just like any control deck in modern we have to not draw ten doom blades against combo and we're live to win the first game while post board things get incredibly good for us.
All of this is before unmoored ego gets sided in which has been a house against all the random nonsense that I used to struggle with such as ad nauseum or totally random loam decks. It does a fantastic job of patching up the holes that control has against "the weird" in modern.
I'm not saying erasure is better than cryptic and definitely not in a general sense. I'm simply stating that in the games where cryptic is too slow to have an impact erasure is more likely to do something. It might not be a great something, but it will be useful before you die. Please don't make the "if you don't agree with X then you have no experience with it" claims, not only is that never a valid argument, it always comes off as incredibly condescending. Not saying that is your intent of course, but this is the internet and that is how those sorts of statements always sound when you are only communicating through text. Not being rude at all, just a heads up. Also I'm not saying that your experiences are wrong or never happened, but they have not matched my experiences as often as they differ.
Different people have different experiences and in my games against BGx it isn't uncommon for them to out grind me when I can't keep azcanta around for a couple turns. I don't care if I got a few filters off of it and a single card that might or might not be impactful, it has to stick around to keep my head above water. However a single cast of AV is enough to win the majority of fair matches, especially the ones where search is easily answered. Against the fast decks I almost never have the time to cast a spell that doesn't interact, but I can usually find a single mana to spare to drop an AV and sink the rest of my time and resources into interaction.
Lastly I have been keeping notes of the games I've played with my current list and have been paying attention to the games where a different discard spell would have made a difference in the outcome and so far erasure would have preformed better than IoK or brutality overall. This is from the last several PPTQs and IQs I've played in so the format as a whole is different, but the individual games and situations where I was casting them I would have preferred erasure to what I currently have more often than not. Different cards are just different, and there are times where one is miles better than the other but this is just an over all average of what I have found myself needing in order to change the outcome of the game.
One final thing on looking at new cards with in-game context is unmoored ego. I have found in the admittedly few games I've had against GY aggro decks casting it on turn five isn't as bad as I initially thought. Obviously it isn't amazing, but I have noticed that I could still engineer a situation where it has a strong impact. My first thoughts were that it would be fine on three but completely blank after that, but doesn't seem to always be the case. However in the games that I have been actively testing it has been a very solid card outside of the turn 1-2 "look at me I'm so skilled" draws where only surgical and leyline would do anything at all. Still hopeful with this addition.
The surveil is just icing on a cake; if the cake isn't any good, the icing doesn't do much to attract me. This card can go in a surveil themed deck in standard, but I do not consider it playable in Modern.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I will probably be testing 1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy too this weekend. I always wanted a ''bomb'' planewalker and Jace, The Mind Sculptor just doesn't do it for me. I will have to ajust my main deck to pack a lot of 1 to 3 cmc. I want to be controling the board as well as the hand so 4-5 discards + Vendilion Clique + Rise // Fall and at least 3 kill spells + 4 Lightning bolt + 4 Kolaghan's Command. My only 4cmc will be Nicol Bolas, The Ravager and 5 cmc 1 Ral... This list will be low to the ground but so much value. I am convinced this is the way to go, no Cryptic Command as they are clunky, hurts our mana base, force us to not tap out and are late game oriented (where we are strong already)
Of course, it all depends on the new meta when Assassin's Trophy comes out... I might even consider Ancestral Vision main deck for card advantage.
I'll keep you guys updated and post my list once it's clean enough
EDIT: on the Cryptic topic ... look at the TOP 12 decks on MtgGoldFish and tell me where we want Cryptic :
Humans : no
UW control : sure
Burn : not worth (need triple blue, probly gonna take damage for it)
HScales : no
Spirits : no
Tron : yes (probly the only Matchup where it really hurts me)
Hollow one : no
Jund : not really
Storm : heh ...
Jeskai control : OK
Mardu pyro : not really
BridgeVine : no
Overall 3 matchups out of 12 where i like Cryptic Command... Am i wrong ?
I disagree with the sentiment of "we're good in the late game so we don't need X late game card so it should be cut." The reason we're good in the late game is because of these powerful cards, not in spite of them. Naturally there is a point where it's overkill, but the more you cut cryptics, Kommands, and AV/Search the worse you are passed turn ten. Deciding to cut cards because they do what the deck is trying to do doesn't make much sense when you aren't replacing them with something that is at the very least a compromise so that you don't lose your edge where you're supposed to have one.
I also don't agree with most of your assessments on where cryptic is good or not. Of the decks you listed that you say you don't want cryptic, here are the ones I believe this is incorrect: Jund, Storm, Mardu pyro, HScales, Spirits, Burn. That brings your count up to 9/12 decks where I believe that cryptic is good. Granted the range of fine to awesome varies on each deck, but cryptic is good enough in each of those matches that I'd only trim a copy at most. Let me give you a brief deck by deck run down on why I think cryptic is either great or just worth having against each of them.
Storm: The less discard you have the more you're going to be leaning on permission and cryptic counters spells. Even though it isn't especially efficient as a counter spell, you still need to have one for every cast of past in flames or gifts ungiven. Card advantage is also important here post board because they are well equipped to go the distance with us and once again cryptic fulfills both roles of protection and advantage.
Hardened scales: As the name implies this is different than the traditional affinity lists. Against the classic version of affinity I would cut all of my cryptics because you needed stuff on turn two or three and anything past that was meaningless as their cards simply stopped mattering. This isn't true at all of the scales versions. A ballista on turn two is whatever, but one on turn seven is a big problem. The same goes for hanger back and ravagers, the deck just has a lot more late game than before. I take the approach of trying to stop the pay offs rather than the enablers which means I always want some number of hard counters in my deck.
Spirits: The only reason why cryptic is bad here is because of spell queller, outside of that it's another 2-for-1 that we can lean on to stay ahead. So few of their cards are dangerous, but the ones that are we really want to have a cryptic for because even on turn 20 they can turn the game around in a hurry.
Burn: So few of our cards actually do anything in this match up and cryptic does something. Four is a massive amount for a glorified cancel, but all we want are two to three kill spells and then a bunch of permission with a single threat to ride. Again, it's not great but I'd always rather have a cryptic than a Kommand, jace, or ancestral.
TL;DR: Versatility is important in modern and our goal is to get ahead on cards. Cryptic does both.
As for the stated matchups, wouldnt you say that a more proactive list is better? I really like Rise // Fall personnaly. Against low land count decks it's just fantastic to make them discard 2. In the later game, bringing back a snapcaster mage and bouncing a big creature is just insane. I never lost (yet out of 6 games) to Hardened Scales so i'm not even gonna consider that
In the last SCG, i was playing against jeskai and he tap out for Baneslayer Angel, i have no cards left in hand... Top deck Rise // Fall, bounce his Angel and bring back Snap, Snap fall to make him discard his angel + an extra copy of cryptic. How sweet is that ?
Playing Cryptic in your deck restricts you on those cards as you can never tap out for anything.
* Post not meant to offense , each his opinion I guess :), but I'll keep my Cryptics in my jeskai deck
EDIT : Jim Davis (who is a pro-player) also hate Cryptic command (even in Jeskai where it's better than in Grixis). I'm not alone at least
Ty !
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28383&iddeck=232250
I have most of the cards but I'm curious as to feedback before I take the plunge to purchase the remainder of the cards (namely Jace). Also, are there any other websites/groups/resources that actively discuss Grixis Control in Modern?
Furthermore the mana was incredibly awkward and ended up being extremely painful. It made cryptic a nonstarter when I needed green early and knot was basically impossible to cast on curve several times. All in all I gave it a real shot and it isn't worth stretching the deck to fit it. Such a shame that we don't get to run it, but that's the way it goes. So take my word for it or try it yourself, but it's cost is far higher than we are able to pay.
I'd love to get some feedback on some of my choices!
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Field of Ruin
1 Graven Cairns
3 Island
2 Watery Grave
3 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Terminate
Permission
3 Cryptic Command
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Rise // Fall
1 Spell Snare
Spice
1 Cruel Ultimatum
Wheel Spinning
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Consume the Meek
1 Countersquall
1 Damnation
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Shriekmaw
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unmoored Ego