Here's my list. I would like to find room for my 2nd Creeping Tarpit and a Blackcleave Cliffs but not sure of which lands to ditch. I would also like to fit 1-2 copies of Electrolyze for there's a BW Tokens player that I go against frequently. On the topic can someone help me with my manabase? I would like to cast T1 IoK without going Fetch->Shock and doing 3 to myself somewhat reliably.
All I have to say about sideboarding is that I usually sideboard different each time I do it. It depends on what list I'm against, not only the archetype itself.
The magma spray is powerhouse against voice of resurgence and kitchen finks (melira combo, junk..). I do like it a lot. Also works as lightning for bird if needed but I recommend waiting for one of it's main targets.
Slay works very well vs abzan. One extra mana it's not problematic an you keep on with card advantage. I'm testing at the moment tribute to hunger and it works fine against boggles or any 5 thoughtness body.
Anger of the gods is always needed, and I also get damnation in, not langish, because I want to kill rhinos too.
+1 Magma spray / -1 Lightning bolt
+1 Slay / -1 Remand
+1 Damnation / -1 Dispel
+1 Anger of the gods / -1 Cryptic Command
+1 Countersquall / -1 Mana Leak
One of the main reasons because I don't usually share my sideboarding is because now someone who really know how to play say that I'm completely wrong. And he'd probably be right because I've been playing for 14 months now.
Anyways, the list performs extremely well (24-3 at the moment, lost to the mentioned Naya Zoo, Burn and Boggles, and won against almost every midrange and fair deck of the format with total superiority).
If you want something else I'll try to explain. Btw I'm testing the bunch of lists of top 32 GP OKC with Jaces everywhere, not happy enought by now.
I don't understand why we're not discussing Jace lists in the same thread. They're almost identical lists with Liliana and Jace, generally. You realize that decklists are intended to evolve and change with the meta, right? Splintering discussion into several different threads and refusing to accept changes to the 'main' list isn't conducive to experimentation and growth, like...at all. Zomfshark's list isn't even as large of a departure as someone like Michael Majors has been running. He's literally just running our stock Grixis Control but adding Jace. Why is that not something that's up for discussion here?
Are new card additions not allowed in the deck? Do we have to just keep reconfiguring the same 75 cards over and over again and talking about how sweet our slightly-different list is?
Here's my list. I would like to find room for my 2nd Creeping Tarpit and a Blackcleave Cliffs but not sure of which lands to ditch. I would also like to fit 1-2 copies of Electrolyze for there's a BW Tokens player that I go against frequently. On the topic can someone help me with my manabase? I would like to cast T1 IoK without going Fetch->Shock and doing 3 to myself somewhat reliably.
I also want to fix up my manabase to accompany these changes.
I recommend you cut a Steam Vents for the second Tar Pit. Most of our lists have settled on 2 Steam Vents. I assume you're looking at Blackcleave for more frequent turn 1 Inquisitions, yes? I feel like there aren't any good cuts for this, unless you wanted to cut a Darkslick Shores. You should also probably be running the 4 Scalding Tarns, but I can understand if you just don't have them for budget reasons. Cut a Kolaghan's Command if you want an Electrolyze.
This is because the addition of Jace, particularly as a 4 of, starts to really change the way the deck functions. Jace excels with sorcery-speed spells and thus like to be paired with more discard affects and a more main-phase oriented playstyle. Once tilting your deck to accommodate jace, it shifts on the spectrum to less of a control deck and more towards a midrange deck. This is why most of the people on this thread want jace-oriented lists separate, and I agree with them. Once you start putting liliana's in, you've shifted from Control to Midrange.
See this illustration, the addition of Jace moves the list much closer to aggro-rock.
This deck is already just a mid-range deck that got misnamed "Control" anyway. I don't understand what the fuss is about. The previous list is almost identical to stock lists but with Inquisitions and Jaces. If I posted a list that ran Inquisitions would I be told to take it somewhere else because it's a sorcery-speed answer?
This deck is already just a mid-range deck that got misnamed "Control" anyway. I don't understand what the fuss is about. The previous list is almost identical to stock lists but with Inquisitions and Jaces. If I posted a list that ran Inquisitions would I be told to take it somewhere else because it's a sorcery-speed answer?
Inquisition seems more like a question rather than an answer.
The decks play pretty differently. The other deck doesn't run countermagic, runs 3-4 Abbots and 3-4 jaces in general with 2-3 lilis, and is a deck built to abuse Rise // Fall and Kolaghan's Command outvaluing opponents.
This decks does a similar thing with more elements of control, rather than focusing on doing everything during your own turn, in here we want to interact during opponents turn as well, which the 'Blue Jund' deck doesn't really care about, as playing at instant speed makes Jace a worse card.
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I almost feel like there should just be two threads - reactive and proactive Grixis. The lists are VERY different and function on very different axes and if we don't continue to separate discussion it WILL get confusing to constantly re-reference which deck someone is talking about. If you do have something to say about Jace and Inquisition, what's so hard about taking it to the other thread? The people building shells around those cards will be better prepared to give accurate feedback based on their testing, while the stock list over here is (honestly pretty outdated by this point) not functioning in a way that takes full use of either Jace or Inquisition. So let's say hypothetically you DO want to talk about adding some new cards (Jace etc.), then we all begin to talk about how best to use them. The deck gets reconfigured over and over again until we arrive up at the contents of the other thread.
For example - let's say you DO want to run Jace - well, why aren't you running rise and falls? Why aren't you taking advantage of Abbot or Young Pyromancer? Why are you still running 4 Snapcasters? Why are you still running maindeck counterspells (ESPECIALLY Cryptic)? How do you feel about Gitaxian Probe and Mishra's Bauble? ALL of these things aren't relevant to either the deck referenced in our primer OR in most of the lists that have been posted to this point because the two decks want two completely different groups of cards - so THAT is why the discussions need to be separated.
The second list got vetoed because it's running maindeck Cruel Ultimatums - a card that has it's own thread and deck.
Indeed there is merit into having 2 different threads. I feel like the difference though is mainly in overall playstyle as some poeple have mentioned and not specifically on card inclusion. Sure if you include Abbot you are definitely going Blue Jund way. But Jace is not what makes the difference. We've seen lists playing control but runnin 2-3 Jaces.
So if you run Jace plus reactive spells (cryptic command, mana leak, remand, dispel) and generally instant speed answers with 2-4 big threats (Gurmag Angler and Tasigur) you are good to go in the control thread.
If you run Jace and sorcery speed proactive spells/asnwers (IoK, Thoughtseize, Rise//Fall, Dreadbore) you are better off at the Blue Jund thread even if you don't play Abbot.
Just to add on to that, a bunch of us still bounce between threads, contributing as necessary.
Sometimes by adding cards that are of value on their own you can dilute your game plan. You often want to remain "all in" bc other cards can become weaker as you play them. The control decks counter package and Snaps demand an instant speed game. Discard/Disruption effects are strong if you have 1 or 2 and can play it early, but weaker as the game progresses. Blue Jund wants to play some countermagic, but the deck's mechanics makes it a ***** to pull off. For example, goyf is a great card, and even though junk and hatebears shares many of the same card elements, goyf would be trash in the hatebears plan.
You really need to play both grixcontrol and blue jund to understand the subtleties, but I understand where you're coming from.
Hello all! New to MTG Salvation. Thought I would join the conversation and share my list. I have been playing Grixis Control, basically since its inception with Khans. I feel after many hours of testing I have found a pretty optimal list for the current meta. Anyway, the deck:
The SB is geared for my meta. When i go to "big" tournaments the numbers and cards get shifted around. Overall, I think this deck is incredibly powerful and a blast to play. I'm always open to constructive criticism and look forward to discussing this awesome deck with the community!
I definitely think Jace is worth testing because while not 100% optimal - -3ing into a terminate, K-command or Gifts is still really really strong. In using Jace in your shell, what have you found?
As far as your list - I think I'd rather have a Dispel than a stubborn denial (you're looking to hit the same types of cards with it, like path), and I think I'd rather have another Terminate over the singleton Thoughtseize, but that's just me.
I've been pretty dissatisfied with Cryptic lately, so I think I want to drop to 1/2 and maybe do a weird 3/2 K command Electrolyze split. Relying too much on Cryptics in a meta that has adapted by overloading on dispels feels REALLY awful, especially in the mirror.
I definitely think Jace is worth testing because while not 100% optimal - -3ing into a terminate, K-command or Gifts is still really really strong. In using Jace in your shell, what have you found?
As far as your list - I think I'd rather have a Dispel than a stubborn denial (you're looking to hit the same types of cards with it, like path), and I think I'd rather have another Terminate over the singleton Thoughtseize, but that's just me.
I've been pretty dissatisfied with Cryptic lately, so I think I want to drop to 1/2 and maybe do a weird 3/2 K command Electrolyze split. Relying too much on Cryptics in a meta that has adapted by overloading on dispels feels REALLY awful, especially in the mirror.
The thing with about Jace in this deck, is that he is really Snapcasters 5 and 6, while also being able to do other things. In my findings, I found that Jace is usually played (depending on match up) as a 3 or 4 mana planeswalker. This is because I REALLY want him to stick around so I only play him when I can protect him or I'm sure that I will be able to untap with him. Truthfully, it doesn't really matter what turn you play Jace. He is good at all stages in the game. We play such powerful spells that he fits so well into a shell like this. Like you said, just flashing back a Gifts or Kolaghan's Command can be a huge swing when we don't have a Snapcaster. I haven't found that the counterspells really interfere with what I want to do with Jace. Cryptic Command may seem like a bad option to be playing along side Jace, but Cryptic is just so good against green decks that I always want access to at least one, and flashing it back with Jace to bounce a thing or tap dudes when you need to get in some damage with an Angler isn't a horrible move. While I'll agree that Dispel is probably the better choice, I just got frustrated with trying to win through Liliana of the Veil. The denial is kind of a nod to that, to give me a way to easily counter it on the play or draw. The single Thoughtseize seems out of place as well. However, discard spells are very good with Jace and I wanted to play at least one mostly for testing purposes at first. Having the discard alongside Jace allows to attack from basically every angle and has been great every time I cast it. I think I want more.
On having a single thoughtseize.. life is already a strained resource in grixis colors that I don't want to be using it, but with the 1 thoughtseize either I see it early and it's great or I don't see it at all and have no worries. I usually dont want to see it late unless im like playing some sort of combo and they still have their hand. If I do get it late I can recur an inquisition (if on the abbot build) that's hopefully in the yard to spy out if thoughtseize is necessary. Every time I've played more than 1 I feel it would cause awkward draws for me. I've played a single thoughtseize and single duress in the side and it's strong, he just mainboarded what would usually get sided in for bad MUs
Gixis control seems to be falling on MTGO. Will it fall from tier 1?
I think it's rather poorly positioned at the moment, but still a good deck. Merfolk has shown a significant rise, which is a terrible matchup. Jund kind of has it's way with us, and it's still a very popular deck. Things will ebb and flow, I think.
I agree with all of this. The meta has quickly adapted to cryptic and it's accompanying shenanigans. It's still a very good deck, but it's not a favorable field at all anymore and even our good matchups have adapted (Twin running extra dispels, etc.).
Gixis control seems to be falling on MTGO. Will it fall from tier 1?
I think it's rather poorly positioned at the moment, but still a good deck. Merfolk has shown a significant rise, which is a terrible matchup. Jund kind of has it's way with us, and it's still a very popular deck. Things will ebb and flow, I think.
I found myself 50%/50% against merfolk game 1 and 65%/35% G2 and G3 in my favor (over 50 games played). I am not afraid of aggro decks, I'm afraid of Burn.
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I think the other thing to take into consideration is how flexible the Grixis shell is. It doesn't take much for someone to change from Grixis control into Delver into Twin into Blue Jund depending on how best to attack the meta. Given that the tier system is based on popularity rather then power this means that there will probably always be a Tier 1 Grixis deck but which flavor of Grixis will probably rotate depending on the meta game.
@Premaximum: I am surprised to here you have a bad time with Jund, I have always found myself favored in that match-up.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
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You're in the wrong thread. Please post discussions on decks that function with Jace and largely at sorcery speed in this thread: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/624058-abbot-jace-grixis-blue-jund?page=19
The magma spray is powerhouse against voice of resurgence and kitchen finks (melira combo, junk..). I do like it a lot. Also works as lightning for bird if needed but I recommend waiting for one of it's main targets.
Slay works very well vs abzan. One extra mana it's not problematic an you keep on with card advantage. I'm testing at the moment tribute to hunger and it works fine against boggles or any 5 thoughtness body.
Anger of the gods is always needed, and I also get damnation in, not langish, because I want to kill rhinos too.
+1 Magma spray / -1 Lightning bolt
+1 Slay / -1 Remand
+1 Damnation / -1 Dispel
+1 Anger of the gods / -1 Cryptic Command
+1 Countersquall / -1 Mana Leak
One of the main reasons because I don't usually share my sideboarding is because now someone who really know how to play say that I'm completely wrong. And he'd probably be right because I've been playing for 14 months now.
Anyways, the list performs extremely well (24-3 at the moment, lost to the mentioned Naya Zoo, Burn and Boggles, and won against almost every midrange and fair deck of the format with total superiority).
If you want something else I'll try to explain. Btw I'm testing the bunch of lists of top 32 GP OKC with Jaces everywhere, not happy enought by now.
Are new card additions not allowed in the deck? Do we have to just keep reconfiguring the same 75 cards over and over again and talking about how sweet our slightly-different list is?
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Nahiri Harbinger
I recommend you cut a Steam Vents for the second Tar Pit. Most of our lists have settled on 2 Steam Vents. I assume you're looking at Blackcleave for more frequent turn 1 Inquisitions, yes? I feel like there aren't any good cuts for this, unless you wanted to cut a Darkslick Shores. You should also probably be running the 4 Scalding Tarns, but I can understand if you just don't have them for budget reasons. Cut a Kolaghan's Command if you want an Electrolyze.
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See this illustration, the addition of Jace moves the list much closer to aggro-rock.
Source: http://modernnexus.com/wheel-of-fortune-riding-the-archetype-spectrum/
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Dredge
Nahiri Harbinger
Inquisition seems more like a question rather than an answer.
The decks play pretty differently. The other deck doesn't run countermagic, runs 3-4 Abbots and 3-4 jaces in general with 2-3 lilis, and is a deck built to abuse Rise // Fall and Kolaghan's Command outvaluing opponents.
This decks does a similar thing with more elements of control, rather than focusing on doing everything during your own turn, in here we want to interact during opponents turn as well, which the 'Blue Jund' deck doesn't really care about, as playing at instant speed makes Jace a worse card.
For example - let's say you DO want to run Jace - well, why aren't you running rise and falls? Why aren't you taking advantage of Abbot or Young Pyromancer? Why are you still running 4 Snapcasters? Why are you still running maindeck counterspells (ESPECIALLY Cryptic)? How do you feel about Gitaxian Probe and Mishra's Bauble? ALL of these things aren't relevant to either the deck referenced in our primer OR in most of the lists that have been posted to this point because the two decks want two completely different groups of cards - so THAT is why the discussions need to be separated.
The second list got vetoed because it's running maindeck Cruel Ultimatums - a card that has it's own thread and deck.
So if you run Jace plus reactive spells (cryptic command, mana leak, remand, dispel) and generally instant speed answers with 2-4 big threats (Gurmag Angler and Tasigur) you are good to go in the control thread.
If you run Jace and sorcery speed proactive spells/asnwers (IoK, Thoughtseize, Rise//Fall, Dreadbore) you are better off at the Blue Jund thread even if you don't play Abbot.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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Sometimes by adding cards that are of value on their own you can dilute your game plan. You often want to remain "all in" bc other cards can become weaker as you play them. The control decks counter package and Snaps demand an instant speed game. Discard/Disruption effects are strong if you have 1 or 2 and can play it early, but weaker as the game progresses. Blue Jund wants to play some countermagic, but the deck's mechanics makes it a ***** to pull off. For example, goyf is a great card, and even though junk and hatebears shares many of the same card elements, goyf would be trash in the hatebears plan.
You really need to play both grixcontrol and blue jund to understand the subtleties, but I understand where you're coming from.
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Jace, Vryns Prodigy
Spells: 27
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Cryptic Command
2x Spell Snare
2x Mana Leak
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Electrolyze
1x Thoughtseize
1x Go For The Throat
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Dispel
1x Negate
2x Vampiric Link
1x Duress
1x Languish
1x Jace, Architect Of Thought
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The SB is geared for my meta. When i go to "big" tournaments the numbers and cards get shifted around. Overall, I think this deck is incredibly powerful and a blast to play. I'm always open to constructive criticism and look forward to discussing this awesome deck with the community!
As far as your list - I think I'd rather have a Dispel than a stubborn denial (you're looking to hit the same types of cards with it, like path), and I think I'd rather have another Terminate over the singleton Thoughtseize, but that's just me.
I've been pretty dissatisfied with Cryptic lately, so I think I want to drop to 1/2 and maybe do a weird 3/2 K command Electrolyze split. Relying too much on Cryptics in a meta that has adapted by overloading on dispels feels REALLY awful, especially in the mirror.
The thing with about Jace in this deck, is that he is really Snapcasters 5 and 6, while also being able to do other things. In my findings, I found that Jace is usually played (depending on match up) as a 3 or 4 mana planeswalker. This is because I REALLY want him to stick around so I only play him when I can protect him or I'm sure that I will be able to untap with him. Truthfully, it doesn't really matter what turn you play Jace. He is good at all stages in the game. We play such powerful spells that he fits so well into a shell like this. Like you said, just flashing back a Gifts or Kolaghan's Command can be a huge swing when we don't have a Snapcaster. I haven't found that the counterspells really interfere with what I want to do with Jace. Cryptic Command may seem like a bad option to be playing along side Jace, but Cryptic is just so good against green decks that I always want access to at least one, and flashing it back with Jace to bounce a thing or tap dudes when you need to get in some damage with an Angler isn't a horrible move. While I'll agree that Dispel is probably the better choice, I just got frustrated with trying to win through Liliana of the Veil. The denial is kind of a nod to that, to give me a way to easily counter it on the play or draw. The single Thoughtseize seems out of place as well. However, discard spells are very good with Jace and I wanted to play at least one mostly for testing purposes at first. Having the discard alongside Jace allows to attack from basically every angle and has been great every time I cast it. I think I want more.
decks playing:
none
I think it's rather poorly positioned at the moment, but still a good deck. Merfolk has shown a significant rise, which is a terrible matchup. Jund kind of has it's way with us, and it's still a very popular deck. Things will ebb and flow, I think.
Lantern Prison
Dredge
Nahiri Harbinger
I found myself 50%/50% against merfolk game 1 and 65%/35% G2 and G3 in my favor (over 50 games played). I am not afraid of aggro decks, I'm afraid of Burn.
@Premaximum: I am surprised to here you have a bad time with Jund, I have always found myself favored in that match-up.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm