Mostly because Midrange doesn't interest me as a play style, and I think that the instant-speed control shell isn't that much less viable. This is probably just because I honestly don't enjoy targeted discard.
My one concession to being a bit more proactive is that I'm running 3x Lingering Souls because it is a good way to alleviate early pressure, or to establish some pressure when it's needed.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
It's hard to deny the fact that Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Liliana make the best use of BGx shells but this doesn't imply that you can't come up with something different yet still viable.
As for the matchup against Affinity:
- You gain Path to Exile.
- Esper Charm can kill Ensoul Artifact.
- Lingering Souls is notoriously a good tool to hold the board.
- You can even go deeper and maindeck Verdicts.
- Post-board you have Stony Silence.
- Thoughtseize and Kozilek are better at being turn 1 plays to handle their important pieces (Ravager, Plating, Champion) and in general they give deep knowledge about how they're going to slowroll their hand. You can fool them into overextending more easily to capitalize on a Wrath or to set up favourable Lingering Souls condition.
Against combo:
- Snapcaster-Thoughtseize is bad?
- Esper Charm discarding two eot is bad?
- You can still play 4-of Mana Leak, my guidelines weren't absolute.
In short:
You are retaining all the great tools white has to offer. What are you losing? Spell Snare and Command?
Two cards that are really swingy against Affinity, too often dead or slow and that you can avoid because you have access to better tools.
In comparison with BGx you don't have a turn two CA engine, a fast beatstick and a planeswalker to tear control and combo in a half, but you gain the best blue creature in the format in a structure abundant of cc1 spells, a very solid and flexible instant spell, wraths and better sideboard options. Decks are going to play differently but Esper has valid choices for sure.
"Control actually has an easier time against bgx" is true as long as that control is playing red, mainly because Electrolyze and Bolt (and minor cards like Wear) pair well against Memnites, Skirges and such.
I think draw-go is utopic without red. Every nut start from tier decks, be it Seize-->Goyf, Affinity fast overextensions or dork into Pod is going to set you too behind since turn one or two. You lack Anger, you lack Bolt.
You need to grind things out in a different way, and I really believe that minimizing stack interaction to deal with board problems (i.e. where 90% of Modern archetypes work) is better. Try it out. I think you can go toe-to-toe against Bgx, destroy control and combo and have a very reasonable Affinity matchup. You're probably going to give it up against Tron but there is no way you can covered in any possible angle and if you try hard you can tool the manabase to support Fulminator Mages/Seas/Shadow of Doubt.
I couldn't agree with you more. I've presented a more proactive, creature/disruption approach (which is still Control, as BG, Jund, Junk, BW, and Dega have showed, but I got accused of stretching what proactive control meant. You're absolutely right; those midrange decks have shown and proven that there's a method to Control that works in this format and that's disruption followed by efficient/value creatures. Look at Esper/Soul Blade (or even BW/Deadguy Ale) or Esper Zur. That's where Esper wants to be. Draw-Go may have the luxury of Instant speed and draw, but it is slow (it plays the long game) and narrow (low threat density, one-for-one, etc.).
Some of us just like a long hard fought victory, and draw go is the style we wish to play, I am under no illusion esper draw go is teir 1 and I'm okay with that, I just have no interest in some midrange that try's to call it's self control cause that is a style I hate and will never play.
Your list looks solid. I like the multiple win-cons. Relying on just WSZ is suicide in Modern. Too much hand disruption. However, I'd consider more spot removals. Smother is an excellent choice. Up it to 2.
I was trying to point out what I think it has demonstrated to be true, not wanted to force anybody to play my deck. Chill out. I stand by my opinion that the black shell is superior and Cryptic Command is often over-rated and you may disagree, really. When results with Esper will be made we'll see who is right and who is wrong. I was just trying to input a different (to me better) approach. I won't bother anymore.
Lingering Souls in a flash deck is still often a nombo.
Two things, one is you came off kinda mean and disrespectful
Also while you are absolutely right about the nonbo lingering souls is just so damn good against so many decks that running it is worthwhile, also if you are afraid you don't have to tapout on turn three to play lingering souls. If you are afraid of a big threat you can hold off for a turn or two. I also agree with you the Cryptic is a bit overrated but its up to personal preference on what you play and how you play it.
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I was trying to point out what I think it has demonstrated to be true, not wanted to force anybody to play my deck. Chill out. I stand by my opinion that the black shell is superior and Cryptic Command is often over-rated and you may disagree, really. When results with Esper will be made we'll see who is right and who is wrong. I was just trying to input a different (to me better) approach. I won't bother anymore.
Lingering Souls in a flash deck is still often a nombo.
You really do need to go back to your other posts and re-read them if you think you werent being rude/dismissive/offensive. Your comments were to put it mildly rude.
Yes, an esper midrange deck does offer things over the typical BGx; Lingering Souls, Path, Esper Charm in combo with Pack Rat, Snap and discard could be a very potent deck. But that is not what this thread is about; this is a control thread, coming into a thread and telling people they should abandon it for something completely different and unproven is just unnecessary.
Midrange and draw go are completely different decks; they play completely differently and have different pros and cons to them. One is not better than the other; UWR control has proven in the past that it can compete and win large tournaments. With the Khanslaught fetchs being released, there is no reason for Esper to not be able to as well.
@ Lingering Souls being a nonbo with draw go, that just doesnt make any sense. You do not HAVE to cast a CMC 3 spell on turn 3, if you are up against a deck that you really cant let them get any spells off, then you can hold the LS (though other than on the draw against twin, i dont kno many decks that we cant let a single spell go off). The theory behind a draw go deck is that you want raw card advantage, a card that you can cast twice and gives 4 creatures is the very definition of raw card advantage. By the same thinking, we couldnt run Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict or any non-instant speed boardwipe.
On the different note - has anyone tried to make a UW-ish inclusion of Quicken? I know that we have Esper Charm for Divination, but would it benefit our deck to include enough sorceries to make it work - to smooth out verdicts/wraths/damnations/bsz/lingering souls? Ideas: Exhaustion (A potential of 2 turn free reign).
Also, in addition to variations of Tron, what are our most obvious weaknesses?
What are the options against the rise of Red Deck Wins?
What about sideboard Memoricide? (I wish we had Slaughter Games).
I am working on a proactive transformational sideboard that involves 4 copies of Zur's Weirding and a mix of hexproof/lifelink creatures/hatebears to completely change the playstyle after sb. Hype for rogues?
Edit: Spelling.
No one is saying that a tap out control deck cant work, this just isnt the point of this thread. I would be hesitant to play a deck where you are hoping to have one spell to cast the others in the deck. Not to say quicken isnt viable, i just dont want to count on having one in hand to make some other amount of cards in the deck work.
R/G tron is winnable, we have counters for Karn and path for wurmcoils. The trick is winning inbetween their early plays (karn/coil) and them finding eye and hardcasting emrakul. After sideboard we can remove the dead boardwipes and add more counters/disruption so it gets easier. The U versions of Tron are a lot harder, they have more reliable wincons while being backed up by counters. I personally think its just a match up you have to hope to dodge, isnt much we can do without making huge changes to the maindeck/sideboard (but luckily its not very popular anyways).
RDW is always a toss up for any deck that isnt maindecking lifegain. We have cheap counters and removal which helps but we have a lot of dead cards too but its why RDW is viable in every format; having cards that go straight to the face and are very effective for the cost lets the deck help regulate the formats. If it gets too popular, some amount of Leyline of Santcity or lifegain cards can be included in the SB.
Edit: As to Memoricide, its always one of those cards that people want to put in sideboards but unless more decks become popular that rely on only 1 card to win, it just isnt worth while.
Remand's real value is the mana trades it forces without losing card advantage. It buys us extra turns in the early game and can halt an opponents final push during late game for cheap.
What mana trades are you talking about? Take the following scenario
Opponent plays Goyf
You Remand
Next turn Opponent replays Goyf
You Path to Exile
Counting the Path's land, that is a 4-4 mana trade. And it gets even worse if you are answering with cards like Cryptic instead of Path. Condescend would have done it as a 2-2 trade, so it would be equal. However, it would not be dependent on there being another answer in your hand. That is why Condescend is more useful.
Also, Remand cannot halt much of anything in the late-game. Your opponent will have the mana to replay it.
Condescend requires more resources to be dumped into it on average to achieve the same result. And on the topic of it's scry 2 vs Remand's draw a card: a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Knowing what is coming is nice but not worth as much as an actual card to play with.
As I just showed you, Condescend took the same amount of resources. Condescend only costs a lot in the late game, and that is when Remand is even more useless than it. And while I agree that drawing a card is better than scrying 2, with all of the card draw in the deck it really doesn't make much of a diffference. You probably wil scry a card that you don't want to the bottom, play a draw spell next turn, and get a different card instead of that one, which is the same as drawing a card.
So to be honest I think we are looking at a deck built by Wafo Tapa that is meant to got through the deck as fast as possible and play WSZ as much as possible. The durdle/instant/draw go/cantrip thing goes with that plan. That's what his deck's plan is. General esper midrange is something different
Edit: zealous persecution was cute. But I took one out and an elspeth for the swords. Can't imagine it's a bad idea. also changed the seize/inquisition split to 3/2 instead of 2/3. I think i can handle the lifeloss.
Working on a sideboard but know I want a pact of negation or two, more disruption, anti-affinity, and wraths, but I'm still filling in some gaps.
Edit 2: This is the sideboard I've settled on. I don't know what to put in the last spot, but I know i want it to be anti-burn cause there is a lot in my meta right now. I don't know if i want to go more general anti-spell like trinisphere or teferi, mage of zhalfir or just go directly to drawgon's claw for now, any suggestions appreciated
What in Urza's name is going on here? I have to travel out of state for a few days and it's been midrange madness over here, in a control thread. Oh for shame! If you want to build an esper geist deck feel free, if you want to build esper colored restoration angel or 12+ planeswalkers value deck? Have fun! A nearly mono black deck with 2 esper charms? Have at it, but please make your own thread for it. Control is answers, card draw, and a small number of finishers. Not piles remands, geist of saint traft, liliana of the veil, swords of stuff and things or a bad version of spirit rock midrange with blue because mize.
And for the love of god, stop using remand as a “counter spell” or “super good tempo” as an argument. Remand is a cantrip, not a counter spell. Control is not about tempo based temporary answers, it's about definitive answers. Should you feel the need for more cantrips go ahead, but don't argue that it creates mana advantage for half of a turn cycle or is great against flashback spells making it worth having 20 in place of cards that are needed, are always relevant, or always get value like cryptic command or other card drawing spells. If you don't like control in modern or think that control isn't even possible in modern, that's fine, but some of us do believe that pure control is viable. Let us do our thing and have our fun building an esper control deck without essentially being told "hey just play The Rock with cryptic command," I'm sure there will be a thread for that soon with Khans being spoiled.
/annoyed rant
I've been toying around a lot with lists using utter end and I've come to the conclusion that is occupies the same “theoretical space” as I like to call it that think twice does. It is possibly the absolute worst card in the deck, just like think twice, but is still necessary none the less. It gives us a main deck out to the best cards that people run that can beat us on their own. It also allows us to make a few tweaks to our main deck and/or sideboard because we have answers to non creature permanents, allowing us to trim here or cut there as necessary. Naturally using it on a dark confidant feels miserable but managing to clip a birthing pod, after some path to exile action has been going, on is such a relief and can easily cause the game to be locked up right then and there because of the massive amount of breathing room that it creates.
When pointed at a walker, they'll get their initial value as usual, but being able to remove them with no ifs, ands, or buts about it is very important to a control deck. We need versatile answers and can only risk being caught with the wrong ones so much. I'm running two and would never consider going higher, even in the side because of the steep mana cost, but I am wondering if it should be 1 main and 1 side. Whichever is the case, I'm positive that they belong in our 75 somewhere.
Compared to my original list, the main change is that I cut the 2 lingering souls and replaced them with 2 utter end main deck. The reason I wanted lingering souls main in the first place was to be an answer to planes walkers that has the potential to do a little bit more. Utter end not only answers walkers, but it can also answer wurmcoil engines and other assorted giant monsters, it has an exile clause, it tags birthing pod, cranial plating, and is a better answer to a game 1 blood moon than esper charm as it only requires 2 colors of mana. I realize that I'm really just reading you the text box of the card, but there isn't a lot to be said about it other than that it just hits everything that we're afraid of and makes sure that when they're gone, they stay gone. 4 mana is a lot, but the effect is so highly desired and detention sphere is incredibly unreliable that it is worth the cost.
What this change eventually allowed me to do in the main is to cut the slaughter pact for a second copy of smother. I love slaughter pact and think it's a great card in the list, but its main purpose was to answer things like restoration angel or obstinate baloth. The problem is that slaughter pact can't kill a bob which can be an issue for the deck because a turn 2 path to exile against a dark confidant deck is usually going to end poorly. Since I cut two pseudo win-conditions, I felt the need to add in a creeping tar pit. Coincidentally enough, tar pit is also great against planes walkers so I'm not terribly concerned about the switch in that regard.
In the sideboard it allowed me to shave a celestial purge now that I have other answers to annoying cards in those colors. I also get to cut the deprive since I now have an answer to a resolved keranos in matches where celestial purge might not come in. I also decided that having 2 condemn in the board to help with decks that require more removal might be just strictly worse than another supreme verdict so I'm trying that. I'm still unsure which is better, 2 additional 1 mana removal spells or another uncounterable wrath effect.
I moved all the lingering souls from the main into the side and added a third copy while keeping the other extra win conditions and hand disruption spells. The board also looks significantly cleaner which I really like though that's not exactly relevant. I'm still keeping with 3 counter spells, but I can't believe that straight up 3 negate is right so I may go back to a singleton deprive. I wouldn't mind a dispel but I feel like the counters that I side in should be able to answer what I'm bringing them in for in the first place which is typically blood moon, batter skull, scapeshift, and other counter spells. I've considered swan song, but the lack of lightning bolt makes me worry about giving them a free wind drake as it won't be as easy to handle because when counters come in, some amount of removal typically goes out making the token that much more relevant of a threat.
Hopefully the modern scene starts to pick up at my LGS so I can get in some proper games and get some actual results aside from a few hundred assorted test games since I can't afford to buy the entire deck on modo to play there regularly.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I for one am all for the pure control but I must admit the 1 win condition is insane and needs to be rethought, yeah collanades are good but just a Elspeth, Gideon, or Batterskull can add so much resiliency
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SIDISI VALUE
thank god for a voice of reason to be back in the thread.
I like the list, i still disagree with think twice over some cantrip that has a real effect on the game (like shadow of doubt). Also, interesting to see you replace LS with utter end; i agree its a necessary evil but running only WSZ that can win the game scares me. I agree wtih Gordon, i feel like you need another wincon beyond WSZ; something like a planeswalker or hrad to kill creature (like batterskull). I just fear getting WSZ countered/discarded early and being left wtih only snap beats or manlands for the win.
I for one am all for the pure control but I must admit the 1 win condition is insane and needs to be rethought, yeah collanades are good but just a Elspeth, Gideon, or Batterskull can add so much resiliency
I agree. Versatility is key. Putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't work as well in Modern as it does in Standard. I also think it's time to consider Leyline of Sanctity as a 2-of in the main, especially if you're relying on WSZ to win you the game. Too many decks packing disruption. There's also a lot of burn. Leyline is clutch.
I for one am in the same boat as you guys. I just wanted to point out how silly it is to build a midrange deck and still keep WSZ in the deck. WSZ is not even a good card, just happens to be awesome in the draw go style. The midrange deck i made was to point out just how different the two decks are, as I also posted my version earlier. I think Wafo Tapa's version is killer. I like utter end, not sure in mb, it's quite hefty cost. Instant is huuuuuuuge for this deck. much better than souls for it. Just flows so much better. Still getting burned out hard. Been thinking about dragon's claw even just to combat that. Also goes to show just how tailored Wafo-Tapa's deck was for the meta game. spell snare is great at tournaments I guess, but it sure sucks against burn, which is really prevalent where i'm playing. Those spell snares are, like i said earlier, for sure some flex spots in the counter suite. That's totally where i see your smothers btw, meta dependant calls. The esper draw-go control is truly control at it's purest.
edit: Honestly, other wincons are just overlooking teferi, mage of zhalfir as a legitimate beater. Plus, all this whining about WSZ would be cured if you just added another one in there...It's not like it has a mechanical problem, it's that your only copy might get discarded. So don't go to all these other wincons to remedy that; put another copy in. Though I have to say, a couple leyline is a great choice here too if you're that worried about discard because it essentially blanks burn which is really nice. Also, as for the remand discussion, i hope it was clear I never really treated remand as a counterspell, but as a less hurtful think twice. I'd just rather have 4/2 remand/think twice than the other way around. Though now i am more of a 3/3 man myself
It is possibly the absolute worst card in the deck, just like think twice, but is still necessary none the less.
Think Twice is the core of the deck.
Think twice is easily the weakest card in the deck (arguably the weakest card in modern that sees competitive play). Its CMC 5 for 2 cards... Divination is CMC 3 for 2 cards and you would be laughed at for playing it in any competitive atmosphere. Its 2 redeeming qualities are that it's CMC is split in half and that it is instant speed.
That is why i argue we should be playing "do something" cantrips over think twice (like shadow of doubt that is against 80% of tier 1 decks able to 2 for 1 them; stifling a fetch, a pod/chord or a expedition map and then replacing itself, but i digress). Playing think twice is simply a necessary evil of that there are no good instant draw cards in modern due to fear of blue enabling combo.
The thing with Think Twice is that it provides value at instant speed and the first half is cheap enough to fix hands early game. It is overcosted for what it does but the fact that more cards wins fair games of magic cannot be denied. The fact that we run 8 value cards not counting rev and wsz makes our gbx and pod matchups really good.
Mostly because Midrange doesn't interest me as a play style, and I think that the instant-speed control shell isn't that much less viable. This is probably just because I honestly don't enjoy targeted discard.
My one concession to being a bit more proactive is that I'm running 3x Lingering Souls because it is a good way to alleviate early pressure, or to establish some pressure when it's needed.
I couldn't agree with you more. I've presented a more proactive, creature/disruption approach (which is still Control, as BG, Jund, Junk, BW, and Dega have showed, but I got accused of stretching what proactive control meant. You're absolutely right; those midrange decks have shown and proven that there's a method to Control that works in this format and that's disruption followed by efficient/value creatures. Look at Esper/Soul Blade (or even BW/Deadguy Ale) or Esper Zur. That's where Esper wants to be. Draw-Go may have the luxury of Instant speed and draw, but it is slow (it plays the long game) and narrow (low threat density, one-for-one, etc.).
Esper draw go Control!
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Two things, one is you came off kinda mean and disrespectful
Also while you are absolutely right about the nonbo lingering souls is just so damn good against so many decks that running it is worthwhile, also if you are afraid you don't have to tapout on turn three to play lingering souls. If you are afraid of a big threat you can hold off for a turn or two. I also agree with you the Cryptic is a bit overrated but its up to personal preference on what you play and how you play it.
MODERN
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NAYA BURN
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RABBLE RED
E D H
OCEAN MASTER LORTHOS
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SIDISI VALUE
You really do need to go back to your other posts and re-read them if you think you werent being rude/dismissive/offensive. Your comments were to put it mildly rude.
Yes, an esper midrange deck does offer things over the typical BGx; Lingering Souls, Path, Esper Charm in combo with Pack Rat, Snap and discard could be a very potent deck. But that is not what this thread is about; this is a control thread, coming into a thread and telling people they should abandon it for something completely different and unproven is just unnecessary.
Midrange and draw go are completely different decks; they play completely differently and have different pros and cons to them. One is not better than the other; UWR control has proven in the past that it can compete and win large tournaments. With the Khanslaught fetchs being released, there is no reason for Esper to not be able to as well.
@ Lingering Souls being a nonbo with draw go, that just doesnt make any sense. You do not HAVE to cast a CMC 3 spell on turn 3, if you are up against a deck that you really cant let them get any spells off, then you can hold the LS (though other than on the draw against twin, i dont kno many decks that we cant let a single spell go off). The theory behind a draw go deck is that you want raw card advantage, a card that you can cast twice and gives 4 creatures is the very definition of raw card advantage. By the same thinking, we couldnt run Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict or any non-instant speed boardwipe.
No one is saying that a tap out control deck cant work, this just isnt the point of this thread. I would be hesitant to play a deck where you are hoping to have one spell to cast the others in the deck. Not to say quicken isnt viable, i just dont want to count on having one in hand to make some other amount of cards in the deck work.
R/G tron is winnable, we have counters for Karn and path for wurmcoils. The trick is winning inbetween their early plays (karn/coil) and them finding eye and hardcasting emrakul. After sideboard we can remove the dead boardwipes and add more counters/disruption so it gets easier. The U versions of Tron are a lot harder, they have more reliable wincons while being backed up by counters. I personally think its just a match up you have to hope to dodge, isnt much we can do without making huge changes to the maindeck/sideboard (but luckily its not very popular anyways).
RDW is always a toss up for any deck that isnt maindecking lifegain. We have cheap counters and removal which helps but we have a lot of dead cards too but its why RDW is viable in every format; having cards that go straight to the face and are very effective for the cost lets the deck help regulate the formats. If it gets too popular, some amount of Leyline of Santcity or lifegain cards can be included in the SB.
Edit: As to Memoricide, its always one of those cards that people want to put in sideboards but unless more decks become popular that rely on only 1 card to win, it just isnt worth while.
What mana trades are you talking about? Take the following scenario
Opponent plays Goyf
You Remand
Next turn Opponent replays Goyf
You Path to Exile
Counting the Path's land, that is a 4-4 mana trade. And it gets even worse if you are answering with cards like Cryptic instead of Path. Condescend would have done it as a 2-2 trade, so it would be equal. However, it would not be dependent on there being another answer in your hand. That is why Condescend is more useful.
Also, Remand cannot halt much of anything in the late-game. Your opponent will have the mana to replay it.
As I just showed you, Condescend took the same amount of resources. Condescend only costs a lot in the late game, and that is when Remand is even more useless than it. And while I agree that drawing a card is better than scrying 2, with all of the card draw in the deck it really doesn't make much of a diffference. You probably wil scry a card that you don't want to the bottom, play a draw spell next turn, and get a different card instead of that one, which is the same as drawing a card.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is my take on esper midrange
4 dark confidant
2 snapcaster Mage
4 path to exile
4 Lilliana of the veil
4 lingering souls
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 sphinx's revelation
2 cryptic command
1 logic knot
2 esper charm
Edit: zealous persecution was cute. But I took one out and an elspeth for the swords. Can't imagine it's a bad idea. also changed the seize/inquisition split to 3/2 instead of 2/3. I think i can handle the lifeloss.
Working on a sideboard but know I want a pact of negation or two, more disruption, anti-affinity, and wraths, but I'm still filling in some gaps.
Edit 2: This is the sideboard I've settled on. I don't know what to put in the last spot, but I know i want it to be anti-burn cause there is a lot in my meta right now. I don't know if i want to go more general anti-spell like trinisphere or teferi, mage of zhalfir or just go directly to drawgon's claw for now, any suggestions appreciated
1 pact of negation
2 disenchant
1 detention sphere
2 vendilion clique
1 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
1 damnation
2 supreme verdict
And for the love of god, stop using remand as a “counter spell” or “super good tempo” as an argument. Remand is a cantrip, not a counter spell. Control is not about tempo based temporary answers, it's about definitive answers. Should you feel the need for more cantrips go ahead, but don't argue that it creates mana advantage for half of a turn cycle or is great against flashback spells making it worth having 20 in place of cards that are needed, are always relevant, or always get value like cryptic command or other card drawing spells. If you don't like control in modern or think that control isn't even possible in modern, that's fine, but some of us do believe that pure control is viable. Let us do our thing and have our fun building an esper control deck without essentially being told "hey just play The Rock with cryptic command," I'm sure there will be a thread for that soon with Khans being spoiled.
/annoyed rant
I've been toying around a lot with lists using utter end and I've come to the conclusion that is occupies the same “theoretical space” as I like to call it that think twice does. It is possibly the absolute worst card in the deck, just like think twice, but is still necessary none the less. It gives us a main deck out to the best cards that people run that can beat us on their own. It also allows us to make a few tweaks to our main deck and/or sideboard because we have answers to non creature permanents, allowing us to trim here or cut there as necessary. Naturally using it on a dark confidant feels miserable but managing to clip a birthing pod, after some path to exile action has been going, on is such a relief and can easily cause the game to be locked up right then and there because of the massive amount of breathing room that it creates.
When pointed at a walker, they'll get their initial value as usual, but being able to remove them with no ifs, ands, or buts about it is very important to a control deck. We need versatile answers and can only risk being caught with the wrong ones so much. I'm running two and would never consider going higher, even in the side because of the steep mana cost, but I am wondering if it should be 1 main and 1 side. Whichever is the case, I'm positive that they belong in our 75 somewhere.
Here's the list that I'm currently working with:
4 path to exile
2 smother
2 utter end
1 black sun's zenith
1 wrath of god
1 supreme verdict
Counter Magic:
4 cryptic command
3 spell snare
2 condescend
1 logic knot
Card Advantage:
4 esper charm
3 think twice
3 snapcaster mage
2 sphinx's revelation
Win Conditions:
1 white sun's zenith
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
2 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
1 godless shrine
2 island
1 plains
1 swamp
2 glacial fortress
1 sunken ruins
1 ghost quarter
1 tectonic edge
4 celestial colonnade
1 creeping tar pit
3 lingering souls
3 negate
3 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
1 supreme verdict
1 batterskull
1 celestial purge
1 engineered explosives
1 ashiok, nightmare weaver
Compared to my original list, the main change is that I cut the 2 lingering souls and replaced them with 2 utter end main deck. The reason I wanted lingering souls main in the first place was to be an answer to planes walkers that has the potential to do a little bit more. Utter end not only answers walkers, but it can also answer wurmcoil engines and other assorted giant monsters, it has an exile clause, it tags birthing pod, cranial plating, and is a better answer to a game 1 blood moon than esper charm as it only requires 2 colors of mana. I realize that I'm really just reading you the text box of the card, but there isn't a lot to be said about it other than that it just hits everything that we're afraid of and makes sure that when they're gone, they stay gone. 4 mana is a lot, but the effect is so highly desired and detention sphere is incredibly unreliable that it is worth the cost.
What this change eventually allowed me to do in the main is to cut the slaughter pact for a second copy of smother. I love slaughter pact and think it's a great card in the list, but its main purpose was to answer things like restoration angel or obstinate baloth. The problem is that slaughter pact can't kill a bob which can be an issue for the deck because a turn 2 path to exile against a dark confidant deck is usually going to end poorly. Since I cut two pseudo win-conditions, I felt the need to add in a creeping tar pit. Coincidentally enough, tar pit is also great against planes walkers so I'm not terribly concerned about the switch in that regard.
In the sideboard it allowed me to shave a celestial purge now that I have other answers to annoying cards in those colors. I also get to cut the deprive since I now have an answer to a resolved keranos in matches where celestial purge might not come in. I also decided that having 2 condemn in the board to help with decks that require more removal might be just strictly worse than another supreme verdict so I'm trying that. I'm still unsure which is better, 2 additional 1 mana removal spells or another uncounterable wrath effect.
I moved all the lingering souls from the main into the side and added a third copy while keeping the other extra win conditions and hand disruption spells. The board also looks significantly cleaner which I really like though that's not exactly relevant. I'm still keeping with 3 counter spells, but I can't believe that straight up 3 negate is right so I may go back to a singleton deprive. I wouldn't mind a dispel but I feel like the counters that I side in should be able to answer what I'm bringing them in for in the first place which is typically blood moon, batter skull, scapeshift, and other counter spells. I've considered swan song, but the lack of lightning bolt makes me worry about giving them a free wind drake as it won't be as easy to handle because when counters come in, some amount of removal typically goes out making the token that much more relevant of a threat.
Hopefully the modern scene starts to pick up at my LGS so I can get in some proper games and get some actual results aside from a few hundred assorted test games since I can't afford to buy the entire deck on modo to play there regularly.
MODERN
GRIXIS FAERIES
FISH
NAYA BURN
STANDARD
RABBLE RED
E D H
OCEAN MASTER LORTHOS
Daretti's House of Artifacts AND LAND DESTRUCTION
SIDISI VALUE
thank god for a voice of reason to be back in the thread.
I like the list, i still disagree with think twice over some cantrip that has a real effect on the game (like shadow of doubt). Also, interesting to see you replace LS with utter end; i agree its a necessary evil but running only WSZ that can win the game scares me. I agree wtih Gordon, i feel like you need another wincon beyond WSZ; something like a planeswalker or hrad to kill creature (like batterskull). I just fear getting WSZ countered/discarded early and being left wtih only snap beats or manlands for the win.
I agree. Versatility is key. Putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't work as well in Modern as it does in Standard. I also think it's time to consider Leyline of Sanctity as a 2-of in the main, especially if you're relying on WSZ to win you the game. Too many decks packing disruption. There's also a lot of burn. Leyline is clutch.
edit: Honestly, other wincons are just overlooking teferi, mage of zhalfir as a legitimate beater. Plus, all this whining about WSZ would be cured if you just added another one in there...It's not like it has a mechanical problem, it's that your only copy might get discarded. So don't go to all these other wincons to remedy that; put another copy in. Though I have to say, a couple leyline is a great choice here too if you're that worried about discard because it essentially blanks burn which is really nice. Also, as for the remand discussion, i hope it was clear I never really treated remand as a counterspell, but as a less hurtful think twice. I'd just rather have 4/2 remand/think twice than the other way around. Though now i am more of a 3/3 man myself
Think Twice is the core of the deck.
No, Esper Charm and Cryptic Command are the core of the deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Think twice is easily the weakest card in the deck (arguably the weakest card in modern that sees competitive play). Its CMC 5 for 2 cards... Divination is CMC 3 for 2 cards and you would be laughed at for playing it in any competitive atmosphere. Its 2 redeeming qualities are that it's CMC is split in half and that it is instant speed.
That is why i argue we should be playing "do something" cantrips over think twice (like shadow of doubt that is against 80% of tier 1 decks able to 2 for 1 them; stifling a fetch, a pod/chord or a expedition map and then replacing itself, but i digress). Playing think twice is simply a necessary evil of that there are no good instant draw cards in modern due to fear of blue enabling combo.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company