I really like Unmoored Ego. Almost a strict upgrade from Slaughter Games. Slam dunk vs pretty much all the combo decks. Also adds a lot of % points to the tron MU. My gut is to trim all my copies of Stony Silence for it, and any Surgicals. Can also maybe skate by on fewer Field of Ruins.
I think mission briefing is a little tough on the mana base. It's UUU to recast an Opt, which you cant do if you have a W/B land or a field of ruin on turn 3. I don't plan on replacing any Snapcasters with it for now at least.
I don't think Missing Briefing deserves a slot (maybe some testing surely), but Unmoored Ego will definitely by a sideboard card in most of the combo meta environment. I like the card, everything is fine when you're trying to disrupt a combo (like Ad Nauseam or Storm). So drawing up to 4 cards isn't a big draw back.
Am I crazy, or is discovery // dispersal playable? 2 cc cantrip feels bad, but I'd love to play this and bin a copy of souls and possibly an unwanted card. Then draw. With the upside of bouncing a pw or delve threat late game. This is a lot of magical christmas land but bear with me and talk it out.
The front side really needed to be instant speed at two mana. Two mana preordain with a pretty bad bounce and discard option late game is not good enough on either side for modern.
Because youre not tapping out for this t2, and having to wait for six mana to cast a cantrip is pretty bad.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've been on Esper for a few years but playing pretty casual. I'm going to start attending some more tournaments and would be grateful to get some input!
First question....
How do you all manage / SB against Burn?
I've found it to be very difficult to have any chance really.
I bring in :
2 Blessed Alliance.
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel.
I cut:
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor.
2 Cryptic Command.
2 other cards (could be Logic Knot for example).
Don't side like that.
Jace is good vs burn, as are logic knots.
You probably want to cut a couple wraths (you want no more than 2), as well as cards like think twice/search for azcanta. This is definitely the biggest matchup where instant speed card advantage can be a liability.
Cutting a land (colonnade or field of ruin usually) is reasonable, though if you're cutting think twices and bringing in angels, you may not want to do so.
Cryptic command is pretty medium (you want some interaction for burn spells, but 4 mana is rough), so I'd cut them if I needed to cut more, but I'd cut all of the sfas/tt first, and consider cutting all of the wraths first too. If you have 4 path 2 push and bring in 2 blessed alliance and a push or two, you probably want cryptics over wraths.
I should have been clearer : I always cut 1 Supreme Verdict as well, so that leaves a single card to cut. A land could be okay (maybe even better on the draw), but sometimes Logic Knot falls short in the early stages. About Jace, the problem I have with 2 copies in the main 60 is that it could become clunky to have multiples, 4 mana spells are odd against Burn, and it takes time to set him up. I prefer having 2 Cryptic Command and 1 Jace to lower down the curve. But I think you summed it up pretty well Cody.
While logic knot can fall short in the early game, you can't cut all of your countermagic. You don't have the clock for that to make sense, and logic knot is better than cryptic, or think twice, or search, or anything else.
For jace, he wins and he can keep them off relevant cards while doing so. He's clunky, sure, but if you want a control deck thats not clunky against burn, go play jeskai, you'll never get that with esper.
Have been playing a bunch of different stuff recently, but the list I posted a few pages is still a good start, IMO.
I don't think you should play terminus is quantities other than 4 or 0.
I've been meaning to see if 4 hiero and 0 other cantrips is enough to support terminus (and then go max greed 4 charm 4 hiero like the old esper lists), but that might be too inconsistent.
It's been pretty smooth in testing. I think Jace and Opt alongside core Esper cards is enough to enable it. I went with 3 copies because it can be awkward in some matchups and it doesn't *really* kill the creatures, so in long games having access to a normal wrath main and side should keep too many creatures from popping back up.
So, switching off of *2 Field of Ruins and Planeswalkers to run Charms for control mirrors, *Fatal Push for Meddling Mages/Freebooters, and Seize in the board. Really, I don’t get the point of playing a *metagamed UW Miracle list.
The list that preceded your post is only down like 1 planeswalker.
I don't agree that oust is better than push at all.
There aren't all that many recursive creatures that we actually want to oust. Path + terminus is generally enough, and the upside of push when dealing with humans and the like far outweighs not being able to "effectively" answer a bloodghast.
Whether or not these esper lists are making the miracles lists worse is questionable, IMO.
Theres a pretty large amount of people who feel that UW miracles is better splashing a color for more removal. Usually jeskai for bolt/helix, but esper for push is also on the table.
Also annihilator's comment gives you several reasons. Whether or not you agree with them, you still hear them.
Not all UW decks play 5 walkers, plenty only play 4.
You can believe that Oust is 100% better, but the rest of us all believe push is 100% better so we're kind of at an impass there.
You might consider playing black because charm is still really good vs all of UW's bad matchups, and because thoughtseize + extraction is potent vs a large percentage of the format.
At the end of the day, play whatever you want. I'm not terribly interested in convincing people to play esper anymore. If you believe UW is better, have fun with it.
I can only offer you my opinions here, but spirits is a better matchup for esper than UW. Getting more spot removal + esper charm does make a difference.
Its still an unfavorable matchup, but less so.
Against wizards, having more instant speed removal helps. Being less reliant on 4-5 mana sorceries for card advantage also helps.
Burn isn't meaningfully better for UW than it is for esper, assuming you play 1 copy of timely either way. If you play more timelys in UW, that might swing it, but the mana base damage is frankly comparable to the charm/push damage mitigation IMO.
Storm, tron, valakut, adnauseum, mardu, amulet, and other control decks are all improved by playing charm.
Sure, oust is better than push against finks or voice or demigod, or eldrazi, all very common, very potent threats in the modern metagame that are otherwise unbeatable without playing oust....
I would say oust and push are about even vs burn. Ousting your own creatures for life is nice, but if you just remove the guide immediately you'll probably save 3 life on average.
Against hollow one, or dredge, you play 4 path and 4 terminus. Playing a single oust isn't going to meaningfully change much, and if you have rest in peace out, push is still better.
You can believe whatever you want, but IMO, the black cards in this deck are all impactful. Humans is a great matchup for esper. Its not the 51-49 it is with UW. Storm is a great matchup, not the miserable slog it is with UW. Tron is a great matchup for esper, not the 50-50ish it is with UW.
Every control and midrange deck is favorable for esper, not varying shades of "evenish" for UW. And humans, control, tron, jund, mardu, and storm are among the 10 most played decks in the format, I'm not reaching down for kitchen finks for prized amalgam.
And I'm still playing 4 cantrips. Most UW lists these days are only playing ~5. I'm playing 4 walkers, instead of UW's 4-5. I'm down 2 copies of field, sure, but I'm better against the field matchups on the whole than the "5 copies of field" deck is anyways, so thats no big loss to me.
I don't think ive ever said esper control is tier 0. Decks can become better without jumping tiers.
Otherwise, your "quotes" of mine are obvious oversimplifications, but you know that.
You're not even really trying to have an argument here. You know you're right, and want to listen to us justify ourselves, despite the fact that you'll never cede anything.
I mean, 90% of forums are "lets try X thats probably bad, but might maybe be good" because thats literally how innovation happens in magic.
I've played a ***** ton of bad decks in my life. I knew many of them were bad before I even played them, but sometimes thing surprise you.
I've heard that martyr proc is a bad deck literally countless times, and yet, its receiving some attention now from MTGO + A gp top 8 result.
You know what changed in that deck? Nothing. Sure, cleaning nova is new, or ballista is new-ish, but those aren't fundamentally changing anything. The deck is always been better than the attention it received, and it took a while for that to change.
And thats not the only example of this happening. The entire history of death's shadow is "that card is bad... ok its kinda playable... ok thats pretty good... ok thats even better". Sure, playing 8 threats, spending a ton of mana on cantrips to find them, and paying half your life doesn't seem like a good plan in a modern format so aggressive, but thats ok, the deck has been great, because people are frequently wrong.
And cutting green, the color of abrupt decay, and tarmogoyf, and traverse, and BBE, and become immense, and plenty of other things, and adding blue for... stubborn denial and snapcaster in my aggressive deck is actually a big improvement. Funny how that works.
I hate to feel like I'm not contributing to the conversation of Esper Control (stopped in because the deck interests me), if you feel that UW is simply stronger, why post in the Esper thread at all? What are you contributing to the conversation?
In order to try to contribute the Esper conversation, though, I do feel that there are some requirements for Esper (or any deck) to be competitive in the Modern format. One of those is having some way to "cheat" on mana. It seems that (nearly) every competitive deck has something. Delve, Aether Vial, Simian Spirit Guide, Tron lands, Mox Opal, bypassing mana with dredge, KCI, infect (where everything has a sort of "doublestrike" when hitting a player, and the damage can't be recouped), Mind Stone, etc. Even UW Control has delve in Logic Knot and can cast a board wipe for W.
So, how do we make it so that Esper can keep up, mana-wise? How does Esper consistently "cheat" on mana, and how can we increase it's ability to do so?
I hate to feel like I'm not contributing to the conversation of Esper Control (stopped in because the deck interests me), if you feel that UW is simply stronger, why post in the Esper thread at all? What are you contributing to the conversation?
In order to try to contribute the Esper conversation, though, I do feel that there are some requirements for Esper (or any deck) to be competitive in the Modern format. One of those is having some way to "cheat" on mana. It seems that (nearly) every competitive deck has something. Delve, Aether Vial, Simian Spirit Guide, Tron lands, Mox Opal, bypassing mana with dredge, KCI, infect (where everything has a sort of "doublestrike" when hitting a player, and the damage can't be recouped), Mind Stone, etc. Even UW Control has delve in Logic Knot and can cast a board wipe for W.
So, how do we make it so that Esper can keep up, mana-wise? How does Esper consistently "cheat" on mana, and how can we increase it's ability to do so?
I totally agree with this. I played esper for a year and then left it behind for that exact reason. Modern is all about efficiency. Esper charm is surely a great card but at 3 mana, it looks clunky in lot of situations (especially when your hand is clogged with cryptic command, 4 mana wraths and whatever costly spells you use to close the game).
Now I do not see any reason why UW could use delve and terminus more efficiently since esper can just do the same.
Has anyone been considering the new think twice with jump start ? Any reanimate shenanigans at instant speed (ie goryo) it could lead to in esper ?
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"When ~ enters the battlefield, do nothing, then choose a card..."
"Reveal a Dragon"
I think mission briefing is a little tough on the mana base. It's UUU to recast an Opt, which you cant do if you have a W/B land or a field of ruin on turn 3. I don't plan on replacing any Snapcasters with it for now at least.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Because youre not tapping out for this t2, and having to wait for six mana to cast a cantrip is pretty bad.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think Esper will get stronger Unmoored Ego is nice.
I bring in :
2 Blessed Alliance.
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel.
I cut:
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor.
2 Cryptic Command.
2 other cards (could be Logic Knot for example).
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Jace is good vs burn, as are logic knots.
You probably want to cut a couple wraths (you want no more than 2), as well as cards like think twice/search for azcanta. This is definitely the biggest matchup where instant speed card advantage can be a liability.
Cutting a land (colonnade or field of ruin usually) is reasonable, though if you're cutting think twices and bringing in angels, you may not want to do so.
Cryptic command is pretty medium (you want some interaction for burn spells, but 4 mana is rough), so I'd cut them if I needed to cut more, but I'd cut all of the sfas/tt first, and consider cutting all of the wraths first too. If you have 4 path 2 push and bring in 2 blessed alliance and a push or two, you probably want cryptics over wraths.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
For jace, he wins and he can keep them off relevant cards while doing so. He's clunky, sure, but if you want a control deck thats not clunky against burn, go play jeskai, you'll never get that with esper.
Have been playing a bunch of different stuff recently, but the list I posted a few pages is still a good start, IMO.
I don't think you should play terminus is quantities other than 4 or 0.
I've been meaning to see if 4 hiero and 0 other cantrips is enough to support terminus (and then go max greed 4 charm 4 hiero like the old esper lists), but that might be too inconsistent.
This is how I've been trying out Terminus:
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants: 24
4 Opt
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
2 Think Twice
1 Negate
4 Esper Charm
3 Cryptic Command
1 Secure the Wastes
Other Spells: 10
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Terminus
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Dispel
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
It's been pretty smooth in testing. I think Jace and Opt alongside core Esper cards is enough to enable it. I went with 3 copies because it can be awkward in some matchups and it doesn't *really* kill the creatures, so in long games having access to a normal wrath main and side should keep too many creatures from popping back up.
Fixed that for you.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I don't agree that oust is better than push at all.
There aren't all that many recursive creatures that we actually want to oust. Path + terminus is generally enough, and the upside of push when dealing with humans and the like far outweighs not being able to "effectively" answer a bloodghast.
Whether or not these esper lists are making the miracles lists worse is questionable, IMO.
Theres a pretty large amount of people who feel that UW miracles is better splashing a color for more removal. Usually jeskai for bolt/helix, but esper for push is also on the table.
Also annihilator's comment gives you several reasons. Whether or not you agree with them, you still hear them.
Not all UW decks play 5 walkers, plenty only play 4.
You can believe that Oust is 100% better, but the rest of us all believe push is 100% better so we're kind of at an impass there.
You might consider playing black because charm is still really good vs all of UW's bad matchups, and because thoughtseize + extraction is potent vs a large percentage of the format.
At the end of the day, play whatever you want. I'm not terribly interested in convincing people to play esper anymore. If you believe UW is better, have fun with it.
Its still an unfavorable matchup, but less so.
Against wizards, having more instant speed removal helps. Being less reliant on 4-5 mana sorceries for card advantage also helps.
Burn isn't meaningfully better for UW than it is for esper, assuming you play 1 copy of timely either way. If you play more timelys in UW, that might swing it, but the mana base damage is frankly comparable to the charm/push damage mitigation IMO.
Storm, tron, valakut, adnauseum, mardu, amulet, and other control decks are all improved by playing charm.
Sure, oust is better than push against finks or voice or demigod, or eldrazi, all very common, very potent threats in the modern metagame that are otherwise unbeatable without playing oust....
I would say oust and push are about even vs burn. Ousting your own creatures for life is nice, but if you just remove the guide immediately you'll probably save 3 life on average.
Against hollow one, or dredge, you play 4 path and 4 terminus. Playing a single oust isn't going to meaningfully change much, and if you have rest in peace out, push is still better.
You can believe whatever you want, but IMO, the black cards in this deck are all impactful. Humans is a great matchup for esper. Its not the 51-49 it is with UW. Storm is a great matchup, not the miserable slog it is with UW. Tron is a great matchup for esper, not the 50-50ish it is with UW.
Every control and midrange deck is favorable for esper, not varying shades of "evenish" for UW. And humans, control, tron, jund, mardu, and storm are among the 10 most played decks in the format, I'm not reaching down for kitchen finks for prized amalgam.
And I'm still playing 4 cantrips. Most UW lists these days are only playing ~5. I'm playing 4 walkers, instead of UW's 4-5. I'm down 2 copies of field, sure, but I'm better against the field matchups on the whole than the "5 copies of field" deck is anyways, so thats no big loss to me.
Otherwise, your "quotes" of mine are obvious oversimplifications, but you know that.
You're not even really trying to have an argument here. You know you're right, and want to listen to us justify ourselves, despite the fact that you'll never cede anything.
I mean, 90% of forums are "lets try X thats probably bad, but might maybe be good" because thats literally how innovation happens in magic.
I've played a ***** ton of bad decks in my life. I knew many of them were bad before I even played them, but sometimes thing surprise you.
I've heard that martyr proc is a bad deck literally countless times, and yet, its receiving some attention now from MTGO + A gp top 8 result.
You know what changed in that deck? Nothing. Sure, cleaning nova is new, or ballista is new-ish, but those aren't fundamentally changing anything. The deck is always been better than the attention it received, and it took a while for that to change.
And thats not the only example of this happening. The entire history of death's shadow is "that card is bad... ok its kinda playable... ok thats pretty good... ok thats even better". Sure, playing 8 threats, spending a ton of mana on cantrips to find them, and paying half your life doesn't seem like a good plan in a modern format so aggressive, but thats ok, the deck has been great, because people are frequently wrong.
And cutting green, the color of abrupt decay, and tarmogoyf, and traverse, and BBE, and become immense, and plenty of other things, and adding blue for... stubborn denial and snapcaster in my aggressive deck is actually a big improvement. Funny how that works.
In order to try to contribute the Esper conversation, though, I do feel that there are some requirements for Esper (or any deck) to be competitive in the Modern format. One of those is having some way to "cheat" on mana. It seems that (nearly) every competitive deck has something. Delve, Aether Vial, Simian Spirit Guide, Tron lands, Mox Opal, bypassing mana with dredge, KCI, infect (where everything has a sort of "doublestrike" when hitting a player, and the damage can't be recouped), Mind Stone, etc. Even UW Control has delve in Logic Knot and can cast a board wipe for W.
So, how do we make it so that Esper can keep up, mana-wise? How does Esper consistently "cheat" on mana, and how can we increase it's ability to do so?
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
I totally agree with this. I played esper for a year and then left it behind for that exact reason. Modern is all about efficiency. Esper charm is surely a great card but at 3 mana, it looks clunky in lot of situations (especially when your hand is clogged with cryptic command, 4 mana wraths and whatever costly spells you use to close the game).
Now I do not see any reason why UW could use delve and terminus more efficiently since esper can just do the same.
Has anyone been considering the new think twice with jump start ? Any reanimate shenanigans at instant speed (ie goryo) it could lead to in esper ?