So, do you guys feel like UW is now better for pure control?
Absolutely not. No.
Also cody_x I've got a 4 man playgroup together for most of the day, I'll keep checking this thread shoot me your "proper" gifts / teachings transformational board. Until then I'll play with the number starting by cutting an unburial rights and adding a clique
So, do you guys feel like UW is now better for pure control?
The lists are apples and oranges, one is not better than the other they are just different. In certain metas esper is better, in others UW, and maybe UWR is ideal. Even though UWR runs AV it's out of necessity and I still don't think that deck is any good. Sure snappy plus bolt is a potent sequence to have available, but the problem is that bolt doesn't do a whole lot and usually goes to the face after turn 5 which is not what I want to be breaking my mana base for. Unless the meta becomes incredibly saturated with 1 drops I'd like to stay with a control deck that's packed with action and without lava spikes.
i agree with all points of your breakdown, and i already knew from the start that going -1 sphinx, -1 Echarm, -1 TT and -1 snare would probably not be the correct way to go about it.
Since the dream is still esper with AV ill try building your "Tecnically esper" and testing it out. will post results, when i have them.
Currently im only playing Modern once a week at my LGS, so might take some time to gather results, unless i can get some serious testing in somewhere else.
I don't believe that esper charm and AV belong in the same deck. It's not just a case of not having enough room, it's about how the games progress and not having enough business to draw to. Casting AV on 1 and charm on 3 you're likely to discard to hand size which ends up wasting a portion of the extra card draw you got from AV which defeats the purpose of playing it in the first place.
Sadly in my local meta I don't have much use of going technically esper, the counter magic works perfectly fine and the discard just helps me close the game out faster. It's main use is to protect my zenith rather than stop something scary like scapeshift or karn. And since I don't play online I don't have much ability to properly test it even though the theory seems sound.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
-2x Remand, -1x Elspeth, -1x White Sun's Zenith, --> +1x U Rites, +1x Iona (for burn matches and mono-colored decks), +1x Elesh Norn (for creature decks, Affinity/Infect, Tribal, etc.), +1x Grave Titan (for BGx and Control matchups)
-1x Sphinxx's Rev, -1x Cryptic Command, -1x Polluted Delta --> +3x Gifts (I can gifts for Rev in a value package, Cryptic competes for the 4 spot, and with only 1 x-spells the 26th land isn't necessary)
-1x Runed Halo, -1x Supreme Verdict --> +1x Anguished Unmaking (replacing Halo was already one of my considerations, and this just makes Gifts a little better without running sub-optimal cards), +1x Wrath of God (again, I was already considering this change, and it pushes Gifts a little w/o losing anything.
-1x Ghost Quarter, -1x Glacial Fortress --> +1x Tec Edge (a split seems nice in this deck, which is already resilient to Infect/Affinity if you can resolve a URites on an Elesh), +1x Creeping Tar Pit (for Gifts, I'm not too concerned about the color issues with the set of Colonnades still intact)
So no thoughts on this list? Not even any comments about not including the ThopSwo combo?
I mean this is the least condescending way possible, but why is it we are all so antsy to try to change the list dramatically?
We have a deck with a very well defined and fine tuned shell, that with recent bans and unbans actually got DRASTICALLY better positioned against the metagame, and most of you want to...... alter it?
We've been working on nuanced card choices and boarding strategies for over a year, and the metagame finally shifts to a point where we are a well positioned outsider against a large portion of the meta, and our first response is to start cooking with different ingredients?
I'm certainly not trying to shut down discussion, but I'm just over here with the original 60 sleeved up (traded shadow of doubts for hallowed moonlights, that's it) and I'm crusing through most of the metagame with the transitional board.
This is what I have currently sleeved up, should be testing for roughly 10 hours or so today against various tier decks my team has already sleeved up.
I mean this is the least condescending way possible, but why is it we are all so antsy to try to change the list dramatically?
We have a deck with a very well defined and fine tuned shell, that with recent bans and unbans actually got DRASTICALLY better positioned against the metagame, and most of you want to...... alter it?
Because other legitimate options are available for the first time. There are no other actual control threads. So why wouldn't we discuss it?
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I got a bye, won two matches and then drew into Top 8, but had some interesting games and played some for fun against other people.
I faced a UW Tron/Gifts with ThopterSword, but it didn't feel that dangerous, as it's less Tron than GR; my counterspells felt like they went farther because they have less threats I need to care about. Post-board I just kept wrecking them with Thoughtseize, Clique, and Ghost Quarter and they just lost to card advantage, since they wanted to save counters to fight over their threats instead of wasting them on Charms and Think Twice. I will say that Thought-Knot Seer remains one of the worst cards ever and I hope I face as few of them as possible because they are just awful to fight through, especially in multiples.
There was also a straight Esper ThopterSword deck there and I basically felt miserable against them, because I could never really attack with Colonnade because of Ghost Quarter and Path, couldn't play my Sphinx's Revs or WSZ because they were playing a full playset of Remands, Snares, and Cryptics, and they could just casually drop Lingering Souls to get back their Swords and pressure me even if I held off the combo. Post-board it felt even worse because their Esper Charms bash through my sideboard options of Silence/Night, and I could just never stick any hate for more than a couple turns before they just got their pieces out. Extirpate on Sword seems like the best possible sideboard choice I can think of to deal with this problem, because Souls is annoying but won't win the game on its own without pulling back multiple Sword of the Meek.
My biggest issue was Burn and 8wack Goblins, which just steamrolled over me and seriously made me wish there was some kind of better counterspell option than Spell Snare, as it can't stop a Goblin Guide or Bushwackers, and even going one for one with Dispels, Negate, and Path against Burn, I just outright die too fast, way before I can ever drop a Baneslayer to fight back. I did manage to get one game on the Burn player by getting the dream Shadow of Doubt a fetch into Ghost Quarter play before resolving Revelation 3 times. Maybe I need to tailor my sideboard even more to fight Burn, but I thought having 3 Dispels, 2 Baneslayers, and 2 addition removal spell already in my main would be enough, and I really don't want to have to run Kor Firewalker because it feels so bad to have such good sideboard options with Esper but be forced to run super narrow hate cards.
He specifically wants to be prepared for BGx, affinity, burn, griselbrand combo. To that end, I think the list is fairly tuned. The mainboard Elspeth is because he's definitely new to the deck and wants to have an easier "I win" button than grinding zeniths.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Stockpile's UW list is *flame emjois*. Had me looking up the cost of a Batterskull and Ancestral Visions, which I haven't purchased because I expect them to drop slightly.
He specifically wants to be prepared for BGx, affinity, burn, griselbrand combo. To that end, I think the list is fairly tuned. The mainboard Elspeth is because he's definitely new to the deck and wants to have an easier "I win" button than grinding zeniths.
Love the list considering what you're expecting. But still I'd never feel comfortable without at least one generic answer like D sphere or anguished unmaking. I'm certain that they'll come against tron or lantern and it would add a large amount of percentage points by just having one in the list. If you're running gust for lantern I'd like to have a teachings in the side to have another "instant win button" against a complicated match up that I'd be 100% sure to face. Stony silence is awesome, but abrupt decay is still going to be in there so it's not entirely reliable.
Also since this is modern, it's fair that you won't see much control there so light counters in the side is fine. Though grixis has been quite popular and now that AV is around it's even more popular so I'd like to be prepared for them. If they build their SB correctly it can be a very rough match up in games 2 and 3, but if they're anything like the face to face lists you can shuffle up the initial 60 and curb stomp them into oblivion.
Stockpile's UW list is *flame emjois*. Had me looking up the cost of a Batterskull and Ancestral Visions, which I haven't purchased because I expect them to drop slightly.
And yes you can reveal shocks to the shadow lands, they do not specify basic island or plains. Though after playing with 1 and 2 copies of them in UW they we're miserable so I'd strongly recommend against them. Mystic gate is a great land for decks heavy on basics, it even gets around choke =P
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
He specifically wants to be prepared for BGx, affinity, burn, griselbrand combo. To that end, I think the list is fairly tuned. The mainboard Elspeth is because he's definitely new to the deck and wants to have an easier "I win" button than grinding zeniths.
I love all your posts amalek but if your friend wants to beat affinity, burn, griselbrand, and bgx, I'm having an extremely hard time deciphering why he wouldn't want to play 4 Spell Snare. Obviously against burn and affinity the card is bonkers (I would play 8), against bgx you hit confidant, scooze and goyf, and agasinst goryos vengeance, you hit...... the namesake point of the whole deck....
If he doesn't want to grind zenith then just replace the zenith with elspeth, that seems fair. But otherwise....I think you'd be doing him a disservice if you send him off with 3 spell snares trying to beat a bunch of decks that rely on two drops
I would heavily suggest staying away from the shadow lands if you aren't playing av. Even with them, eh.
They've been fine for me, but I haven't been particularly impressed. They haven't lost me any games though.
If you want to put AV in Esper, then Esper Charm should be almost exclusively utilized in Mind Rot mode. Charm in discard mode is better in the early game anyways, and if it gets countered, then that's one less counter in their hand.
If you want to put AV in Esper, then Esper Charm should be almost exclusively utilized in Mind Rot mode. Charm in discard mode is better in the early game anyways, and if it gets countered, then that's one less counter in their hand.
I still think that's an excessive amount of things that don't effect the board. We play the charm because it's an instant speed draw spell that is sometimes a mind rot, we don't play a mind rot because sometimes it's a draw spell.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
If you want to put AV in Esper, then Esper Charm should be almost exclusively utilized in Mind Rot mode. Charm in discard mode is better in the early game anyways, and if it gets countered, then that's one less counter in their hand.
I still think that's an excessive amount of things that don't effect the board. We play the charm because it's an instant speed draw spell that is sometimes a mind rot, we don't play a mind rot because sometimes it's a draw spell.
What stokpile just said, I agree with that completely.
Everybody should just re-read that comment a few times over and over.
I agree with that, too, and I never said that we should run AV. I'm just saying that if you did want to cram AV in the deck then you should be using Charm's discard mode more than the draw mode. Constantly making them discard 2 and drawing copious amounts of cards sounds like a lot of fun if it could be made to work.
I agree with that, too, and I never said that we should run AV. I'm just saying that if you did want to cram AV in the deck then you should be using Charm's discard mode more than the draw mode. Constantly making them discard 2 and drawing copious amounts of cards sounds like a lot of fun if it could be made to work.
This is a true statement. Should be obvious if you've actually played the two cards together.
Ari had a great article on Ancestral on SCG, today:
The immediate failure mode of a lot of the Ancestral Vision brews I see is that they play too many things that are going to be bricks when drawn. The obvious case is the Thopter Foundry pseudo-Stax deck, where your Ancestral Vision will draw you something like land, Ensnaring Bridge, Talisman of Dominance when maybe one of those three cards has an effect on the game.
Funny aside: I learned this lesson in Legacy with the Thopter Foundry decks in that format. Instead of Ancestral Vision, I learned the lesson via Jace, the Mind Sculptor. When you Brainstorm with blanks in hand and a shuffle and draw two more blanks, you learn a lot about what cards do and don't work together.
After people remedy this mistake, the next culprits that brick Ancestral Vision will be Mana Leak and Inquisition of Kozilek. These cards are so good that you want to play and have to play some number of them, but if you just have four Inquisition of Kozilek, four Mana Leak, your Ancestral Vision on turn 8 will be a bunch of those cards, which amounts to nothing. The maximum is probably around five or six of those effects in varying amounts. Even simple things like mixing Mana Leak with Remand to give the card some play later on helps a lot, especially as Remand is so good against Ancestral Vision.
I said this about Ancestral before, but there's nothing like quoting a platinum pro. The big benefactors from Ancestral are decks that dump their hand quickly and can use the burst of cards on turn 5 to get so far ahead that the Ancestrals you draw dead are made up for. Basically, if you suspend Ancestral on turn 1, you probably are going to want to Mind Rot with Esper Charm. The play pattern is similar to Mystical Teachings, another card that shines in low-resource games and encourages decks with piles of cheap universal interaction. Consider Wafo's Teaching deck, which somebody compared with this newer draw-go list:
At first glance it looks like a "pure control deck", in the sense that people take Control and divvy it up into tap-out and creatureless "pure control". This deck isn't designed to just draw cards till turn 12 though, it revolves around soft-locking with Teachings.
- Full playset of Mana Leak
- ONE Colonnade...
- A second copy of Teferi when the first enables the chain to reach Crovax for Thopter/Sword or Elves matchups
- Not a single copy of Think Twice
Teachings here functions in a similar matter to Gifts, where you can play it for value, but there's an ideal sequence where you can cast it on turn 4 and lock your opponent soon after. If the ceiling for Teachings is being an 8 mana Cryptic, it's not going to work out. Teferi could actually block the aggro deck creatures (Zoo) back then, before Affinity, Infect, Boggles, etc. Maindeck Extirpate was great against Living End, Thopters, Hypergenesis, etc. You can even cast it and Cryptic on turn 5.
An ideal sequence could be:
Turn 1: Disruption or Visions
Turn 2: Disruption
Turn 3: Esper Charm (Mind Rot)
Turn 4: Teachings
Turn 5 (Aggro): Flash in Teferi and start blocking on turn 6 when you have mana to protect
Turn 5 (Combo): Extirpate with counter mana up
Teferi goes on Moat duty, or Extirpate shuts down the combo. Mystical Teachings goes from an overpriced draw spell to a prison card. If you've played a lot of Teachings you know that the card shines in low-resource games, where your opponent has few threats remaining and you're free to blow your mana nullifying their remaining outs. My point here is that Mind Rot with Esper Charm is actually going to be Boss with Teachings in hand. Against Zoo they discard the bolt that stops Teferi from stonewalling, and against Combo...well Mind Rot against Combo is always sexy. Here's another example, the only other Teachings lists to put up any results in the years since that I know of:
4-8 extra copies of Thoughtseize/Inquisition. These pros weren't winning because they outdrew their opponents over 12 turns; Iyanaga even turned into a dedicated Geist deck post-board against Combo, and maximized his likelihood of quickly locking up the board on turn 4 with 3x Elspeth in the sideboard.
So the sideboard plan is obvious, but allow me to point out a few small intricacies to those of you who see this and go "oh, he's forcing gifts into the board"
Obviously the sideboard is pretty heavily reliant on gifts to beat certain decks, but it hits hard and does very powerful and game ending things. That's why we want 6 virtual copies of gifts (the two teachings find gifts). However in matchups where we don't want gifts, the teachings find the teferis, then flashback to find uncounterable (thanks teferi) Ionas. Vs Gb/x for example, we board in some fatties and unburial rites and laugh at Thoughtseize or liliana making us discard.
Vs burn we simply just Iona asap. Elesh or course gives us instant blowout wins against affinity and infect, while also doing really well against merfolk and collected company brews.
A big reason why I like this plan is because if they don't see gifts game one, and only see a couple think twices, nobody is going to expect us to be on POST BOARD gifts.
Also, there's room for nuance here, for example, versus a blue control mirror we don't have to use gifts at all we can just bring in teachings and teferis and card advantage them out of the game / counter anything with no contest. Vs something like Scapeshift we can teachings for teferi making their scapeshift easily counterable, OR we can gifts for iona on Blue, which would make them able to cast scapeshift but NOT able to defend it.
Finally, my favorite card choice, Hallowed Moonlight. There are other decks that will rely on the graveyard either pre- or post- board (or both) (co-co, griselbrand, opposing gifts decks, loam dredgevine, living end) Hallowed Moonlight stops these decks in their tracks, by basically making their "big turn" fizzle. It counters target unburial rites, target goryos vengeance, and target co-co (or infinite viscera seer persist loop) all while drawing us a card. Also has fringe applications against things like tooth and nail, kiki-restoration angel, and is a reasonable corner case play against a thopter /sword opponent who plans on making a million thopters this turn with his open mana (not ideal, just saying, you can)
Would it really be that bad to run the Gifts combo in the maindeck? I play UWb Gifts instead of full Esper, but Gifts is good against almost everything except BGx with 3 or more Scavenging Oozes. Being able to crush every Aggro deck game 1 is great and reanimating Iona works well against fair decks too.
Ok I believe my UW list is finally finished, sideboard and all. I can say in all honesty this is one of the best, if not the best, control list I've put together. It's squeaky clean, completely stable, the best mix of removal and permission in the current meta, has protection from blood moon, and essentially never loses to itself. Here's the current version, SB guide included!
There's only 1 thing that's somewhat temporary which is in the manabase. I cut the mystic gate for a plains which leaves me a blue source shy of where I'd prefer to be, but that's fine for now. Eventually it'll go back if blood moon and other nonbasic hate cards aren't so popular. I've tried port town, temple of enlightenment, and seachrome coast in the deck and I never liked any of them. They far too often messed up my curve or actually made me shock with a fountain so I could cast everything on time. The times where the other duals and various value lands like blighted cataract, faerie conclave, and scry lands showed up they were always just "nice." Never amazing or game breaking, but cute value.
The times where they were bad were actually crippling, the same goes for calciform pools. Nice and neat, but still too much of a liability for what I'm after with straight UW colors. So after playing with them a bunch the downside was significantly bigger than the potential gains so overall it simply isn't worth it. So the only other dual that I like in the mana base is the filter land with all of the other duals are their current numbers which are correct. The only time the buddy lands and battle lands were unfortunate were when I drew 3 colonnades in addition to them which is a rarity.
Elspeth is also staying in the list, but at some point I may end up cutting her for a deprive, negate, or another condemn in the main depending on how the format shakes out. I love her to pieces, but she might just be an obscene level of overkill. If that ends up being the case then some more early interaction would be desired, especially something for unfair decks.
The two knots and 2 remands have been working out quite well so a big thank you to everyone who helped me squeeze in the remands. Knot is still a serviceable hard counter with only 5 fetches in the deck, but being on the draw can make it uncomfortable to blank but that's a necessary risk I believe.
In the side the only thing I'm unhappy with is I want room for a negate, but I suppose it's fine as is. Perhaps I may cut elle in the main for a negate and replace the batterskull or angel with her in the side. We're good against midrange, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything in the side for them so elle will be somewhere in the list in some capacity.
At the moment, I prefer the stability of two colors and the raw power of ancestral vision over what black offers. I don't think running bolts and electrolyze is actually necessary so UWR is overkill against decks that we're already favored against and Bant might just be too slow in general. I love casting explore in a control deck and having main deck artifact destruction is a big deal with thopters around, but I have effectively 6 cards in the side that stops the combo and UWx isn't that slow. So once again the extra color is unnecessary. Esper charm is clearly more versatile than AV and thoughtseize in the side is big game, so that is a real hit to the deck's capability. But at the moment I want to avoid dealing 6 damage to myself which is one of the ways we get punk'd out by affinity and various aggro decks of the format.
One thing that I haven't gotten around to thoroughly testing is playing "technically esper" with black cards and a godless shrine in the side along with a watery grave in the main in place of an island. This would make the deck much better against combo, specifically scapeshift. Scapeshift and boggles are the only matches where the loss of esper charm is a very large hit against your chances so it may be worthwhile adding something extra in the side for them. If I went the pseudo esper route I might build the board something like this:
Is this actually a good idea or am I just being too clever for my own good? I can't quite tell in all honesty and there just isn't enough time in the day to test all the permutations of control decks and sideboards so I gotta draw the line somewhere.
Is this a good idea?
My UWR list is pretty similar (I play 1 less Logic Knot, 1 more Spell Snare, 1 Less AV/1 more TT, 1 less Sphinx and 2 more Snaps) with the spell base. I'm not a fan of Supreme Verdict right now. There is a ton of burn, infect, AV decks running around. For me, right now I'm on 2 EE + Academy Ruins, which imho is better against Bgx, Zoo, and stuff like Lantern/Affinity/Bogles/Tokens etc. decks. Supreme Verdict is at its best when it had Eldrazi around and is probably the best card against Fish. I'd probably run 2 EE, cut 3 verdicts and put 1 in the SB. That frees up 1 other slot in the MB for the 4th Spell Snare which has been probably the best card for me in this meta.
As for UWR, honestly, the mana is nearly as good as UW, the only difference is that you can't run as many LD in your base. Most UW lists only run ~2 more virtual basics than UWR (We run 8-9 fetches + 3/4 UW basics), which is a difference, but not as big as you make it seem. Helix more than offsets any life loss from the mana base in the aggro MU's, and combined with Snaps/Staticaster it makes our Infect, Affinity, Burn, Zoo, CoCo etc. MU's way better than UW's. UW plays more permission so your Living End, Scapeshift, Grishoal, etc. MU is better. Right now, I'd rather be on the lists with a better aggro MU. As for BGx...I've found that they're relatively similar, maybe a slight nod to UW due to having 3 GQ's.
For someone who says bolt isn't necessary or that good, you're thinking of playing 2 Condemns in the MB...which are just worse than Bolt in Modern by a fair margin.
By the way I 5-0'd with this fun list a few days ago
The core of my list revolves around my preferred control play, my format is pretty creature based, not a lot of unfair decks in my local stores. Though I dunno what'll happen post Eldrazi now, time will tell.
Anyones, the core of the deck involves running a LOT of boardwipes, 5-6. I have 5 at the moment and it works well with all the gas the deck has.
The other half involves running a multitude of animating permenants. Azorius Keyrune is actually one of my fav items in the deck. I have had many game 2s where my opponent slaps down a T3 blood moon and I shrug and put down azorius keyrune and they realise they aren't winning the race.
In total I run about 11 animating permanents, each serving different roles. Gideon is a great anti-aggro house, and he closes the game hard and fast. Collonade is great, we all know why.
Keyrune helps smooth my curve, kills my opponent (a flying 2/2 that is immune to sorcery speed removal is a big threat in this deck), and makes me immune to blood moons.
Myth Realised is a beast, and it generally soaks up any early removal right away, forcing my opponent to play the game on my terms and when they finally can afford to drop their own threats, I have the mana to deny anything they do. T1 Myth is gross. Its a pretty solid mana sink, so my opponent is forced to take action, since if they pass turn I keep gaining on them. It also just plays well into the general draw-go gameplan.
Finally, Gifts of course adds that potent inevitability that can just happen suddenly. T4 board wipe and T5 gifts package is absolutely brutal.
Finally, going the animating permanent route combos well with Elesh Norn. All my little keyrunes and friends suddenly turn into very scary 4/4 fliers. Often gifts is lethal in one swing, since elesh norn + a single animated permanent will generally take out half my opponents life, and if I was poking them earlier, they're now dead.
Id like to put 2 thoughtseize + 2 inquisition in the MB, but Im not sure what to cut.
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Absolutely not. No.
Also cody_x I've got a 4 man playgroup together for most of the day, I'll keep checking this thread shoot me your "proper" gifts / teachings transformational board. Until then I'll play with the number starting by cutting an unburial rights and adding a clique
The lists are apples and oranges, one is not better than the other they are just different. In certain metas esper is better, in others UW, and maybe UWR is ideal. Even though UWR runs AV it's out of necessity and I still don't think that deck is any good. Sure snappy plus bolt is a potent sequence to have available, but the problem is that bolt doesn't do a whole lot and usually goes to the face after turn 5 which is not what I want to be breaking my mana base for. Unless the meta becomes incredibly saturated with 1 drops I'd like to stay with a control deck that's packed with action and without lava spikes.
I don't believe that esper charm and AV belong in the same deck. It's not just a case of not having enough room, it's about how the games progress and not having enough business to draw to. Casting AV on 1 and charm on 3 you're likely to discard to hand size which ends up wasting a portion of the extra card draw you got from AV which defeats the purpose of playing it in the first place.
Sadly in my local meta I don't have much use of going technically esper, the counter magic works perfectly fine and the discard just helps me close the game out faster. It's main use is to protect my zenith rather than stop something scary like scapeshift or karn. And since I don't play online I don't have much ability to properly test it even though the theory seems sound.
So no thoughts on this list? Not even any comments about not including the ThopSwo combo?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
We have a deck with a very well defined and fine tuned shell, that with recent bans and unbans actually got DRASTICALLY better positioned against the metagame, and most of you want to...... alter it?
We've been working on nuanced card choices and boarding strategies for over a year, and the metagame finally shifts to a point where we are a well positioned outsider against a large portion of the meta, and our first response is to start cooking with different ingredients?
I'm certainly not trying to shut down discussion, but I'm just over here with the original 60 sleeved up (traded shadow of doubts for hallowed moonlights, that's it) and I'm crusing through most of the metagame with the transitional board.
This is what I have currently sleeved up, should be testing for roughly 10 hours or so today against various tier decks my team has already sleeved up.
4x Gifts unngiven
2x Mystical Teachings
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, shield of emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Condemn
1x dispel
Because other legitimate options are available for the first time. There are no other actual control threads. So why wouldn't we discuss it?
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Stony Silence
2 Runed Halo
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth Sun's Champion
1 Celestial Purge
3 Dispel
1 Vendilion Clique
I faced a UW Tron/Gifts with ThopterSword, but it didn't feel that dangerous, as it's less Tron than GR; my counterspells felt like they went farther because they have less threats I need to care about. Post-board I just kept wrecking them with Thoughtseize, Clique, and Ghost Quarter and they just lost to card advantage, since they wanted to save counters to fight over their threats instead of wasting them on Charms and Think Twice. I will say that Thought-Knot Seer remains one of the worst cards ever and I hope I face as few of them as possible because they are just awful to fight through, especially in multiples.
There was also a straight Esper ThopterSword deck there and I basically felt miserable against them, because I could never really attack with Colonnade because of Ghost Quarter and Path, couldn't play my Sphinx's Revs or WSZ because they were playing a full playset of Remands, Snares, and Cryptics, and they could just casually drop Lingering Souls to get back their Swords and pressure me even if I held off the combo. Post-board it felt even worse because their Esper Charms bash through my sideboard options of Silence/Night, and I could just never stick any hate for more than a couple turns before they just got their pieces out. Extirpate on Sword seems like the best possible sideboard choice I can think of to deal with this problem, because Souls is annoying but won't win the game on its own without pulling back multiple Sword of the Meek.
My biggest issue was Burn and 8wack Goblins, which just steamrolled over me and seriously made me wish there was some kind of better counterspell option than Spell Snare, as it can't stop a Goblin Guide or Bushwackers, and even going one for one with Dispels, Negate, and Path against Burn, I just outright die too fast, way before I can ever drop a Baneslayer to fight back. I did manage to get one game on the Burn player by getting the dream Shadow of Doubt a fetch into Ghost Quarter play before resolving Revelation 3 times. Maybe I need to tailor my sideboard even more to fight Burn, but I thought having 3 Dispels, 2 Baneslayers, and 2 addition removal spell already in my main would be enough, and I really don't want to have to run Kor Firewalker because it feels so bad to have such good sideboard options with Esper but be forced to run super narrow hate cards.
For friend B, we've settled on the following for the invitational:
4 celestial colonnade
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
1 drowned catacomb
2 ghost quarter
Card Draw:
4 think twice
4 esper charm
2 sphinx's revelation
2 remand
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
Removal:
3 supreme verdict
4 path to exile
Other:
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Celestial Purge
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Wrath of God
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 fracturing gust
1 teferi, mage of zhalfir
He specifically wants to be prepared for BGx, affinity, burn, griselbrand combo. To that end, I think the list is fairly tuned. The mainboard Elspeth is because he's definitely new to the deck and wants to have an easier "I win" button than grinding zeniths.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Can you reveal shocklands to Port Town?
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
Love the list considering what you're expecting. But still I'd never feel comfortable without at least one generic answer like D sphere or anguished unmaking. I'm certain that they'll come against tron or lantern and it would add a large amount of percentage points by just having one in the list. If you're running gust for lantern I'd like to have a teachings in the side to have another "instant win button" against a complicated match up that I'd be 100% sure to face. Stony silence is awesome, but abrupt decay is still going to be in there so it's not entirely reliable.
Also since this is modern, it's fair that you won't see much control there so light counters in the side is fine. Though grixis has been quite popular and now that AV is around it's even more popular so I'd like to be prepared for them. If they build their SB correctly it can be a very rough match up in games 2 and 3, but if they're anything like the face to face lists you can shuffle up the initial 60 and curb stomp them into oblivion.
I'll pretend that's a compliment =P
And yes you can reveal shocks to the shadow lands, they do not specify basic island or plains. Though after playing with 1 and 2 copies of them in UW they we're miserable so I'd strongly recommend against them. Mystic gate is a great land for decks heavy on basics, it even gets around choke =P
I love all your posts amalek but if your friend wants to beat affinity, burn, griselbrand, and bgx, I'm having an extremely hard time deciphering why he wouldn't want to play 4 Spell Snare. Obviously against burn and affinity the card is bonkers (I would play 8), against bgx you hit confidant, scooze and goyf, and agasinst goryos vengeance, you hit...... the namesake point of the whole deck....
If he doesn't want to grind zenith then just replace the zenith with elspeth, that seems fair. But otherwise....I think you'd be doing him a disservice if you send him off with 3 spell snares trying to beat a bunch of decks that rely on two drops
They've been fine for me, but I haven't been particularly impressed. They haven't lost me any games though.
I still think that's an excessive amount of things that don't effect the board. We play the charm because it's an instant speed draw spell that is sometimes a mind rot, we don't play a mind rot because sometimes it's a draw spell.
What stokpile just said, I agree with that completely.
Everybody should just re-read that comment a few times over and over.
This is a true statement. Should be obvious if you've actually played the two cards together.
Ari had a great article on Ancestral on SCG, today:
I said this about Ancestral before, but there's nothing like quoting a platinum pro. The big benefactors from Ancestral are decks that dump their hand quickly and can use the burst of cards on turn 5 to get so far ahead that the Ancestrals you draw dead are made up for. Basically, if you suspend Ancestral on turn 1, you probably are going to want to Mind Rot with Esper Charm. The play pattern is similar to Mystical Teachings, another card that shines in low-resource games and encourages decks with piles of cheap universal interaction. Consider Wafo's Teaching deck, which somebody compared with this newer draw-go list:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18921_Innovations_What_Would_Wafo_Do_Deckbuilding_Teachings_and_Tells.html
At first glance it looks like a "pure control deck", in the sense that people take Control and divvy it up into tap-out and creatureless "pure control". This deck isn't designed to just draw cards till turn 12 though, it revolves around soft-locking with Teachings.
- Full playset of Mana Leak
- ONE Colonnade...
- A second copy of Teferi when the first enables the chain to reach Crovax for Thopter/Sword or Elves matchups
- Not a single copy of Think Twice
Teachings here functions in a similar matter to Gifts, where you can play it for value, but there's an ideal sequence where you can cast it on turn 4 and lock your opponent soon after. If the ceiling for Teachings is being an 8 mana Cryptic, it's not going to work out. Teferi could actually block the aggro deck creatures (Zoo) back then, before Affinity, Infect, Boggles, etc. Maindeck Extirpate was great against Living End, Thopters, Hypergenesis, etc. You can even cast it and Cryptic on turn 5.
An ideal sequence could be:
Turn 1: Disruption or Visions
Turn 2: Disruption
Turn 3: Esper Charm (Mind Rot)
Turn 4: Teachings
Turn 5 (Aggro): Flash in Teferi and start blocking on turn 6 when you have mana to protect
Turn 5 (Combo): Extirpate with counter mana up
Teferi goes on Moat duty, or Extirpate shuts down the combo. Mystical Teachings goes from an overpriced draw spell to a prison card. If you've played a lot of Teachings you know that the card shines in low-resource games, where your opponent has few threats remaining and you're free to blow your mana nullifying their remaining outs. My point here is that Mind Rot with Esper Charm is actually going to be Boss with Teachings in hand. Against Zoo they discard the bolt that stops Teferi from stonewalling, and against Combo...well Mind Rot against Combo is always sexy. Here's another example, the only other Teachings lists to put up any results in the years since that I know of:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42386
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/gp-columbus-tournament-report-13th-building-the-purrfect-modern-deck/
4-8 extra copies of Thoughtseize/Inquisition. These pros weren't winning because they outdrew their opponents over 12 turns; Iyanaga even turned into a dedicated Geist deck post-board against Combo, and maximized his likelihood of quickly locking up the board on turn 4 with 3x Elspeth in the sideboard.
TLDR: Mind Rot -> Ancestral is good.
Would it really be that bad to run the Gifts combo in the maindeck? I play UWb Gifts instead of full Esper, but Gifts is good against almost everything except BGx with 3 or more Scavenging Oozes. Being able to crush every Aggro deck game 1 is great and reanimating Iona works well against fair decks too.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My UWR list is pretty similar (I play 1 less Logic Knot, 1 more Spell Snare, 1 Less AV/1 more TT, 1 less Sphinx and 2 more Snaps) with the spell base. I'm not a fan of Supreme Verdict right now. There is a ton of burn, infect, AV decks running around. For me, right now I'm on 2 EE + Academy Ruins, which imho is better against Bgx, Zoo, and stuff like Lantern/Affinity/Bogles/Tokens etc. decks. Supreme Verdict is at its best when it had Eldrazi around and is probably the best card against Fish. I'd probably run 2 EE, cut 3 verdicts and put 1 in the SB. That frees up 1 other slot in the MB for the 4th Spell Snare which has been probably the best card for me in this meta.
As for UWR, honestly, the mana is nearly as good as UW, the only difference is that you can't run as many LD in your base. Most UW lists only run ~2 more virtual basics than UWR (We run 8-9 fetches + 3/4 UW basics), which is a difference, but not as big as you make it seem. Helix more than offsets any life loss from the mana base in the aggro MU's, and combined with Snaps/Staticaster it makes our Infect, Affinity, Burn, Zoo, CoCo etc. MU's way better than UW's. UW plays more permission so your Living End, Scapeshift, Grishoal, etc. MU is better. Right now, I'd rather be on the lists with a better aggro MU. As for BGx...I've found that they're relatively similar, maybe a slight nod to UW due to having 3 GQ's.
For someone who says bolt isn't necessary or that good, you're thinking of playing 2 Condemns in the MB...which are just worse than Bolt in Modern by a fair margin.
By the way I 5-0'd with this fun list a few days ago
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399666#online
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Planeswalkers [3]
1 Gideon Jura
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells [31]
1 Unburial Rites
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Azorius Keyrune
4 Myth Realized
3 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
3 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Fetid Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Watery Grave
The core of my list revolves around my preferred control play, my format is pretty creature based, not a lot of unfair decks in my local stores. Though I dunno what'll happen post Eldrazi now, time will tell.
Anyones, the core of the deck involves running a LOT of boardwipes, 5-6. I have 5 at the moment and it works well with all the gas the deck has.
The other half involves running a multitude of animating permenants. Azorius Keyrune is actually one of my fav items in the deck. I have had many game 2s where my opponent slaps down a T3 blood moon and I shrug and put down azorius keyrune and they realise they aren't winning the race.
In total I run about 11 animating permanents, each serving different roles. Gideon is a great anti-aggro house, and he closes the game hard and fast. Collonade is great, we all know why.
Keyrune helps smooth my curve, kills my opponent (a flying 2/2 that is immune to sorcery speed removal is a big threat in this deck), and makes me immune to blood moons.
Myth Realised is a beast, and it generally soaks up any early removal right away, forcing my opponent to play the game on my terms and when they finally can afford to drop their own threats, I have the mana to deny anything they do. T1 Myth is gross. Its a pretty solid mana sink, so my opponent is forced to take action, since if they pass turn I keep gaining on them. It also just plays well into the general draw-go gameplan.
Finally, Gifts of course adds that potent inevitability that can just happen suddenly. T4 board wipe and T5 gifts package is absolutely brutal.
Finally, going the animating permanent route combos well with Elesh Norn. All my little keyrunes and friends suddenly turn into very scary 4/4 fliers. Often gifts is lethal in one swing, since elesh norn + a single animated permanent will generally take out half my opponents life, and if I was poking them earlier, they're now dead.
Id like to put 2 thoughtseize + 2 inquisition in the MB, but Im not sure what to cut.