We're coming up on 250 pages in this thread. We're also approaching the end of eldrazi winter.
I'm planning to do a primer rewrite in late april/early may when university has final exam week, because I already have my exams written up for the courses I teach and only have two exams myself; What is the consensus opinion on the starting of a new thread--Should we do what many of the other primers are doing and just replace the thread?
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I just want to chime in and state the following pertaining to the ongoing discussion:
I used to run 4x Wraths one EE, but since eldrazi that became 5 Wrath Effects (4 verdicts/1 ***). After April the fourth though I am going back to four wrath effects (not sure if the possibility for Thrun to become playable again, by itself justifies 1x Wrath/3x Verdicts or 4x Verdicts, but that's just a wait and see thingy) and the EE in the side. EE has been proven time and time again to be a fantastic card for me, especially vs Merfolk, Affinity, GB, Delver Decks, Hatebears(which is one of the few reasons the MU is tolerable), Elves, Infect and ofc Boggles. EE is a priceless card imo
Also, pertaining to the oh never-ending Remand/SoD debate. I've been running a split for the longest time, and it seemed decent enough. If the meta requires I am willing though to go back to the 2SoD(one on the board possibly) and one Remand.
On disfigure vs condemn. Yes, condemn is a fantastic card, if the creatures are attacking,(which is not always the case with Coco Decks/Elves and other dorks) and mostly in game 1. In game 2, if my opponents have seen condemn they WON'T attack with their Bob most often than not. Because of this reason, and because of the fact that this is the metagame that was present pre-Eldrazi, I am willing to argue that one condemn should be enough, along with a dismember or sth along these lines MB, and I have been always running a disfigre on the side which is in fact crucial very often. Condemn is fantastic in the attacking game, hence why I run a copy of it, but when I did run or 3, over dismember/disfigure, I was begging for having that "not attack" clause present.
Just my thoughts, not arguing that my approach is "THE CORRECT ONE", just my take on things. Cheers!
Just commenting to say I am considering your points, and appreciate the input. I try not to say much when I know I need to test out cards and give them more thought before responding. I'll run a few Explosives in my side toomorrow (if Modern fires, since there's a prerelease).
I do want to say that I don't advocate running a bunch of mainboard Condemns, but in the sideboard I'm always playing 2 against decks where the attacking clause doesn't matter (Infect, since you can Condemn in End Combat -- after damage but before main 2 to not get blown out by kicked Vines, and various aggro decks like R aggro, Slivers, etc.). I wouldn't play more than 2 condemn main.
We're coming up on 250 pages in this thread. We're also approaching the end of eldrazi winter.
I'm planning to do a primer rewrite in late april/early may when university has final exam week, because I already have my exams written up for the courses I teach and only have two exams myself; What is the consensus opinion on the starting of a new thread--Should we do what many of the other primers are doing and just replace the thread?
Honestly, I'm indifferent about it. If we end up with a new thread, please link me to it or something; otherwise, I'll never find it!
Sorry for the wall of text incoming, but there's a billion different topics flying around! I'll put it all in spoilers to save space.
Personally, batterskull is a better mainboard card than elspeth.
Elspeth is either unbeatable, or terrible depending on the matchups. Batterskull is much more moderate.
Kolaghan's command isn't a reason to not play batterskull. Dark confidant dies to nearly every single removal spell in the deck, and at best, trades with nearly every creature, and its not too difficult to kill him before he gives and value. Its no insight comment to say that he's good. Kolaghan's command is much less common.
Batterskull, like elspeth, is best played as a followup to a boardwipe. Batterskull has the advantage of gaining life, and coming down a turn earlier. On top of that, its fairly difficult to completely remove. While they can just kill the germ and continue to hit you, you're probably in a spot where a, you shouldn't have played batterskull, or b, you don't have anything else to play (just trying to get a boardwipe) and it doesn't really matter.
Elspeth looks quite poor against nearly every combo deck, as well as decks like BW tokens, affinity, infect, and even burn to a lesser extent.
As for maelstrom pulse, it kills elspeth too, and while leaving behind 3 1/1s is something, its not why you tapped out on turn 6.
I'll admit that Elspeth is pretty horrible in some matchups, but usually Batterskull is just as bad. Against combo and Infect, both essentially tap you out (and are easily countered); but against tokens or Affinity, if you've survived long enough for either to resolve, either will win you the game -- both allow you to outrace multiple creatures (b-skull gains life back -- allowing you to stay at a healthy life total while attacking, and Speth lets you block 3 ground dudes each turn leading up to an eventual ult or Sphinx's/WSZ). Elspeth is an acceptable play on a diverse board, however; and Speth is far better against control/BGx for leaving behind 3 bodies and not getting bricked by x/5's like Tasigur and Goyf. I personally prefer Speth, but the lifegain from Skull is admittedly really nice.
Remand isn't 100% dead vs fish (if I had t1 vial every game, I don't think I'd be playing esper), but its not an ideal card.
My experience vs loam is that remanding flashback spells is good, loam is obviously reasonable depending on what spot they're in, and remanding their enchantments is also good (as they tend to be the cards you care the most about).
I thought about it, an I changed my opinion -- both Remand and SoD are equally bad in certain matchups, I find Remand to be better since it's more relevant against a larger variety of opponents. I support Remand instead, even in the meta that was listed.
I actually like baneslayer vs abzan a lot, since it does beat a huge amount of their creatures while gaining you life.
Its sometimes a bit awkward to tap out for, but I would usually still board it in.
Every time I've boarded in Slayer against BGx, I've lost (except one time at the Louisville Open, when he didn't know I was playing it). Maybe it's because people at my meta know I play it, and leave in more Paths. But yeah, I've been foolishly boarding Slayer in in these matchups for the longest time while the whole forum (it seemed) was telling me not to. It's unfortunate, but Slayer just doesn't do enough there.
If you've ever condemned an Ezuri, doesn't feel so great.
Condemn is fine against elves, but terrible when you absolutely need it.
I also prefer to fight over infect's creatures not in combat. Condemn is fine against them, but not better than disfigure.
This example with Ezuri (and a previous example with Confidant) are why I play 4 Paths before I ever consider Condemn. You still have plenty of ways to answer threats that aren't attacking. Against Infect, it's very important to know that you can actually still Condemn after combat damage. That way, they can't use their protection spells as pump spells to kill you with at the same time (before damage). I explained a little in a previous comment, but you should usually Condemn in the End Combat step after taking a poison. The other benefit is that this incentivizes you to ask if they have any effects before before damage and make them either go for it (with a Condemn in your hand) or let you take 1 poison. Then you Condemn in End Combat, and it's like you did it in their 2nd main.
Personally, I would almost never mainboard halo (its expensive for sorcery speed removal), but two side is a nice place to be at.
You make good points though.
Yeah, I play the Halo in the main over a 2nd Condemn as a 2-mana removal spell with extra options. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I mainly support Condemn as a sideboard card, but play 1 main for aggro matchups and as an extra answer to manlands. Halo is a good answer to many things, including manlands, targeted discard, Lili (her ult is the scariest part), Valakut and Eidolon, Gifts Ungiven, Kolaghan's Command, and many more odd uses. Like I said, I could be convinced to play 2 in the main under extreme circumstances, but I'd never play more; and I'm happy with it as a one of with another as a sideboard option.
Personally, batterskull is a better mainboard card than elspeth.
Elspeth is either unbeatable, or terrible depending on the matchups. Batterskull is much more moderate.
Elspeth looks quite poor against nearly every combo deck, as well as decks like BW tokens, affinity, infect, and even burn to a lesser extent.
Personally, I would almost never mainboard halo (its expensive for sorcery speed removal), but two side is a nice place to be at.
You make good points though.
In what actual matchups do you think Batterskull is better? I think Burn would be the only one for me, with Affinity being slightly in Batterskull's favor (they're both not great, there.) Not sure how you figure Batterskull is better than Elspeth against spell-based decks; Elspeth kills a turn faster than Batterskull and leaves behind more when she gets hit by Karn or some other nonsense.
Please, don't sleep on the Halo...I'll be sad if something ever happens and I have to move them to the sideboard.
I have a question that hasn't been mentioned... What are we doing to the maindeck if Dig Through Time gets unbanned? I jumped fully into Esper about the time it was banned, and I briefly remember people packing 2x Digs at the time. What about now?
I have a question that hasn't been mentioned... What are we doing to the maindeck if Dig Through Time gets unbanned? I jumped fully into Esper about the time it was banned, and I briefly remember people packing 2x Digs at the time. What about now?
DTT isn't gonna get unbanned this soon after it was banned. Expect something like that to come off, at the earliest, next January (and my bet is they'd rather test visions first). That being said, if we get it back, I'll switch to playing discard, mana leaks/remands/more slot removal, and I'll jam 4 or 5 planeswalkers with Digs and leylines in the main. Some mix of sorin, Gideon, big Elspeth, and tamiyo. The problem with Dig through Time for esper draw-go is that it's very heavily taxing on the graveyard, which means we can't really run logic knot as more than a 1 of, and I think that the flexibility is important for an open metagame. Now, I think it makes a toolbox'd list for local small events much stronger, when you can have a good read on the metagame beforehand.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Dig through time changes the lists a bit.
Logic knot becomes worse (rune snags, condescends, or maybe three mana counters become better)
Think twice becomes a bit worse as well.
Generally, I think -4 think twice -2 logic knot, +2 ddt, +2 other counter spell +2 shadow/remand (in additon to the 2/4 you already play). That leaves the deck in an area close to where it is now. It may be worse than a more proactive version though.
That being said, its not going to happen now, I would be completely shocked if it happens within 6 months, and honestly, it may never really happen.
Bloodyrabbit, if you'd like to continue this via pm, I'm game, but I don't think it will produce reasonable discourse for the thread as a whole.
Actual matchups I think batterskull is better: (I'm just pulling from t1/t2/dev comp mtgs thread titles here) burn (no real specifics here, beats all their creatures, gains life, doesn't die to burn spells), most flavors of small eldrazi (the lifegain is worth more to me here), affinity, (turn 6 to not produce fliers is significantly worse than putting down a grounded blocker t5 and getting a hit in t6, while still leaving the blocker), merfolk (we cant realistically block, and merfolk can reasonably play around elspeth wrath. The life is more important to me.), Ad nausem (admittedly neither are great, but the lifegain is theoretically better, which makes it a step up from elspeth), UWR control ( we don't need to fear them tapping out as much, and they can't really answer a resolved batterskull, where as burn + fliers/pnk can be elspeth, especially if we're tapped out casting/defending her. Again, skull is not a lot better, but its a little bit better), zoo (depends on the flavor, I see more burn type zoo decks, or versions where the lifegain is the most important part. Worse if they play pridemages though), grishoalbrand (the lifegain is better here, no other way about it. Like ad nausem, it might not always matter, but it matters more here than it does there.), 8rack (again, both aren't great, but a batterskull races a rack, and it comes down a turn earlier), loam pox (the lifegain is more relevant), goblins (the lifegain is more relevant again), bw tokens (close-ish, but soldiers don't block fliers, and batterskull races a bitterblossom to some degree.), scapeshift (The lifegain again), Cruel Control (I like tapping out on turn 5 and not turn 6 against people who play 7 mana wincons. Also grixis relies on a lot of incrimental damage, which I like the lifelink again. Elspeth doesn't beat burn/tarpit much either.), Titanshift (again, I like the life), UR storm (both aren't great, but life is better), stompy (maybe? Haven't played this one too much, I guess I like the life just cuz they have tramplers, but the wrath off elspeth. Totally could be wrong here), Skred (lifegain, and you know, casting it), Blue moon (same as the previous), URx delver (I like the life, and elspeth doesn't block fliers. Elle does beat young pyro though, so again, I could be wrong here.), Faeries (see bw tokens).
I skipped a couple of the lesser played decks, but most of them were fairly even one way vs the other.
That list is way longer than I thought, to be honest. Maybe its a bit misleading, because its number of decks, not number of players, but number of players is all area dependent, so its not really possible for me to objectively answer that way.
I've played halo a lot, I still play it sideboard. Its fine there, and I have no reason to play it main. Its just not a card I want to see mainboard unless I only see certain matchups.
Been testing this deck on xmage and I have to say, it's the most fun I've had in some time. Quick question: in what match ups is it correct to board in Baneslayer? I find myself wanting to board it in a lot, I just love the cad, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.
Been testing this deck on xmage and I have to say, it's the most fun I've had in some time. Quick question: in what match ups is it correct to board in Baneslayer? I find myself wanting to board it in a lot, I just love the cad, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.
Anytime your life total is under immediate attack or your opponent is playing fair and is light on removal. For example it's great to bring in against affinity, but not so much against a control deck that will leave in some removal for your colonnades and against most combo tapping out is a death sentence.
Re: (un)bans
If anything visions will come off first likeamelk0 said and it's not likely to be this week. We have a yearly rotation in modern now so don't expect anything special until the next modern PT when they choose the next deck to rotate out.
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In all honestly, I can't see how Batterskull should be better against Eldrazi or Zoo. Facing the first, if you're able to put Elspeth on the field you aren't far from winning. Seriously, Elspeth is just nuts against Eldrazi. Now, I don't know if you played the card in that match-up (I'm referring to UW and Colorless, most likely the better versions between Eldrazi variants) but it does an incredible amount of work. Both abilities (+1 and -3) are totally insane, because at that point you just needs to take care of their Reality Smasher. With Batterskull... well, the germ is more often than not too little for his big guys (Endless Ones, Shashers and Drowner of Hope). It gets chumpbloccked infinitely, and to prevent some REAL damage you need to have at least eight mana available each turn. Without being able to do anything else.
*Eldrazi is the main reason Elspeth has started to pop up in most UWx decklists, indeed*
Against Zoo, and the likes of it, if they have a single Path or Qasali in hand/field, while you're tapping out for Batterskull... you're probably dead. You won't have the two turns left to bounce the equip and replay it. Expecially if you're already short on spot removals. Elspeth, when it enters, chumpblock till the end unless they've got multiple burns in hand. Which, still, isn't the worst, because you're about to gain six-seven life AND fog their creatures for at least a turn. Against less aggressive variants of Zoo, like Naya Company, they're pretty much the same. But Batterskull goes under any art/ench removals they could bring in game two/three.
Against Control, IMHO Elspeth is way superior because of the clock. They could deal with Batterskull token in several ways, making you struggle to cast Batterskull a second time, after the germ gets killed. When Elspeth lands, it lands. And if it stays on the field, they can't really beat him. (Tap-Pit is really manageable, but, again, maybe you face more difficulties against it because of the less removals).
I agree about Urx Delver. As I said before, it's probably the only match-up in which I prefer Batterskull. Nonotheless, Elspeth does a pretty damn good job too.
If we're talking about combo, I can't see how it can be useful discussing about which one is better. They're both awful. Being 1% or 2% better doesn't add or remove points, if you ask me.
Against everything else, it fails me to understand how Elspeth isn't the superior card (BGx it's only an example).
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@About DTT
Can't see the unban happening. Though, I'm inclined to think that the standard Esper list should'nt really replace the Logic Knots. They're too good for the archetype, unless 'till Wizards will reprint Counterspell. Maybe, and I repeat myself, MAYBE, it's more correct to shave on Snapcasters. Though, I remember the deck doing well during the Cruise era even without playing Digs.
Batterskull is better against little eldrazi (generally the red based ones). Probably not against the other versions. At this point, arguing with version of eldrazi is the best isn't gonna get anywhere, as U/W, Bant, Esper, GR, Colorless, Eldrazi Tron, etc have all gained a fair amount of traction. I still see b/w and rug versions.
For zoo, it again depends on the version. As I mentioned, if they play pridemage, thats an issue, as is hard removal. However, a lot of zoo decks play more aggressive creatures and have removal in the form bolt, dromoka's command, helix, etc, as less in the way of path.
Against zoo, tapping out for batterskull isn't ideal, but tapping out for elspeth is even worse. I would generally side out elspeths against zoo because tapping out so late for something that will never give you mana just feels terrible to me.
(How are you gaining life off elspeth? You're preventing further damage, but it doesn't actually gain you any life. Using elspeth to stabalize at 4 still doesn't beat exalted birds of paradise, or elspeth knight errants, or burn spells. Many zoo lists also play moon effects, which batterskull is also nicer against.)
Against control, it does depend, but most of the controlling decks I play against have a good deal of burn/tar pits/etc that if I'm tapping out will just kill a planeswalker. The main point is that if elspeth lands, and you somehow in the counter war while down 6 mana, you can still spit out soldiers, pass the turn, and it dies or they cast something better, and you aren't a whole lot better off.
Tarpit is a much more manageable threat when I have 20 life to work with, and not the 5 of elspeth. Past that runed halo doesn't even stop tarpits from hitting elspeth, nor do detention spheres/doom blade/slaughter pact/etc kill it. The major issue is that tapping out over getting elspeth in play often results in her just dying immediately.
Against a lot of those combo decks, the life isn't completely irrelevant. Against grishoalbrand or scapeshift, its very possible to gain enough life, coupled with other factors to cause them to not one-shot you. Even against ad nauseum this is true, though much harder. Maybe its not the best card here, and its still likely being sideboarded out, but it is absolutely better.
Against everything else, I assume you mean everything not on my list? Well yes, those matchups are generally elspeth favored. I haven't played against GBX in far over a month with esper because no one plays it around me with all the eldrazi along.
I don't think getting ponder or preordain really changes this deck. I don't think they're impactful enough. Brainstorm on the other hannd...
As for the why SoD/Remand question at the top of the page?
Have you played with the deck at all? Do they strike you as useful/not doing anything when you cast them?
Being able to stone rain someone and cantrip off of that for 2 mana isn't nothing. Being able to timewalk / explore isn't nothing either.
Yea, remand isn't a hard answer. Shadow of doubt only slows down their mana development. But those are not bad effects to have. Getting someone stuck of 1, or 2 or 3 lands in modern can often give you multiple turns of near freedom. If you resolve a rev for 5+ while they're still stuck in the hole you've dug them, thats good.
Remand very strong in control mirrors, vs snapcasters, trying to just take a spell off the stack, or remanding your own spells. Even just buying time against combo is quite powerful.
I agree with your SoD/Remand analysis Cody. Only thing is, I believe in our deck, and in drawn go control in general, SoD is better than remand in control mirrors, since the game relies very hard on mana development.
Not necessarily. For the mirror or similar lists, this is true, but many low-curve control decks can take getting stone rained even a couple of times and not be too worse off for it. Remand is in theory always relevant because it ruins their timing.
Morphling hasn't really been playable in years. Aetherling is the modern equivalent, and has actually seen fringe play, but its primarily useful for its flicker ability to dodge things.
Disciple has the nice ability to counter spells, but a 3/4 for 5 isn't great, and having to exile spells makes it a lot harder to deal with.
Glen elendra archmage is a better counterspell on a stick, but I would not play it in this style of deck. (In grixis or faeries, or other tap-out styled control decks it shines much more).
SoD is actually way worse in control matchups compared to the matchups we'll see regularly post ban.
Against Burn, Infect, Affinity, Bogles, DnT, etc, you're far better off with SoD, especially on the play.
In so many matchups Remand is the worst card in your deck.
In the matchups I didn't list above SoD is better in the majority. Tron, Kiki Chord, Abzan Coco, Scapeshift, etc.
I'll always prefer Shadow of Doubt in this type of list because it actually is a counterpell and deals with problem spells a good percentage of the time while having an alternate mode of stifling aggressive decks by taking them off mana early.
In my personal opinion Remand is only really better against midrange (abzan and jund) and control. Maybe Living End as well but we're very favored against them anyway, and post board they have backup protection with traps.
I don't think SoD is better against most of those decks, tbh.
Remanding things like rift bolt, become immense, plating, or random enchantments keeps power off the board, and saves you life when you wrath.
SoD basically just cycles, since most of those decks need so little mana to function. (If it was a stifle on the play, thats different, but at 2 mana, you still can't completely shut them down.)
IMO, remand is actually very bad against midrange (I usually side it out)because I don't care about the explore nearly as much. I'd rather have threats or hard answers. In nearly every other matchup (combo, aggro, control) I think remand is stronger, barring of course chord/elves/etc where SoD can be an actual counterspell.
Im currently building up a decklist and i came across a card named Disciple of the Ring. I thought for myself that it looks like a modern version of Morphling (but way worse). I think it would be still nice as a 1-Off, or am I completley wrong?
The biggest problem I have with the card (which goes for almost all creatures in the MB), is that it turns on their removal. Yes Colonnade dies to removal, but it's basically free since it's a land. You could cast Disciple of the Ring on Turn 6 or 7, but at that point you're probably better off casting a different game-ending threat. I think you could try it in the SB (against control, for example), but I don't think it really has much use in the MB.
IMO, remand is actually very bad against midrange (I usually side it out)because I don't care about the explore nearly as much. I'd rather have threats or hard answers. In nearly every other matchup (combo, aggro, control) I think remand is stronger, barring of course chord/elves/etc where SoD can be an actual counterspell.
That's exactly what remand is, though. It's just an explore in this deck because we're not pressuring the opponent and we end the game on turn 20. I'd rather remand a 3-4 mana spell, and midrange plays many. Also, remanding a plating? Good luck. They vomit their hand and if they have a plating in their opener it always comes out t1/2, in which case spell snare is optimal and very often the only answer at the time.
At the end of the day, Remand isn't going to win you games against aggressive decks. You could get lucky and hit infect's become immense, but that's going to be super uncommon if the opponent is intelligent. You can't just cycle Remand either. Shadow of Doubt is a much stronger card against the field because you will almost always get value and the upside is often very high.
Plating is usually the last card out of their hand though.
You don't really get value out of it vs decks like burn though. I mean, you'll usually hit a land, but the value doesn't outweight the fact that you're just going to die before it matters.
Remand certainly will not win against aggressive decks, but shadow and remand both come out anyways.
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I'm planning to do a primer rewrite in late april/early may when university has final exam week, because I already have my exams written up for the courses I teach and only have two exams myself; What is the consensus opinion on the starting of a new thread--Should we do what many of the other primers are doing and just replace the thread?
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Just commenting to say I am considering your points, and appreciate the input. I try not to say much when I know I need to test out cards and give them more thought before responding. I'll run a few Explosives in my side toomorrow (if Modern fires, since there's a prerelease).
I do want to say that I don't advocate running a bunch of mainboard Condemns, but in the sideboard I'm always playing 2 against decks where the attacking clause doesn't matter (Infect, since you can Condemn in End Combat -- after damage but before main 2 to not get blown out by kicked Vines, and various aggro decks like R aggro, Slivers, etc.). I wouldn't play more than 2 condemn main.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
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Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Honestly, I'm indifferent about it. If we end up with a new thread, please link me to it or something; otherwise, I'll never find it!
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
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Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'll admit that Elspeth is pretty horrible in some matchups, but usually Batterskull is just as bad. Against combo and Infect, both essentially tap you out (and are easily countered); but against tokens or Affinity, if you've survived long enough for either to resolve, either will win you the game -- both allow you to outrace multiple creatures (b-skull gains life back -- allowing you to stay at a healthy life total while attacking, and Speth lets you block 3 ground dudes each turn leading up to an eventual ult or Sphinx's/WSZ). Elspeth is an acceptable play on a diverse board, however; and Speth is far better against control/BGx for leaving behind 3 bodies and not getting bricked by x/5's like Tasigur and Goyf. I personally prefer Speth, but the lifegain from Skull is admittedly really nice.
I thought about it, an I changed my opinion -- both Remand and SoD are equally bad in certain matchups, I find Remand to be better since it's more relevant against a larger variety of opponents. I support Remand instead, even in the meta that was listed.
Every time I've boarded in Slayer against BGx, I've lost (except one time at the Louisville Open, when he didn't know I was playing it). Maybe it's because people at my meta know I play it, and leave in more Paths. But yeah, I've been foolishly boarding Slayer in in these matchups for the longest time while the whole forum (it seemed) was telling me not to. It's unfortunate, but Slayer just doesn't do enough there.
This example with Ezuri (and a previous example with Confidant) are why I play 4 Paths before I ever consider Condemn. You still have plenty of ways to answer threats that aren't attacking. Against Infect, it's very important to know that you can actually still Condemn after combat damage. That way, they can't use their protection spells as pump spells to kill you with at the same time (before damage). I explained a little in a previous comment, but you should usually Condemn in the End Combat step after taking a poison. The other benefit is that this incentivizes you to ask if they have any effects before before damage and make them either go for it (with a Condemn in your hand) or let you take 1 poison. Then you Condemn in End Combat, and it's like you did it in their 2nd main.
Yeah, I play the Halo in the main over a 2nd Condemn as a 2-mana removal spell with extra options. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I mainly support Condemn as a sideboard card, but play 1 main for aggro matchups and as an extra answer to manlands. Halo is a good answer to many things, including manlands, targeted discard, Lili (her ult is the scariest part), Valakut and Eidolon, Gifts Ungiven, Kolaghan's Command, and many more odd uses. Like I said, I could be convinced to play 2 in the main under extreme circumstances, but I'd never play more; and I'm happy with it as a one of with another as a sideboard option.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
In what actual matchups do you think Batterskull is better? I think Burn would be the only one for me, with Affinity being slightly in Batterskull's favor (they're both not great, there.) Not sure how you figure Batterskull is better than Elspeth against spell-based decks; Elspeth kills a turn faster than Batterskull and leaves behind more when she gets hit by Karn or some other nonsense.
Please, don't sleep on the Halo...I'll be sad if something ever happens and I have to move them to the sideboard.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
DTT isn't gonna get unbanned this soon after it was banned. Expect something like that to come off, at the earliest, next January (and my bet is they'd rather test visions first). That being said, if we get it back, I'll switch to playing discard, mana leaks/remands/more slot removal, and I'll jam 4 or 5 planeswalkers with Digs and leylines in the main. Some mix of sorin, Gideon, big Elspeth, and tamiyo. The problem with Dig through Time for esper draw-go is that it's very heavily taxing on the graveyard, which means we can't really run logic knot as more than a 1 of, and I think that the flexibility is important for an open metagame. Now, I think it makes a toolbox'd list for local small events much stronger, when you can have a good read on the metagame beforehand.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Logic knot becomes worse (rune snags, condescends, or maybe three mana counters become better)
Think twice becomes a bit worse as well.
Generally, I think -4 think twice -2 logic knot, +2 ddt, +2 other counter spell +2 shadow/remand (in additon to the 2/4 you already play). That leaves the deck in an area close to where it is now. It may be worse than a more proactive version though.
That being said, its not going to happen now, I would be completely shocked if it happens within 6 months, and honestly, it may never really happen.
Bloodyrabbit, if you'd like to continue this via pm, I'm game, but I don't think it will produce reasonable discourse for the thread as a whole.
Actual matchups I think batterskull is better: (I'm just pulling from t1/t2/dev comp mtgs thread titles here) burn (no real specifics here, beats all their creatures, gains life, doesn't die to burn spells), most flavors of small eldrazi (the lifegain is worth more to me here), affinity, (turn 6 to not produce fliers is significantly worse than putting down a grounded blocker t5 and getting a hit in t6, while still leaving the blocker), merfolk (we cant realistically block, and merfolk can reasonably play around elspeth wrath. The life is more important to me.), Ad nausem (admittedly neither are great, but the lifegain is theoretically better, which makes it a step up from elspeth), UWR control ( we don't need to fear them tapping out as much, and they can't really answer a resolved batterskull, where as burn + fliers/pnk can be elspeth, especially if we're tapped out casting/defending her. Again, skull is not a lot better, but its a little bit better), zoo (depends on the flavor, I see more burn type zoo decks, or versions where the lifegain is the most important part. Worse if they play pridemages though), grishoalbrand (the lifegain is better here, no other way about it. Like ad nausem, it might not always matter, but it matters more here than it does there.), 8rack (again, both aren't great, but a batterskull races a rack, and it comes down a turn earlier), loam pox (the lifegain is more relevant), goblins (the lifegain is more relevant again), bw tokens (close-ish, but soldiers don't block fliers, and batterskull races a bitterblossom to some degree.), scapeshift (The lifegain again), Cruel Control (I like tapping out on turn 5 and not turn 6 against people who play 7 mana wincons. Also grixis relies on a lot of incrimental damage, which I like the lifelink again. Elspeth doesn't beat burn/tarpit much either.), Titanshift (again, I like the life), UR storm (both aren't great, but life is better), stompy (maybe? Haven't played this one too much, I guess I like the life just cuz they have tramplers, but the wrath off elspeth. Totally could be wrong here), Skred (lifegain, and you know, casting it), Blue moon (same as the previous), URx delver (I like the life, and elspeth doesn't block fliers. Elle does beat young pyro though, so again, I could be wrong here.), Faeries (see bw tokens).
I skipped a couple of the lesser played decks, but most of them were fairly even one way vs the other.
That list is way longer than I thought, to be honest. Maybe its a bit misleading, because its number of decks, not number of players, but number of players is all area dependent, so its not really possible for me to objectively answer that way.
I've played halo a lot, I still play it sideboard. Its fine there, and I have no reason to play it main. Its just not a card I want to see mainboard unless I only see certain matchups.
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Tribute to Hunger
4 Mana Leak
2 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
1 Logic Knot
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Shambling Vent
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Runed Halo
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 things I want to address.
First: I play no Spell Snares because my meta doesn't call for it but if I was to add it in this deck I would go -4 Mana Leak and +3 Spell Snares +1 Logic Knot.
Second: Nobody at my meta plays Tron but if it ever pops up I would side 3 Crumble to Dust + 1 Steam Vents.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
BGX Midrange
URX Control
Anytime your life total is under immediate attack or your opponent is playing fair and is light on removal. For example it's great to bring in against affinity, but not so much against a control deck that will leave in some removal for your colonnades and against most combo tapping out is a death sentence.
Re: (un)bans
If anything visions will come off first likeamelk0 said and it's not likely to be this week. We have a yearly rotation in modern now so don't expect anything special until the next modern PT when they choose the next deck to rotate out.
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
Batterskull is better against little eldrazi (generally the red based ones). Probably not against the other versions. At this point, arguing with version of eldrazi is the best isn't gonna get anywhere, as U/W, Bant, Esper, GR, Colorless, Eldrazi Tron, etc have all gained a fair amount of traction. I still see b/w and rug versions.
For zoo, it again depends on the version. As I mentioned, if they play pridemage, thats an issue, as is hard removal. However, a lot of zoo decks play more aggressive creatures and have removal in the form bolt, dromoka's command, helix, etc, as less in the way of path.
Against zoo, tapping out for batterskull isn't ideal, but tapping out for elspeth is even worse. I would generally side out elspeths against zoo because tapping out so late for something that will never give you mana just feels terrible to me.
(How are you gaining life off elspeth? You're preventing further damage, but it doesn't actually gain you any life. Using elspeth to stabalize at 4 still doesn't beat exalted birds of paradise, or elspeth knight errants, or burn spells. Many zoo lists also play moon effects, which batterskull is also nicer against.)
Against control, it does depend, but most of the controlling decks I play against have a good deal of burn/tar pits/etc that if I'm tapping out will just kill a planeswalker. The main point is that if elspeth lands, and you somehow in the counter war while down 6 mana, you can still spit out soldiers, pass the turn, and it dies or they cast something better, and you aren't a whole lot better off.
Tarpit is a much more manageable threat when I have 20 life to work with, and not the 5 of elspeth. Past that runed halo doesn't even stop tarpits from hitting elspeth, nor do detention spheres/doom blade/slaughter pact/etc kill it. The major issue is that tapping out over getting elspeth in play often results in her just dying immediately.
Against a lot of those combo decks, the life isn't completely irrelevant. Against grishoalbrand or scapeshift, its very possible to gain enough life, coupled with other factors to cause them to not one-shot you. Even against ad nauseum this is true, though much harder. Maybe its not the best card here, and its still likely being sideboarded out, but it is absolutely better.
Against everything else, I assume you mean everything not on my list? Well yes, those matchups are generally elspeth favored. I haven't played against GBX in far over a month with esper because no one plays it around me with all the eldrazi along.
I don't think getting ponder or preordain really changes this deck. I don't think they're impactful enough. Brainstorm on the other hannd...
As for the why SoD/Remand question at the top of the page?
Have you played with the deck at all? Do they strike you as useful/not doing anything when you cast them?
Being able to stone rain someone and cantrip off of that for 2 mana isn't nothing. Being able to timewalk / explore isn't nothing either.
Yea, remand isn't a hard answer. Shadow of doubt only slows down their mana development. But those are not bad effects to have. Getting someone stuck of 1, or 2 or 3 lands in modern can often give you multiple turns of near freedom. If you resolve a rev for 5+ while they're still stuck in the hole you've dug them, thats good.
Remand very strong in control mirrors, vs snapcasters, trying to just take a spell off the stack, or remanding your own spells. Even just buying time against combo is quite powerful.
Not necessarily. For the mirror or similar lists, this is true, but many low-curve control decks can take getting stone rained even a couple of times and not be too worse off for it. Remand is in theory always relevant because it ruins their timing.
Morphling hasn't really been playable in years. Aetherling is the modern equivalent, and has actually seen fringe play, but its primarily useful for its flicker ability to dodge things.
Disciple has the nice ability to counter spells, but a 3/4 for 5 isn't great, and having to exile spells makes it a lot harder to deal with.
Glen elendra archmage is a better counterspell on a stick, but I would not play it in this style of deck. (In grixis or faeries, or other tap-out styled control decks it shines much more).
Against Burn, Infect, Affinity, Bogles, DnT, etc, you're far better off with SoD, especially on the play.
In so many matchups Remand is the worst card in your deck.
In the matchups I didn't list above SoD is better in the majority. Tron, Kiki Chord, Abzan Coco, Scapeshift, etc.
I'll always prefer Shadow of Doubt in this type of list because it actually is a counterpell and deals with problem spells a good percentage of the time while having an alternate mode of stifling aggressive decks by taking them off mana early.
In my personal opinion Remand is only really better against midrange (abzan and jund) and control. Maybe Living End as well but we're very favored against them anyway, and post board they have backup protection with traps.
Remanding things like rift bolt, become immense, plating, or random enchantments keeps power off the board, and saves you life when you wrath.
SoD basically just cycles, since most of those decks need so little mana to function. (If it was a stifle on the play, thats different, but at 2 mana, you still can't completely shut them down.)
IMO, remand is actually very bad against midrange (I usually side it out)because I don't care about the explore nearly as much. I'd rather have threats or hard answers. In nearly every other matchup (combo, aggro, control) I think remand is stronger, barring of course chord/elves/etc where SoD can be an actual counterspell.
The biggest problem I have with the card (which goes for almost all creatures in the MB), is that it turns on their removal. Yes Colonnade dies to removal, but it's basically free since it's a land. You could cast Disciple of the Ring on Turn 6 or 7, but at that point you're probably better off casting a different game-ending threat. I think you could try it in the SB (against control, for example), but I don't think it really has much use in the MB.
WUBR [url=http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-04-17-ad-nauseam/]Ad Nauseam WUBR
That's exactly what remand is, though. It's just an explore in this deck because we're not pressuring the opponent and we end the game on turn 20. I'd rather remand a 3-4 mana spell, and midrange plays many. Also, remanding a plating? Good luck. They vomit their hand and if they have a plating in their opener it always comes out t1/2, in which case spell snare is optimal and very often the only answer at the time.
At the end of the day, Remand isn't going to win you games against aggressive decks. You could get lucky and hit infect's become immense, but that's going to be super uncommon if the opponent is intelligent. You can't just cycle Remand either. Shadow of Doubt is a much stronger card against the field because you will almost always get value and the upside is often very high.
You don't really get value out of it vs decks like burn though. I mean, you'll usually hit a land, but the value doesn't outweight the fact that you're just going to die before it matters.
Remand certainly will not win against aggressive decks, but shadow and remand both come out anyways.