Liliana is best when you have an effective clock, or a way to negate the having to discard every turn- Liliana + Loam, for example.
Esper Control is about negating the opponent's threats while accruing card advantage until you can just go "Alright, White Sun's Zenith, swing for 14 a turn." Liliana makes that more difficult.
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[quois tee from="radouf »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/571123-modern-esper-control?comment=79"]Hey guys. No love for Liliana of the veil? At all ? Would that be a whole different build ?[/quote]
She is not good in a late game focused deck. She e cells in decks that strive in low resource situations like any of the rock decks. If you like to play discard and lili you are better off having the more effecient beaters in tarmogoyf and scooze.
Hey guys. No love for Liliana of the veil? At all ? Would that be a whole different build ?
LotV wants to be played in one of three types of decks
a) a deck that has more powerful individual cards; basically a deck that wants to play in top deck mode (BGx for example)
b) a deck that wants to fill the graveyard
c) a deck that wants both you and ur opponent to be empty handed
Esper control is none of those decks; its a late game, card advantage deck. It wants a full grip of cards so it has answers to everything your opponent may do. There may be an Esper deck that wants LotV, but its going to be much more midrange and proactive than anything you will most likely find in here.
Is anyone else digging Murderous Cut as a 1-2 of? Obviously you couldn't play Logic Knot in the same main deck as it, but just with fetching twice, it's a Murder. If you have already cast something, or been Thoughseized (Or after doing some thoughtseizing), it can easily be better than Smother, Doom Blade, or Go for the Throat. The possibility of it being a 1 drop makes it even better for me.
Utter End is just better as a 1 of exspensive or difficult to cast 1 for 1 removal. I even have my doubts on utter end but it is definitely better than Murderous cut.
Hey guys. No love for Liliana of the veil? At all ? Would that be a whole different build ?
LotV wants to be played in one of three types of decks
a) a deck that has more powerful individual cards; basically a deck that wants to play in top deck mode (BGx for example)
b) a deck that wants to fill the graveyard
c) a deck that wants both you and ur opponent to be empty handed
Esper control is none of those decks; its a late game, card advantage deck. It wants a full grip of cards so it has answers to everything your opponent may do. There may be an Esper deck that wants LotV, but its going to be much more midrange and proactive than anything you will most likely find in here.
This looks a little like its going out of its way to play planeswalkers, I don't think you can play a list with no counters outside of snare and cryptic. If you aren't holding removal you die to twin if they have any form of disruption and combo backup. I think the lilianas are fine, just up the souls, cut both elspeth and tamiyo and a gideon and you'll be a bit better off. You are also weak to liliana of the veil yourself, maybe make some colonnades creeping tarpits?
I understand where you're coming from, but EOT Esper Charm (which could potentially put them at 1 or 0 cards) into a Walker is powerful. Those 6 counters are just fine in tapout control. If anything, I'd add two more counters (probably 2 Negate) or alter my board to include more counters for matches where they're needed. I also swapped Tamiyo for Sun's Champion.
Regarding Utter End, although it is expensive, would we need Celestial Purge anymore? It does cost 2 less but it's also more narrow.
First off, I want to thank all those people who replied with insightful reasons for the lack of certain cards like dark confidant and Lili. These kinds of explanations really helped me get over the "put good stuff in your colors" kind of esper deck. It focused the theme of the deck and really am understanding esper, but general deck building theory, better now, so thanks.
I'm still not sure on how to answer blood moon well other than to put all of your answers in one color and always fetch those kind of basics. I used to run a singleton chromatic lantern and then other artifact/enchantment hate I had in white.
I'm just about finished with a list and will post it soon her to see what you guys think. I really like remand with esper charm btw. and it's great with thoughtseize. I used to play echoing truth to deal with permanents, but I do think utter end is a better choice for permanents.
Utter End can take out a Blood Moon, but Celestial Purge is a more effecient option.
Remand with Esper Charm is good, as well as any bounce spell like Echoing Truth. However, Liliana of the Veil should not be ruled out. I've presented a list with her that is actually performing very well. I've gone 9-3 so far, winning vs Pod , UW Tron, UWR x2, Affinity, GW Hatebears, The Rock, Junk, and Splinter Twin. I lost to Scapeshift, Affinity, and Mono Red Burn. Even the losses were tight though. Scapeshift won 2-0. I may opt for 2 Torpor Orb.
It's essentially the same as the original but cuts a cryptic, a spell snare and 2 think twice for 2 remand, 1 utter end and 1 snapcaster. I am having trouble justifying cutting shadow of doubt since it's so good in many matchups (fetches, scapeshift, pod especially, and even tron when they crack expedition map) and does what this deck apparently wants to do, which is cycle at instant speed. I haven't seen it in many lists, but i think it helps a lot in our weaknesses. My sideboard is really what changes but I guess that's meta dependent.
Fracturing gust is a house against affinity and it literally causes them to scoop every time i've played it. I think if you can get to turn 5 against affinity, it's better than disenchant. dismember is there as a 5th path, and slaughter only because it's cool, but i realize it's better in tap out control. utter end cause why not. rain of tears against tron is nice and can be snapcasted. batterskull cause lifelink is great and it's a house in grindy matchups.
Any suggestions are welcome. particuarly in the sideboard. I just don't think a lot of stuff can be taken out of main if you are going for the true untap go durdle control. I was trying to play something like this a while back but I didn't know how to take it to the next level. I was scared of esper charm because of the mana reqs and i was playing more creatures, but I think virtually creatureless is the way to go.
My thoughts are that utter end is a test card and could easily be moved to the side in favor of more counter magic, but I think the extra snapcaster is worth it. I also think I'd rather have 4 remands than 4 think twice, though I could easily board 2 shadow of doubts and have the full playset of both remand and think twice.
I've had a concern about running 4 copies of Remand in any Modern deck (even pure tempo decks where the card is obviously insane) because of the presence of Voice of Resurgence, the fact that it does next to nothing against Affinity, and it not being great against Burn either. These are the three most popular decks on MTGO right now, and having a 4-of that isn't good against any of them grinds against what I want to be doing as a successful MTGO player. I run 3 copies in Twin and Mono-U Tron for that reason, and certainly can't see why I'd want 4 copies in this deck.
I guess I've just never been sad to draw a remand. It's the one card in the deck I am always happy to see. The cantrip is really good and works great with logic knot. See, I'd rather draw a remand than a think twice, that's really why I run the full set. Like the primer said, I don't think of or rely on remand as a counter, but as a draw spell. You're right to point out that it's not good against low CMC spells like Voice of resurgence and lightning bolt, but you don't point out all the decks it is good in, namely against the same decks you just mentioned. Against pod, it's a great early counter against birthing pod and in UWR it's great against any kind of counters (where you remand your own spell back to your hand to effectively counter the counter). Honestly not being great against Affinity game 1 is just not good enough reason to pull such a great cantrip.
I think you may be right about it not being the most effective counter in Modern, but I think for this deck you need to look at it as a very useful cantrip, rather than a counter. I'm just not convinced that it's a dead card in any matchup and really can't ever bring myself to cut even one. The cantrip is really that good, and the counter is just gravy that adds tempo so you can pull out a solid logic knot or cryptic command next turn. And that's before you add the fact that it combos well with esper charm and thoughtseize
It's not about Voice being low Cmc but more about how they get a huge guy when you remand stuff when he's out. I'd just never run 4, 2-3 is the sweet spot in my experience. I'm by no means an expert with this deck though.
Since we're on the topic of Tron, Geist of Saint Traft has been stellar in this matchup. He provides a quick clock and forces rushed play.
By the way, do we just fold to Blood Moon? I think Thoughtseize, Negate, Disenchant, and Celestial Purge can help, but I think a proactive approach may be better, like Meddling Mage. I've scooped to Choke, too.
Since we're on the topic of Tron, Geist of Saint Traft has been stellar in this matchup. He provides a quick clock and forces rushed play.
By the way, do we just fold to Blood Moon? I think Thoughtseize, Negate, Disenchant, and Celestial Purge can help, but I think a proactive approach may be better, like Meddling Mage. I've scooped to Choke, too.
Blood Moon decks will just bolt Meddling Mage.
You're right and Nevermore may be too slow. The best way to handle it is via Enchantment removal, Celestial Purge, or being proactive with hand disruption.
I guess I've just never been sad to draw a remand. It's the one card in the deck I am always happy to see. The cantrip is really good and works great with logic knot. See, I'd rather draw a remand than a think twice, that's really why I run the full set. Like the primer said, I don't think of or rely on remand as a counter, but as a draw spell. You're right to point out that it's not good against low CMC spells like Voice of resurgence and lightning bolt, but you don't point out all the decks it is good in, namely against the same decks you just mentioned. Against pod, it's a great early counter against birthing pod and in UWR it's great against any kind of counters (where you remand your own spell back to your hand to effectively counter the counter). Honestly not being great against Affinity game 1 is just not good enough reason to pull such a great cantrip.
I think you may be right about it not being the most effective counter in Modern, but I think for this deck you need to look at it as a very useful cantrip, rather than a counter. I'm just not convinced that it's a dead card in any matchup and really can't ever bring myself to cut even one. The cantrip is really that good, and the counter is just gravy that adds tempo so you can pull out a solid logic knot or cryptic command next turn. And that's before you add the fact that it combos well with esper charm and thoughtseize
I'd put scry 2 at only a little weaker than a cantrip, so I always prefer Condescend to Remand in Control decks. Besides, Remand is just a cantrip that hoses Snapcaster Mage in the late-game and makes you spend another card to answer what you Remanded. While Remand is a great card, it just doesn't fit into a Control shell. I also really dislike you cutting a Cryptic for it. Remand might be decent against every deck in your opinion (though it really is worse than Condescend against everything except for Storm), but Cryptic Command is great against every deck.
played a few games with my list. I actually modified to go -1 remand for +1 think twice to make sure I hit my land drops, but I can't say enough for remand so i'm keeping a 3/3 split with think twice. though I must say the standout is honestly logic knot such a good card. IMO way better than condescend, only because of how you can ensure a hard counter even if they have like 8 untapped lands. With a full hand, you can easily choose which cards to exile and not hurt your snapcaster mage.
If anything I would switch out a spell snare for cryptic command before remand for the 2/4 split. I know Guillaume plays 4 spell snare, but it really bothers me how dead 2 copies can be in your hand. That being said, the more I play this deck in particular, the more I see his original build being the best at what it does and for my own flavor would cut 2 spell snare for a remand and a snapcaster.
Hey guys. No love for Liliana of the veil? At all ? Would that be a whole different build ?
LotV wants to be played in one of three types of decks
a) a deck that has more powerful individual cards; basically a deck that wants to play in top deck mode (BGx for example)
b) a deck that wants to fill the graveyard
c) a deck that wants both you and ur opponent to be empty handed
Esper control is none of those decks; its a late game, card advantage deck. It wants a full grip of cards so it has answers to everything your opponent may do. There may be an Esper deck that wants LotV, but its going to be much more midrange and proactive than anything you will most likely find in here.
To be fair, Liliana of the Veil does see a fair amount of play in control decks (Esper and others) in legacy. She is good in situations where both players having fewer resources puts you at an advantage despite your being a control deck, against combo for instance. In Modern I think she is good against Scapeshift and Storm, and belongs in the sideboard of a blue control deck if anywhere at all. In control mirrors she seems ok to bring in, but I'd sooner play Liliana Vess over her in those matchups. Overall, I think there are too few matchups where Liliana of the Veil is strong to justify sideboard slots.
Utter End can take out a Blood Moon, but Celestial Purge is a more effecient option.
I like Utter End as a mainboard Mystical Teachings target to handle problematic permanents immune to your other maindecked removal like Birthing Pod and Keranos, God of Storms, but isn't dead if none of these permanents show up. Post board I would advise boarding it out for less expensive options like Celestial Purge and Disenchant.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Esper Control is about negating the opponent's threats while accruing card advantage until you can just go "Alright, White Sun's Zenith, swing for 14 a turn." Liliana makes that more difficult.
She is not good in a late game focused deck. She e cells in decks that strive in low resource situations like any of the rock decks. If you like to play discard and lili you are better off having the more effecient beaters in tarmogoyf and scooze.
LotV wants to be played in one of three types of decks
a) a deck that has more powerful individual cards; basically a deck that wants to play in top deck mode (BGx for example)
b) a deck that wants to fill the graveyard
c) a deck that wants both you and ur opponent to be empty handed
Esper control is none of those decks; its a late game, card advantage deck. It wants a full grip of cards so it has answers to everything your opponent may do. There may be an Esper deck that wants LotV, but its going to be much more midrange and proactive than anything you will most likely find in here.
Utter End is just better as a 1 of exspensive or difficult to cast 1 for 1 removal. I even have my doubts on utter end but it is definitely better than Murderous cut.
I beg to differ:
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers: 8
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil
Draw: 7
4 Esper Charm
3 Think Twice
Counters: 6
3 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
Removals: 9
4 Path to Exile
2 Smother
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
3 Thoughtseize
1 Wrath of God
1 Utter End
This can certainly work well and it is definitely Esper Control.
Regarding Utter End, although it is expensive, would we need Celestial Purge anymore? It does cost 2 less but it's also more narrow.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I'm still not sure on how to answer blood moon well other than to put all of your answers in one color and always fetch those kind of basics. I used to run a singleton chromatic lantern and then other artifact/enchantment hate I had in white.
I'm just about finished with a list and will post it soon her to see what you guys think. I really like remand with esper charm btw. and it's great with thoughtseize. I used to play echoing truth to deal with permanents, but I do think utter end is a better choice for permanents.
Remand with Esper Charm is good, as well as any bounce spell like Echoing Truth. However, Liliana of the Veil should not be ruled out. I've presented a list with her that is actually performing very well. I've gone 9-3 so far, winning vs Pod , UW Tron, UWR x2, Affinity, GW Hatebears, The Rock, Junk, and Splinter Twin. I lost to Scapeshift, Affinity, and Mono Red Burn. Even the losses were tight though. Scapeshift won 2-0. I may opt for 2 Torpor Orb.
2 think twice
4 esper charm
4 remand
3 cryptic command
2 logic knot
3 spell snare
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
4 path to exile
1 utter end
2 sphinx's revelation
2 shadow of doubt
1 white sun's zenith
It's essentially the same as the original but cuts a cryptic, a spell snare and 2 think twice for 2 remand, 1 utter end and 1 snapcaster. I am having trouble justifying cutting shadow of doubt since it's so good in many matchups (fetches, scapeshift, pod especially, and even tron when they crack expedition map) and does what this deck apparently wants to do, which is cycle at instant speed. I haven't seen it in many lists, but i think it helps a lot in our weaknesses. My sideboard is really what changes but I guess that's meta dependent.
1 slaughter pact
1 rain of tears
1 fracturing gust
1 utter end
1 wrath of god
1 batterskull
1 deprive
1 chromatic lantern
3 thoughtseize
2 lingering souls
1 vendilion clique
Fracturing gust is a house against affinity and it literally causes them to scoop every time i've played it. I think if you can get to turn 5 against affinity, it's better than disenchant. dismember is there as a 5th path, and slaughter only because it's cool, but i realize it's better in tap out control. utter end cause why not. rain of tears against tron is nice and can be snapcasted. batterskull cause lifelink is great and it's a house in grindy matchups.
Any suggestions are welcome. particuarly in the sideboard. I just don't think a lot of stuff can be taken out of main if you are going for the true untap go durdle control. I was trying to play something like this a while back but I didn't know how to take it to the next level. I was scared of esper charm because of the mana reqs and i was playing more creatures, but I think virtually creatureless is the way to go.
My thoughts are that utter end is a test card and could easily be moved to the side in favor of more counter magic, but I think the extra snapcaster is worth it. I also think I'd rather have 4 remands than 4 think twice, though I could easily board 2 shadow of doubts and have the full playset of both remand and think twice.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I think you may be right about it not being the most effective counter in Modern, but I think for this deck you need to look at it as a very useful cantrip, rather than a counter. I'm just not convinced that it's a dead card in any matchup and really can't ever bring myself to cut even one. The cantrip is really that good, and the counter is just gravy that adds tempo so you can pull out a solid logic knot or cryptic command next turn. And that's before you add the fact that it combos well with esper charm and thoughtseize
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Blood Moon decks will just bolt Meddling Mage.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You're right and Nevermore may be too slow. The best way to handle it is via Enchantment removal, Celestial Purge, or being proactive with hand disruption.
I'd put scry 2 at only a little weaker than a cantrip, so I always prefer Condescend to Remand in Control decks. Besides, Remand is just a cantrip that hoses Snapcaster Mage in the late-game and makes you spend another card to answer what you Remanded. While Remand is a great card, it just doesn't fit into a Control shell. I also really dislike you cutting a Cryptic for it. Remand might be decent against every deck in your opinion (though it really is worse than Condescend against everything except for Storm), but Cryptic Command is great against every deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If anything I would switch out a spell snare for cryptic command before remand for the 2/4 split. I know Guillaume plays 4 spell snare, but it really bothers me how dead 2 copies can be in your hand. That being said, the more I play this deck in particular, the more I see his original build being the best at what it does and for my own flavor would cut 2 spell snare for a remand and a snapcaster.
To be fair, Liliana of the Veil does see a fair amount of play in control decks (Esper and others) in legacy. She is good in situations where both players having fewer resources puts you at an advantage despite your being a control deck, against combo for instance. In Modern I think she is good against Scapeshift and Storm, and belongs in the sideboard of a blue control deck if anywhere at all. In control mirrors she seems ok to bring in, but I'd sooner play Liliana Vess over her in those matchups. Overall, I think there are too few matchups where Liliana of the Veil is strong to justify sideboard slots.
I like Utter End as a mainboard Mystical Teachings target to handle problematic permanents immune to your other maindecked removal like Birthing Pod and Keranos, God of Storms, but isn't dead if none of these permanents show up. Post board I would advise boarding it out for less expensive options like Celestial Purge and Disenchant.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
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