I ask this because my meta is all sorts of wacky right now. Tron decks are running rampant at my FNM, and there's at least 3-5 people playing it with attendance of about 12-16.
I hate to say this, because I love Esper, but I wouldn't play Esper in that meta -- Blue Moon or even UR Delver is where I'd be. Tron is some bs, and I still haven't found a reliable way to beat them. Play Moon with some Molten Rains in the board and you're basically set.
Annihilator, I dont understand... I have a 60-70% win rate against Tron and I find the match up very good since they no longer play Emrakul. Actually, game 1 I have 4 CC, 2 logic knots and 3 remand (spell snare not good here), game 2, I side out the spell snare and get 1-2 negates. That usually does it. But I run 3 ghost quarters and never had problems with them.
Right now I'm on the Crumble to Dust plan, but feel like having the three slots makes it harder to sideboard other things.
My local meta is really diverse. How good is Bribery against Tron? Is it a good enough swap to help save sideboard room?
Manlands have been a problem for me in the past, mostly due to having to Path to Exile early. Would Crumble be a good one-of to sideboard in against decks that run manlands?
Like I described a couple of pages ago, you dont really need more than what we got to beat the new Tron. The match up comes down to: you have the counter for a turn 3-4 Karn or you dont. If you don't have it, scoop and go to next game. If you do have it, just dig into more counters. They play 10 threats at most and we got enough counters to shut them down. Id say its a 60-40% in our favour, after SB it depends if they have the Emrakul or no. But even with emrakul and the inability to recast it every turn, its easy to just cryptic tap it and wrath the next turn. But if you get caught pants down... well...
Bribery is alright against tron, but its not really the card you want to play multiple copies of, and sometimes you won't see it, which can be unfortunate.
That being said, it is fairly good against tron (not always game-ending though)
Crumble is fair against manlands, but its not spectacular given that you have to spend 4 mana at sorcery speed, and having to be playing red to begin with.
Runed halo is probably my favorite answer to manlands, as you never have the "I wrathed and now the halo is awkward" issue.
Personally, i like a singleton bribery in my side, but then again i run 2 peer in my sb as well, so i can find what i need a little easier.
In terms of my mana base, i understand colonnades are pretty much the cornerstone of the land base, but the playset costs about $130, which i dont quite have yet :[
I am thinking of using 1 shambling vent in the MB, as it is still in color, and blocks/survives most creatures in aggro
Re: Tron + Bribery
Yes a 1 of bribery is amazing against tron as well as the nahiri decks. It's more for nahiri because tron has a number of ways to stop their own ulamog with karn or another copy of him, but it's still a great 'threat' for them. When I was on UW I never dropped a single match against a tron deck that didn't have Emmy in their 75 somewhere. It was plain UW, no SoD because F that card, only 2 GQs, no crumble plan, nothing fancy at all outside of 2 MD negates. My best advice in the dark is that you need to emphasize hitting your land drops, always hold a white source in your hand in the form of a proper land or a white fetch and never pop GQ unless you can stop early tron. The mana you have is far more important than delaying a fairly casted karn because over a long game they function more as an LD deck than a ramp deck. There is enough business in the average main deck to answer 100% of their threats and still have more left over just for luls. So much so that I gave up on the crumble plan because shocking myself for an island has mattered while a crumble has never been necessary.
For those of you having trouble maintaining a favorable win rate against them, please post your list and a detailed write up of your game plan against them both pre and post board and mention if it's a specific version that troubles you. By that I mean are you fine against UW gifts tron but get crushed by RG? Is the thought knot and smasher tron a problem or is it just anything with an urza land in the deck a problem? I've literally crushed tron out of existence in my local meta at 2 different stores because after 2 months they have all lost to me 0-2 every week by a mile.
We are anti-gamers If you crush their spirit game 1, just like this, you will often win game 2 out of their hopelessness. The true essence of control, make it painful!
What I like to say to the local players that hate control is (and if they lurk in here they'll uncover my secret identity!) "Magic as a zero sum game. At the start of the match we each own half of the potential fun that can be had. In the next 50 minutes, my goal is to have all of the fun."
Manlands have been a problem for me in the past, mostly due to having to Path to Exile early. Would Crumble be a good one-of to sideboard in against decks that run manlands?
Absolutely not, never run crumble for manlands even against other colonnade based control decks. Never, that's not what decides the winner it's only what brings you to 0. Outside of runed halo, which is awesome btw, you can also run pithing needle or more spot removal like condemn until BA is legal.
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Ya I am just about ready to rebuy and grind games on modo no more u tron bs, deck is not my cup of tea any more and blessed alliance is the new hotness that will rise us to the level of awesome
I've been testing blessed alliance, and I'm actually starting to consider the potential merits of a 3 path/3 blessed alliance split. Path to Exile is NOT free--there is a downside to it, and although we generally don't care about it, it's still there. I'd definitely still have path #4 in the board, but BA literally is the nuts against most of our hard matchups.
The other route I'm considering right now is to re-build the sideboard entirely around having blessed alliance in the 75, which is a bit more invasive (and probably looks more like the original wafo-tapa sideboard), but might be the best route to go.
I didn't get on staff at the Baltimore in a few weeks, so I'll be there playing in one of the classics. I'm unsure of whether I'll play the legacy classic or the modern classic, but on Saturday I will 100% be on site to jam modern games and possibly enter modern side events. If anyone in the thread is going to be there and wants to throw down for the mirror, I'll be happy to oblige
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Been a long time since I've been in this thread...
Would it be feasible to run 4 Ghost Quarters in the main deck? I ask this because my meta is all sorts of wacky right now. Tron decks are running rampant at my FNM, and there's at least 3-5 people playing it with attendance of about 12-16. And it's not just all G/R tron either, there's U Tron, and a G/W tron. The main G/R player has to be worst. Crumble to Dust doesn't even work against him half the time since he has 3 sideboard Warping Wails and his main plan against red decks is to use Karn, 3 Worldbreakers, and 3 Ulamogs to keep people from getting 4 lands. The best way I've found to beat tron is to take them off of tron permanently and completely. I've starting running 4 Ghost Quarters and 3 maindeck Surgical Extractions. Then the G/W tron deck has 4 Pithing Needles in his sideboard for my ghost quarters <_<. It's insanity.
Right now I'm running a U/B control deck with Inquisition of Kozilek, Tasigur, and such. There's a fair bit of control, but I usually do ok with control mirrors (heck, I don't remember the last time I lost a control mirror), living end, ad nauseum, other random combo decks, affinity, merfolk, abzan coco, Kiki Chord, and a bit of burn.
The more I keep tuning my deck, the more I keep wishing I had white for Paths, Verdicts, lifegain (like Kitchen Finks), and Sphinx's Rev. Right now I'm running Disfigures and 2 Plumeveil and a Vedalken Shackles to deal with creatures. Would some sort of Esper deck be good for my situation, and would it even be feasible to run 25-26 land with 4 Ghost Quarters and 3 Surgicals?
On an unrelated note, a buddy of mine gave me a pretty sweet sideboarding strategy, not sure if it would work out in any of your sideboards, but I've been trying it and loving it, so I thought I'd share. Basically you put Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Hangarback Walker, and Engineered Explosives in the side, and a 1-of Trinket Mage to fetch them. So basically you have 2 copies of each of these artifacts while only using 5 sideboard slots instead of using 8 to put 2 each in.
Hey man. Wondering why your also on u/b control for this meta? I run it too. Have you tried bribery out is side for tron fatties? Aslo I've been using perilous vault too. As for going esper. The reason I don't. I don't want to fetch/shock myself to death. Plus bloodmoon
I've been testing blessed alliance, and I'm actually starting to consider the potential merits of a 3 path/3 blessed alliance split. Path to Exile is NOT free--there is a downside to it, and although we generally don't care about it, it's still there. I'd definitely still have path #4 in the board, but BA literally is the nuts against most of our hard matchups.
The other route I'm considering right now is to re-build the sideboard entirely around having blessed alliance in the 75, which is a bit more invasive (and probably looks more like the original wafo-tapa sideboard), but might be the best route to go.
I didn't get on staff at the Baltimore in a few weeks, so I'll be there playing in one of the classics. I'm unsure of whether I'll play the legacy classic or the modern classic, but on Saturday I will 100% be on site to jam modern games and possibly enter modern side events. If anyone in the thread is going to be there and wants to throw down for the mirror, I'll be happy to oblige
Even though baltimore is within driving distance for me, it's still far enough away that I'd need a hotel which I can't afford right now. If only I could spell snare Sadness! Interesting thought on 3/3 removal split, but I'm fairly certain it isn't correct. This is mostly because of mana efficiency and the fact that ~50% of the games we'll be on the draw making the 2 mana cost very sketchy. Combine that with a slow tap land draw or the need to shock it's almost like we're actually going third. I'm of the mind that the "cost" of path giving them a land will matter far less than the "cost" of BA being 2 mana and requiring some cooperation and not hitting utility dorks or exiling. They both have a downside, but one will negatively effect your game far more often than the other as far as I can see. Path is too powerful of a spot removal spell to not max out on.
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Random goofball game to everyone here. Since the blue "escalate command" has yet to be spoiled, who wants to place bets that it will be wildly unplayable? I'm betting the blue escalate card in EDM be a dumpster fire, likely involving mill because "reasons." I'll quote that in my signature for it's entire lifetime in standard if it's cryptic 2.0.
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Yeah. I'm stoked to have this for anti-eldrazi. Still kinda lost on the rulings. Wish it was 3cmc too. As far as cryptic 2.0. Cryptic has four mods to choose 2 of. It's so versatile. Where as escalate Command only hits the stack.
Annihilator, I dont understand... I have a 60-70% win rate against Tron and I find the match up very good since they no longer play Emrakul. Actually, game 1 I have 4 CC, 2 logic knots and 3 remand (spell snare not good here), game 2, I side out the spell snare and get 1-2 negates. That usually does it. But I run 3 ghost quarters and never had problems with them.
Maybe it's just me, but the Tron players at my meta still mainboard Emmy, some play Thought-Knots and/or World Breakers while others play Boil in the sideboard, and they always get Tron in the first 3-4 turns. I never see t2 Stony, and even if I answer their Karn or w/e, Ulamog comes in to double Stone Rain me while demanding a Path or counter too. Even playing 2x Knots, 2x Remand, 2x Cliques, 3x Thoughtseize, and 2x Stony Silence after board, it's never enough. I don't know what I could possibly be doing wrong. Maybe I need to mulligan more aggressively in that matchup? I have no clue, maybe it's just my luck.
Even Clique has never really been that good for me against Tron because they always have multiple threats. I don't even know when to cast Clique, because t3 sets me up to allowing something bad to resolve .
I see a lot of lists play 2 Sphinx Rev. What do you guys think about playing 1 Sphinx and 1 Teaching ? It usually is not necessairy to play 2 sphinx in one game. Normally the first puts us out of reach. Lategame we just need to find wsz which teaching would provide. Teaching would help us as well to deal with a turn 3 lili in finding our Anguished Unmaking. It is as well Discard proved in a way. I imagine something like this :
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx
1 Teaching
It's not the fact that you may end up playing sphinx twice in one game, it's more that it's better to draw into a sphinx, and activate it for 5-6, than teachings at the end of their turn, then trying to cast sphinx for 1-2, or waiting another turn, which you may not have.
I am a fan of teachings, but as a 1-of SB option as wrath number 5 or 6, where you MUST wrath or else you will die. you can also teachings a bribery, effectively becoming the 3rd bribery in SB, since it curves right into it.
So, what do you guys think about the implications of Selfless Spirit in chord/company decks, or do you not think that is an issue?
It can be, but it's also a 2/1, and we can run night of souls' betrayal if we REALLY think that it's going to be a problem.
They have to draw it, get through our counters, and manage to sac it before we path it/condemn it. It's also 2 CMC, so it's easy to snare it
I don't see it being a huge issue, as they probably wouldn't have it in there just to be a sac engine to save their guys.
If it really becomes a problem, can always side in languish
So, what do you guys think about the implications of Selfless Spirit in chord/company decks, or do you not think that is an issue?
It can be, but it's also a 2/1, and we can run night of souls' betrayal if we REALLY think that it's going to be a problem.
They have to draw it, get through our counters, and manage to sac it before we path it/condemn it. It's also 2 CMC, so it's easy to snare it
I don't see it being a huge issue, as they probably wouldn't have it in there just to be a sac engine to save their guys.
If it really becomes a problem, can always side in languish
True, but I am more concerned with them chording for it in response to a wrath, or (though not as likely) scrying it up with viscera seer and hitting it off a company. I know that Dauntless Escort sometimes sees fringe side board play, but this new spirit appears to be a direct, and therefore possibly playable, upgrade to the noble elephant. I know some will just say "lol dispel bro", but I think if we are honest, we don't always have the counter, and that could be a huge blow out for us since verdict is our chief stabilizing card in these match ups
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I hate to say this, because I love Esper, but I wouldn't play Esper in that meta -- Blue Moon or even UR Delver is where I'd be. Tron is some bs, and I still haven't found a reliable way to beat them. Play Moon with some Molten Rains in the board and you're basically set.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
My local meta is really diverse. How good is Bribery against Tron? Is it a good enough swap to help save sideboard room?
Manlands have been a problem for me in the past, mostly due to having to Path to Exile early. Would Crumble be a good one-of to sideboard in against decks that run manlands?
As for manlands, I really suggest Runed Halo.
That being said, it is fairly good against tron (not always game-ending though)
Crumble is fair against manlands, but its not spectacular given that you have to spend 4 mana at sorcery speed, and having to be playing red to begin with.
Runed halo is probably my favorite answer to manlands, as you never have the "I wrathed and now the halo is awkward" issue.
In terms of my mana base, i understand colonnades are pretty much the cornerstone of the land base, but the playset costs about $130, which i dont quite have yet :[
I am thinking of using 1 shambling vent in the MB, as it is still in color, and blocks/survives most creatures in aggro
Yes a 1 of bribery is amazing against tron as well as the nahiri decks. It's more for nahiri because tron has a number of ways to stop their own ulamog with karn or another copy of him, but it's still a great 'threat' for them. When I was on UW I never dropped a single match against a tron deck that didn't have Emmy in their 75 somewhere. It was plain UW, no SoD because F that card, only 2 GQs, no crumble plan, nothing fancy at all outside of 2 MD negates. My best advice in the dark is that you need to emphasize hitting your land drops, always hold a white source in your hand in the form of a proper land or a white fetch and never pop GQ unless you can stop early tron. The mana you have is far more important than delaying a fairly casted karn because over a long game they function more as an LD deck than a ramp deck. There is enough business in the average main deck to answer 100% of their threats and still have more left over just for luls. So much so that I gave up on the crumble plan because shocking myself for an island has mattered while a crumble has never been necessary.
For those of you having trouble maintaining a favorable win rate against them, please post your list and a detailed write up of your game plan against them both pre and post board and mention if it's a specific version that troubles you. By that I mean are you fine against UW gifts tron but get crushed by RG? Is the thought knot and smasher tron a problem or is it just anything with an urza land in the deck a problem? I've literally crushed tron out of existence in my local meta at 2 different stores because after 2 months they have all lost to me 0-2 every week by a mile.
What I like to say to the local players that hate control is (and if they lurk in here they'll uncover my secret identity!) "Magic as a zero sum game. At the start of the match we each own half of the potential fun that can be had. In the next 50 minutes, my goal is to have all of the fun."
Absolutely not, never run crumble for manlands even against other colonnade based control decks. Never, that's not what decides the winner it's only what brings you to 0. Outside of runed halo, which is awesome btw, you can also run pithing needle or more spot removal like condemn until BA is legal.
Ya I am just about ready to rebuy and grind games on modo no more u tron bs, deck is not my cup of tea any more and blessed alliance is the new hotness that will rise us to the level of awesome
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
The other route I'm considering right now is to re-build the sideboard entirely around having blessed alliance in the 75, which is a bit more invasive (and probably looks more like the original wafo-tapa sideboard), but might be the best route to go.
I didn't get on staff at the Baltimore in a few weeks, so I'll be there playing in one of the classics. I'm unsure of whether I'll play the legacy classic or the modern classic, but on Saturday I will 100% be on site to jam modern games and possibly enter modern side events. If anyone in the thread is going to be there and wants to throw down for the mirror, I'll be happy to oblige
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Hey man. Wondering why your also on u/b control for this meta? I run it too. Have you tried bribery out is side for tron fatties? Aslo I've been using perilous vault too. As for going esper. The reason I don't. I don't want to fetch/shock myself to death. Plus bloodmoon
Even though baltimore is within driving distance for me, it's still far enough away that I'd need a hotel which I can't afford right now. If only I could spell snare Sadness! Interesting thought on 3/3 removal split, but I'm fairly certain it isn't correct. This is mostly because of mana efficiency and the fact that ~50% of the games we'll be on the draw making the 2 mana cost very sketchy. Combine that with a slow tap land draw or the need to shock it's almost like we're actually going third. I'm of the mind that the "cost" of path giving them a land will matter far less than the "cost" of BA being 2 mana and requiring some cooperation and not hitting utility dorks or exiling. They both have a downside, but one will negatively effect your game far more often than the other as far as I can see. Path is too powerful of a spot removal spell to not max out on.
Maybe it's just me, but the Tron players at my meta still mainboard Emmy, some play Thought-Knots and/or World Breakers while others play Boil in the sideboard, and they always get Tron in the first 3-4 turns. I never see t2 Stony, and even if I answer their Karn or w/e, Ulamog comes in to double Stone Rain me while demanding a Path or counter too. Even playing 2x Knots, 2x Remand, 2x Cliques, 3x Thoughtseize, and 2x Stony Silence after board, it's never enough. I don't know what I could possibly be doing wrong. Maybe I need to mulligan more aggressively in that matchup? I have no clue, maybe it's just my luck.
Even Clique has never really been that good for me against Tron because they always have multiple threats. I don't even know when to cast Clique, because t3 sets me up to allowing something bad to resolve .
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
For whatever reason, think twice feels bad with teachings because it's so much clunky mana investment, but vision seems fine.
I'm thinking of trying a list based on that "what would wafo do" Chaplin article
It's not the fact that you may end up playing sphinx twice in one game, it's more that it's better to draw into a sphinx, and activate it for 5-6, than teachings at the end of their turn, then trying to cast sphinx for 1-2, or waiting another turn, which you may not have.
I am a fan of teachings, but as a 1-of SB option as wrath number 5 or 6, where you MUST wrath or else you will die. you can also teachings a bribery, effectively becoming the 3rd bribery in SB, since it curves right into it.
It can be, but it's also a 2/1, and we can run night of souls' betrayal if we REALLY think that it's going to be a problem.
They have to draw it, get through our counters, and manage to sac it before we path it/condemn it. It's also 2 CMC, so it's easy to snare it
I don't see it being a huge issue, as they probably wouldn't have it in there just to be a sac engine to save their guys.
If it really becomes a problem, can always side in languish
True, but I am more concerned with them chording for it in response to a wrath, or (though not as likely) scrying it up with viscera seer and hitting it off a company. I know that Dauntless Escort sometimes sees fringe side board play, but this new spirit appears to be a direct, and therefore possibly playable, upgrade to the noble elephant. I know some will just say "lol dispel bro", but I think if we are honest, we don't always have the counter, and that could be a huge blow out for us since verdict is our chief stabilizing card in these match ups