Have you guys tested thing in the ice? It's been working for me. If they kill it before flip. I'm like sweet now my grave titan is free to kill you
Just theory-crafting here, but it seems like it would be best in the SB against creature decks. Give them a chance to side out some removal and then drop a wall/wincon on them when they're not expecting it.
Good point. However I feel like most of the meta right now is creature base decks.
Absolutely, but my point was not to cede our virtual CA by turning on their removal. Wait til they don't have any, then jam wincons in from the board.
This is a draw go thread. It has been agreed that you can talk about any color deck as long as you keep it draw go. We had UE, UB, UWR etc. But we are not into tap out style. Also to the new comers, I suggest you read some of the 300 pages there is in the thread. It's kind of annoying to me (and maybe others) to keep having to answer to the same questions. For exemple, we have 20 pages about AV and why we don't use it. With excellent players that have tested it and combined with numerous other cards. Some people come here and talk about thing in the ice and grave titan... I think that there is enough work on this thread to understand by yourself why it is not appropriated here. I am always the one complaining but to be true, I dont know why we should answer to the same %#+**^\ when you don't even show have enough respect to all the contributors and don't read was has previously been said. So this is not a personnal attack, this is a major wake up call to everyone arriving here. YOU ARE WELCOMED but please do your damn homeworks!
This is a draw go thread. It has been agreed that you can talk about any color deck as long as you keep it draw go. We had UE, UB, UWR etc. But we are not into tap out style. Also to the new comers, I suggest you read some of the 300 pages there is in the thread. It's kind of annoying to me (and maybe others) to keep having to answer to the same questions. For exemple, we have 20 pages about AV and why we don't use it. With excellent players that have tested it and combined with numerous other cards. Some people come here and talk about thing in the ice and grave titan... I think that there is enough work on this thread to understand by yourself why it is not appropriated here. I am always the one complaining but to be true, I dont know why we should answer to the same %#+**^\ when you don't even show have enough respect to all the contributors and don't read was has previously been said. So this is not a personnal attack, this is a major wake up call to everyone arriving here. YOU ARE WELCOMED but please do your damn homeworks!
Tbh, I don't at all mind answering the same questions. Expecting people to read back in the forum's ~300 pages isn't reasonable in my mind. Tho looking at a bunch of midrange decks can get annoying, reiterating on cards is no issue. For example, it's easy to summarize why we don't play AV:
The deck doesn't need more draw spells, since it has ECharm and Think Twice. AV doesn't outclass those that we already have because we don't want to wait for the cards -- TT and Charm give us cards right now at the cost of some mana efficiency, which is worth the upside. Not to mention ECharm's flexibility and TT's application vs. discard.
I will always stand by Esper Charm being the best card in modern that no one plays. @SES - 40% of the meta is definitely an overestimate. According to websites like mtgtop 8, Jund is the most prevalent making up near/about 10% of the competitive meta, while Tron, Zoo, Jeskai, Infect, and Affinity decks make up 5-9% each depending on where you look. That's what tier 1 is right now (maybe throw in Burn for good measure). Nahiri decks altogether? I'd hazard a guess at 15%, no more - Kiki Chord isn't all that common still and those are the only 2 decks that would be playing it.
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Magic player since July 2011.
Modern - Esper Draw-Go (Best finish - 12-3, 45th at GP Charlotte 2015), Jeskai Control, UR Breach Moon
It is perfectly reasonnable to think that someone who wants to learn WILL actually take the time to learn and read. Our deck is hard and tight. You need to learn the fondamentals to pilot it correctly. If you are not willing to go thru the whole processus we have been thru, then whats the point? When I first discovered this thread, I had to read 100 pages to catch up. What is 300 pages of posts? 2 hours at most? As for repeating the same things over and over again, Im glad for you that it doesnt annoy you, but to be honnest, it's just polluting the threads with things we already know. But hey, your opinion is as good as mine
You need to learn the fondamentals to pilot it correctly. If you are not willing to go thru the whole processus we have been thru, then whats the point?
Why have a primer at all if we expect everyone to get to the same level as all of us through trial and error, rather than simply typing up a quick comment to save hours worth of reading/testing? The whole point of this is to share knowledge quickly, so that more people can pick up the deck and play it well enough to assist in future testing and help the deck evolve. I have never, and will never, read through all of this thread's pages unless I decide to do so out of interest -- yet I have been able to posit useful testing and can pilot Esper semi-well.
If you insist on making them find the answer themselves, better advice than "Go sift through everyone's comments for the past year." would be "Test for yourself a list with the card in question and one without, and let us know what you find out to start fresh discussion. Likelihood is you get the same experience that we did. If you didn't, then maybe we have something to consider/reconsider."
I disagree! Reading what has been written allows you to understand the thought process. This is simple academics! People that will invest time in the deck ( reading, playing, testing) are the ones that will contribute. People that come here and say: Hey you should play serum vision, are the ones we never see again but force us to post 2 pages on why we alrdy decided serum sucks. Some people like to show that "they know" and like to teach. But this thread is mainly not about teaching but researching. Do you think undergrads go in labs? No they first do their classes and those 300 pages are your degree, at minimal.
I disagree! Reading what has been written allows you to understand the thought process. This is simple academics! People that will invest time in the deck ( reading, playing, testing) are the ones that will contribute. People that come here and say: Hey you should play serum vision, are the ones we never see again but force us to post 2 pages on why we alrdy decided serum sucks. Some people like to show that "they know" and like to teach. But this thread is mainly not about teaching but researching. Do you think undergrads go in labs? No they first do their classes and those 300 pages are your degree, at minimal.
Actually, undergrads do have Bio and Chem labs, but that's beside the point. Lol
Regardless, I suppose it doesn't really matter. I just don't want people to come here with interest in the deck and get chased away by people saying that they need to read a textbook of an Esper forum before they're welcome to post questions. I want more people to play the deck.
So, I want to have a serious discussion about Anticipate. Now, I know everything about the DNC's and card advantage vs selection, but I think that anticipate may offer some nice consistency to the deck. It digs for extra copies of important cards without actually being copies of them. This means you can play anticipate to try to find that Wrath against aggro, but against AdNaus it is a Runed Halo.
Especially since the deck is starting to become a bunch of universal cards that bomb out in some matchups, I think that Anticipate might help to find those cards. As you know, I often complain that the deck doesn't have enough space for 2 Halos, a Condemn, a 4th Wrath, all 4 Snares, and 2 more 2-mana counters without breaking tge integrity of the core. Anticipate is "functionally" extra copies of every card in the deck. What are peoples' thoughts on this?
I've been meaning to give Anticipate another shot. I must admit this is all rather arbitrary, but I like it less than the 3rd Snap and the 1st Remand, about equally with Moonlight, and more than I like Shadow of Doubt.
On one hand, it's a 4 mana Counterspell. On the other, it seems like the king of fringe cases. Exile all copies of a Storm card (not that that's been an issue for a long time), counter your Ulamog and cast trigger (seems to be the most relevant), wins a counter war that happens with abilities on the stack...? Outside of Tron and Storm, can you think of anywhere where this shines?
So, I want to have a serious discussion about Anticipate. Now, I know everything about the DNC's and card advantage vs selection, but I think that anticipate may offer some nice consistency to the deck. It digs for extra copies of important cards without actually being copies of them. This means you can play anticipate to try to find that Wrath against aggro, but against AdNaus it is a Runed Halo.
Especially since the deck is starting to become a bunch of universal cards that bomb out in some matchups, I think that Anticipate might help to find those cards. As you know, I often complain that the deck doesn't have enough space for 2 Halos, a Condemn, a 4th Wrath, all 4 Snares, and 2 more 2-mana counters without breaking tge integrity of the core. Anticipate is "functionally" extra copies of every card in the deck. What are peoples' thoughts on this?
seems fine and the logic is sound, but in that slot I just love hallowed moonlight to hose nahiri, chord, company, dredge, griselbrand, rites, breach, persist, etc.
Considering going up to 3 Logic Knots with an additional fetch - Basically amalek's mana base -1 Drowned Catacomb +1 Marsh Flats. Has anyone *not* found this setup to be clunky?!?
Considering going up to 3 Logic Knots with an additional fetch - Basically amalek's mana base -1 Drowned Catacomb +1 Marsh Flats. Has anyone *not* found this setup to be clunky?!?
Considering going up to 3 Logic Knots with an additional fetch - Basically amalek's mana base -1 Drowned Catacomb +1 Marsh Flats. Has anyone *not* found this setup to be clunky?!?
Tried it. Wasn't so bad but I didn't like it.
I might try fitting 2 anticipate in by replacing 2 think twice. I definitely am not suggesting getting rid of think twice, I think the engine is still there if we just cut two. Especially with 2 rev, 2 moonlight, 2 remand, 4 cryptic, 2 snap, and 4 charm . I mean Jesus guys. Should be the same with possibly a bit more velocity for "finding the wrath" or whatever
The list I posted a page or two back with only two think twice is proof of that statement.
Its got a lot of cantrips, and the amount of card draw in the deck is the same, but it has more cards that do things.
8 fetchlands and 3 logic knots is a reasonable ratio, you can get away with it. I would rather do that than add a 9th fetch, especially a non-blue fetch (not sure I'd want an off color fetch either though)
A word on anticipate...since most of what we would be digging for is an instant or sorc, wouldnt peer through depths be a better option?
Think of it as, i can dig three but reveal 3 lands, and put a land into my hand, or i can dig 5, find my answer, and still probably draw a land next turn.
On the new 2UU counterspell, I don't see it shining in a counter war at all. at this point, you would have already expended your counters, and may not have enough mana to even cast. It also gets rid of your counters so any remands you played you lose the draw, and any logic knots you played those cards still remain exiled. p.s they can still counter this.
The only way I see this being valuable is in the following:
Storm - Gets rid of all grapeshots etc
Valakut - gets rid of all triggers
Infect - ? I'm pretty sure infect is a triggered ability, so I believe this can counter that, also goes for boggles with totem armor etc.
and VERY (as in I'd rather just counter) fringe value against the following:
Living end - they should have already expended most of their stuff, so you can just counter the living end, also can help if they have a lot of etb effects, and you can manage to wrath on the next turn, though cryptic/negate/logic knot/remand on the living end works just as well.
amulet titan - can get rid of the trigger from kessig wolf run to at lest survive, though again, could just as easily just counter the titan or whatever fetches the titan
nahiri control - can counter the ult of nahiri, but again, can just get rid of the nahiri in the first place
tron - can counter wurmcoil trigger, ulamog/karn trigger, map trigger, though all of these can just be hard countered anyways
Ad nauseam - only if you managed to counter through the 3-4 maindeck pacts to counter the lightnings storm, then they try to win via lab man, and you counter that? still, could just counter the ad nauseam.
Kiki-Chord - maybe? again, why not just counter the actual kiki
Also, not valuable at all against:
Burn - duh
RDW - again, duh
Merfolk/elves/goblins....pretty much any creature based/aggro deck in general
Jund
Mirror
I get it, that it's tempting due to the cast triggers from some eldrazi titans, but honestly if they even got to the point where they can cast it, you are probably in a bad spot. Think about it this way, sure you get rid of one ulamog, but they probably have another, or can ancient stirrings another, or cast ugin/karn, or a wurmcoil, and you are still in a rough spot, so it doesn't really add too much value overall.
I think its kinda hard to fit anticipate in the deck without taking out important stuff. Our flex spots are limited. The other thing is: contrary to most decks (wich are vulnerable to hand disruption) the decision to go quantity over quality makes us good vs jund, abzan, 8racks etc. I dont think we can afford to lose our advantage vs jund wich represents 10% of the meta. You can try it and let us know, and tell us what you cut for it.
A word on anticipate...since most of what we would be digging for is an instant or sorc, wouldnt peer through depths be a better option?
Think of it as, i can dig three but reveal 3 lands, and put a land into my hand, or i can dig 5, find my answer, and still probably draw a land next turn
Very good suggestion. It's an add balance to strike with Telling Time as well. Really depends on how much you need to draw a land...
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Absolutely, but my point was not to cede our virtual CA by turning on their removal. Wait til they don't have any, then jam wincons in from the board.
This is a draw go thread. It has been agreed that you can talk about any color deck as long as you keep it draw go. We had UE, UB, UWR etc. But we are not into tap out style. Also to the new comers, I suggest you read some of the 300 pages there is in the thread. It's kind of annoying to me (and maybe others) to keep having to answer to the same questions. For exemple, we have 20 pages about AV and why we don't use it. With excellent players that have tested it and combined with numerous other cards. Some people come here and talk about thing in the ice and grave titan... I think that there is enough work on this thread to understand by yourself why it is not appropriated here. I am always the one complaining but to be true, I dont know why we should answer to the same %#+**^\ when you don't even show have enough respect to all the contributors and don't read was has previously been said. So this is not a personnal attack, this is a major wake up call to everyone arriving here. YOU ARE WELCOMED but please do your damn homeworks!
Tbh, I don't at all mind answering the same questions. Expecting people to read back in the forum's ~300 pages isn't reasonable in my mind. Tho looking at a bunch of midrange decks can get annoying, reiterating on cards is no issue. For example, it's easy to summarize why we don't play AV:
The deck doesn't need more draw spells, since it has ECharm and Think Twice. AV doesn't outclass those that we already have because we don't want to wait for the cards -- TT and Charm give us cards right now at the cost of some mana efficiency, which is worth the upside. Not to mention ECharm's flexibility and TT's application vs. discard.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Modern - Esper Draw-Go (Best finish - 12-3, 45th at GP Charlotte 2015), Jeskai Control, UR Breach Moon
It is perfectly reasonnable to think that someone who wants to learn WILL actually take the time to learn and read. Our deck is hard and tight. You need to learn the fondamentals to pilot it correctly. If you are not willing to go thru the whole processus we have been thru, then whats the point? When I first discovered this thread, I had to read 100 pages to catch up. What is 300 pages of posts? 2 hours at most? As for repeating the same things over and over again, Im glad for you that it doesnt annoy you, but to be honnest, it's just polluting the threads with things we already know. But hey, your opinion is as good as mine
Why have a primer at all if we expect everyone to get to the same level as all of us through trial and error, rather than simply typing up a quick comment to save hours worth of reading/testing? The whole point of this is to share knowledge quickly, so that more people can pick up the deck and play it well enough to assist in future testing and help the deck evolve. I have never, and will never, read through all of this thread's pages unless I decide to do so out of interest -- yet I have been able to posit useful testing and can pilot Esper semi-well.
If you insist on making them find the answer themselves, better advice than "Go sift through everyone's comments for the past year." would be "Test for yourself a list with the card in question and one without, and let us know what you find out to start fresh discussion. Likelihood is you get the same experience that we did. If you didn't, then maybe we have something to consider/reconsider."
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Actually, undergrads do have Bio and Chem labs, but that's beside the point. Lol
Regardless, I suppose it doesn't really matter. I just don't want people to come here with interest in the deck and get chased away by people saying that they need to read a textbook of an Esper forum before they're welcome to post questions. I want more people to play the deck.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
There are some people here who still like ancesteal vision, as much as I hate playing it, I just keep my mouth shut lol.
Love you guys. Lol
Especially since the deck is starting to become a bunch of universal cards that bomb out in some matchups, I think that Anticipate might help to find those cards. As you know, I often complain that the deck doesn't have enough space for 2 Halos, a Condemn, a 4th Wrath, all 4 Snares, and 2 more 2-mana counters without breaking tge integrity of the core. Anticipate is "functionally" extra copies of every card in the deck. What are peoples' thoughts on this?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Edit: Now, this is interesting: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cme_LFDUMAANW4g.png
On one hand, it's a 4 mana Counterspell. On the other, it seems like the king of fringe cases. Exile all copies of a Storm card (not that that's been an issue for a long time), counter your Ulamog and cast trigger (seems to be the most relevant), wins a counter war that happens with abilities on the stack...? Outside of Tron and Storm, can you think of anywhere where this shines?
Modern - Esper Draw-Go (Best finish - 12-3, 45th at GP Charlotte 2015), Jeskai Control, UR Breach Moon
seems fine and the logic is sound, but in that slot I just love hallowed moonlight to hose nahiri, chord, company, dredge, griselbrand, rites, breach, persist, etc.
Tried it. Wasn't so bad but I didn't like it.
I might try fitting 2 anticipate in by replacing 2 think twice. I definitely am not suggesting getting rid of think twice, I think the engine is still there if we just cut two. Especially with 2 rev, 2 moonlight, 2 remand, 4 cryptic, 2 snap, and 4 charm . I mean Jesus guys. Should be the same with possibly a bit more velocity for "finding the wrath" or whatever
Its got a lot of cantrips, and the amount of card draw in the deck is the same, but it has more cards that do things.
8 fetchlands and 3 logic knots is a reasonable ratio, you can get away with it. I would rather do that than add a 9th fetch, especially a non-blue fetch (not sure I'd want an off color fetch either though)
Think of it as, i can dig three but reveal 3 lands, and put a land into my hand, or i can dig 5, find my answer, and still probably draw a land next turn.
On the new 2UU counterspell, I don't see it shining in a counter war at all. at this point, you would have already expended your counters, and may not have enough mana to even cast. It also gets rid of your counters so any remands you played you lose the draw, and any logic knots you played those cards still remain exiled. p.s they can still counter this.
The only way I see this being valuable is in the following:
Storm - Gets rid of all grapeshots etc
Valakut - gets rid of all triggers
Infect - ? I'm pretty sure infect is a triggered ability, so I believe this can counter that, also goes for boggles with totem armor etc.
and VERY (as in I'd rather just counter) fringe value against the following:
Living end - they should have already expended most of their stuff, so you can just counter the living end, also can help if they have a lot of etb effects, and you can manage to wrath on the next turn, though cryptic/negate/logic knot/remand on the living end works just as well.
amulet titan - can get rid of the trigger from kessig wolf run to at lest survive, though again, could just as easily just counter the titan or whatever fetches the titan
nahiri control - can counter the ult of nahiri, but again, can just get rid of the nahiri in the first place
tron - can counter wurmcoil trigger, ulamog/karn trigger, map trigger, though all of these can just be hard countered anyways
Ad nauseam - only if you managed to counter through the 3-4 maindeck pacts to counter the lightnings storm, then they try to win via lab man, and you counter that? still, could just counter the ad nauseam.
Kiki-Chord - maybe? again, why not just counter the actual kiki
Also, not valuable at all against:
Burn - duh
RDW - again, duh
Merfolk/elves/goblins....pretty much any creature based/aggro deck in general
Jund
Mirror
I get it, that it's tempting due to the cast triggers from some eldrazi titans, but honestly if they even got to the point where they can cast it, you are probably in a bad spot. Think about it this way, sure you get rid of one ulamog, but they probably have another, or can ancient stirrings another, or cast ugin/karn, or a wurmcoil, and you are still in a rough spot, so it doesn't really add too much value overall.
Very good suggestion. It's an add balance to strike with Telling Time as well. Really depends on how much you need to draw a land...