MTG Salvation

I am considering testing 2x Notion Thief in the SB. I'll only stick to it if Visions proves to be a problem. I'm not convinced that Visons is going to be an issue but I still need testing.

Quote from micarc »

I have a "theorical" question for you guys. Imagine that our opponent suspends an ancestral vision. The number of cards in our hand is equal to our opponent's, but we have no clue about what he holds in his hand. Our hand dosen't give us the opportunity to respond to AV on the stack, but we do have one esper charm. Should we mind rot them or just draw 2?
Now apply this scenario in the cases:
a) we have more cards in hand then our opponent,
b) we have less cards in hand then our opponent,
c) we have a remand to fire off on his AV,
d) we have other sources of CA other then the esper charm (say TT).
What is the correct play in pure terms of Card Advantage?

I have found myself rarely mind rotting with esper charm if I know they'll refill. If you anticipate a counter war (a lot of visions decks don't play many) and you don't think you can win it (which should be somewhat rare), it might be worth doing. I think you sort of have to get a feel on what they're holding on to. Especially game 1, many decks have a good number of dead cards against us, meaning esper charm isn't as appealing. If you think you're winning the counter war anyways, I would almost always draw off the charm, especially if you need more lands/won't have to discard to handsize.

It does depend though, if you think its unlikely you'll win a counter war, it could be worth forcing one for the charm (or even fighting over the charm).

Curse of Death's Hold effects feel really great right now, I'm happily running three.

Repeal is also a reasonable card for the 2-of flex slot that has the added value of re-buying Snapcasters late game. Could also help us with "bounce your Liliana, Esper charm you" Shenanigans, as well as bouncing an ensnaring bridge to swing for lethal or bouncing a cranial plating to Spell snare it on the way back down.

Maybe a split of 1/1 with Repeal and something else.

Do any of you have a fairly comprehensive list of the 1-2 drop cantrips we could be playing? I'm already familiar with Shadow of doubt and Hallowed Moonlight

may or may not be Reasonable but there are
Angelsong
Peek
Quicken (A Card I used to run way back when)
Azorius Charm

there really aren't many--that's the problem. Another good 2 mana cantrip could kick this deck into tier two. Like, shadow of doubt power-level but without the narrowness.

cremate is I think the next best one worth considering. Counters snapcaster mage triggers and stops thopter/sword. can also shrink goyf in some circumstances.

I think that combating Thopter/Sword calls for something a little more robust. If they have Talisman of Dominance or Darksteel Citadel, they could sacrifice another artifact in response. Extirpate might be necessary.

Been testing against Lantern control for 3 matches now. I'm 2-1, my board is heavily skewed in order to deal with Lantern while also being flexible against linear creature decks.

I will say I like my one of Austere Command right now. It's slow but still reasonable to bring in vs affinity or boggles, an extra catch all for lantern, in addition to 2 Engineered Explosives, and even good against stuff like Gb/x as an extra sweeper.

cremate doesn't stop the thopter sword combo hard, but we're not talking about hate for the combo, we're talking about incidental cantrips to play.

If you want cantrips anticipate and telling time are completely reasonable card to be running, but I really want to have at least 2 remands before I start looking for more. Honestly I like telling time a whole lot more than anticipate because a lot of times I'm looking for X and wanting to get a land still and it lets me get what I want and set me up for a land later. Repeal is a solid option, but if you're already on remands and have gone all the way to repeal you're probably doing something wrong. There's no way we need 4-8 cantrips in addition to our draw spells.

Esper Gifts w/ Thopter Foundry won the Face to Face Games tournament today. Decklists will be up on manadeprived soon.

That settles it then, shadow of doubt haha

I also love the free wins it gives us against gbx sometimes. Also great vs a variety of other cool stuff.

Although gallows moonlight would also be a great choice "counter target in unburial rites or collected company" draw a card , even though Anticipate does help us dig for wraths and sideboarded cards in post board games

Quote from taylorswiftspear »

Esper Gifts w/ Thopter Foundry won the Face to Face Games tournament today. Decklists will be up on manadeprived soon.

http://manadeprived.com/modern-sunday-showdown-top-8-lists-2/

Quote from taylorswiftspear »

Esper Gifts w/ Thopter Foundry won the Face to Face Games tournament today. Decklists will be up on manadeprived soon.

I just checked out the top 8 lists there and I have no idea how any of them did well at all. The grixis lists look just like the older versions that are soft to anything unfair and the gifts deck I really can't figure out how it can beat the aggressive decks at all. If this is a typical modern meta game I'd be VERY glad to jam esper or UW and just clean house. Control decks playing zero counters? Gifts decks that can't win without resolving gifts? I mean really, wtf was going on in that room that made this ok? So confused...

You also have the option of Merciless Eviction for a 6cmc modal sweeper. This overcomes academy ruins and any other GY recursion. I'm not saying that it is better than Planar Cleansing or Austere Command, just another tool that Esper can have in the wheelhouse.

Just a quick PSA to people talking about exile effects to stop the thopter sword combo. You have a 99% chance that you'll never exile a single piece from the battlefield. Exile all artifacts? D sphere? Anguished Unmaking? Ok I'll sac the foundry in response and then academy ruins it back. Surgical? Academy ruins it back now. You need to fight the graveyard or have permanent answers that hang around to stop it. Stony and RiP are your best options because they're cheap and hurt many other decks significantly. On top of all this, destroy effects like disenchant are unlikely to buy you more than a turn because of, say it with me now, academy ruins. Ghost quarter is just as important now as it was a week or two ago.

Think out every situation that will foil your SB plan and see how common they are. As it is, extirpate is the best answer to the combo because it gets rid of every copy making the other half almost irrelevant and can't be countered or responded to. The down side to it is that it's a reactive card, you can't just throw it out there which leaves it vulnerable to discard effects. One other weakness to extirpate is that it's extremely narrow so it's almost exclusively in your SB for that combo and nothing else. There are so few decks where you should bring in that sort of effect. Meanwhile RiP/Stony are vulnerable to ratchet bomb and disenchant effects later on in the game making them only partially reliable, but they put a stop sign for the entire time they're in play.

Quote from stokpile »

One other weakness to extirpate is that it's extremely narrow so it's almost exclusively in your SB for that combo and nothing else. There are so few decks where you should bring in that sort of effect.

Eh, Extirpate still can randomly hose stuff like a Ghost Quarter'ed Tron piece or Past in Flames. It's still good in all the cases where Surgical Extraction was good.

Quote from The Black Guy »

Quote from stokpile »

One other weakness to extirpate is that it's extremely narrow so it's almost exclusively in your SB for that combo and nothing else. There are so few decks where you should bring in that sort of effect.

Eh, Extirpate still can randomly hose stuff like a Ghost Quarter'ed Tron piece or Past in Flames. It's still good in all the cases where Surgical Extraction was good.

Exactly my point, it's extremely narrow whereas RiP/Stony do a lot more against a lot more decks and have a lot more impact on them. We have many better options and don't need something that's that limited in its application.


EDIT: I would be remiss if I didn't follow this up with one small caveat. Even though I think surgical effects are generally very bad and extremely over used, if you expect a lot of dedicated thopter decks in your meta then I would absolutely pack 3 extirpates in the side. More specifically UB Tezz decks as they only have 2 actual threats in their whole list: Tezz and the combo. Otherwise I'd pick much more general answers for an unknown meta.

Quote from stokpile »

Meanwhile RiP/Stony are vulnerable to ratchet bomb and disenchant effects later on in the game making them only partially reliable, but they put a stop sign for the entire time they're in play.

Unless I am woefully misinterpreting somethong, Stony Silence isn't vulnerable to Ratchet Bomb.

That being said, Stony Silence is growing on me.

Exactly my point, it's extremely narrow whereas RiP/Stony do a lot more against a lot more decks and have a lot more impact on them. We have many better options and don't need something that's that limited in its application.

Surg effects aren't as limited as you might think. Other than Tezerrator, they're great against Chord and Company decks, Grishoalbrand, Enchantment Prison decks, G Devotion, Infect (supposedly, I've never been particularly impressed), etc. Some of those decks are fringe, but people do play them all from time to time.

Edit: I could even see using them against Blue Moon too.