Guys, what the hell. This is meant to be informative and helpful. I see Empyrial Archangel as an option, if you don't like it, don't play it, simple as that. No need to start a fight.
Empyrial Archangel - A cool utility creature that negates damage to the face. It’s particularly good against Scapeshift because they can’t go off if it resolves. Not only does it clock them, but they have no way to remove it aside from dealing 8 to the face, and that’s difficult for them. It should basically only die to Scapeshift, at which point they can’t Scapeshift you twice. The deck involves exact math that they can’t recover from. They can kill her, sure, but they won’t have enough Mountains left in the deck to kill you. The biggest downside to this creature is that you can only resolve it from Gifts combo, and against Scapeshift, they have counters to stop it.
This doesn't actually work, as far as I'm aware? The Valakut Bolts all go on the stack. Your opponent targets them all at you. They then resolve one by one. The first three are redirected to the Archangel, at which point the Archangel is dead so subsequent triggers can't be redirected.
They predicate themselves on exact math. Even if they manage to kill her, chances are the remaining triggers won't kill me.
If they go for the second Valakut with Scapeshift, can't they do 36 damage? That is too much for Empyrial Archangel to save you. I would run Terastodon and Iona against Scapeshift instead.
One of those scenarios is rather unlikely to kill us. We don't fetch and don't punish ourselves, so 7 lands doesn't actually kill us. It's rather unusual for the format, which is why it normally works out for them. Shocks and fetches do a lot to yourself.
The Empyrial Archangel severely messes up things because now 1 Valakut + 10 Mountains is what they need, and they're not going to get 10 Mountains. Scapeshift doesn't really want to put a Valakut in play before the combo, and drawing one early could really mess it up. If you do play the Ghost Quarter and hit the first Valakut, they're dead to Archangel.
Is it silly to try running a second Snapcaster Mage? If I did that I would probably drop Oblivion Ring from the mainboard.
Thoughts?
Yes. The value comes from tutoring it and having additional package options. The Oblivion Ring is important to actually have outs once a threat resolves. Honestly, cards as a 1-of get so much more value than a 2-of. We really only want to run 1 or 4 copies of any card in the deck. The only exception is Map because we need to make room for actual spells.
That is a strange concept for me but I am going to try it out. Why do all builds run 4 Signets? Is it so you have a discard with Thirst? I feel like I draw into them pretty constantly when I do not want them, where as an additional counterspell is almost always welcome.
That is a strange concept for me but I am going to try it out. Why do all builds run 4 Signets? Is it so you have a discard with Thirst? I feel like I draw into them pretty constantly when I do not want them, where as an additional counterspell is almost always welcome.
Late game they can be used as a discard to Thirst if you are good on mana, but early game they fix your colors which we really need to be able to cast things with so many colorless sources, and they also ramp us into a turn 3 Gifts.
One of those scenarios is rather unlikely to kill us. We don't fetch and don't punish ourselves, so 7 lands doesn't actually kill us. It's rather unusual for the format, which is why it normally works out for them. Shocks and fetches do a lot to yourself.
The Empyrial Archangel severely messes up things because now 1 Valakut + 10 Mountains is what they need, and they're not going to get 10 Mountains. Scapeshift doesn't really want to put a Valakut in play before the combo, and drawing one early could really mess it up. If you do play the Ghost Quarter and hit the first Valakut, they're dead to Archangel.
Why can't they use 2 Valakut+6 Mountains to kill you win Archangel out?
One of those scenarios is rather unlikely to kill us. We don't fetch and don't punish ourselves, so 7 lands doesn't actually kill us. It's rather unusual for the format, which is why it normally works out for them. Shocks and fetches do a lot to yourself.
The Empyrial Archangel severely messes up things because now 1 Valakut + 10 Mountains is what they need, and they're not going to get 10 Mountains. Scapeshift doesn't really want to put a Valakut in play before the combo, and drawing one early could really mess it up. If you do play the Ghost Quarter and hit the first Valakut, they're dead to Archangel.
Why can't they use 2 Valakut+6 Mountains to kill you win Archangel out?
They can I just meant like the deck doesn't really do well when it draws a Valakut first. They're forced to expose it for some time. It's basically not that ideal for them. With Archangel out they're forced into 2 Valakut + 6 Mountains, and it can actually be a little bit difficult if we give them some trouble.
If you draw a Valakut, you'd generally rather not play it. You expose it to cards like Ghost Quarter. At the same time, they would need to play it to get the right amount of damage. For a deck playing Map and maybe Ghost Quarter, it could be a real problem for them.
Cards of note:
-Kozilek
-1 Batterskull
-Watery Grave, Chromatic Lantern, Engineered Explosives (Lantern also seems like tech against Blood Moon)
I love the idea of Batterskull/Wurmcoil here. Without Academy ruins, Wurmcoil isnt as great. Being able to bounce batterskull is big. I'd give it a shot.
I agree with Kozilek though. No idea what the idea was there.
Lantern seems good against blood moon. However I run 3 basics and signets in my build. Not as afraid of it as some UW Tron decks.
I also went 3-1 in a late-April daily with a less than ideal list. No idea why it didn't make it on mtggoldfish. Grrrrr.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG URThe Locust godUR
Modern UWMiraclesUW
Legacy BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG UBRGrixis ControlUBR RGLandsRG
Kozilek seems unnecessary in that list. Emrakul is bomb enough. I think I'd rather have a single Snapcaster over Kozilek, for some added flexibility. As if UW Tron isn't flexible enough.
Watery Grave and Lantern seem decent for when you're stuck hardcasting Rites as well. Would also be nice to play an Explosives off of Lantern. All that Sunburst.
Chromatic Lantern seems like tech IF you're expecting Blood Moons and are scared of them. 4 Signets and basics shouldn't make it that big of a deal. It's a reasonable decision though. There's no guarantee it's good, that's not something you can decide without extensive testing, but it's clearly not horrible.
Kozilek is awful, it always will be. Ulamog would be a much better idea in that slot if that's what you wanted.
I feel like Wurmcoil is worse than Batterskull if you're not playing Eye. Batterskull is just a much better card, it has evasion for artifact hate they bring in and doesn't die to Path. It's obviously not strictly better, but I think on average the Batterskull does more work.
I don't think Tolaria West is good if you run no utility lands. The value comes partially out of Explosives and partially out of value lands. Without Ruins or Eye, it's either 1UU find a Tron piece, 1UU find Explosives, or a tapped blue source.
Double Sphinx's is bad. You can't afford to have that many expensive cards, especially if you run a second Eldrazi. You're reaching a point of too many cards that do nothing early. I count 7, which seems quite high.
I also really don't like Stony Silence. It's good against us, and I feel like we have other options against Affinity (like Hurkyl's Recall, Kataki, War's Wage, or Suppression Field if you want the same effect).
I actually prefer the double Batterskull over a 1/1 split between it and Wurmcoil. Both cards beat Jund, and it has far more applications against other random ilk (8-Rack, coming down a turn sooner against Burn, etc.).
I don't think the deck needs more answers to Affinity. 3 board wipes, a pile of Path to Exile, some O-Ring effects, and Elesh Norn should be sufficient.
I also don't think Blood Moon is as good as expected against us. It turns off the Celestial Colonnade win condition and the Tron lands, but we don't exactly need either to win. Further, we usually have a better game plan against the decks that run Blood Moon (Storm and Twin, primarily).
I agree Batterskull is typically better than Wurmcoil, but as long as I am playing Emrakul, I will likely play Wurmcoil over Batterskull. Being able to tutor for it is huge. Also, being able to Gifts > Rites for it if you really need it isn't bad. Both are fairly resilient, with Wurmcoil being worse to Path, but better against other removal and artifact hate.
I agree the deck doesn't need more answers for Affinity. We just need to draw the ones we have in a timely manner and mull aggressively.
Blood Moon can certainly hurt, we need colored mana to do anything and our only real out is our Signets. Decks running red probably have artifact hate as well so keeping a Signet around through a Blood Moon doesn't always help. It's definitely possible to play around Blood Moon though.
Well my friend is building RG Infect...so...that'll be fun to test against...>_>
From my experience, targeted removal can wreck infect. Mull to a path or a bounce spell and GG.
Edit - To build on what others are saying about boarding: I dont think sidebaords are universal. However, I do put in 1 Hurkyl's Recall and a Disenchant. The Disenchant has some flexibility, but the Recall is strictly for Affinity. I like being able to drop the Remands (which are nearly useless).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG URThe Locust godUR
Modern UWMiraclesUW
Legacy BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG UBRGrixis ControlUBR RGLandsRG
Hmmm... I just saw a list running Noxious Revival as a 1-of. That seems fun!
It's primarily just to get more value out of Gifts. You shift the deck in a weird way, and having to pay life for it and wait a turn can actually be a problem sometimes. Not to mention that it's possible for the card to be somewhat dead.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Decks:
Standard:
Nope
Modern:
Mono-Green Nykthos
Gifts Tron
Melira Pod
Legacy:
Maverick (retired)
If they go for the second Valakut with Scapeshift, can't they do 36 damage? That is too much for Empyrial Archangel to save you. I would run Terastodon and Iona against Scapeshift instead.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Scapeshift typically plays 2 Valakut and 10 Mountains. They typically like to fetch:
1 Valakut + 6 Mountains = 18 damage OR
1 Valakut + 7 Mountains = 21 damage OR
2 Valakut + 6 Mountains = 36 damage
One of those scenarios is rather unlikely to kill us. We don't fetch and don't punish ourselves, so 7 lands doesn't actually kill us. It's rather unusual for the format, which is why it normally works out for them. Shocks and fetches do a lot to yourself.
The Empyrial Archangel severely messes up things because now 1 Valakut + 10 Mountains is what they need, and they're not going to get 10 Mountains. Scapeshift doesn't really want to put a Valakut in play before the combo, and drawing one early could really mess it up. If you do play the Ghost Quarter and hit the first Valakut, they're dead to Archangel.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Thoughts?
Yes. The value comes from tutoring it and having additional package options. The Oblivion Ring is important to actually have outs once a threat resolves. Honestly, cards as a 1-of get so much more value than a 2-of. We really only want to run 1 or 4 copies of any card in the deck. The only exception is Map because we need to make room for actual spells.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
That is a strange concept for me but I am going to try it out. Why do all builds run 4 Signets? Is it so you have a discard with Thirst? I feel like I draw into them pretty constantly when I do not want them, where as an additional counterspell is almost always welcome.
Why can't they use 2 Valakut+6 Mountains to kill you win Archangel out?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They can I just meant like the deck doesn't really do well when it draws a Valakut first. They're forced to expose it for some time. It's basically not that ideal for them. With Archangel out they're forced into 2 Valakut + 6 Mountains, and it can actually be a little bit difficult if we give them some trouble.
If you draw a Valakut, you'd generally rather not play it. You expose it to cards like Ghost Quarter. At the same time, they would need to play it to get the right amount of damage. For a deck playing Map and maybe Ghost Quarter, it could be a real problem for them.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Watery Grave
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Day of Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Expedition Map
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Repeal
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Unburial Rites
1 Wrath of God
2 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Negate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rule of Law
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Torpor Orb
Cards of note:
-Kozilek
-1 Batterskull
-Watery Grave, Chromatic Lantern, Engineered Explosives (Lantern also seems like tech against Blood Moon)
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I love the idea of Batterskull/Wurmcoil here. Without Academy ruins, Wurmcoil isnt as great. Being able to bounce batterskull is big. I'd give it a shot.
I agree with Kozilek though. No idea what the idea was there.
Lantern seems good against blood moon. However I run 3 basics and signets in my build. Not as afraid of it as some UW Tron decks.
I also went 3-1 in a late-April daily with a less than ideal list. No idea why it didn't make it on mtggoldfish. Grrrrr.
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
Watery Grave and Lantern seem decent for when you're stuck hardcasting Rites as well. Would also be nice to play an Explosives off of Lantern. All that Sunburst.
Kozilek is awful, it always will be. Ulamog would be a much better idea in that slot if that's what you wanted.
I feel like Wurmcoil is worse than Batterskull if you're not playing Eye. Batterskull is just a much better card, it has evasion for artifact hate they bring in and doesn't die to Path. It's obviously not strictly better, but I think on average the Batterskull does more work.
I don't think Tolaria West is good if you run no utility lands. The value comes partially out of Explosives and partially out of value lands. Without Ruins or Eye, it's either 1UU find a Tron piece, 1UU find Explosives, or a tapped blue source.
Double Sphinx's is bad. You can't afford to have that many expensive cards, especially if you run a second Eldrazi. You're reaching a point of too many cards that do nothing early. I count 7, which seems quite high.
I also really don't like Stony Silence. It's good against us, and I feel like we have other options against Affinity (like Hurkyl's Recall, Kataki, War's Wage, or Suppression Field if you want the same effect).
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I don't think the deck needs more answers to Affinity. 3 board wipes, a pile of Path to Exile, some O-Ring effects, and Elesh Norn should be sufficient.
I also don't think Blood Moon is as good as expected against us. It turns off the Celestial Colonnade win condition and the Tron lands, but we don't exactly need either to win. Further, we usually have a better game plan against the decks that run Blood Moon (Storm and Twin, primarily).
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I agree the deck doesn't need more answers for Affinity. We just need to draw the ones we have in a timely manner and mull aggressively.
Blood Moon can certainly hurt, we need colored mana to do anything and our only real out is our Signets. Decks running red probably have artifact hate as well so keeping a Signet around through a Blood Moon doesn't always help. It's definitely possible to play around Blood Moon though.
From my experience, targeted removal can wreck infect. Mull to a path or a bounce spell and GG.
Edit - To build on what others are saying about boarding: I dont think sidebaords are universal. However, I do put in 1 Hurkyl's Recall and a Disenchant. The Disenchant has some flexibility, but the Recall is strictly for Affinity. I like being able to drop the Remands (which are nearly useless).
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
It's primarily just to get more value out of Gifts. You shift the deck in a weird way, and having to pay life for it and wait a turn can actually be a problem sometimes. Not to mention that it's possible for the card to be somewhat dead.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer