@Valanarch. RUG delver most definitely ran cryptics alongside tempo cards back in the day. I got top 8 at state championships last year with that sort of RUG delver list (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1209963).
In other news, I've been testing Skred in my Blue Moon deck (calling it Snow Control) and it's been fantastic. Hits basically everything in the format and you know what else snow lands open us up too? Scrying Sheets. Can't express how much I love this card mid to late game. I'll post a deck list at some point today for you all.
@Valanarch. RUG delver most definitely ran cryptics alongside tempo cards back in the day. I got top 8 at state championships last year with that sort of RUG delver list (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1209963).
Congratulations, you corrected me on something that was posted days ago, that I had already been corrected on twice, and that I already admitted I was wrong on twice.
In other news, I've been testing Skred in my Blue Moon deck (calling it Snow Control) and it's been fantastic. Hits basically everything in the format and you know what else snow lands open us up too? Scrying Sheets. Can't express how much I love this card mid to late game. I'll post a deck list at some point today for you all.
I can't see how Scrying Sheets would be better than Desolate Lighthouse and Skred seems like it will be worse than Roast when Dragons of Tarkir comes out.
On another note, what do you guys think of Shorecrash Elemental after Dragons of Tarkir comes out? It seems like it could be a strong finisher for this deck at a low cost.
Skred is an instant and it hits everything. Scrying Sheets costs one less to activate and can be setup with serum visions. I will admit that desolate lighthouse is good, but I've had really good luck/results with Scrying Sheets. Desolate lighthouse also costs a Red and a Blue. Scrying Sheets can be used with either.
Skred is an instant and it hits everything. Scrying Sheets costs one less to activate and can be setup with serum visions. I will admit that desolate lighthouse is good, but I've had really good luck/results with Scrying Sheets. Desolate lighthouse also costs a Red and a Blue. Scrying Sheets can be used with either.
Skred doesn't hit everything. It can't kill a 4/5 Tarmogoyf until turn 5 at best, and since you will probably play at least 1 Steam Vents in that time it will probably be until turn 6. Same goes for Tasigur and Siege Rhino.It also gets worse if you play a turn 3 Blood Moon with 2-3 snow lands and then have to play some fetchlands afterwards which don't have snow types.
As for Scrying Sheets, it only draws you a card a third of the time so it isn't great IMO.
I don't think you know what evasion means. Evasion is abilities like Flying, Unblockable, Shadow, etc. that makes a creature harder to block.
Being roadblocked by an enemy Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino sucks. Even if you're playing Master of Waves, I think Vendilion Clique is where you want to be, especially since there are so few answers to Master of Waves as is.
Wait, but doesn't Tarmogoyf have evasion from Lightning Bolt? And Keranos have evasion from IoK?
RUG Moon won a PPTQ I got 3rd in yesterday. Goyfs are very strong in this deck. I don't think the Sarkhan walker is any good here (anywhere) BTW; you can't Negate a Keranos.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Wait, but doesn't Tarmogoyf have evasion from Lightning Bolt? And Keranos have evasion from IoK?
RUG Moon won a PPTQ I got 3rd in yesterday. Goyfs are very strong in this deck. I don't think the Sarkhan walker is any good here (anywhere) BTW; you can't Negate a Keranos.
I talked to Hoogland a couple days ago and he says that he is considering Sarkhan instead of Keranos or Batterskull in RUG Moon.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I tried Sarkhan Unbroken in Hoogland RUG Moon. Unlike Goyf, who I can plausibly cast before Turn 3 Moon, casting a Turn 3-4 Moon locks me out of Sarkhan mana way too often. This makes me wonder how people can play Huntmaster of the Fells in RUG Moon decks.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The way I tend to look at RUG Moon versus Blue Moon, is like this:
Blue Moon you aren't playing very man wincons, Snapcaster/Clique for beats or Blood Moon/Shackles for a lock. This means you are kind of obligated to play haymakers liker Batterskull or Keranos to actually win the game.
Temur Moon gives you access to Tarmogoyfs which means you don't necessarily need big 5drops to take over the game.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
You know that your argument about Tarmogoyf being decayed also applies for Blood Moon, right? They just float the mana and that's that. Plus, I don't think you can say 'It is not right to play this card because this other card exists'. It is just not a reasonable argument.
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Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
I'd say definitely. I've been playing RUG strategies and relying on Blood Moon as a plan (although generally from the SB) since 2012 and I generally wait until hitting Green before casting Blood Moon. First of all, I would fetch a Stomping Ground with that Tarn and certainly not a Pool, so if you draw Misty you can crack that for Forest and cast the Moon. Otherwise, you have to have another nonbasic/Mountain to cast Blood Moon, so if you do get a Misty you have to cut yourself off Green to cast it (by fetching something that makes you Red; not to mention you're shocking yourself now). This is another reason I don't advocate Sulfur Falls in the RUG Moon deck at all.
That said, it's sometimes correct to lock yourself out of Green if you know it's the winning play (say your opponent has 3 nonbasic lands and no board presence in Junk and you have a Batterskull in hand or a Goyf on the field). In these cases, who cares about that Sarkhan in your hand? The game is yours.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
You know that your argument about Tarmogoyf being decayed also applies for Blood Moon, right? They just float the mana and that's that. Plus, I don't think you can say 'It is not right to play this card because this other card exists'. It is just not a reasonable argument.
My talk about my Turn 2 Goyf getting Decayed was more of an explanation for how Junk somehow didn't Decay Moon. Goyf IS pretty good Decay bait, which is part of how it makes Temur Moon good.
Over Skull makes more sense than over Keranos but I'd personally rather have Skull. With Sarkhan you gain some minimal amount of resilience in exchange for an ability to stabilize against aggro decks with a strong board presence. Did you ask him why? I'd be interested to hear his thought process on this since he obviously has more experience with the deck than any of us.
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
That makes sense. And if you're casting Moon and locking yourself out of Green and Blue you're playing the deck wrong.
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
I'd say definitely. I've been playing RUG strategies and relying on Blood Moon as a plan (although generally from the SB) since 2012 and I generally wait until hitting Green before casting Blood Moon. First of all, I would fetch a Stomping Ground with that Tarn and certainly not a Pool, so if you draw Misty you can crack that for Forest and cast the Moon. Otherwise, you have to have another nonbasic/Mountain to cast Blood Moon, so if you do get a Misty you have to cut yourself off Green to cast it (by fetching something that makes you Red; not to mention you're shocking yourself now). This is another reason I don't advocate Sulfur Falls in the RUG Moon deck at all.
That said, it's sometimes correct to lock yourself out of Green if you know it's the winning play (say your opponent has 3 nonbasic lands and no board presence in Junk and you have a Batterskull in hand or a Goyf on the field). In these cases, who cares about that Sarkhan in your hand? The game is yours.
I was partially expecting an answer like yours--maybe I'm jumping to Moon-lock people too fast.
My talk about my Turn 2 Goyf getting Decayed was more of an explanation for how Junk somehow didn't Decay Moon. Goyf IS pretty good Decay bait, which is part of how it makes Temur Moon good.
Sorry, misread. Anyway, I don't think you wanna bait decay, you should totally play around it, but most likely just try to get the most value out of a goyf, if they tap out, you can just punish them. If you are afraid of decay you can always side Gigadrowse to lock em out of a color EoT (green or black), then untap and moon them for the win.
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In other news, I've been testing Skred in my Blue Moon deck (calling it Snow Control) and it's been fantastic. Hits basically everything in the format and you know what else snow lands open us up too? Scrying Sheets. Can't express how much I love this card mid to late game. I'll post a deck list at some point today for you all.
Congratulations, you corrected me on something that was posted days ago, that I had already been corrected on twice, and that I already admitted I was wrong on twice.
I can't see how Scrying Sheets would be better than Desolate Lighthouse and Skred seems like it will be worse than Roast when Dragons of Tarkir comes out.
On another note, what do you guys think of Shorecrash Elemental after Dragons of Tarkir comes out? It seems like it could be a strong finisher for this deck at a low cost.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Skred doesn't hit everything. It can't kill a 4/5 Tarmogoyf until turn 5 at best, and since you will probably play at least 1 Steam Vents in that time it will probably be until turn 6. Same goes for Tasigur and Siege Rhino.It also gets worse if you play a turn 3 Blood Moon with 2-3 snow lands and then have to play some fetchlands afterwards which don't have snow types.
As for Scrying Sheets, it only draws you a card a third of the time so it isn't great IMO.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Serum Visions
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Harvest Pyre
1 Repeal
3 Blood Moon
2 Spreading Seas
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
3 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
9 Island
1 Mountain
2 Dispel
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Flashfreeze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
There's a lot of diversity there. The top tier deck least represented there (MAYBE one player, and he's not always there) is Affinity.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Edit: I like the idea behind skred, as maybe a one or two of, but scrying sheets is pretty terrible in this deck.
Being roadblocked by an enemy Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino sucks. Even if you're playing Master of Waves, I think Vendilion Clique is where you want to be, especially since there are so few answers to Master of Waves as is.
RUG Moon won a PPTQ I got 3rd in yesterday. Goyfs are very strong in this deck. I don't think the Sarkhan walker is any good here (anywhere) BTW; you can't Negate a Keranos.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I talked to Hoogland a couple days ago and he says that he is considering Sarkhan instead of Keranos or Batterskull in RUG Moon.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
He said that it fills a similar role to Keranos but can impact the board directly while against decks like Junk Keranos can only draw cards and bolt players.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Blue Moon you aren't playing very man wincons, Snapcaster/Clique for beats or Blood Moon/Shackles for a lock. This means you are kind of obligated to play haymakers liker Batterskull or Keranos to actually win the game.
Temur Moon gives you access to Tarmogoyfs which means you don't necessarily need big 5drops to take over the game.
Current Version
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Blood Moon
2 Spreading Seas
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Mountain
8 Island
Against decks such as Junk Midrange, is it wrong to go Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 crack Scalding Tarn to get Breeding Pool for Goyf (it gets Decayed), Turn 3-4 Moon (play Sulfur Falls and crack a Tarn for a basic Island in the meantime), Turn 5 Island into wish-I-could-play-Sarkhan Unbroken-but-I-can't? I got this scenario way too often when I tested Sarkhan against Junk.
You know that your argument about Tarmogoyf being decayed also applies for Blood Moon, right? They just float the mana and that's that. Plus, I don't think you can say 'It is not right to play this card because this other card exists'. It is just not a reasonable argument.
That said, it's sometimes correct to lock yourself out of Green if you know it's the winning play (say your opponent has 3 nonbasic lands and no board presence in Junk and you have a Batterskull in hand or a Goyf on the field). In these cases, who cares about that Sarkhan in your hand? The game is yours.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
My talk about my Turn 2 Goyf getting Decayed was more of an explanation for how Junk somehow didn't Decay Moon. Goyf IS pretty good Decay bait, which is part of how it makes Temur Moon good.
I was partially expecting an answer like yours--maybe I'm jumping to Moon-lock people too fast.
Sorry, misread. Anyway, I don't think you wanna bait decay, you should totally play around it, but most likely just try to get the most value out of a goyf, if they tap out, you can just punish them. If you are afraid of decay you can always side Gigadrowse to lock em out of a color EoT (green or black), then untap and moon them for the win.