MTG Salvation

Just a suggestion that I took from the UWR Control Thread, disdainful Stroke is more niche than Counterflux, and Counterflux has some different applications that make it quite good right now.

I'm a big fan of a Gigadrowse in the sideboard, it's so good against Control and can come in in a pinch instead of some bad card as a pseudo Time Walk against Tron or the like.

UR Pyromancer players, do you run Jace or not? It´s obviously powerful, but it sure doesn´t fit the game plan very well, does it?

What is a good number of Blood Moon(s) to run main deck? Are 2 just enough? It seems like it's the common number I see.

Quote from OceanTidal92 »

What is a good number of Blood Moon(s) to run main deck? Are 2 just enough? It seems like it's the common number I see.

I've been playing a lot with main decking or not and it seems like sideboarding 3 seems to be the sweet spot to get them consistently. I stopped running them main deck because it's a literal dead card against a lot of pretty popular decks and/or decks with aether vial. Game 1 I like to focus on just landing the combo and nothing else because the deck is really consistent in getting the combo in your hand by turns 5 6 and 7. Then sideboarding the moon means that often times you can get into counter wars or keep remand bouncing spells to land the moon to seal games.

This is mostly MTGO though so there's a LOT of really low to the ground decks that make blood moon a pretty terrible card to have main deck. 8 whack, 5c humans, D&T, Merfolk all don't care much about blood moon so I really hate when it's a dead card in hand and the opponent is advancing their board.

Quote from Shodai »

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/please-jace-dont-let-me-down/

Article about Blue Moon by Gabriel Nassif

Good find, thanks for posting!

Seeing a list that low on win conditions gives me ulcers, but if Nassif is having good results, who am I to rain on the parade? I do agree with him about TiTi and implicitly about Young Pyro, but for now I'm liking my results replacing them with the Breach package instead of... nothing.

I actually like the zero MD Logic Knot. I've been clamoring on the Grixis Control thread for years about how good it is, but part of the reason to run two-color decks is the painless mana base, so you end up either having too few fetches to power out repeated Knots and/or have to warp your mana base to accommodate it. I haven't tried out Pierce outside Bloo, but it may be worth a look.

Remand does feel weird in a deck with so little tempo/inevitability and only on spells-matter card. Anyone make a case for it?

There's some Disrupting Shoal thoughts couple pages ago.

Shoal just seems like a trap. Card disadvantage and its very situational. I've been testing this list out and really liking it. No problems flipping TiTI. Depending on the deck it can come down turn 2, or wait till its safe to play with projection (why I'm running 2x Spell Snare, Dispel, and Pierce main). I didn't like 3 Jace's. I was seeing him too often and I rarely want to play him on turn 4. Usually wait until I've stabilized or have TiTI in place for protection to play Jace. Then either he or TiTI runs away with the game. Entrancing Melody is really good. Triggers TiTI, and can be flashed back.

Cliques, Roasts, and Ancestral Vision are cards on the list to test.

You could easily drop a couple lands and add some combination of Roast or Melody. Granted I haven't played a ton of games with the deck, but with 8 can trips that filter and 17 cards that read "draw a card", I haven't felt like 20 lands is too few. You cycle through the deck pretty quick to find lands.

My biggest issue with something like Shackles is that a lot of decks you want both Blood Moon and Shackles, and you're giving them more targets for their hate cards for Blood Moon. Of course, this could be a good thing in some cases.

Blue Moon put up a good showing at GP Phoenix last weekend: 2 Breach, 1 Madcap, and 1 with just Clique, Snaps, and P&K Nalaar to close out games (plus the 3 Jaces). Thoughts?

I tried to backtrack a little bit, but couldn't find some information I was after. What is the general build of Blue moon. I've seen some TiTi build, young pyromancer online. And during the GP there was many on the breach version, even a mad cap version. Whats the general thoughts behind these decks? It looks like breach is the most powerful one, being able to steal games out of nowhere. However, I'm personally a fan of YP and TiTi(tho ofc they dont go in the same deck)

Is TiTi playing like a control deck perhaps, and breach/madcap is a tempo combo deck?

The shell of the deck is basically:

7-8 Fetches
~2 Steam Vents
~2 Sulfur Falls
1-2 Desolate Lighthouse
~7 Islands
1 Mountain

4 Opt
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Remand
2-3 Blood Moon
2-3 Cryptic Command
2-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

That makes for 22 Lands and 26-29 spells, allowing for 9-12 flex slots.

In order to fill the open slots you need to pick your win condition:
1. Classic UR Moon -- choose from Young Pyromancer, TiTi, Snapcaster/Bolt damage, Jace tick up, Clique, even go old school with Shackles etc. Pros: No combo to assemble, just generate value from your spells. Cons: Since you don't have an I-Win button you can get worse against some matchups where the combo is very good (e.g Green Tron: Blood Moon + Breach combo makes the matchup very good, whereas durdling with Young Pyro or TitI beats they can just get enough mountains in play to start hard casting difficult to answer threats)
2. Breach combo -- requires 7-8 slots (4 Breach, 3-4 Emrakul). Pros: can be played at instant speed, even though it's a two card combo you only have to resolve one actual spell, resilient to IoK. Cons: Still a 2 card combo which can be tougher to assemble against hand disruption, sometimes it doesn't even win you the game against decks like Humans etc.
3. Kiki combo -- I'm not even sure how many slots it takes as I consider it inferior to Breach (and it seems to have died out a bit, probably due to that reason). I think 2 Kiki, 3-4 accompanying dorks (a split between Deceiver and Pestermite) Pros: I guess you can technically use Kiki to copy Snapcaster for value, or beat down with the dorks. Cons: Relies on resolving two extremely fragile spells, cannot be fully played at instant speed like Breach.
4. Madcap combo -- Requires 5 slots (3 Madcap 2 Emperion). Pros: Only 5 slots, single card combo means you don't have to piece together A+B. Cons: Sorcery speed, very bad vs Jund and several other archetypes, doesn't immediately win you the game.

I'm sure I am missing some more intricate pros & cons but that's just a quick summary off the top of my head.

Once you choose your win condition you can fill in any remaining flex slots with spells like Electrolyze, Spell Snare, Izzet Charm, Harvest Pyre, Roast, additional copies of Jace/Command etc.

Yes, the Thing in the Ice version will play a bit more controlling than a combo version, I normally call Breach version a "Combo Control" (same concept as Scapeshift which I was a big fan of back in the Birthing Pod meta days).


This is my current list.

I'm experimenting with Young Pyromancers in the sideboard vs Jund and other grindy matchups, with the thought of swapping out the combo entirely in that matchup, as it can be difficult to assemble through their disruption and I can see them sideboarding out removal. I also added a fourth copy of Emrakul for the same reason, to make the deck a little bit more redundant against disruption. Has anyone tested any sideboard "transformations" to a more classic UR Moon style? I've been testing the list but haven't played vs Jund yet (though I have actually brought in anywhere from 2-4 Pyro's in some control matchups where I had extra stuff to bring out, just to be a bit more proactive, which has been successful).

For the sideboard I am actually thinking 2 EE 2 AotG. And I am a huge fan of Gigadrowse, when you draw it beating control is trivial. I'd almost want a second but it's bad any time other than when you're about to win.

Thanks for excellent write up! I do have some follow up questions if you don't mind. Whats the thought behind having only 2 blood moon and 2 cryptic? I feel for both moon and cryptic 3 "should" be right since we want to see them each game. Is the addition of opt making us able to cut down one and find it eventually? Is it more of a meta thing?

EDIT: Why the disapperance of spreading seas?

Sure thing. I'm just tinkering at the moment, my previous list had 3 of each of those (and I've been fluctuating between 0-2 Jace). But we don't actually want to see them every game depending on the matchup. Like in the mirror, or vs Burn etc Blood Moon is very bad. And drawing 2 of them can be super awkward, I was often sideboarding 1 out on the draw anyway. Cryptic Command can also sometimes get awkward mana cost wise, so I definitely sideboard a few out occasionally. I'm a really big fan of Izzet Charm because it's super versatile, from killing Bob or countering Liliana to drawing you toward the combo. 2 could be too many though. And I like 2 Electrolyze because of the versatility and it at least cantrips. So I'm just testing this list for now. I'm also thinking of cutting 1 Lighthouse as it can be an awkward draw at times when you need like another blue source or a basic Island to have under Blood Moon, I may swap that for either a Steam Vents or an Island.

I'm thinking instead of 4x Emrakul, 3x and 1x Wurmcoil. A bit spicy, the Wurmcoil is serviceable off a Breach and can be hardcast. Might be too cute though.

So what’s the verdict on the madcap sideboard package? I’m also considering the shackles in the sideboard. Is it still a good card? What do you bring it in against?

Here is a pretty good article about the archetype:

https://www.massdrop.com/talk/3551/blue-moon-at-gp-phoenix?utm_source=mtg&utm_medium=influencer&utm_campaign=talkposts&utm_term=15572

It doesn't seem like there is a consensus of the best version of this deck, 1) breach, 2) two drop creatures (YP, TITI), 3) madcap, or 4) hard control. Kiki Jiki appears to be ruled out of the conversation.

The article advocates for the hard control version, and gives solid reasoning. However the hard control version has some bad match ups (linear aggro decks, eldrazi, bogles, and hollow one). The madcap combo is solid vs eldrazi and hollow one. Thing in the ice is good against all three of those decks.

With that said, it seems like which version to play is more of a meta call. You can also build your sideboard to have multiple angles of attack.

Quote from darkvoidman »

Thinking picking up the deck(pyro titi version cause i dont have the combo).My main consern is jund how good is young pyro vs jund ,and how good is titi?Also how you guys deal with veil ?

If you want to beat jund you should play the hard control version, where you make most of their removal spells bad, and liliana's edict less of a back breaking thing. Also to hedge against jund you can main deck an entrancing melody over a clique.

Jund has too many ways to mess with pyromancer (removal, discard it or your spells) and it's a bad top deck. Ideally you'd play pyromancer on turn 4 and kill something, double cantrip, or both.

I've played a version of this deck where it had 3 YPs, and 3 TITIs. The non-bo of those two cards didn't come up that much. However you probably want to play one or the other not both. They're both really powerful two drops so you want to pick one and just play 4 of it so you have a better chance of drawing it.

The way to beat liliana is to not let the jund opponent get value out of her. You don't want them to get edict value. You don't want them to plus her with no cards in their hand. You don't want to throw multiple cards away to get her off the table. Against liliana, and jund in general, you want to keep track of how you trade cards with them.

If you're on the draw, don't slam your two drop creature on turn 2, if the opponent plays turn 3 liliana and edicts you, you just got wrecked. Then on your turn 3 you bolt the liliana, the liliana just got 2 cards, your bolt and creature. That's like the super basic obvious situation to not put yourself in.

If you get edicted, you can get back on card parody if you had an electrolyze. In that instance you traded your 2 drop for their liliana, and cycled an electrolyze (which is card neutral).

Also something to think about is how strong are the cards in your hand. If you are flooded, or have weak/dead cards like opt/remand blood moon, then it might be worth letting the opponent tick up the liliana so you're both trading cards. If your opponent trades their spell for your land with the liliana discard, that's a great trade for you, as you'll have better top decking equity than them. Then you can bolt/snap bolt the liliana at 6 counters, or you can bolt/electrolyze a liliana at 5 counters, and come out even on card parody.

Jace, Cryptic, Snapcaster, electrolyze, clique, young pryomancer are the cards that can help you beat a resolved liliana.

Which version would be better for a meta full of tron and storm? The kiki combo or TiTi?

I was going to go with TiTi because I think it might be better overall, but the MetA seems kind of bad for it.