What are your opinions on Stoic Rebuttal? Also maybe Chalice of the void in the sideboard, but it's expensive to put it at 2 counters...
I thought about Stoic Rebuttal, but I don't think this deck really needs counterspells. I'm usually tapping out each turn in the early game to cast all of my combo pieces and disruption, then later on they don't have anything in their hand to counter because I made them draw only useless cards.
However, I could see it working well with a Thopter Foundry build. You can just sit back on your counterspells, and spend what you don't use on countering spells and removing creatures with the foundry to gain a bunch of life and blockers. It seems like a good way to get rid of redundant Lanterns, opals and any extra Mishra's Baubles that you don't need later on. Maybe a list looking something like this...
I feel like with this build you have to use Tezzeret the Seeker to tutor up a bunch of artifacts to sacrifice to the foundry. Tezzeret's Ultimate is also very good with the flying thopters. I upped the land to account for the increased cost. This deck is pretty good at controlling it's own topdeck with Ghoulcaller's Bell, so you can find the lands that you need that way.
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This deck is very intriguing. I'm a pretty big fan of weird interactions and synergy. I like having black in the deck for the targeted discard. Thoughtseize hurts, but there are other options that are nice, mainly Duress, because we don't care all that much about creatures once Porphyry Nodes gets online. Here's what I'm currently running.
Things I think would be good:
Thopter Foundry - Life gain and blockers. Then you can Academy Ruins the stuff back to your hand. Seems really powerful. Maybe in place of Tezzeret and some other things.
Thought Scour - More ways of getting cards off their topdeck, built into your card draw
Tezzeret the Seeker - Tutors Mox Opals and Darksteel Citadel for free, tutors combo pieces for cheap. Also lets you mill more by untapping things, ramps if you have opal or Citadel, then wins the game with all of your 1 mana 5/5s.
Thought Scour and U Tezz had been disclosed in earlier posts. Results: Thought Scour: MAYBE, thought imo there are better things. U tezz: I like it. A lot.
Thopter foundry: Interesting... Worthy of a test?
Really? You don't like the Mishra's Bauble maybe? You're right i can't do anything to a needle that hit the board (except EE for 1 which is very bad for us) :s
I don't see what else i can do to get the lock faster. Card selection like Serum Vision?
I like Thoughtseize to deal with what i can't control with the lock (i.e. opponent hand), but as 7H0R pointed out, Duress might be better as we have removal for creature cards (i still don't like to see Broodbraid Elf so i'd try a split).
It's not that toughtseize is bad. It's the 2 life AND turn 1 idea that turn's it down for me. Your build uses mox opal to have the required mana for a lock piece and discard on turn 1, but still imo Thoughtseize slows you and this is a deck where we need every single life point. MAYBE inquisition of kozilek would be viable (it's the same minus the 2 life requirement), but i'll let that to you to test.
I don't want to play a card that just give me 5 life once, even if it costed 0 mana (it still cost a card). And i don't want to pay 5 mana and NOT draw anymore during my draw step to get the repeatable effect.
I'd prefer not to need life gain.
Makes sense. You try to eliminate the threats and then get the lock while i try to build the lock, while gaining time and THEN deal with any threats. But think of the gain life as Sacrifice: Buys you an extra turn. Most of the time i dont loop back the spellbomb or the elixirs (they do it themselves) because they're like aspirins. Dispatchable.
Changes
Tormod's Crypt: Fits more or less my meta and can be tutored.
Executioner's Capsule: Like kormemuz said, recursive removal and can be tutored.
Darksteel Citadel: Land and can be tutored. Yes, its colorless i know. But its mana.
Esper Charm: The toolbox. Can be used to discard if you notice they're keeping something, can deal with leylines and other stuff and can be used for cantrip. I want to add more, but the fragile mana base of my budgeted deck build keeps me me from doing so.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: I have one spare from long ago and sometimes you want to just... you know. Speed the process.
I'm not sure where you would fit it, but could hand disruption fit in here? when I tested this deck briefly, I had a lot of problems with what my opponents already had in their hand, and that seems like a cure for that.
I've tried playing hand disruption off the SB without much consistent success. There seems to be some people trying hand disruption variants, maybe they can comment on the results.
Quote from Sesodereht »
I'm with you on avoiding the 2cmc stuff just because I'm terribly inclined towards getting chalice set to two if I ever get it as a toolbox.
I had a revelation earlier today, using Thought Scour instead of Serum Visions.
How did that go? I'm still more inclined towards Sleight of Hand just because it gives me the option of drawing either of the first two.
Quote from The TennesseeFireman »
Out of curiosity, has anybody tried this against a pure burn deck? Seems to me that if you can't get a Sunbeam Spellbomb engine going quickly, you die pretty horribly, considering they have a low land count, few creatures, and a very simple gameplan.
Also, what's the game 1 plan against something like Loam or Unburial Gifts? Seems to me that Relic of Progenitus has a place in the maindeck as a 1-of Trinket Mage target, since it can always be cracked for a card if you don't have anything of worth in your graveyard yet.
I had some games when I had Pulse of the Fields on the deck, RDW had no chance against that card.
On the Unburial and Loam well, most of us are SBing Relic of Progenitus and some other stuff for those situations.
Quote from monovfox »
have I mentioned how much I hate this deck?
Mission Accomplished! : )
Quote from ForestHex »
hey here is just a suggestion before someone else suggests it, after playtesting with pancake on cockatrice for awhile we came up with the conclusion, black is a great splash, tezzeret, agent of bolas and also maindecking ensnaring bridge is helpful
I've only tested Tezzeret the Seeker, but I can see Agent of Bolas being much more interactive and effective with the deck's theme.
Quote from Planeshifter »
I'll just leave this here
I don't know if it can help your deck, but I used to do that combo in a merfolk deck with Drowner of Secrets and low cost merfolks, and a few counters(and Cursecatcher, witch is both), the lock was always pretty effective since you can dig deeper on the top cards of both yours and your opponents library.
Maybe some kind of mashup between the two ideas can come up with something nice and effective. Not counting only in the creatures and not counting only in the milling artifacts
Either deck could be worked on, but I doubt both could be merged, trying to add more creatures to the deck seems to slow it (from testing Sage of Epytir). Leave comments if you try it.
Quote from everyone »
Tezz 1 > Tezz 2
They are both good for the deck, I don't consider either to be faster since you won't drop them until you have the lock and either can win you the game. I see it as a matter of personal preference, they both work flawlessly.
Quote from Planeshifter »
So... if the opponent or us use Thirst for Knowledge, all cards must be revealed? It's kind of a tricky question
I ask my opponents to show the cards always just to know what they draw. But someone already said you can't interrupt the resolution, the best you can do is respond to it and leave a land on top with the combo to at least make sure one of the draws is a land.
Quote from Kornemuz »
here is my take on this deck.
Very interesting how you fit some hand disruption into it and I like the Capsule, easy to include with the Orchards. I will get back to you when I have more time cause I gtg now.
Quote from 7H0R »
Thopter Foundry
I've added it to the deck a lot of times when I go through the card pool to make changes based on game tests, but always end up pulling it out for lack of space. I'll test it this weekend cause I think it has more synergy with the deck as a wincon than either Tezz. Because for tezz to win you need to have the lock already while this can win if you have the lock, but if you don't it can help you get the lock by buying time with chump blockers.
-----
Good job guys, keep it going this is getting really interesting, I'll get back after I rework my list with all suggestions here and do some tests on the weekend.
EDIT: While we're trying to add weird wincons, and talking about "convertible sideboards" I was trying last week a 1-off Etched Champion, 1-off Darksteel Plate and 1-off Worldslayer. Once you lock you can set up any combo at you own pace, however, drawing into them before the lock can hurt, if not cause you the game.
After testing, I actually like Batterskull the best for a devoted win con.
I tried Tezz vX.0, and all he did was get countered against stuff like Delver and UW Restoration Midrange. Then I tried swapping him out for Chimeric Mass because Trinket Mage can get it, but it bit removal harder than Celestial Colonnade did (and the only reason I'm keeping Colonnade in my build is because it's also a mana-fixing land). Finally, I swapped it out for Batterskull, and I'm fairly happy.
If it gets countered, I'll eventually get it back with Academy Ruins. If it's unfortunate enough to get discarded, same thing. It's also fairly removal-resilient, as I can bounce it and replay it (this consumes turns, though). And the only cards that exile or tuck artifacts that I see in Modern are Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere, Karn Liberated, and Hide // Seek, and I've probably seen Karn the most often.
It's not as fast a win con as Tezz 1.0, but I'd rather be sure my dedicated win con makes an impact.
After testing, I actually like Batterskull the best for a devoted win con.
I tried Tezz vX.0, and all he did was get countered against stuff like Delver and UW Restoration Midrange. Then I tried swapping him out for Chimeric Mass because Trinket Mage can get it, but it bit removal harder than Celestial Colonnade did (and the only reason I'm keeping Colonnade in my build is because it's also a mana-fixing land). Finally, I swapped it out for Batterskull, and I'm fairly happy.
If it gets countered, I'll eventually get it back with Academy Ruins. If it's unfortunate enough to get discarded, same thing. It's also fairly removal-resilient, as I can bounce it and replay it (this consumes turns, though). And the only cards that exile or tuck artifacts that I see in Modern are Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere, Karn Liberated, and Hide // Seek, and I've probably seen Karn the most often.
It's not as fast a win con as Tezz 1.0, but I'd rather be sure my dedicated win con makes an impact.
You're playing the deck wrong. You first solve the lock. THEN, you see how to win. And as zerodown said, nearly anything works.
My Plan A is always milling them to death or making them ragequit concede If i draw the Tezz and know that they can do nothing about it (Lantern or Gitaxian), then i play it. And remember that you can sac the codex shredder to get back something, then use ruins to bring the codex back. It's not an easy to play deck. It's the type of deck you bring a whole notebook to keep track of what they draw and what they have in their hands.
After some testing with my build i noticed two things.
A) Esper charm rules
B) My mana base is "#$%&. And cause im cheap poor, i'll have to get creative to solve this.
You're playing the deck wrong. You first solve the lock. THEN, you see how to win. And as zerodown said, nearly anything works.
My Plan A is always milling them to death or making them ragequit concede If i draw the Tezz and know that they can do nothing about it (Lantern or Gitaxian), then i play it. And remember that you can sac the codex shredder to get back something, then use ruins to bring the codex back. It's not an easy to play deck. It's the type of deck you bring a whole notebook to keep track of what they draw and what they have in their hands.
With my current build, I try to assemble the lock first, but I tend to use Oust offensively as a Time Walk-like effect. I've also found the lock is only truly secure if I have at least two Shredders; I've lost too many games to two good topdecks in a row when I only have one Shredder out.
Because I find that the one-Shredder lock is fairly insecure, I tend to let my opponent keep removal at all points in the game and soft counterspells (e.g. Spell Pierce, Mana Leak) mid- to late-game. I prioritize milling creatures and other threats (planeswalkers, powerful sorceries, manlands, cantrips that don't say "Draw a card" on them, cards that draw 2+ cards, etc.). Unfortunately, those soft counterspells become very live against Tezz, and those removal spells become very live against Chimeric Mass.
Perhaps my liking of winning faster is from my experience testing Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree in this deck. I originally put Vitu-Ghazi in as Porphyry Nodes fodder, but then I found it was my primary way of winning the game. (Milling is fairly close, but the one-Shredder lock is still surprisingly insecure. Also, Codex Shredder is so much better than Ghoulcaller's Bell (the self-mill gets annoying fast) that I've never wanted to pop a Shredder. I've also never felt the need to pop a Shredder--it takes too long to recur threats.) Forcing X/1's to hold back from attacking was also pretty funny with Vitu-Ghazi, and I've only occasionally ran into mana trouble with only one Temple Garden and 4-5 fetchlands. Even then, I added one Mox Opal to the deck as another green mana source.
(Because Porphyry Nodes dies immediately as soon as there are no creatures, Vitu-Ghazi is much worse Porphyry fodder than you'd think. You need at least two tokens out at some point to guarantee keeping the Nodes active at all times. I ended up using Porphyry Nodes as pseudo-spot removal very often.)
I may swap some removal for counterspells (or even targeted discard if I stop liking Vitu-Ghazi), as those will help fix this deck's weakness to opening hands.
Oh yeah, Batterskull also gives me a nice life gain buffer. I tend to let RUG Delver draw into Bolts because they're primarily used as removal, but without Batterskull or other life gain, I cannot afford to let them get 4 Bolts in hand or I'm dead.
It came from the fact that i don't like the nodes or the orchard alone and i wanted to bring in ensnaring bridge to replace them.
I mean, nodes alone are very slow because you have to wait on your opponent to put a creature in play and then another full turn before it's efficient. Orchards alone are just ok if you have a trinket mage to block tokens.
So i wanted to remove white, which meant no Dispatch.
But, the cool thing is that i can have a sick artifact theme!
Removing white means i can play darksteel citadels and more opals
Ensnaring Bridge deals with creatures while being an artifact. It's not tutorable with the mage so i tried to put the full set to see how it goes, but i feel like it could replace all the removals in the deck.
I did add a tezz as it seems like a very good win con with all those artifacts!
Batterskull seems pretty good too, good idea!
edit : it probably needs a way to sacrifice an artifact as there are many bridges and opals, so a thopter foundry seems to fit.
Seems competitive. And fast. And expensive. Like a Ferrari. An incredibly hateful, will shattering non-red Ferrari if you're against it. It's interesting the idea of taking out white. Most of the lands/mana requirements in my build are white. I think Etched Champion would be a very good fit in your build. Though, truth be told, i dont like it much. I feel like it tries to stray a bit far from the original goal, though all the lock stills there.
With my current build, I try to assemble the lock first, but I tend to use Oust offensively as a Time Walk-like effect. I've also found the lock is only truly secure if I have at least two Shredders; I've lost too many games to two good topdecks in a row when I only have one Shredder out.
I did as well, but not that many actually. Using the oust as a recursion for Trinket mage and a 3 life buff actually helps getting all the cards in most games.
Because I find that the one-Shredder lock is fairly insecure, I tend to let my opponent keep removal at all points in the game and soft counterspells (e.g. Spell Pierce, Mana Leak) mid- to late-game. I prioritize milling creatures and other threats (planeswalkers, powerful sorceries, manlands, cantrips that don't say "Draw a card" on them, cards that draw 2+ cards, etc.). Unfortunately, those soft counterspells become very live against Tezz, and those removal spells become very live against Chimeric Mass.
Perhaps my liking of winning faster is from my experience testing Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree in this deck. I originally put Vitu-Ghazi in as Porphyry Nodes fodder, but then I found it was my primary way of winning the game. (Milling is fairly close, but the one-Shredder lock is still surprisingly insecure. Also, Codex Shredder is so much better than Ghoulcaller's Bell (the self-mill gets annoying fast) that I've never wanted to pop a Shredder. I've also never felt the need to pop a Shredder--it takes too long to recur threats.) Forcing X/1's to hold back from attacking was also pretty funny with Vitu-Ghazi, and I've only occasionally ran into mana trouble with only one Temple Garden and 4-5 fetchlands. Even then, I added one Mox Opal to the deck as another green mana source.
Vitu-Ghazi? GREEN? :Grabs his head like if he had taken a Glimps the Unthinkable for real: Why not, either this Sprinjack Pasture or Kher Keep or even Nuisance Engine?
(Because Porphyry Nodes dies immediately as soon as there are no creatures, Vitu-Ghazi is much worse Porphyry fodder than you'd think. You need at least two tokens out at some point to guarantee keeping the Nodes active at all times. I ended up using Porphyry Nodes as pseudo-spot removal very often.)
I may swap some removal for counterspells (or even targeted discard if I stop liking Vitu-Ghazi), as those will help fix this deck's weakness to opening hands.
Oh yeah, Batterskull also gives me a nice life gain buffer. I tend to let RUG Delver draw into Bolts because they're primarily used as removal, but without Batterskull or other life gain, I cannot afford to let them get 4 Bolts in hand or I'm dead.
Yeah, that was what i was goint to talk about now. Porphyry Nodes. The fact that you have to wait a whole turn to make them do something is game deciding in some matches. Im thinking on what to use that i can afford for a similar effect. Zealous Persecution as a pseudo pyroclasm is doing a great job in my sideboard and maybe a full set betwen the main and the sb will be a start. Also painlands. Now im getting why they're called like that. I hate em. I cant seem to find a good balance on mana that doesnt cost me enough life to actually endanger my results.
Im going to try my previous build with the following changes.
3 Nodes out >> a land and two persecutions or two Ghostly Prison
1 Tormod's Crypt >> 1 Pithing needle
1 Glimpse the unthinkable in the sideboard >> something
I think Reshape is probably a better tutor than Tezzeret. That way, we can use the 4 Mana Tezzeret instead as a better win con. This also allows us to find pieces of our combo and get rid of unneeded artifacts. I propose something like this.
The land base probably needs work. I upped to 18 land to accommodate the high overall casting cost with Reshape and Thopter Foundry.
Thopter Foundry and Epochrasite seem like they play well together for a nice win con. Instead, I may just cut the Epochrasites for some nice Equipment, like Sword of Light and Shadow.
Tidehollow Sculler is pretty good by himself just as a guy to attack with and disruption, but he's also good with Thopter Foundry to exile things in hands forever.
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I think Reshape is probably a better tutor than Tezzeret. That way, we can use the 4 Mana Tezzeret instead as a better win con. This also allows us to find pieces of our combo and get rid of unneeded artifacts. I propose something like this.
The land base probably needs work. I upped to 18 land to accommodate the high overall casting cost with Reshape and Thopter Foundry.
Thopter Foundry and Epochrasite seem like they play well together for a nice win con. Instead, I may just cut the Epochrasites for some nice Equipment, like Sword of Light and Shadow.
Tidehollow Sculler is pretty good by himself just as a guy to attack with and disruption, but he's also good with Thopter Foundry to exile things in hands forever.
Probably, the Epochrasites with the three turn suspend doesnt seem like a good idea. I would run a second pithing and a fourth, either reshape, opal or dispatch.
Im still having trouble with my build in the land department. The painlands just are too... painful. Also my build probably needs some sort of disruption. The life gain sometimes is just not enough.
Also, i found two little cards that can break our plans pretty easily: Thalia and Blood Moon. The former makes everything cost 2 and that ruins the deck badly. Pretty fragile, yes, but given that can be on the board as soon as turn 2... Bloodmoon i think needs no explanation.
I was running a different deck with Nodes in it, and it was almost creaureless too, but I found that the perfect creature for me was Predator Ooze. You can up it's p/t as you need and you ensure that your Nodes will not take itself off the field. You want to make sure that you do up the p/t though, so you can keep targeting opponent's creatures. Clearly that would not work with your colors, but i wanted to share it anyway.
I'm also contemplating replacing white with Black as that provides access to targeted discard which I think this deck would really benefit from, because really, some things do get through sometimes. That or even removal, Bob? Would Bob work?
I'm also contemplating replacing white with Black as that provides access to targeted discard which I think this deck would really benefit from, because really, some things do get through sometimes. That or even removal, Bob? Would Bob work?
Oh yeah. Bob seems really good in this deck. Everything costs so little. If only he was an artifact so you could get rid of him with Thopter Foundry. Thopter Foundry does do pretty well to offset the life loss though.
Only problem that I see is that he doesn't play well with Ensnaring Bridge, but then again, you will be mostly casting everything you draw.
Overall I think he's definitely one of the things this deck needs to be competitive.
I'm going to be testing out this list today against Robots, Storm and 1 shot Elementals and see how things go. I'll report back later.
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Gonna be doing some playtesting today. What I love most about this deck is that there are many different U(x) shells to put it in, I personally prefer UW because Supreme Verdict==Sweet vs Resto. (a tough match)
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So it seems like most of the time the lock is done by making the opponent draw lands the entire game. For all you people doing play testing, do you ever probe their hand, see 2 lands, a bunch of 3 cost spells and decide to try to deny them land? If so, how often does this occur and how successful is it? It seems like denying lands would be a lot easier than forcing land draws, because you only have to hit on average 1/3 cards instead of 2/3. What if we used land destruction to blow up their lands while denying them lands? Ghostly prison would be ridiculously good in this type of deck. Are there any good armageddon effects in modern?
So it seems like most of the time the lock is done by making the opponent draw lands the entire game. For all you people doing play testing, do you ever probe their hand, see 2 lands, a bunch of 3 cost spells and decide to try to deny them land? If so, how often does this occur and how successful is it? It seems like denying lands would be a lot easier than forcing land draws, because you only have to hit on average 1/3 cards instead of 2/3. What if we used land destruction to blow up their lands while denying them lands? Ghostly prison would be ridiculously good in this type of deck. Are there any good armageddon effects in modern?
Decide to deny a lot of decks lands and you will just hand them business instead. You'll think twice about denying Jund land if they kept a hand of only 3+ drops when you let them keep Bob (2 cmc), Goyf (2 cmc), and Deathrite Shaman (1 cmc, ramps).
Probably a more disturbing match-up is attempting to deny Pod land. Yeah, you'll probably succeed at that, but you just let them keep mana dorks instead. (Actually, it's pretty hard to keep Pod off one of mana or business. Twin Pod has 23 lands + 10 mana dorks = 33 mana on average, and it has 27 non-mana cards you must keep Twin Pod off of.)
So it seems like most of the time the lock is done by making the opponent draw lands the entire game. For all you people doing play testing, do you ever probe their hand, see 2 lands, a bunch of 3 cost spells and decide to try to deny them land? If so, how often does this occur and how successful is it? It seems like denying lands would be a lot easier than forcing land draws, because you only have to hit on average 1/3 cards instead of 2/3. What if we used land destruction to blow up their lands while denying them lands? Ghostly prison would be ridiculously good in this type of deck. Are there any good armageddon effects in modern?
I tried to deny lands against jund. And failed miserably. And Ghostly, is fine on the builds that run White.
I was playing Trinket's of Insight (Just what I'm calling the deck xD) in Lantern's IQ and lost in the first round, but I believe this deck is defiantly getting to a decent competitive level, here's the list I was playing:
Now i haven't had a ton of success using discard, so i was wondering how others were doing with it? Also has anyone had any success with counters? I'm also going to be removing welding Jar. It hasn't really been pulling its wait in my opinion and maybe the wrath too. What else do u think i could put in place of those cards to help improve the tron match up since this deck can not beat turn 3 Karn unless u have pithing needle in hand. I also want to re suggest Maindecking Ensnaring Bridge and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as they're great additions that fix the aggro matchs up a lot.
Tested against a Burn deck and 1 Shot Elementals today.
Ensnaring Bridge is so good. Definitely needs at least 2 in the main. I'll probably Sideboard a third.
Thopter Foundry is also way better than expected. It's so good to just sac extra opals and excess combo pieces to gain life and blockers.
Dark Confidant actually performed underwhelmingly compared to the just straight card draw of Thoughtcast.
Mishra's Bauble is unnecessary, but it does mean that we need to run more lands. Also in my build with Reshape, Thopter Foundry and Ensnaring bridge, mana became an issue a lot. I bumped up to 19 lands and 3 opals.
Also, I actually sacrificed a Codex Shredder today for it's return ability to get back a Tezzeret, then cast it and won. Good stuff.
Here's the list I ended up with after tweaking throughout the day.
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I thought about Stoic Rebuttal, but I don't think this deck really needs counterspells. I'm usually tapping out each turn in the early game to cast all of my combo pieces and disruption, then later on they don't have anything in their hand to counter because I made them draw only useless cards.
However, I could see it working well with a Thopter Foundry build. You can just sit back on your counterspells, and spend what you don't use on countering spells and removing creatures with the foundry to gain a bunch of life and blockers. It seems like a good way to get rid of redundant Lanterns, opals and any extra Mishra's Baubles that you don't need later on. Maybe a list looking something like this...
4 Trinket Mage
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
//Removal and Disruption
3 Duress
3 Stoic Rebuttal
2 Porphyry Nodes
4 Thoughtcast
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
//Land
3 Glimmervoid
2 Forbidden Orchard
3 Marsh Flats
2 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
I feel like with this build you have to use Tezzeret the Seeker to tutor up a bunch of artifacts to sacrifice to the foundry. Tezzeret's Ultimate is also very good with the flying thopters. I upped the land to account for the increased cost. This deck is pretty good at controlling it's own topdeck with Ghoulcaller's Bell, so you can find the lands that you need that way.
Standard:
Modern:
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Thought Scour and U Tezz had been disclosed in earlier posts. Results: Thought Scour: MAYBE, thought imo there are better things. U tezz: I like it. A lot.
Thopter foundry: Interesting... Worthy of a test?
That MUST be addresed in the sb
It's not that toughtseize is bad. It's the 2 life AND turn 1 idea that turn's it down for me. Your build uses mox opal to have the required mana for a lock piece and discard on turn 1, but still imo Thoughtseize slows you and this is a deck where we need every single life point. MAYBE inquisition of kozilek would be viable (it's the same minus the 2 life requirement), but i'll let that to you to test.
Makes sense. You try to eliminate the threats and then get the lock while i try to build the lock, while gaining time and THEN deal with any threats. But think of the gain life as Sacrifice: Buys you an extra turn. Most of the time i dont loop back the spellbomb or the elixirs (they do it themselves) because they're like aspirins. Dispatchable.
Now, here is my updated build
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Academy Ruins
5 Plains
2 Island
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Adarkar Wastes
1 Underground River
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Swamp
1 Darksteel Citadel
The Survival Kit
3 Oust
3 Porphyry Nodes
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Condemn
2 Sleight of Hand
2 Esper Charm
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Trinket Mage
The Tezz
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Condemn
Changes
Tormod's Crypt: Fits more or less my meta and can be tutored.
Executioner's Capsule: Like kormemuz said, recursive removal and can be tutored.
Darksteel Citadel: Land and can be tutored. Yes, its colorless i know. But its mana.
Esper Charm: The toolbox. Can be used to discard if you notice they're keeping something, can deal with leylines and other stuff and can be used for cantrip. I want to add more, but the fragile mana base of my budgeted deck build keeps me me from doing so.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: I have one spare from long ago and sometimes you want to just... you know. Speed the process.
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
I've tried playing hand disruption off the SB without much consistent success. There seems to be some people trying hand disruption variants, maybe they can comment on the results.
How did that go? I'm still more inclined towards Sleight of Hand just because it gives me the option of drawing either of the first two.
I had some games when I had Pulse of the Fields on the deck, RDW had no chance against that card.
On the Unburial and Loam well, most of us are SBing Relic of Progenitus and some other stuff for those situations.
Mission Accomplished! : )
I've only tested Tezzeret the Seeker, but I can see Agent of Bolas being much more interactive and effective with the deck's theme.
Either deck could be worked on, but I doubt both could be merged, trying to add more creatures to the deck seems to slow it (from testing Sage of Epytir). Leave comments if you try it.
They are both good for the deck, I don't consider either to be faster since you won't drop them until you have the lock and either can win you the game. I see it as a matter of personal preference, they both work flawlessly.
I ask my opponents to show the cards always just to know what they draw. But someone already said you can't interrupt the resolution, the best you can do is respond to it and leave a land on top with the combo to at least make sure one of the draws is a land.
Very interesting how you fit some hand disruption into it and I like the Capsule, easy to include with the Orchards. I will get back to you when I have more time cause I gtg now.
I've added it to the deck a lot of times when I go through the card pool to make changes based on game tests, but always end up pulling it out for lack of space. I'll test it this weekend cause I think it has more synergy with the deck as a wincon than either Tezz. Because for tezz to win you need to have the lock already while this can win if you have the lock, but if you don't it can help you get the lock by buying time with chump blockers.
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Good job guys, keep it going this is getting really interesting, I'll get back after I rework my list with all suggestions here and do some tests on the weekend.
EDIT: While we're trying to add weird wincons, and talking about "convertible sideboards" I was trying last week a 1-off Etched Champion, 1-off Darksteel Plate and 1-off Worldslayer. Once you lock you can set up any combo at you own pace, however, drawing into them before the lock can hurt, if not cause you the game.
I tried Tezz vX.0, and all he did was get countered against stuff like Delver and UW Restoration Midrange. Then I tried swapping him out for Chimeric Mass because Trinket Mage can get it, but it bit removal harder than Celestial Colonnade did (and the only reason I'm keeping Colonnade in my build is because it's also a mana-fixing land). Finally, I swapped it out for Batterskull, and I'm fairly happy.
If it gets countered, I'll eventually get it back with Academy Ruins. If it's unfortunate enough to get discarded, same thing. It's also fairly removal-resilient, as I can bounce it and replay it (this consumes turns, though). And the only cards that exile or tuck artifacts that I see in Modern are Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere, Karn Liberated, and Hide // Seek, and I've probably seen Karn the most often.
It's not as fast a win con as Tezz 1.0, but I'd rather be sure my dedicated win con makes an impact.
You're playing the deck wrong. You first solve the lock. THEN, you see how to win. And as zerodown said, nearly anything works.
My Plan A is always milling them to death or making them
ragequitconcede If i draw the Tezz and know that they can do nothing about it (Lantern or Gitaxian), then i play it. And remember that you can sac the codex shredder to get back something, then use ruins to bring the codex back. It's not an easy to play deck. It's the type of deck you bring a whole notebook to keep track of what they draw and what they have in their hands.After some testing with my build i noticed two things.
A) Esper charm rules
B) My mana base is "#$%&. And cause im
cheappoor, i'll have to get creative to solve this.BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
With my current build, I try to assemble the lock first, but I tend to use Oust offensively as a Time Walk-like effect. I've also found the lock is only truly secure if I have at least two Shredders; I've lost too many games to two good topdecks in a row when I only have one Shredder out.
Because I find that the one-Shredder lock is fairly insecure, I tend to let my opponent keep removal at all points in the game and soft counterspells (e.g. Spell Pierce, Mana Leak) mid- to late-game. I prioritize milling creatures and other threats (planeswalkers, powerful sorceries, manlands, cantrips that don't say "Draw a card" on them, cards that draw 2+ cards, etc.). Unfortunately, those soft counterspells become very live against Tezz, and those removal spells become very live against Chimeric Mass.
Perhaps my liking of winning faster is from my experience testing Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree in this deck. I originally put Vitu-Ghazi in as Porphyry Nodes fodder, but then I found it was my primary way of winning the game. (Milling is fairly close, but the one-Shredder lock is still surprisingly insecure. Also, Codex Shredder is so much better than Ghoulcaller's Bell (the self-mill gets annoying fast) that I've never wanted to pop a Shredder. I've also never felt the need to pop a Shredder--it takes too long to recur threats.) Forcing X/1's to hold back from attacking was also pretty funny with Vitu-Ghazi, and I've only occasionally ran into mana trouble with only one Temple Garden and 4-5 fetchlands. Even then, I added one Mox Opal to the deck as another green mana source.
(Because Porphyry Nodes dies immediately as soon as there are no creatures, Vitu-Ghazi is much worse Porphyry fodder than you'd think. You need at least two tokens out at some point to guarantee keeping the Nodes active at all times. I ended up using Porphyry Nodes as pseudo-spot removal very often.)
I may swap some removal for counterspells (or even targeted discard if I stop liking Vitu-Ghazi), as those will help fix this deck's weakness to opening hands.
Oh yeah, Batterskull also gives me a nice life gain buffer. I tend to let RUG Delver draw into Bolts because they're primarily used as removal, but without Batterskull or other life gain, I cannot afford to let them get 4 Bolts in hand or I'm dead.
Discard suite?
Burn would be unnecessary. But red does provide things like Faithless Looting. Then there's also Desperate Ravings.
Seems competitive. And fast. And expensive. Like a Ferrari. An incredibly hateful, will shattering non-red Ferrari if you're against it. It's interesting the idea of taking out white. Most of the lands/mana requirements in my build are white. I think Etched Champion would be a very good fit in your build. Though, truth be told, i dont like it much. I feel like it tries to stray a bit far from the original goal, though all the lock stills there.
If you do that, and you on the other side of the table, i WILL do THIS
I did as well, but not that many actually. Using the oust as a recursion for Trinket mage and a 3 life buff actually helps getting all the cards in most games.
Vitu-Ghazi? GREEN? :Grabs his head like if he had taken a Glimps the Unthinkable for real: Why not, either this Sprinjack Pasture or Kher Keep or even Nuisance Engine?
Yeah, that was what i was goint to talk about now. Porphyry Nodes. The fact that you have to wait a whole turn to make them do something is game deciding in some matches. Im thinking on what to use that i can afford for a similar effect. Zealous Persecution as a pseudo pyroclasm is doing a great job in my sideboard and maybe a full set betwen the main and the sb will be a start. Also painlands. Now im getting why they're called like that. I hate em. I cant seem to find a good balance on mana that doesnt cost me enough life to actually endanger my results.
Im going to try my previous build with the following changes.
3 Nodes out >> a land and two persecutions or two Ghostly Prison
1 Tormod's Crypt >> 1 Pithing needle
1 Glimpse the unthinkable in the sideboard >> something
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
3 Mox Opal
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
//Tutors
4 Trinket Mage
3 Reshape
//Artifacts
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Epochrasite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Duress
3 Dispatch
//Land
4 Glimmervoid
3 Marsh Flats
2 Reflecting Pool
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
The land base probably needs work. I upped to 18 land to accommodate the high overall casting cost with Reshape and Thopter Foundry.
Thopter Foundry and Epochrasite seem like they play well together for a nice win con. Instead, I may just cut the Epochrasites for some nice Equipment, like Sword of Light and Shadow.
Tidehollow Sculler is pretty good by himself just as a guy to attack with and disruption, but he's also good with Thopter Foundry to exile things in hands forever.
Standard:
Modern:
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Probably, the Epochrasites with the three turn suspend doesnt seem like a good idea. I would run a second pithing and a fourth, either reshape, opal or dispatch.
Im still having trouble with my build in the land department. The painlands just are too... painful. Also my build probably needs some sort of disruption. The life gain sometimes is just not enough.
Also, i found two little cards that can break our plans pretty easily: Thalia and Blood Moon. The former makes everything cost 2 and that ruins the deck badly. Pretty fragile, yes, but given that can be on the board as soon as turn 2... Bloodmoon i think needs no explanation.
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UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Haunting Echoes could be the nail in the coffin.
Oh yeah. Bob seems really good in this deck. Everything costs so little. If only he was an artifact so you could get rid of him with Thopter Foundry. Thopter Foundry does do pretty well to offset the life loss though.
Only problem that I see is that he doesn't play well with Ensnaring Bridge, but then again, you will be mostly casting everything you draw.
Overall I think he's definitely one of the things this deck needs to be competitive.
I'm going to be testing out this list today against Robots, Storm and 1 shot Elementals and see how things go. I'll report back later.
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
3 Mox Opal
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
//Tutors
4 Trinket Mage
3 Reshape
//The Rest
2 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Dark Confidant
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Duress
3 Dispatch
//Land
4 Glimmervoid
3 Marsh Flats
2 Reflecting Pool
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
Standard:
Modern:
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Decide to deny a lot of decks lands and you will just hand them business instead. You'll think twice about denying Jund land if they kept a hand of only 3+ drops when you let them keep Bob (2 cmc), Goyf (2 cmc), and Deathrite Shaman (1 cmc, ramps).
Probably a more disturbing match-up is attempting to deny Pod land. Yeah, you'll probably succeed at that, but you just let them keep mana dorks instead. (Actually, it's pretty hard to keep Pod off one of mana or business. Twin Pod has 23 lands + 10 mana dorks = 33 mana on average, and it has 27 non-mana cards you must keep Twin Pod off of.)
I tried to deny lands against jund. And failed miserably. And Ghostly, is fine on the builds that run White.
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Opal
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Island
3 Darksteel Citadel
1 Tolaria West
4 Glimmervoid
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
2 Porphyry Nodes
Now i haven't had a ton of success using discard, so i was wondering how others were doing with it? Also has anyone had any success with counters? I'm also going to be removing welding Jar. It hasn't really been pulling its wait in my opinion and maybe the wrath too. What else do u think i could put in place of those cards to help improve the tron match up since this deck can not beat turn 3 Karn unless u have pithing needle in hand. I also want to re suggest Maindecking Ensnaring Bridge and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as they're great additions that fix the aggro matchs up a lot.
Ensnaring Bridge is so good. Definitely needs at least 2 in the main. I'll probably Sideboard a third.
Thopter Foundry is also way better than expected. It's so good to just sac extra opals and excess combo pieces to gain life and blockers.
Dark Confidant actually performed underwhelmingly compared to the just straight card draw of Thoughtcast.
Mishra's Bauble is unnecessary, but it does mean that we need to run more lands. Also in my build with Reshape, Thopter Foundry and Ensnaring bridge, mana became an issue a lot. I bumped up to 19 lands and 3 opals.
Also, I actually sacrificed a Codex Shredder today for it's return ability to get back a Tezzeret, then cast it and won. Good stuff.
Here's the list I ended up with after tweaking throughout the day.
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
3 Mox Opal
//Tutors
4 Trinket Mage
2 Reshape
//Disruption
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Duress
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Dispatch
1 Path to Exile
//Other
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Thoughtcast
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Glimmervoid
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
1 Plains
1 Arcane Sanctum
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Disenchant
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Standard:
Modern:
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14