I was testing a lil bit during the last week. I did remember WHY I decided to maximize on Ballistas in the past. Had harsh times without them against Humans, Affinity and Infect.
Welp, there isn't much to say. It's definitely one of our worst match-ups. He opens with Vial three games out of three, and while I'm able to Repeal them some times, Wurmcoils get pathed and I'm unable to complete Tron fast. I won game two thanks to chaining removals EOT, baiting his counterspells and resolving Ugin in my turn.
Round2 // Hardened Scales Affinity 2-1
I'm on the play, as soon as I see turn one Forest into Stirrings I set Chalice#1, expecting Green Tron or HS Affinity. It's the second, I cut him short of 11-14 cards, proceed to Remand most of his stuff and cast Wurmcoil on turn six, followed by another Wurmcoil. Game two he goes Scales into Overseer into double Walker. I use my Repeals to get some time, kill his stuff, cast Ballista for 4 to kill the tokens, Mindslaver-lock him.
Round3 // Jeskai Control 2-0
Game one I play G-Tron. Tower into Map, Mine into trigger for Power Plant, I start casting Wurmcoils and giant Ballistas. He doesn't have enough interaction. Game two, he went for Stony Silence turn two. I untap and play Chalice#1, invalidating 12+ of his spells and the powerful EOT-Snap/cantrip engine. At a certain point he has to tap out in attempt to cast Teferi, I let him resolve, he minus to break my Chalice. I untap, complete Tron, play another Chalice, resolve a Ugin, plus it on Teferi, game over.
Round 4 // Affinity 2-0
The "normal" version, this time. While Chalice on one is way less effective (and Chalice on two is really slow) my Ballista are extremely more dangerous for him, here. I, indeed, win both games by resolving a turn two Ballista and pinging his Plated creature, pumping it the next turn with Tron to seal the deal. He doesn't have Galvanic Blast, and that's it.
Round 5 // Dredge 2-1
I won the first game, being on the play and having turn three Wurmcoil to compensate for the 3 Creeping Chill he found in the first 20 cards of his deck. I lose the second quickly, keeping a hand without hate but reasonable, with Tron (2 lands + Map, Ugin and some bounce spells. He Claims my Map on turn one, and I'll never draw the third Urza land. I won game three on the back of double Surgical into huge Ballista, with Remand open for his Conflagrate.
Semifinal // Hollow One 1-2
I won the first after casting a Chalice on one, chaining Repeal and Rift on his threats, casting a Wurmcoil. Game2&3 he has good Burning Inquiry into double Hollow One (twice), and in game three I'm left without lands to play. He steamrolls me. Happens.
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I noticed there were lots of BGx, Shadows and Phoenixes in the room. Good thing, they are neutral to good matchups for us. Aside from Humans&Spirits (bad matchups, although definitely winnable) and grave strategies such as Dredge and Hollow One (which are very draw-dependent, hard to tell how the games are going to go) the field seems to be in a good position for U Tron at the moment. I had some sessions of testing against G-Tron, Phoenixes, Burn, Valakut, and the deck is responding well. I'm glad to have confirmed that. I was afraid the metagame became too fast for it.
I think Karn, The Great Creator is definitely good. I've been trying him out on xmage beta and with proxies. I do think he will earn a spot in the list. I still cannot decide if the more traditional style or going full control is better with him. both versions obviously have their own reasons for being good against certain archetypes and being poor against others.
I don't own any Chalice of the void otherwise I would find room for at least 3 of them in the 75 (probably in the main, potentially as replacements for the Relics). New Karn does feel great as a win condition or a way to stablize the game even if he were to die. He feels very strong but is definitely an embarrassing topdeck in the early game, if you don't have tron mana he really doesn't do much. After 6 mana or if you feel you have two turns (for O stone) he feels extremely strong.
I think the 75 of this list probably needs some more tuning but it definitely feels strong. I'm curious to see what the more accomplished U tron players will do with the new Karn, if he is even played at all.
My idea is that Karn, Scion of Urza is a better four drop compared to the new Karn. If we're up for a grindy game, Scion performs the best. If we're against aggressive strategies, at least it makes blockers. It seems like NewKarn is better AGAINST us than FOR us.
Relic in the main is something I already tried, in the past (in the slots of Chalice, more so). I didn't dislike them, and I actually considered the idea of playing some maindeck, but Chalice is definitely a stronger card overall.
I already tried Warping Wail in the past. My issue with it is that, contrary to the looks, it's a specific card instead of a flexible one. If you want a removal, is one of the worst removals you can play (with some exceptions, I know, but still...), if you want a counter, it doesn't do much unless you're facing a very specific opponent (example: Scapeshift).
Look at the matchups: if you're up against Hollow One, it does counter their sorcery cards (which are cc1, though) but it doesn't deal with his Hollow Ones or Gurmag Anglers, which is the real concern. If you're up against Tron... it does pretty much nothing, having a one-time Talisman instead of a useful card isn't a good exchange. Chalices take care of Stirrings, is it here just for Scryings? If you're facing things such as Storm, Past in Flames is truly the last problem we have (although it does kill Baral, so it's certainly a decent spell here). If we're against Control of any sort, we don't care about any of the modes. Against Burn it may counter a Spike or a Rift, but that's honestly something we aren't interested in most of the time. And I could go on forever.
It's an interesting spell when we're paired against stuff such as Infect, Affinity, Humans. But then, Ballista is MILES better against these archetipes, there is no way out. The ability to cast it on turn two against a resolved Thalia is huge, and once you have Tron you basically win on the spot.
Biggest difference between Karn, Scion of Urza and new Karn is that Sion of Urza provides a way to get to tron as well as being good once we have it. The Great Creator is more like a fancy (very fancy) and weird fabricate. That is not really true, my point is that he most likely wont help us hit land drops. The card advantage is very limited in the sense that we need to have the cards in our sideboard. We really don't want to put darksteel citadel in our sideboard, or maps or talismans for that matter. I'm not sure he's good in our deck, I think I will have to try him out first.
I'm not trying him as a value engine but more as a win condition. I'm trying him as basically a mindslaver in our deck. Obviously not very good the turn we can cast it, but if we can cast and crack the game usually ends. I see this Karn in that kind of slot in the deck. Most games that grind we end up winning anyway, regardless of having a Karn, Scion of Urza or other walker. I'm trying him out now, but I never had issues in a long game before playing him.
I do think it is right to probably only play 1 Karn, the Great Creator because he does not got us into the end game. He doesn't stabilize a board state like oblivion stone or wurmcoil engine, but can win a game pretty quickly. He might end up being a win more rather than a card that actually helps us win games more consistently, but it is too early to tell.
For example in matchups like ad nauseum, scapeshift, grishoalbrand, living end (and other versions playing 0-mana sorcery spells) or indeed izzet phoenix or dredge, Ballista is just very mediocre
To be honest, I don't think you're analyzing the card the right way.
Putting aside the fact that Ballista is an artifact (very relevant), Ballista is, like, a better card against the 90% of the field. Obviously there are matchups where it doesn't shine. Even in those matchups, anyway, it's WAY BETTER to cast Ballista on two mana, turn two, in order to have a critter, instead of tapping out for things such as Wurmcoil later in the game. I won plenty of games like this, and I actually don't side Ballista out against the decks you mentioned.
Against Dredge & Phoenix, Ballista is a great card. Not a "middle to meh", just a great card. Miles away from Warping Wail.
Hello everybody, long time reader of this forum!
I've been playing this deck for 4 years now and I think the "shoktroopa-style" toolbox decklist is very strong and one of the best positioned in the meta I've ever tried (and also a blast to play).
I've decided to share my thoughts about this new spoiler season because Karn, the great creator is undoubtedly a spicy one for us.
As soon as the card was spoiled I started brewing but results weren't good so I switched my way of thinking the card and arrived at this list.
This list is very toolboxy and benefits fron Karn as a finisher and as a tutor (I 've moved the second mindslaver to SB and cut Treasure mage for this reason) but doesn't rely heavily on it and has performed better than my previous versions. 2 copies are heavy on the 4-drop zone and I don't see myself cutting Karn, scion of urza anytime soon because has another role, but I can say that I'm never disappointed when I draw our new silver golem. Being able to tutor for a situational batterskull, crucible or tormod without wasting MB space is obviously priceless.
Especially warping wail and dismember mainboard are cool interactions with opponents and make a good mix with planeswalkers.
Sideboard is obviously still experimental but I've founded mycosynth lattice to be often too mana intensive to work and only one karn makes it difficult to use it. I'd like to try blast zone but i really don't know what to cut.
I read with pleasure this forum very often, especially structured posts like the ones from barrin_master_wizard and I hope to get advices!
I wasn't arguing against your choice of playing Warping Wail, by the way. I think it's a reasonable card, that I won't play for the reasons I alredy provided. I was mostly interested in showing how Walking Ballista wasn't a 'worse' choice in many of the situations you pictured. Anyway, Ballista is great against Dredge cause if you complete Tron but have no hate, no Ugin nor Slaver-lock online, it basically chumps and kills everything it comes at you. Against Phoenixes it, indeed, kills them istant speed if you can't prevent them from coming into play, and Thing in the Ice is easily answered by one of our bounce spells.
@new_Karn
Playing one Karn and occupying several slots in the sideboard just because of that is kinda silly, simply put.
@Blast_Zone
I believe we have to cut one colorless land in order to make space for it (and both Tron lands + Fields are better) OR a nonland card. Playing 25 lands is fine. My problem with it is: another slow card meant to destroy permanents? Is tutorable, okay, but it goes under land hate and it doesn't provide a quick effect such as Explosives.
It's a minor benefit, for sure. My point is: if you want to play Karn, the Great Creator you also have to dedicate some slots to him in your sideboard. If you're playing a single copy, it seems a waste of slots. If you're playing him in multiples... well, he isn't a good card to cast in the early game.
I'm more interested in Blast Zone. I fear it's definitely too slow for us, though. Maybe in Amulet Titan.
i think 1 blast zone maindeck is powerful. Let us resolve Detention Sphere, Shadow,Aggro like Elf, Aether vial, Humans
Given the fact I will certainly try one, being tutorable by either Map or Tolaria.
It doesn't do anything until turn four, or until turn five if we want to blow up something more relevant than cc1. It doesn't seem that powerful, to be honest, for the same reason Ratchet Bomb isn't.
So the design of my multi Karn version (I sadly didn't manage to open for trade for any at the prerelease )
Is that I move my sideboard cards to my main deck, specifically anti-aggro and anti-graveyard cards.
Then use Karn as basically a treasure mage that can fetch a lot more than that picking up the situational win cons from my sideboard I also free up a mindslaver spot as well so I was going to go with 2. He is a win condition card that can be cast for 4 mana rather than 6+
I noted that in G-tron decks playing him that having 3 drops to fetch was popular because then with tron you can fetch and use in the same turn. Which is another angle we can take such as getting Crucible of worlds and Bottle gnomes and phyrexian metamorph
I think to use him well that the deck definitely needs a lot of sculpting around him rather than shoving into a stock list.
Played against a deck in comp league the other day who's main wincon seemed to be Karn, the Great Creator and Mycosynth Lattice. It was also running Ugin, the ineffable and seemed very focused on being faster. The only creatures I remember seeing were Wurmcoil and I THINK Ballista. It was nasty and I was not happy, but it seemed pretty powerful, maybe too powerful. It also played 1 Blast Zone but other than that it was typical U Tron stuff. Didn't seem like it was running Angel, Titan, Mindslaver or mages, but I could have just never seen them. I might want to give it a try and looking for a good list or if anyone has played around with it much yet?
Haven't posted on here in years and it has also been quite a while since I updated my Blue Tron deck. I was inspired by this set with the Karn, the Great Creator and Blast Zone. My list is currently unfinished and some of what I had versus what I want but it is very similar to yours, Cat. I'm using 2 x Karn, the Great Creator and 1 x Ugin, the Ineffable (don't have old Ugin and I think he will act as a similar card advantage engine to Karn, Scion of Urza) for planeswalkers. I don't have Walking Ballista so Hangerback Walker is sitting in that slot. Torrential Gear Hulk is in to be Snapcaster two-ish and tutorable with Treasure Mage. Don't have Gemstone Caverns but Blast Zone is filling that slot. Toolbox sideboard includes Mycosynth Lattice for tutorable lock. Maybe 1 or 2 more cards different but that is it.
There aren't a lot of people who play Modern at my LGS but maybe I can get a few to bring their decks for between draft rounds practice and see what I can do with this...
Cheers and I'm glad to be playing around with this again.
Hi, I havent posted here in years and just lurked ocasionally.
What brings me here is the topic of the new mulligan rule and its repercussions. Is it really being stablished? If yes, what are the consequences of it and how would it affect us?
The most important thing I wanna discuss is a rumor that some cards could be banned just to "safely implement" the new mulligan rule that's been tested. The rule benefits Tron decs, As a result Ancient Stirrings or Expedition Map could be banned in Modern. And because the ban wants to hit Tron specifically and because Stirrings is used in many decks other than Green Tron, rumor has it that it can actually be the Exp Map to get the banhammer.
Does our deck simply cease to exist if map happens to be banned? Is this discussion even needed and there is no need to worry? If ***** hits the fan, I know I am turning my deck into pieces for my many EDH decks but I will still wanna try to find one other blue deck to play in modern, sadly nothing seems it could even compare to piloting the U-Tron I known for years.
(no need to comment on the text's grammar, I tried ok.)
(Edit: post nº1?... something isnt right, Wth happened to this site, lmao)
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Modern: U Tron, BWTokens, W Soul Sisters, W Martyr Proc, GR Shamans, G Stompy, UW Poached Eggs,UW Emeria Control, R RDW GW Bogles, GWUTroll Worship, BGU Heartless Summoning Combo, WGRUB Endless Renewal Combo.
EDH: U Braids, Conjurer's Adept (My first),GWU Jenara, Asura of War (1vs1)BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion,GB Meren, of Clan Nel TothGW Trostanni, Selesnya Voice/Rhys, the redeemed, RB Rakdos, Lord of RiotsUWB Sen triplets (play everyones deck), Oloro, Sydri GW Sigarda enchantress W Thalia/Radiant, Archangel (casual games)U Azami, lady of scrolls, B Gisa, zombies tribal, WUBRG Horde of Notions,RW Gisela/Aurelia, R Krenko, W Nahiri/Kemba, R Daretti, G Titania/Nissa, G Freyalise/Ezuri, RBU Nekrusar, RBU Jeleva, GRBProssh, GWR Marath, GWRMayael, BW Daxos
Pauper: R RDW, GUWR PauperTron, W Weenies, GW Bogles Trolling: BW Tainted Remedy
i wuld only say: 4 tournament with u tron, 4 top8!!
Yesterday i got stream 3 times, round 5-6 and final.
I did well and i think u tron is solid deck now. I'll post my swiss tournament photo if you need.
PS: if expedition map get ban i think we need 4 chalice maindeck and we need to add more cantrip like hieroglyphic illumination,or others stuff.
I think the future can to be blue control deck with 2-3 blast zone,but i hope cloud post is in our future because i think in june can to be legal in modern.
I played my first competitive rel event (SCG IQ 69 players) with U tron in a while after taking a break.
I played a list very close to barrin's posted 5-0 with differences being 3/1 chalice split instead of 1/3 and spatials instead of warping wail
because of the meta I was expecting.
The tournament did not go well, finished 3-3 drop. The losses were to infect, no surprise, and two u/w control decks. I was a bit surprised by the control
decks because I didnt get a game off either and it didnt feel exactly close despite the chalices and it historically being a good matchup. They were playing
dovin's veto which looked good and I didnt draw the greatest but I'm can't help but feel maybe this version isn't as well positioned in the matchup as other versions. The low counters numbers is rough here and tapping out for a karn when they can play a jace or tefferi and kill your tokens is rough.
I havn't played a lot with this list, just one event, so I cant say for sure but I wanted to know what people who have played this version have felt about that matchup.
For completeness, wins were against two g/w company decks and g-tron (chalice is a good card lol).
Thank you for the welcome and thank you also for the very well rounded answers of the modern state.
My worries now seem unreasonable and uncalled for after the facts. I can blame 3 things: my impulsion to jump online to discuss, the echo chamber that is my local meta's bias towards the green tron's turn 3 Karn and also the fact that I generally imagine and try to prepare myself for the worst of situations possible. Panic aside now I look forward for Modern Horizons and what changes to the format the new rules may bring if implemented.
I thought of a Tronless/Mapless verion before although not too deep. I might perhaps would have considered 2 Academy ruins, some Cryptic command and perhaps I would play the deck around grand architect. I'd keep thirst, chalices, maybe consider relic of progenitus main in this meta, and I'd be considerering splashing white just more SB options, wraths and paths that might come in handy even if just to ramp myself or idk.
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Modern: U Tron, BWTokens, W Soul Sisters, W Martyr Proc, GR Shamans, G Stompy, UW Poached Eggs,UW Emeria Control, R RDW GW Bogles, GWUTroll Worship, BGU Heartless Summoning Combo, WGRUB Endless Renewal Combo.
EDH: U Braids, Conjurer's Adept (My first),GWU Jenara, Asura of War (1vs1)BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion,GB Meren, of Clan Nel TothGW Trostanni, Selesnya Voice/Rhys, the redeemed, RB Rakdos, Lord of RiotsUWB Sen triplets (play everyones deck), Oloro, Sydri GW Sigarda enchantress W Thalia/Radiant, Archangel (casual games)U Azami, lady of scrolls, B Gisa, zombies tribal, WUBRG Horde of Notions,RW Gisela/Aurelia, R Krenko, W Nahiri/Kemba, R Daretti, G Titania/Nissa, G Freyalise/Ezuri, RBU Nekrusar, RBU Jeleva, GRBProssh, GWR Marath, GWRMayael, BW Daxos
Pauper: R RDW, GUWR PauperTron, W Weenies, GW Bogles Trolling: BW Tainted Remedy
I played with karn tonight and was surprised at how many lines it gave me as i already had extra copies of the one ofs in my sideboard.
Match 1 I actually lattice locked him but he was stuck on 2 lands for most of the game so it didnt matter anyway. match 2 i never drew karn match 3 game 1 i drew karn played it and got chalice from the board to stop 8 rack easy even though i punted while he had a mutavault and put karn to one to search up another card which was crucible. match 4 i never drew karn
there was many other lines i could have taken at any point in the game overall i like the options he gives the versions of the deck with one ofs and trinket mages. any other karn stories tonight
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I ran this in a proxy tournament, ending up 4-2.
1x Academy Ruins
2x Field of Ruin
7x Island
1x River of Tears
1x Tolaria West
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
3x Walking Ballista
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (18)
4x Condescend
4x Remand
2x Cyclonic Rift
4x Repeal
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Round1 // Bant Spirits 1-2
Welp, there isn't much to say. It's definitely one of our worst match-ups. He opens with Vial three games out of three, and while I'm able to Repeal them some times, Wurmcoils get pathed and I'm unable to complete Tron fast. I won game two thanks to chaining removals EOT, baiting his counterspells and resolving Ugin in my turn.
Round2 // Hardened Scales Affinity 2-1
I'm on the play, as soon as I see turn one Forest into Stirrings I set Chalice#1, expecting Green Tron or HS Affinity. It's the second, I cut him short of 11-14 cards, proceed to Remand most of his stuff and cast Wurmcoil on turn six, followed by another Wurmcoil. Game two he goes Scales into Overseer into double Walker. I use my Repeals to get some time, kill his stuff, cast Ballista for 4 to kill the tokens, Mindslaver-lock him.
Round3 // Jeskai Control 2-0
Game one I play G-Tron. Tower into Map, Mine into trigger for Power Plant, I start casting Wurmcoils and giant Ballistas. He doesn't have enough interaction. Game two, he went for Stony Silence turn two. I untap and play Chalice#1, invalidating 12+ of his spells and the powerful EOT-Snap/cantrip engine. At a certain point he has to tap out in attempt to cast Teferi, I let him resolve, he minus to break my Chalice. I untap, complete Tron, play another Chalice, resolve a Ugin, plus it on Teferi, game over.
Round 4 // Affinity 2-0
The "normal" version, this time. While Chalice on one is way less effective (and Chalice on two is really slow) my Ballista are extremely more dangerous for him, here. I, indeed, win both games by resolving a turn two Ballista and pinging his Plated creature, pumping it the next turn with Tron to seal the deal. He doesn't have Galvanic Blast, and that's it.
Round 5 // Dredge 2-1
I won the first game, being on the play and having turn three Wurmcoil to compensate for the 3 Creeping Chill he found in the first 20 cards of his deck. I lose the second quickly, keeping a hand without hate but reasonable, with Tron (2 lands + Map, Ugin and some bounce spells. He Claims my Map on turn one, and I'll never draw the third Urza land. I won game three on the back of double Surgical into huge Ballista, with Remand open for his Conflagrate.
Semifinal // Hollow One 1-2
I won the first after casting a Chalice on one, chaining Repeal and Rift on his threats, casting a Wurmcoil. Game2&3 he has good Burning Inquiry into double Hollow One (twice), and in game three I'm left without lands to play. He steamrolls me. Happens.
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I noticed there were lots of BGx, Shadows and Phoenixes in the room. Good thing, they are neutral to good matchups for us. Aside from Humans&Spirits (bad matchups, although definitely winnable) and grave strategies such as Dredge and Hollow One (which are very draw-dependent, hard to tell how the games are going to go) the field seems to be in a good position for U Tron at the moment. I had some sessions of testing against G-Tron, Phoenixes, Burn, Valakut, and the deck is responding well. I'm glad to have confirmed that. I was afraid the metagame became too fast for it.
I've been trying
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
6 Island
2 River of Tears
2 Field of Ruin
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures (5)
3 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts(9)
4 Expedition Map
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
4 Condescend
4 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Remand
2 Dismember
4 Thirst For Knowledge
PlanesWalkers (4)
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Karn, The Great Creator
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Negate
2 Spreading Seas
4 Spatial Contortion
1 Dismember
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine
I don't own any Chalice of the void otherwise I would find room for at least 3 of them in the 75 (probably in the main, potentially as replacements for the Relics). New Karn does feel great as a win condition or a way to stablize the game even if he were to die. He feels very strong but is definitely an embarrassing topdeck in the early game, if you don't have tron mana he really doesn't do much. After 6 mana or if you feel you have two turns (for O stone) he feels extremely strong.
I think the 75 of this list probably needs some more tuning but it definitely feels strong. I'm curious to see what the more accomplished U tron players will do with the new Karn, if he is even played at all.
Relic in the main is something I already tried, in the past (in the slots of Chalice, more so). I didn't dislike them, and I actually considered the idea of playing some maindeck, but Chalice is definitely a stronger card overall.
Look at the matchups: if you're up against Hollow One, it does counter their sorcery cards (which are cc1, though) but it doesn't deal with his Hollow Ones or Gurmag Anglers, which is the real concern. If you're up against Tron... it does pretty much nothing, having a one-time Talisman instead of a useful card isn't a good exchange. Chalices take care of Stirrings, is it here just for Scryings? If you're facing things such as Storm, Past in Flames is truly the last problem we have (although it does kill Baral, so it's certainly a decent spell here). If we're against Control of any sort, we don't care about any of the modes. Against Burn it may counter a Spike or a Rift, but that's honestly something we aren't interested in most of the time. And I could go on forever.
It's an interesting spell when we're paired against stuff such as Infect, Affinity, Humans. But then, Ballista is MILES better against these archetipes, there is no way out. The ability to cast it on turn two against a resolved Thalia is huge, and once you have Tron you basically win on the spot.
I'm not trying him as a value engine but more as a win condition. I'm trying him as basically a mindslaver in our deck. Obviously not very good the turn we can cast it, but if we can cast and crack the game usually ends. I see this Karn in that kind of slot in the deck. Most games that grind we end up winning anyway, regardless of having a Karn, Scion of Urza or other walker. I'm trying him out now, but I never had issues in a long game before playing him.
I do think it is right to probably only play 1 Karn, the Great Creator because he does not got us into the end game. He doesn't stabilize a board state like oblivion stone or wurmcoil engine, but can win a game pretty quickly. He might end up being a win more rather than a card that actually helps us win games more consistently, but it is too early to tell.
To be honest, I don't think you're analyzing the card the right way.
Putting aside the fact that Ballista is an artifact (very relevant), Ballista is, like, a better card against the 90% of the field. Obviously there are matchups where it doesn't shine. Even in those matchups, anyway, it's WAY BETTER to cast Ballista on two mana, turn two, in order to have a critter, instead of tapping out for things such as Wurmcoil later in the game. I won plenty of games like this, and I actually don't side Ballista out against the decks you mentioned.
Against Dredge & Phoenix, Ballista is a great card. Not a "middle to meh", just a great card. Miles away from Warping Wail.
I've been playing this deck for 4 years now and I think the "shoktroopa-style" toolbox decklist is very strong and one of the best positioned in the meta I've ever tried (and also a blast to play).
I've decided to share my thoughts about this new spoiler season because Karn, the great creator is undoubtedly a spicy one for us.
As soon as the card was spoiled I started brewing but results weren't good so I switched my way of thinking the card and arrived at this list.
// 10 Artifact
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Expedition Map
1 Mindslaver
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tormod's Crypt
// 6 Creature
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Walking Ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
// 17 Instant
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Remand
3 Repeal
4 Condescend
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Academy Ruins
5 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 River of Tears
1 Field of Ruin
1 Tectonic Edge
// 3 Planeswalker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mindslaver
1 Walking Ballista
2 Spreading Seas
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
This list is very toolboxy and benefits fron Karn as a finisher and as a tutor (I 've moved the second mindslaver to SB and cut Treasure mage for this reason) but doesn't rely heavily on it and has performed better than my previous versions. 2 copies are heavy on the 4-drop zone and I don't see myself cutting Karn, scion of urza anytime soon because has another role, but I can say that I'm never disappointed when I draw our new silver golem. Being able to tutor for a situational batterskull, crucible or tormod without wasting MB space is obviously priceless.
Especially warping wail and dismember mainboard are cool interactions with opponents and make a good mix with planeswalkers.
Sideboard is obviously still experimental but I've founded mycosynth lattice to be often too mana intensive to work and only one karn makes it difficult to use it. I'd like to try blast zone but i really don't know what to cut.
I read with pleasure this forum very often, especially structured posts like the ones from barrin_master_wizard and I hope to get advices!
I wasn't arguing against your choice of playing Warping Wail, by the way. I think it's a reasonable card, that I won't play for the reasons I alredy provided. I was mostly interested in showing how Walking Ballista wasn't a 'worse' choice in many of the situations you pictured. Anyway, Ballista is great against Dredge cause if you complete Tron but have no hate, no Ugin nor Slaver-lock online, it basically chumps and kills everything it comes at you. Against Phoenixes it, indeed, kills them istant speed if you can't prevent them from coming into play, and Thing in the Ice is easily answered by one of our bounce spells.
@new_Karn
Playing one Karn and occupying several slots in the sideboard just because of that is kinda silly, simply put.
@Blast_Zone
I believe we have to cut one colorless land in order to make space for it (and both Tron lands + Fields are better) OR a nonland card. Playing 25 lands is fine. My problem with it is: another slow card meant to destroy permanents? Is tutorable, okay, but it goes under land hate and it doesn't provide a quick effect such as Explosives.
I'm more interested in Blast Zone. I fear it's definitely too slow for us, though. Maybe in Amulet Titan.
Given the fact I will certainly try one, being tutorable by either Map or Tolaria.
It doesn't do anything until turn four, or until turn five if we want to blow up something more relevant than cc1. It doesn't seem that powerful, to be honest, for the same reason Ratchet Bomb isn't.
Is that I move my sideboard cards to my main deck, specifically anti-aggro and anti-graveyard cards.
Then use Karn as basically a treasure mage that can fetch a lot more than that picking up the situational win cons from my sideboard I also free up a mindslaver spot as well so I was going to go with 2. He is a win condition card that can be cast for 4 mana rather than 6+
I noted that in G-tron decks playing him that having 3 drops to fetch was popular because then with tron you can fetch and use in the same turn. Which is another angle we can take such as getting Crucible of worlds and Bottle gnomes and phyrexian metamorph
I think to use him well that the deck definitely needs a lot of sculpting around him rather than shoving into a stock list.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Haven't posted on here in years and it has also been quite a while since I updated my Blue Tron deck. I was inspired by this set with the Karn, the Great Creator and Blast Zone. My list is currently unfinished and some of what I had versus what I want but it is very similar to yours, Cat. I'm using 2 x Karn, the Great Creator and 1 x Ugin, the Ineffable (don't have old Ugin and I think he will act as a similar card advantage engine to Karn, Scion of Urza) for planeswalkers. I don't have Walking Ballista so Hangerback Walker is sitting in that slot. Torrential Gear Hulk is in to be Snapcaster two-ish and tutorable with Treasure Mage. Don't have Gemstone Caverns but Blast Zone is filling that slot. Toolbox sideboard includes Mycosynth Lattice for tutorable lock. Maybe 1 or 2 more cards different but that is it.
There aren't a lot of people who play Modern at my LGS but maybe I can get a few to bring their decks for between draft rounds practice and see what I can do with this...
Cheers and I'm glad to be playing around with this again.
What brings me here is the topic of the new mulligan rule and its repercussions. Is it really being stablished? If yes, what are the consequences of it and how would it affect us?
The most important thing I wanna discuss is a rumor that some cards could be banned just to "safely implement" the new mulligan rule that's been tested. The rule benefits Tron decs, As a result Ancient Stirrings or Expedition Map could be banned in Modern. And because the ban wants to hit Tron specifically and because Stirrings is used in many decks other than Green Tron, rumor has it that it can actually be the Exp Map to get the banhammer.
Does our deck simply cease to exist if map happens to be banned? Is this discussion even needed and there is no need to worry? If ***** hits the fan, I know I am turning my deck into pieces for my many EDH decks but I will still wanna try to find one other blue deck to play in modern, sadly nothing seems it could even compare to piloting the U-Tron I known for years.
(no need to comment on the text's grammar, I tried ok.)
(Edit: post nº1?... something isnt right, Wth happened to this site, lmao)
EDH: U Braids, Conjurer's Adept (My first),GWU Jenara, Asura of War (1vs1)BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion,GB Meren, of Clan Nel TothGW Trostanni, Selesnya Voice/Rhys, the redeemed, RB Rakdos, Lord of RiotsUWB Sen triplets (play everyones deck), Oloro, Sydri GW Sigarda enchantress W Thalia/Radiant, Archangel (casual games)U Azami, lady of scrolls, B Gisa, zombies tribal, WUBRG Horde of Notions,RW Gisela/Aurelia, R Krenko, W Nahiri/Kemba, R Daretti, G Titania/Nissa, G Freyalise/Ezuri, RBU Nekrusar, RBU Jeleva, GRBProssh, GWR Marath, GWRMayael, BW Daxos
Pauper: R RDW, GUWR PauperTron, W Weenies, GW Bogles Trolling: BW Tainted Remedy
Yesterday i got stream 3 times, round 5-6 and final.
I did well and i think u tron is solid deck now. I'll post my swiss tournament photo if you need.
PS: if expedition map get ban i think we need 4 chalice maindeck and we need to add more cantrip like hieroglyphic illumination,or others stuff.
I think the future can to be blue control deck with 2-3 blast zone,but i hope cloud post is in our future because i think in june can to be legal in modern.
I played a list very close to barrin's posted 5-0 with differences being 3/1 chalice split instead of 1/3 and spatials instead of warping wail
because of the meta I was expecting.
The tournament did not go well, finished 3-3 drop. The losses were to infect, no surprise, and two u/w control decks. I was a bit surprised by the control
decks because I didnt get a game off either and it didnt feel exactly close despite the chalices and it historically being a good matchup. They were playing
dovin's veto which looked good and I didnt draw the greatest but I'm can't help but feel maybe this version isn't as well positioned in the matchup as other versions. The low counters numbers is rough here and tapping out for a karn when they can play a jace or tefferi and kill your tokens is rough.
I havn't played a lot with this list, just one event, so I cant say for sure but I wanted to know what people who have played this version have felt about that matchup.
For completeness, wins were against two g/w company decks and g-tron (chalice is a good card lol).
My worries now seem unreasonable and uncalled for after the facts. I can blame 3 things: my impulsion to jump online to discuss, the echo chamber that is my local meta's bias towards the green tron's turn 3 Karn and also the fact that I generally imagine and try to prepare myself for the worst of situations possible. Panic aside now I look forward for Modern Horizons and what changes to the format the new rules may bring if implemented.
I thought of a Tronless/Mapless verion before although not too deep. I might perhaps would have considered 2 Academy ruins, some Cryptic command and perhaps I would play the deck around grand architect. I'd keep thirst, chalices, maybe consider relic of progenitus main in this meta, and I'd be considerering splashing white just more SB options, wraths and paths that might come in handy even if just to ramp myself or idk.
EDH: U Braids, Conjurer's Adept (My first),GWU Jenara, Asura of War (1vs1)BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion,GB Meren, of Clan Nel TothGW Trostanni, Selesnya Voice/Rhys, the redeemed, RB Rakdos, Lord of RiotsUWB Sen triplets (play everyones deck), Oloro, Sydri GW Sigarda enchantress W Thalia/Radiant, Archangel (casual games)U Azami, lady of scrolls, B Gisa, zombies tribal, WUBRG Horde of Notions,RW Gisela/Aurelia, R Krenko, W Nahiri/Kemba, R Daretti, G Titania/Nissa, G Freyalise/Ezuri, RBU Nekrusar, RBU Jeleva, GRBProssh, GWR Marath, GWRMayael, BW Daxos
Pauper: R RDW, GUWR PauperTron, W Weenies, GW Bogles Trolling: BW Tainted Remedy
Match 1 I actually lattice locked him but he was stuck on 2 lands for most of the game so it didnt matter anyway.
match 2 i never drew karn
match 3 game 1 i drew karn played it and got chalice from the board to stop 8 rack easy even though i punted while he had a mutavault and put karn to one to search up another card which was crucible.
match 4 i never drew karn
there was many other lines i could have taken at any point in the game overall i like the options he gives the versions of the deck with one ofs and trinket mages. any other karn stories tonight