MTG Salvation

Does limiting yourself to 4 talismans make sense? When juding a 4x card in a deck I like to say "Would I run 5 Expedition Maps given the chance? Maybe 6 or 7?" On the flip side are we just jamming 4 because it looks clean, but in reality 2 or 3 is better?

If you only have one ballista I reccomend trinket mage as a pseudo-second copy that can also get map for academy ruins to complete mindslaver lock.

I think the only reason to play solemns and talismans is to keep artifact count up for thirst. Personally I have not found this necessary and I would rather maindeck two chalice and discard to thirst when they suck.

I also agree that double blue can be tricky so ive been on one snapcaster and one gearhulk as my only "double blue" spells.

I also dont get talismans. My turn two is remand, condescend, or pop map most of the time. Even if I dont have the counter presenting two open mana to the opponent makes them think. You could pierce/snare/dismember off a talisman I guess but ive never found going ahead one mana on turn two to be meaningful. Im either tronning up turn four and slamming a threat or patiently waiting for the late game. One mana faster doesnt seem like it moves the needle from loss to victory very often.

We know teferi fits perfectly in UW and UWR control, so I think why not give U tron a try.
I have some success in local small event and FNM with teferi.
The single white is not a issue and he wins me games.
Came down, draw card and untap tron lands for backup counters is just great.
I will take this list to pptq this weekend and see how it goes.
Any suggestions are very welcome.

Warping manabase for one card does not seem like a winning move to me. I would be playing a second ugin over teferi if I wanted another walker too, no questions asked.

Or perhaps nissa steward of elements if I was trying to be cute (lack of a ug talisman hurts but just play simic signet instead). At least you could slam a huge nissa and swing for twenty in the air sometimes to win on the spot, otherwise scry two is pretty solid.

Again - I dont think another walker is needed and itd be ugin number two if it was... but for style points id be going for nissa I think.

Hey guys, I've been lurking this thread for quite some time. I've always been interested in starting to play at FNM now that I've gotten the hang of the game. I've been deck testing a lot and had a pretty good streak playing this deck a few weeks back on Xmage. Unfortunately, it seems that my luck streak wore off and I'm here to post some of my concerns and what I noticed.

For starters, I feel that I don't draw the correct counters at the right time. Sometimes I'll end up with my repeals when I need remands, this is especially annoying with creatures that have hexproof. I don't think there's much of a solution to this but I decided to subtract a Thirst for Knowledge, as I found that card more often than not just sitting in my hand in the very important early game. Late game I seem to get a lot of the stuff I need but the problem is surviving that long. Since a lot of my cards thin out the deck (Mages, Solemn Simulacrum, Field of Ruin, Maps, Thirst, Remand and Repeal) I get some pretty good draws.

I really enjoy Trinket Mage and Treasure Mage, they find the specific win condition I need at the time and have saved me since they are additionally a chump blocker when I need them. Trinket Mage may be subbed out for something since I do own 2 Ballistas and 2 Chalices (although, even with trinket I find that I get my chalices often way too late). Sometimes I just feel like I don't even know how to use Chalice.

I've noticed that some games strongly rely on Ballista. Ballista can also be a pretty clunky but sometimes very useful win-con when paired with Academy Ruins where you can just burn your opponent if you are swimming in tron mana.

My Sideboard is a WIP, since I haven't gone to an FNM yet I have stuff from my online experience. I like Tormod's Crypt in case I need to chalice for 1, and since black is usually the deck with graveyard manipulation, cards like Thoughtsieze, Inquisition, and Duress are cards that can result in an instant loss. Blink of an Eye is there basically just to get rid of Stony Silence and Blood Moon. Currently using it as a substitute since Commit // Memory is a little costly during the early game.

I don't understand some choices I've been seeing in peoples decks, especially when it comes to modifying manabases just to run Engineered Explosives. The worst offender I think is Gemstone Caverns. You should NEVER EVER want to go second in any card game, and you have such a slim chance of actually using it instead of it being a dead card when you draw it. River of Tears gimps your options whenever you play a land, and relying on one talisman to produce white mana gives you such a slim chance of actually using it. and other non-basic lands end up screwing you over since Blood Moon is already a huge threat to this deck. I'd rather just use an oblivion stone since it doesn't require you to gimp yourself just to use it even if it's technically slower and not searchable.



I'm considering taking out talismans because the ramp is nice but sometimes talisman is completely dead in the early game. It's very gimmicky but I feel a little better when I'm using talismans to pay for dismember. Talisman also bothers me since it's not at all searchable by my Mages.

Quote from BadMcFadden »

I also dont get talismans. My turn two is remand, condescend, or pop map most of the time. Even if I dont have the counter presenting two open mana to the opponent makes them think. You could pierce/snare/dismember off a talisman I guess but ive never found going ahead one mana on turn two to be meaningful. Im either tronning up turn four and slamming a threat or patiently waiting for the late game. One mana faster doesnt seem like it moves the needle from loss to victory very often.

You definitely want to run all 4 condescend and all 4 thirst, they are some of the best cards in the deck. They help smooth draws and gameplan extraordinarily well. 22 lands even with 2 talismans is kind of low 23 is basically the min for the deck. I play 25 sometimes boarding into 26. board is okay? i'd sub spatial contortion for blink of an eye. Creature decks are our worst matchups. River of Tears is a fine option as it doesn't get hit by choke/boil. the black also has the rare benefit of casting dismember for the mana rather than life and EE on 2. (even EE on 0 and 1 hurts a fair bit of decks). Bloodmoon is rarely a threat to this deck, I only counter it when my blue sources aren't islands. I just repeal or Rift it later in the game and drown in value. Like Gx tron if they don't back up hate cards with threats its not an issue. I've won with a Rest in Peace, Stony Silence, and Damping Sphere on the board.

Yeah about gemstone caverns.... I think you might want to have in your opener on the draw. MIGHT change your mind.

I think the idea with gemstone caverns is the opportunity cost is very low. Personally I don't play them because I never found starting with one actually helped much unless I had chalice in a relevant match and didn't get thoughtseized. There were more games I wished it was an island than games where I got to win the die roll that I lost - let alone go first and have it obviously matter.

I think my main gripe with Gemstone Caverns is that you basically always need to sacrifice going first just encase you do get that 1 in 5 chance. I have tried Gemstone Caverns before and I still don't think UTron is consistent enough to be really worth it.
I think a really powerful -1 turn play would involve a spell pierce but I can't think of many non-creature 1 drops that would be mandatory nip in the bud right away. but the chances just get smaller and smaller the more cards you want in your opening hand.
Additionally, Gemstone is a legendary land meaning the second gemstone will 99.99% be a dead draw.

I'm testing out a few things and I'll throw the two copies back in now for online testing. I took SwissRoll's advice simply because I've been using remand and repeal more for draw power than useful countering, I think I undervalued the scry 2. I'm also experimenting not having platinum angel since it seems to die to path to exile quite often.

hi, can anyone recommend other streamers I can learn from aside from pierakor? I heard shoktroopa has his streams but i can't seem to find it anywhere, or that his channel doesn't have videos currently? thank you in advance everyone.

https://www.twitch.tv/kharniverous is Shok's stream.

Quote from Duke Gankem »

I think my main gripe with Gemstone Caverns is that you basically always need to sacrifice going first just encase you do get that 1 in 5 chance. I have tried Gemstone Caverns before and I still don't think UTron is consistent enough to be really worth it.
I think a really powerful -1 turn play would involve a spell pierce but I can't think of many non-creature 1 drops that would be mandatory nip in the bud right away. but the chances just get smaller and smaller the more cards you want in your opening hand.
Additionally, Gemstone is a legendary land meaning the second gemstone will 99.99% be a dead draw.

I'm testing out a few things and I'll throw the two copies back in now for online testing. I took SwissRoll's advice simply because I've been using remand and repeal more for draw power than useful countering, I think I undervalued the scry 2. I'm also experimenting not having platinum angel since it seems to die to path to exile quite often.

Not sure if I understood that the way you mean it, but you don‘t need to sacrifice anything. You never choose to be on the draw, but Caverns gives you a small chance to be „on the play“ (technically just a turn ahead) even though you lost the die roll. As it‘s only one land, the opportunity cost is quite low if you play 25 lands.

I only play 1 Caverns MB and add another from the side if I manage to win game 1 (given that the speed boost is necessary like in aggro matchups). If I lose the first game, Caverns just comes out and I play with 24 lands game 2.

Hmm, I never thought about siding in a second if you won the first game. Although the chances of drawing it are pretty low if you are only running one.

Not to get us off the caverns discussion, but I had a quick question for you guys about playing against UW control with 4 field of ruin and 4 spreading seas.

Back when I first picked this deck up, we used to stomp all over control decks like this, but now it’s probably my worst matchup especially since I’ve tuned my deck to better beat aggro.

Any thoughts on good SB cards - other than a big control Trump creature - or strategies in general? This is something I assume most people struggle with and I know I could use a little help. I can post my list later if anyone needs it as I’m on mobile now. Thx!

I would note that chalice on one has the highly valuable impact of disabling path to exile. Vs some decks this turns wurmcoil and angels from liabilities into unbeatable win conditions. White decks generally have teferi and detention sphere to get rid of a chalice which are sorcery speed and easier to condescend or remand effectively than a one mana path.

I am a big fan of two chalice main for reasons like this. Even when it's not crippling the opponent completely it's usually doing some work. Drawing kcommamds off your threats, blocking paths, forcing them to tutor rec sage, etc.

I think with cavern the concept is getting remand and condescend active a turn sooner, as much as a fast chalice. I don't find turn two plays that backbreaking but it could be correct to maindeckable one and side it out on the play just for the chance to interact earlier

yeah gemstone on turn 0, on the draw feels nice. But spellsnare also does a nice job on our turn 1 if we want to do something about our opponents turn 2 play. I'd rather just have another blue source than a colorless, sometimes 5color land.

@flash TKS is a great card against UW control. I run 2 negates and 2 snares as well and those cards feel great. TKS takes the paths either from their hand or getting pathed. Saving your bigger threats like Wurmcoil and Ballista. You could run a crucible of worlds to counteract their field of ruins as well.

One thing I hadn't considered with the gearhulk/commit package - commit is a fantastic out vs random mill decks. Had a guy hit me with 2 archive traps in response to a map that would put tron online, he mills memory, I already have chalice on one (suck it surgical)so I'm like cool I'll just untap and start again with tron online when I'm ready. Not a huge deal but I always liked how emrakul decks could just wipe a mill deck by getting the reshuffle.

What I don't totally love is my sideboard configuration:

3 Thought-Knot Seers (ok)
3 Spatial Contortion (ok - 2 dismember main)
2 Surgical Extraction (ok I think)
1 Crucible of Worlds (ok - neat interaction with TFK actually that I didn't think of)
1 Ghost Quarter (ok - I bring this in with crucible generally as a package - 1 FoR main)

1 Spell Snare (seems solid - could imagine playing 2 or 0 though, 1 feels odd)
1 Engineered Explosives (I didn't love this in the main so trying 1 out of board with trinket mage to help fetch)

2 Spell Pierce (not convinced these are good, havent sided them in very often tho)
1 Filigree Familiar (testing over 2nd snare, pretty sure its bad)

I think my next step is to move those 3 out for a snare, sundering titan, and something else. I find planeswalkers can be pretty griefy if they survive but I don't see anyone running pithing needle or spyglass so I guess we just plan on countering them, bouncing them, or board wiping them before they get out of control. I worry about burn too but I don't see anyone running dragon's claws or sun droplets.

This is the list I'm going to play this weekend at SCG Indy.



This version is highly inspired by Bloody. Its pretty close to one of the lists he posted, i'm just playing two supreme wills over the playset of remands. Been playing this list close to 3 weeks now (or something close to it). I only play paper so testing can be a little harder but it feels pretty solid. The extra wurmcoils and ballista stave off aggro enough for us to take control of the game. That combined with 3 maindeck dismember and 5 more removal spells in the side, our aggro matchup becomes much more even.
Most combo decks I have enough counterspells or removal for based on whether its creature or spell combo.

Here's my sideboard, if it helps:

1 Mindslaver (I run a 1/1 split and 2/0 with wurmcoil- they could be switched, still not sure)
1 Chalice (1 main)
1 Crucible
1 Tec Edge
2 TKS
3 Spatial
3 Surgical
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Negate
1 Spell Pierce

I'm not beyond playing a Needle/Spyglass, to be honest. I've felt the same way against walkers, and needle on Aether Vial is decent also. I think I'll trim a Surgical for a Needle, at least to try.

Burn is rough, but imo the best outs are chalices, spatials, and counters such as spell snare/spell pierce- our MB counters are pretty bad. Also TKS is solid.

Yeah I'd like to get more mileage out of my trinket mage so I'm interested in needle and cage or tormods crypt as sideboard options. I wasn't sure about surgical vs crypt vs cage vs relic, surgical is fast but the rest can be trinket maged. Needle conflicts with chalice on one but can be trinket maged vs spyglass at two.

Also thinking needle on field of ruin is sometimes a thing to protect academy ruins, but chalice does some work there too.

Still iffy on gearhulk due to nonbo with repeal and condescend but usually I get remand dismember thirst for some value. Makes supreme will a bit better too.

I'm trying g a nimble obstructionist in the last spot for now but I could see putting needle there and mixing surgical for tutorable Gy hate