Archfiend is still good but match up contextual, where as I think pre-board this is just overall gonna run away with more matchups. I used to find that AF was the first thing to come out against match ups like burn or some combos lists, where as zilla here is just going to help you win on turn 3-4 more often in those matches.
1 Mana colorless cycling with vig seems like it may trump Monstrous Carabid and Deadshot Minotaur outside of deadshot maybe being a sideboard option. I don't think the colorless cycling is a huge deal over hybrid, but the 3/6 vig is likely much better on board than 4/4 must attack.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems like it could be a possible slot.
I haven't played this deck, but with the new set I was thinking about it and had an idea I wanted to toss out.
Would it be reasonable to toss a Zirda, the Dawnwaker in the sideboard as a companion, just to have a speedbump to toss out if a game is going poorly, or is effectively running a 14 card sideboard too much of a cost?
Several lists I've seen already have it's companion condition met preboard and would just have to not declare it as a companion on games where they side in Evoke creatures or Leylines.
I haven't played this deck, but with the new set I was thinking about it and had an idea I wanted to toss out.
Would it be reasonable to toss a Zirda, the Dawnwaker in the sideboard as a companion, just to have a speedbump to toss out if a game is going poorly, or is effectively running a 14 card sideboard too much of a cost?
Several lists I've seen already have it's companion condition met preboard and would just have to not declare it as a companion on games where they side in Evoke creatures or Leylines.
Her reduction ability can have a non-zero effect on some of your cyclers as well. The play pattern for her would almost never be to put it out as a road block early on to stall for combo, simpily because the way the deck works you likely would rather drop fulminator or keep cycling into combo.
The place I see her being useful is more so when your opponent opens game one with a leyline or similar and you may have to resort to playing a regular big dork deck, in which case she is a serviceable option for sure. I don't think 1 SB slot is to much in that case, but I would never compromise my main 60 to squeeze her in because the utility is minimal.
1 Mana colorless cycling with vig seems like it may trump Monstrous Carabid and Deadshot Minotaur outside of deadshot maybe being a sideboard option. I don't think the colorless cycling is a huge deal over hybrid, but the 3/6 vig is likely much better on board than 4/4 must attack.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems like it could be a possible slot.
this is indeed an option. Tougher and without the drawback of attack each turn of carabid. The only major disadvantage I see here is it cannot be hardcast by jund builds of living end.
1 Mana colorless cycling with vig seems like it may trump Monstrous Carabid and Deadshot Minotaur outside of deadshot maybe being a sideboard option. I don't think the colorless cycling is a huge deal over hybrid, but the 3/6 vig is likely much better on board than 4/4 must attack.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems like it could be a possible slot.
this is indeed an option. Tougher and without the drawback of attack each turn of carabid. The only major disadvantage I see here is it cannot be hardcast by jund builds of living end.
The bigger issue with hardcasting is the increased mana cost. Getting a white source or 2 in your 60 should be minimally difficult between Fetches, Pale Recluse if you should choose, Shock lands, and the new Tricycle lands. Plus an increase in 1 mana cyclers means faster velocity to the stuff you can cast.
Overall I'm on the fence TBH. I still ran a deadshot or 2 in my lists because I wanted a critical mass of 1 mana cyclers that had flexible cycling costs. I eventually made the concession to run Horror of the Broken Lands just because of the raw power but that mono black cycling cost screwed me more than once. Between this and Godzilla the options are all over the place now but it will see an increase in CMC which we have to manage, so I cannot imagine either as a 4 of.
Eyyy, long time since I've been on here (had to make a new account couldn't recover my old one after MTG Salv switched to Twitch...) Anyways, I contributed a while back when we got Amonkhet goodies and occasionally blow the dust off LE to play it in side events at GPs. Here today in attempts to combine constructive efforts and further development of one of my favorite decks. I know there are a bunch of different sources like reddit etc. out there but check out https://www.facebook.com/groups/1916102548713468/
Pretty cool dude name Daniel that makes solid video content. I see some friendly and familiar avatars on here still like protoaddict and The Fluff (I remember you from the Mono Green Stompy primer IIRC) and a Raver if he/she is still active.
I've done some testing with Trex and here are my findings:
Assuming I keep an average hand and cycle a 1cmc cycle dude turn 1, if I tap out to cycle just the 1x Trex turn 2 that's 11x power on board alone, however I've only drawn 1x card that turn. The only way I could do any better than that is if I cycle 2x Cerodons which obviously = 12x power and I've drawn 2x cards. In the Trex scenario it's pretty poopy if they have a Path to answer the Trex vs. if I cycle 2x Cerodons they can only Path the 1st one and still have to deal with the 2nd one and w/e I cycled turn 1. NOW... this is assuming the Magic Gods grant me 2x Cerodons to cycle in my opening hand which as we know isn't always the case. Let's assume a more realistic hand like 1x Horror and 1x Cerodon turn 2. That's only 10x power on board between the two. What about just a Carabid and a Horror?... That's only 8x powerw/ no evasion amongst 2x cards. A majority of the time Trex is going to represent a better bargain in terms of mana : power ratio all in one card. The only thing that beats a turn 2 Trex is 2x Cerodons because it's 1x more power, distributes it's power between two threats, and draws 1x more card. But again overall I think the Trex represents a better more consistent value wrapped up in once card. I think of it like the Bounce lands in terms of virtual "card advantage" for our deck. You're getting the combined creature power of 2x creature cards in 1x card. It also kills your opponent twice as fast as Archfiend... but Archy can be realistically hard casted post LE though so I can't say ones "strictly" better than the other.
*With more green cards in the mix it makes Force of Vigor in the sideboard as a more tasty viable option.*
The new white 3/6 Vigilance Dino I feel is basically a replacement for Deadshot. It's pretty much better in every way except it can't be cycled post LE and doesn't synergize with FoV. It being able to cycle for 1x generic is nice because you can at least cycle it to pump up a Horror or put -1/-1 counters on things if you still use Archy.
will be trying out the 1 mana cycler 3/6 dino. Will be running him in carabid slots. Not automatically attacking is an upgrade, and this guy is 6 toughness, that's a lot of meat. The t-rex, I will first observe how people are doing with it. The flying, creature killing ability, and being able to be hardcast of the 5/4 demon is right now, still more important to me than an 11/11,
I've done some testing with Trex and here are my findings:
So I don't think your analysis is wrong but I think it's not using proper metrics. You compare cycling the Rex to cycling Cerodons and postulate which is better, but the deck is already using the maximum number of Cerodons it is allowed. No living end deck is cutting Cerodon, so it's not a choice between the 2 is it? What I'm saying is your argument is not a deck building one, it is a game state one, but in order to get to that game state you have to have included zilla in the first place. Likewise I think your analysis is incomplete unless you can quantify the value and weight the other factors at play. For instance.
Cycling one Zilla requires less color commitment than 2x ceradon or Ceradon and Horror, but 2x ceradon can work with 1 red land and one SSG, where as ZIlla requires a green land.
The gifting of trample creates some tension for if you want to cycle zilla to the yard before or after LE. There will be hands where it will be better to cycle 2x Horrors and hold zilla so that on your attack you can get +4 power and give a blocked Horror trample.
More 2 mana cyclers and higher CMCs means you may need to up your land count because you won't have velocity like a deck that only runs 1 cost cyclers, but having more lands can mean better games against some decks.
I'm just saying if you have gotten to the point where in game you are trying to decide if you should cycle Zilla or a ceradon and hope to draw another cycler, it means you have already answered the above questions to yourself.
Never would I cut Cerodon, it's the best card in the deck in terms of raw power.
I wouldn't consider my analysis complete either. I'm aware that I omitted vast aspects such as the more difficult color of green to cast. Traditional Jund color cycling LE it predominantly RB and basically splashing green for Outburst and Beast w/in.
The gifting of trample is actually an aspect I hadn't consider until now tho.
And my interest in Trex would be to purely replace Archfiend (which I don't use in my build actually. I much prefer an entirely 1x mana cycler creatures.). But now with Trex, this would be the first time I'd be playing any 2x mana cyclers.
I just wanted to spotlight an aspect such as the card advantage/Bounce Land analogy from a theory POV that it appeared no one had mentioned or considered yet in attempts to contribute to the collective analysis is all.
RE: proaddict
I just wanted to spotlight an aspect such as the card advantage/Bounce Land analogy from a theory POV that it appeared no one had mentioned or considered yet in attempts to contribute to the collective analysis is all.
Card Advantage is a strange concept with this deck, since so many of the actions you want to take in the game are card neutral/mana intensive until you flip the switch. I think card economy is actually the discussion point. By including 1 card that has the power or roughly 2 cards, you increase your threat density so that you need fewer cards to win. The difference is you decrease velocity at which you see cards in your deck. Because of that, the more 2 mana cyclers you play, realistically the more land/mana sources you are going to need to consider just because you draw into them that much less.
Now I will say that as someone who plays LE almost exclusively in Modern, I have tried several iterations of the deck and there is room for some number of 2 mana cyclers, but that is by virtue of the quality and convenience of the 1 mana guys falling off pretty sharply. I also still ran a single Pale recluse in my lists so I could keep a trim mana base, but that card is more of a tutor than a cycler in the context of the build. In an ideal world the deck would be nothing but 1 mana cyclers, and over a long enough time frame that may actually be the build as better 1 mana big guys get released. But for now, after you maximize on Ceradons, you have to consider zilla as being better on board than some of the alternatives. I think if the Vantasaur was just slightly better or cheaper/jund colors that may have actually been the end of the discussion.
The other discussion point touched on is actually mana requirements to cycle. For a long time I resisted playing any Horrors in my list because of the black requirement to cycle. My entire build was base red, and everything could be cycled for red mana. This allowed me to not have to play basic mountain in the deck since I could still cycle under a blood moon, and increased my velocity with my SSGs. Once I added Horror to the list I found myself in situations where I opened myself up to get clogged up on mana because I needed more black than I had, where even a bad cycler like deadshot would have been preferable. Eventually I landed on not running a play set of Horrors, often just 2, because the odds of me getting more than one or having to keep an awkward opener because of them was so minimal then. Zilla poses a similar question, in that you need green mana, but also since it gives you 2ish cards in value when cycled, 1G on turn 2 is far more likely than being safe to fetch/have a black source on turn 1.
With cards like waker of waves, striped riverwinder and force of negation, is there any chance we can build a blue living end version, that playes the cascade combo style instead of the as foretold/electrodominance one?
What does Force of Negation do for you in a blue list? You likely have to cascade on your own turn because blue cascades are not great, best being Ardent Plea. Riverwinder and the whale are good but they are not so far and above the red and green options, so if you wanted to play blue I think you need to do something more like be able to discard griselbrand or whatever off of waker and reanimate that. Maybe It that betrays? Otherwise you are jumping through a lot of hoops to play similar cards.
(1) Game one the gameplan might be very linear. After boarding everything gets much more non linear. It also depends on the Version you are playing.
(2) Can't tell you all matchups but a bad matchup e.g. is E-Tron since Chalice for 0 can be hard to beat when they follow up with a TKS or t3 Tron. Fair Creature decks (except for humans or spirits) seem to be good matchups. I also like playing against fair midrange decks as Jund.
I started foiling my list because of the release of the expeditions and not having much else to do under COVID, and I realized I did not really notice any tech for this deck come out of Zendikar. The one card I thought could work was Valakut awakening but it seems more cute than anything else. Likewise Agadeem's Awakening and Kazuul's Fury could provide some utility we didn't have otherwise, but awakening is to costly and Fury may be too corner case.
Considering ruling on the new doublefaced cards, allowing casting the higher CMC side of those cards, we could at least consider some of those cards as a transformational sideboard options. I used to run kor firewalker for burn matchup in the side. Potential sub 3 CMC spells:
Aldrund, God of Cosmos - I see no use for eithe side
Cosima, God of Voyage - same
Halvar, God of Battle - i think the rules allow to cast him, even if its the backside has the lower CMC, not front side, but again, no use for it even in the UW living end variant
Kolvori, God of Kinship - either side is useless
Tolvar, God of Fury - creature side would be a winmore card, if you already have battlefield presence, artifact side useless
Egon, God of Death - Throne of Death side fills up the graveyard, but its not somethnig deckwarping
Valki, God of Lies - the only one that shows some promise i think. I could see using the Tibalt side alongside living end against control, just to overload opponents counterspells and with hope of exiling their graveyard hate and counterspells. We could in theory have 7 mana planeswalker on turn 2 with Simian Spirit Guide, and its a way to win with empty graveyard
still worth testing though..
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1 Mana colorless cycling with vig seems like it may trump Monstrous Carabid and Deadshot Minotaur outside of deadshot maybe being a sideboard option. I don't think the colorless cycling is a huge deal over hybrid, but the 3/6 vig is likely much better on board than 4/4 must attack.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems like it could be a possible slot.
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Would it be reasonable to toss a Zirda, the Dawnwaker in the sideboard as a companion, just to have a speedbump to toss out if a game is going poorly, or is effectively running a 14 card sideboard too much of a cost?
Several lists I've seen already have it's companion condition met preboard and would just have to not declare it as a companion on games where they side in Evoke creatures or Leylines.
Her reduction ability can have a non-zero effect on some of your cyclers as well. The play pattern for her would almost never be to put it out as a road block early on to stall for combo, simpily because the way the deck works you likely would rather drop fulminator or keep cycling into combo.
The place I see her being useful is more so when your opponent opens game one with a leyline or similar and you may have to resort to playing a regular big dork deck, in which case she is a serviceable option for sure. I don't think 1 SB slot is to much in that case, but I would never compromise my main 60 to squeeze her in because the utility is minimal.
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this is indeed an option. Tougher and without the drawback of attack each turn of carabid. The only major disadvantage I see here is it cannot be hardcast by jund builds of living end.
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The bigger issue with hardcasting is the increased mana cost. Getting a white source or 2 in your 60 should be minimally difficult between Fetches, Pale Recluse if you should choose, Shock lands, and the new Tricycle lands. Plus an increase in 1 mana cyclers means faster velocity to the stuff you can cast.
Overall I'm on the fence TBH. I still ran a deadshot or 2 in my lists because I wanted a critical mass of 1 mana cyclers that had flexible cycling costs. I eventually made the concession to run Horror of the Broken Lands just because of the raw power but that mono black cycling cost screwed me more than once. Between this and Godzilla the options are all over the place now but it will see an increase in CMC which we have to manage, so I cannot imagine either as a 4 of.
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Pretty cool dude name Daniel that makes solid video content. I see some friendly and familiar avatars on here still like protoaddict and The Fluff (I remember you from the Mono Green Stompy primer IIRC) and a Raver if he/she is still active.
I've done some testing with Trex and here are my findings:
Assuming I keep an average hand and cycle a 1cmc cycle dude turn 1, if I tap out to cycle just the 1x Trex turn 2 that's 11x power on board alone, however I've only drawn 1x card that turn. The only way I could do any better than that is if I cycle 2x Cerodons which obviously = 12x power and I've drawn 2x cards. In the Trex scenario it's pretty poopy if they have a Path to answer the Trex vs. if I cycle 2x Cerodons they can only Path the 1st one and still have to deal with the 2nd one and w/e I cycled turn 1. NOW... this is assuming the Magic Gods grant me 2x Cerodons to cycle in my opening hand which as we know isn't always the case. Let's assume a more realistic hand like 1x Horror and 1x Cerodon turn 2. That's only 10x power on board between the two. What about just a Carabid and a Horror?... That's only 8x powerw/ no evasion amongst 2x cards. A majority of the time Trex is going to represent a better bargain in terms of mana : power ratio all in one card. The only thing that beats a turn 2 Trex is 2x Cerodons because it's 1x more power, distributes it's power between two threats, and draws 1x more card. But again overall I think the Trex represents a better more consistent value wrapped up in once card. I think of it like the Bounce lands in terms of virtual "card advantage" for our deck. You're getting the combined creature power of 2x creature cards in 1x card. It also kills your opponent twice as fast as Archfiend... but Archy can be realistically hard casted post LE though so I can't say ones "strictly" better than the other.
*With more green cards in the mix it makes Force of Vigor in the sideboard as a more tasty viable option.*
The new white 3/6 Vigilance Dino I feel is basically a replacement for Deadshot. It's pretty much better in every way except it can't be cycled post LE and doesn't synergize with FoV. It being able to cycle for 1x generic is nice because you can at least cycle it to pump up a Horror or put -1/-1 counters on things if you still use Archy.
/end rant.
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So I don't think your analysis is wrong but I think it's not using proper metrics. You compare cycling the Rex to cycling Cerodons and postulate which is better, but the deck is already using the maximum number of Cerodons it is allowed. No living end deck is cutting Cerodon, so it's not a choice between the 2 is it? What I'm saying is your argument is not a deck building one, it is a game state one, but in order to get to that game state you have to have included zilla in the first place. Likewise I think your analysis is incomplete unless you can quantify the value and weight the other factors at play. For instance.
I'm just saying if you have gotten to the point where in game you are trying to decide if you should cycle Zilla or a ceradon and hope to draw another cycler, it means you have already answered the above questions to yourself.
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Never would I cut Cerodon, it's the best card in the deck in terms of raw power.
I wouldn't consider my analysis complete either. I'm aware that I omitted vast aspects such as the more difficult color of green to cast. Traditional Jund color cycling LE it predominantly RB and basically splashing green for Outburst and Beast w/in.
The gifting of trample is actually an aspect I hadn't consider until now tho.
And my interest in Trex would be to purely replace Archfiend (which I don't use in my build actually. I much prefer an entirely 1x mana cycler creatures.). But now with Trex, this would be the first time I'd be playing any 2x mana cyclers.
I just wanted to spotlight an aspect such as the card advantage/Bounce Land analogy from a theory POV that it appeared no one had mentioned or considered yet in attempts to contribute to the collective analysis is all.
Card Advantage is a strange concept with this deck, since so many of the actions you want to take in the game are card neutral/mana intensive until you flip the switch. I think card economy is actually the discussion point. By including 1 card that has the power or roughly 2 cards, you increase your threat density so that you need fewer cards to win. The difference is you decrease velocity at which you see cards in your deck. Because of that, the more 2 mana cyclers you play, realistically the more land/mana sources you are going to need to consider just because you draw into them that much less.
Now I will say that as someone who plays LE almost exclusively in Modern, I have tried several iterations of the deck and there is room for some number of 2 mana cyclers, but that is by virtue of the quality and convenience of the 1 mana guys falling off pretty sharply. I also still ran a single Pale recluse in my lists so I could keep a trim mana base, but that card is more of a tutor than a cycler in the context of the build. In an ideal world the deck would be nothing but 1 mana cyclers, and over a long enough time frame that may actually be the build as better 1 mana big guys get released. But for now, after you maximize on Ceradons, you have to consider zilla as being better on board than some of the alternatives. I think if the Vantasaur was just slightly better or cheaper/jund colors that may have actually been the end of the discussion.
The other discussion point touched on is actually mana requirements to cycle. For a long time I resisted playing any Horrors in my list because of the black requirement to cycle. My entire build was base red, and everything could be cycled for red mana. This allowed me to not have to play basic mountain in the deck since I could still cycle under a blood moon, and increased my velocity with my SSGs. Once I added Horror to the list I found myself in situations where I opened myself up to get clogged up on mana because I needed more black than I had, where even a bad cycler like deadshot would have been preferable. Eventually I landed on not running a play set of Horrors, often just 2, because the odds of me getting more than one or having to keep an awkward opener because of them was so minimal then. Zilla poses a similar question, in that you need green mana, but also since it gives you 2ish cards in value when cycled, 1G on turn 2 is far more likely than being safe to fetch/have a black source on turn 1.
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I know a list will probably be helpful (which I'll try and get around to) but I have a few questions on the deck
(1) is the deck as linear as it looks? are there any tips and tricks for the deck?
(2) what do the various matchups look like right now?
(3) how would you sideboard?
(2) Can't tell you all matchups but a bad matchup e.g. is E-Tron since Chalice for 0 can be hard to beat when they follow up with a TKS or t3 Tron. Fair Creature decks (except for humans or spirits) seem to be good matchups. I also like playing against fair midrange decks as Jund.
(3) Depends on the Situation
Did anyone have any finds in this latest set?
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Aldrund, God of Cosmos - I see no use for eithe side
Cosima, God of Voyage - same
Halvar, God of Battle - i think the rules allow to cast him, even if its the backside has the lower CMC, not front side, but again, no use for it even in the UW living end variant
Kolvori, God of Kinship - either side is useless
Tolvar, God of Fury - creature side would be a winmore card, if you already have battlefield presence, artifact side useless
Egon, God of Death - Throne of Death side fills up the graveyard, but its not somethnig deckwarping
Valki, God of Lies - the only one that shows some promise i think. I could see using the Tibalt side alongside living end against control, just to overload opponents counterspells and with hope of exiling their graveyard hate and counterspells. We could in theory have 7 mana planeswalker on turn 2 with Simian Spirit Guide, and its a way to win with empty graveyard