Currently sitting on a plane in Vegas waiting to go back home. Unfortunately, the main event went very poorly for me. I punted a game against mono-G Tron to cost me the match; took a risky line against Affinity with an upkeep Dictate on 7 lands, needing to draw one land in three cards to cast the Time Warp in my hand and bricked; and got Stone Rained five consecutive turns in a row, so even my eighth consecutive land drop didn't let me cast the Jace or Cryptic in my hand. These matches felt a lot more like a misplay and the bad side of variance than anything substantial, so probably no tournament report from me this time.
However, I did bring some spice with a red splash slightly different than the one purklefluff talked about earlier. I'll post my decklist after I get back home, along with reasons behind switching colors.
I played in the Modern PTQ and went 4-2, losing to Jund after a keeping a questionable 7 card hand, then losing a close match to Bant Eldrazi after a possible misplay and several turns of making plays that would be strong in the absence of specific cards (such as holding a Cryptic for the turn my opponent played both Cavern of Souls and Thought-Knot Seer). During the PTQ I met Parker and FoodChainGoblins, so shoutout to both of you!
Also, there's fantastic discussion in this thread that I want to chime in on. Will also do that after getting back home!
Anyone ready to share their GP Vegas lists? I am planning on trying a black or white splash this summer after playing mono-U for 2 years, so looking for any feedback.
It's tough because I think Collective Brutality is literally the perfect card right now in the meta as it does so many useful things however it's huge drawback is it's escalate cost of discarding cards from hand... That's why I think white is favorable because a lot of the sideboard options don't have as big of set backs.
Plus you get access to like Terminus and that is just unbeatable for a lot of decks..
WHY DON"T WE JUST GO ESPER! lol
I just went red instead.
Pyroclasm for the go wide decks, a mixed suite of counters (including a counterflux) for spell based decks, a keranos for grindy matches and against everything else we're pretty favoured anyway. Thing in the ice goes a long way.
I also considered running bolts but haven't got quite that far yet. Would probably replace gigadrowses if I did, but that's hypothetical.
Ancestral vision is good in this build. My list is broadly the same as I've posted previously. If you can't find it, I'll repost it for you no probs.
Ancestral Vision is a card I didn't think about when I put my list together after using Howling Mine for so long. What makes Ancestral better in your build?
Here's a weird question for everyone that I have had for a while and can't really reach a conclusion on from playing the deck..
Do you think As foretold can work alongside Dictate of Kruphix/Howling Mine
Im thinking 1x As Foretold, 3 Dictate, 2 Howling Mine
From what I've played it feels really good once it gets to 2 counters and up; however, it also feels like by then you are already winning anyhow...
Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on As Foretold
I actually added two Howling Mines because having Howling Mine in play when you have Time Warp is really good, and I don't think that Search for Azcanta and As Foretold preclude the use of Howling Mine.
Overall, I think that adding some amount of Dictates and/or Mines to an As Foretold build is reasonable, but I don't think it's reasonable to add As Foretold to a Dictate/Mine build. My reasoning is that As Foretold allows you to capitalize on synergy between it and cards like Ancestral Vision, Tolaria West, Living End, etc, which seems like the most powerful reasons to run an otherwise very fragile card (vulnerable to Meddling Mage, enchantment hate, and simply not drawing your 4-of in some games). Simply adding As Foretold to an existing shell and hoping to cast more spells on turns 4+ doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me, since it doesn't actually let you cast your Time Walk effects earlier, and it doesn't help you draw extra cards, which is a critical component of Dictate/Mine builds.
i'm not too much of a fan of faerie conclave, i try to not play etb lands in turns
I sincerely believe that the Theros scrylands are worth it as a 1-of. If it's in your opening hand, there is almost always a turn that you can "take off" a mana to play it since it's very rare that we curve Serum Visions into Howling Mine into Dictate into Cryptic into Time Warp exactly. If it's not in your opening hand, it's rare that you will draw into it as the exact untapped source you needed to cast a key spell (yes this happens sometimes, but it's still rare). What happens much more often is that you use the scry to put an uncastable Time Walk effect to the bottom in the early game, or bottom the extra land you don't need, or can otherwise better plan your next turn based on what you put on top. I agree that the feel-bads with tapped lands feel very bad. But with only tapland the feel-bads are not common, and the upside on some of the tapped lands is very real.
Anyone ready to share their GP Vegas lists? I am planning on trying a black or white splash this summer after playing mono-U for 2 years, so looking for any feedback.
So a few questions about the UR build if you don't mind..
A) Are the 4x Lightning Bolt used primarily to deal 3 to your opponent or as creature removal in place of fatal push in your UB build?
B) What makes this the go to play style now? I know Pyroclasm seems excellent against Mardu Pyromancer and humans however I thought the white and black builds allowed for better sideboard options? What was your thought after this weekend? (I know it wasn't a fair tournament to base opinions on given the poor draws and whatnot)
C) Have you tried an As Foretold build with UR? I have seen a few Twitch streamers play it with like Wheel of Fate being the engine to keep drawing cards as well as Ancestral Vision allowing for a lot of solid 0 cmc plays. I have also seen Chandra, Torch of Defiance in place of JtMS as it can reach it's ultimate quicker and kill more efficiently. Just wondering if you have tried any of these styles in preparation for the tournament, or if you have any interest in it..
I know those are kind of heavy questions, but I am interested in trying red as well! Thank you so much!
**EDIT: So late night MTGO talk.. My build in paper includes 4x Serum Visions and 3x Opt however in place of Opt I wanted to spice it up and instead run Telling Time.. {I know that older builds of the deck used to run it) and it seems excellent.. Since I have been running Remand in my build as of lately it allows for a turn 2 set up with counter magic backup and it is a card that is just as relevant in the late game.. I think I may try it at the next FNM and see how it goes
So a few questions about the UR build if you don't mind..
A) Are the 4x Lightning Bolt used primarily to deal 3 to your opponent or as creature removal in place of fatal push in your UB build?
It's both. Primarily removal (maybe 70% of the time), but having access to both is really useful. By the time you decide it's a good idea to bolt your opponent's face, they're probably about to lose the game. It's also useful to keep opposing planeswalkers in check.
B) What makes this the go to play style now? I know Pyroclasm seems excellent against Mardu Pyromancer and humans however I thought the white and black builds allowed for better sideboard options? What was your thought after this weekend? (I know it wasn't a fair tournament to base opinions on given the poor draws and whatnot)
For me, it was the combination of Pyroclasm and having more hard removal in total between the 4 Bolt, 2 Abrade, 2 Pyroclasm, and 2 Engineered Explosives. In the future, I think I might go down on Thing in the Ice in the sideboard for another Abrade or Pyroclasm. Those cards are quite good at keeping the board clear!
C) Have you tried an As Foretold build with UR? I have seen a few Twitch streamers play it with like Wheel of Fate being the engine to keep drawing cards as well as Ancestral Vision allowing for a lot of solid 0 cmc plays. I have also seen Chandra, Torch of Defiance in place of JtMS as it can reach it's ultimate quicker and kill more efficiently. Just wondering if you have tried any of these styles in preparation for the tournament, or if you have any interest in it..
I haven't tried an As Foretold build because I think they play very differently from what I'm used to, but it seems worth testing. Living End in particular is good at buying time, and As Foretold is basically the only way to make that work. I don't like Chandra without changing the mana base because according to Frank Karsten's article on how many colored mana sources you need, it takes around 18 red sources to consistently (90% of the time) cast a RR spell by turn 4. That number changes a little because of cantrips like Serum Visions or the fact that you might want to cast Chandra + Exhaustion on turn 5 instead of slamming her on turn 4, but the point is you would still need substantially more red sources than I'm running. I don't think she replaces Jace, since he has the very important function of making the otherwise nearly uncastable Temporal Masteries from the opening hand castable again.
**EDIT: So late night MTGO talk.. My build in paper includes 4x Serum Visions and 3x Opt however in place of Opt I wanted to spice it up and instead run Telling Time.. {I know that older builds of the deck used to run it) and it seems excellent.. Since I have been running Remand in my build as of lately it allows for a turn 2 set up with counter magic backup and it is a card that is just as relevant in the late game.. I think I may try it at the next FNM and see how it goes
I'm still of the opinion that 2 mana on Telling Time is too much. You're definitely right that it plays well with Remand (which I don't run), so it would probably work out better in your build than mine. Go ahead and give it a shot, hope it works out well!
I think Jace is really good as a one of; however I think you could probably run a Search for Azcanta in it's place. I'm a big believer in the card. For turn 2 plays there aren't many for this deck unless you are running gigadrowse/remand/or have a hand full of cantrips, and being able to see miracles on the top and remove bad cards from the top is really useful
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
Grinded out 3 Last Chance Trials and 1 Modern Event. Ended up going 5-4 on the day. Going 0-1 twice once to Burn and another to Boggles. Then having a 3-1 run where I managed to beat Jund, Humans and Affinity but lost to fish in the finals. Then a 2-1 6pm modern beating Jeskai and Tron but losing to nut draw affinity.
Main Deck(60):
2 Cryptic Command
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Flooded Strand
3 Remand
3 Part the Waterveil
2 Prairie Stream
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Temporal Mastery
1 Terminus
3 Exhaustion
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Gigadrowse
4 Serum Visions
2 Howling Mine
4 Time Warp
3 Spreading Seas
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Snapcaster Mage
Sideboard(15):
1 Hibernation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Rest in Peace
R1 2-0 Emeria Control (He didn't run counters, just played around Path)
R2 0-2 BTLb Scapeshift (heavy mana screw)
R3 2-1 Burn (I managed to steal g1 with Settle)
R4 2-1 Affinity (Opponent announced he could not lose g3 after resolving etched champion... settle the Wreckage had some thing to say about that)
R5 2-0 Jeskai (Gigadrowse and opponent being impatient casting bolts at sorcery speed)
R6 2-0 RG Valakut (2 close games where I remanded his game winning Scapeshift)
R7 2-0 Affinity (Opponent was clearly drained and not sure how to play vs me, I jut drew g1)
R8 1-2 Dredge (misplay g3 and didn't see a single Rest in Piece).
I left the room at 7am and didn't start walking back until 1145pm. This translated into a lack of sleep and some seriously sloppy play d2.
R9 2-0 vs Valakut (Kept him locked out on green sources and aggressively used gigadrowse to lock him out of green)
R10 1-2 vs Jeskai (Some of the best interactive games of magic I've played with Turns. Unfortunately lost g2 due to missing land drops and g3 felt rushed as we started with 10 mins left.)
R11 0-2 vs Humans (Nearly clawed my way back into it after he named TimeWALK with meddling mage)
R12 2-0 vs Burn (Stole game 1 at 1 life thanks to Settle, g2 was brutal got Chalice down on 1, 2 and 3 and cast timely twice.)
R13 0-2 vs Valakut (Opponent was friendly but really slow, felt rushed g3 but really didn't care much at this point)
R14 0-2 vs Humans (He didn't nut draw like my last humans opponent but he was certainly more practiced against Turns)
R15 Drop
Went 8-6 Overall. I'm pretty happy with my performance, I don't think I was as well rested as I was at GP Phx and I definitely felt the fatigue in the later rounds. After my loss to Jeskai I kept hands I probably shouldn't have and I know I could have done much better. All of my matches felt winnable and I think my list is in a really good spot right now. My only changes going forward would be cutting the Hibernation for another Path. I still think I need more playtesting against Humans.
On Sunday I declined to play in the PTQ, instead letting my buddy Parker Pham borrow turns and he managed to go 5-1 with my list, while I also 5-1d the Limited PTQ.
I also posted my entire in depth writeup in the taking turns discord.
I run a similar UR list but do not own Jace and he is pretty expensive so far a use another mine and a beleren, but was wondering what you would suggest?
I recommend using Howling Mine. Jace Beleren dies to attacks, which is not what you want of your Mine effects. Jace the Mind Sculptor gets a pass despite that downside because he both digs deeper and allows you to put Temporal Mastery on top.
I think Jace is really good as a one of; however I think you could probably run a Search for Azcanta in it's place. I'm a big believer in the card. For turn 2 plays there aren't many for this deck unless you are running gigadrowse/remand/or have a hand full of cantrips, and being able to see miracles on the top and remove bad cards from the top is really useful
I think the best turn two play is Howling Mine. This deck needs card quantity more than any other deck, so I think Mine is better than Search in most situations. Yes, the Artifact type is worse than Enchantment because of Kolaghan's Command and not being able to turn into a land is a downside, but ultimately Howling Mine drawing you extra cards is what lets you both play lands and cast spells on turns 3+. Search for Azcanta just doesn't have that kind of upside.
[quote from="Witlesswizard »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/combo/768745-taking-turns?comment=2001"] Thanks for posting! Congrats on the amazing day 1, and sorry to hear about the physical toil it took on your day 2 performance.
Hey I appreciate it. I'm bummed I didn't get a chance to meet ya. I managed to watch one of your games from a far during the PTQ but never got a chance to officially say hi between rounds.
I like your list btw, I really think UR has a lot of potential worth looking into. Have you considered possibly moving two abrade to the main deck over bolt? I feel like the 1 extra mana wouldn't come up all too often and it'd easily free up more room in the sideboard for a card like By Force. Also are you still liking the gemstone and commandeer in your list?
Alright, so I took my UW to a super FNM tonight.. there were like 6 long rounds lol
I ended up going 4-2 with matchups against RB Hollow One, Boggles, Humans, Mono-white Taxes, Skred Red, and Elves
My overall take from tonight was that I want to try UB because it seems better positioned for the decks in my area, and I realized I was wrong about Telling Time being good (SADFACE)... Although it sets up miracles occasionally, there are some times where you really don't want any of the cards and it stinks putting one on top and one in hand lol
That being said.. I also realized that Day's Undoing is also un-needed.. There aren't enough times of almost decking for it to be worth it.. So I may use that room to go up a remand and try a few path to exile main board similar to how you are running lightning bolt mainboard.
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Hey I appreciate it. I'm bummed I didn't get a chance to meet ya. I managed to watch one of your games from a far during the PTQ but never got a chance to officially say hi between rounds.
I like your list btw, I really think UR has a lot of potential worth looking into. Have you considered possibly moving two abrade to the main deck over bolt? I feel like the 1 extra mana wouldn't come up all too often and it'd easily free up more room in the sideboard for a card like By Force. Also are you still liking the gemstone and commandeer in your list?
I haven't thought of moving Abrade to the main, but that's an interesting idea. My initial hesitation is that going face with Lightning Bolt is surprisingly relevant with a deck full of Snapcaster Mages, and trying to flashback your spell is also when the one mana matters the most. It sounds nice to free up sideboard slots though, so I might give it a shot. Gemstone Caverns and Commandeer are both still excellent and I wouldn't want to cut either. Those cards let you win games that are otherwise unwinnable at very little cost. And hopefully we'll get to meet at the next GP!
Alright, so I took my UW to a super FNM tonight.. there were like 6 long rounds lol
I ended up going 4-2 with matchups against RB Hollow One, Boggles, Humans, Mono-white Taxes, Skred Red, and Elves
My overall take from tonight was that I want to try UB because it seems better positioned for the decks in my area, and I realized I was wrong about Telling Time being good (SADFACE)... Although it sets up miracles occasionally, there are some times where you really don't want any of the cards and it stinks putting one on top and one in hand lol
That being said.. I also realized that Day's Undoing is also un-needed.. There aren't enough times of almost decking for it to be worth it.. So I may use that room to go up a remand and try a few path to exile main board similar to how you are running lightning bolt mainboard.
Wow, 6-round FNM is kind of crazy. Congrats on the positive record! As for Telling Time and Day's Undoing, it's always good to get the reps in before deciding how good a card is, but sometimes in the end you gotta cut them. I'm a big fan of adding more interaction. Good luck in your future matches!
Alright, so I took my UW to a super FNM tonight.. there were like 6 long rounds lol
I ended up going 4-2 with matchups against RB Hollow One, Boggles, Humans, Mono-white Taxes, Skred Red, and Elves
My overall take from tonight was that I want to try UB because it seems better positioned for the decks in my area, and I realized I was wrong about Telling Time being good (SADFACE)... Although it sets up miracles occasionally, there are some times where you really don't want any of the cards and it stinks putting one on top and one in hand lol
That being said.. I also realized that Day's Undoing is also un-needed.. There aren't enough times of almost decking for it to be worth it.. So I may use that room to go up a remand and try a few path to exile main board similar to how you are running lightning bolt mainboard.
oh man, I wish i'd seen your initial comment on Telling Time sooner. I could have keyed you into that and saved you the trouble haha
grats on the finish.
i'm currently testing for GP Liverpool (team unified modern) and my frontrunners are Abzan Counters Company, GW Value Town and KCI. I've been wondering about Turns generally, at the GP level, and what a tuned list would look like, and I keep coming back to the red splash that I started running (after years of UW). I'm going to continue to give the different variants some thought, and see where it takes me.
I'd always bring Turns to an FNM level event, i've brought it to 500+ person GP side events, and a slew of other medium-level tournaments. I've always had reasonable success, never gone below a positive record but all the same i've never sucked it up and brought the deck to a high-level event.
who knows, maybe Liverpool can be the first time. I'm hoping to slam as many PPTQs before then as possible, and i'll also be testing Cheerios and Tron to see how they play at present in the meta.
let's see how the Turns menace shapes up in the PPTQ season
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Has anyone tried a single Spell Snare as a form of interaction in their mainboard?
I have went through a lot of the popular decks in the meta and it hits a lot of really good cards..
Against:
KCI - Myr Retrievers
Tron - Sylvan Scrying
Humans - Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia
Jeskai - Hits Logic Knot and Mana Leak as well as their Search for Azcanta
Burn - Lightning Helix, Searing Blaze, and Eidolon
BR Hollow One - Hits Collective Brutality and Goblin Lore
Etc...
Seems really good on paper, just wondering if anyone has actually tried it and could give feedback?
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I used to play Snare, but it hasnt been huge for me lately for some reason and I pulled it. Seeing less humans I guess, I dont know. Its huge if Humans and Jund are big in your area.
Its good of course when you are on the draw, so sideboard may be better for it. The main issue is it doesnt replace itself, and if you hold up for it on Turn 2 (Serum Turn 1 on Play?) then you didnt Mine, or Remand.
Could Censor be a better option then? In that it can replace itself if you do not require a counter spell?
EDIT: As I posted this, I noticed the cmc is 2 and not 1 so it is in essence a worse remand... lol
i'm currently testing for GP Liverpool (team unified modern) and my frontrunners are Abzan Counters Company, GW Value Town and KCI. I've been wondering about Turns generally, at the GP level, and what a tuned list would look like, and I keep coming back to the red splash that I started running (after years of UW). I'm going to continue to give the different variants some thought, and see where it takes me.
I'd always bring Turns to an FNM level event, i've brought it to 500+ person GP side events, and a slew of other medium-level tournaments. I've always had reasonable success, never gone below a positive record but all the same i've never sucked it up and brought the deck to a high-level event.
Can you post your list? I'm very curious exactly how different our two lists are.
Has anyone tried a single Spell Snare as a form of interaction in their mainboard?
I don't like the idea because Spell Snare is very narrow. You're right than when it's good, it's fantastic. However, when it's bad, it's literally uncastable. In particular, even when it would be good against a deck that runs Thalia, Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Phantasmal Image, it sometimes doesn't work because of Cavern of Souls or Aether Vial. I want the fail case of my maindeck cards to be both rare and mostly reasonable, and Spell Snare's fail case is neither.
Could Censor be a better option then? In that it can replace itself if you do not require a counter spell?
EDIT: As I posted this, I noticed the cmc is 2 and not 1 so it is in essence a worse remand... lol
I'm wondering if that is enough.. It feels good. Definitely like the path in there now since I see a lot of Thalia in my area
I've tried Censor before and was extremely underwhelmed. I think your maindeck interaction is reasonable, though I'm a huge fan of Gigadrowse and would try to play more if you could find room. In the early game, it buys time. In the late game, it can be a Fog or pseudo-Time Walk against any sorcery speed deck. It's also one of the best ways to beat blue control decks.
I'm at work so you'll have to wait a bit for a current list. If you're able to scroll back through the thread it's basically the most recent one I posted. I'm flip-flopping on running 1x search for azcanta so bear that in mind.
I'm going to run turns tonight in some testing so I'll let you know how it goes.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Hi guys, is there any chance to play this deck without Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Snapcaster Mage? I know how powerful they are in this deck but I won't invest that much if it is necessary. I have a good card list base to mount this deck besides those two. If possible, may you give me a deck list without those cards?
Hi guys, is there any chance to play this deck without Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Snapcaster Mage? I know how powerful they are in this deck but I won't invest that much if it is necessary. I have a good card list base to mount this deck besides those two. If possible, may you give me a deck list without those cards?
Jace isn't necessary but he is very good. We ran the deck without jace for quite some time, so there should be some reasonable lists around which operate without jace.
I only run one or two jace anyway. Any more shouldn't be necessary unless you're doing something a bit niche.
Try just running an extra howling mine and an extra gigadrowse or something. I'm sure you'll do fine.
Also, something worth considering; I had quite a bit of personal success running a couple of maindeck thing in the ice before jace was legal.
Just checking as well; you are running snapcaster, right? I'd argue that snappy is more necessary than jace.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Hi guys, is there any chance to play this deck without Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Snapcaster Mage? I know how powerful they are in this deck but I won't invest that much if it is necessary. I have a good card list base to mount this deck besides those two. If possible, may you give me a deck list without those cards?
I agree with Purkle that Jace isn't necessary, and Snapcaster is more important. You can still run lists with few or no Jace/Snapcasters, just understand that they'll play slightly worse than lists with those cards. Seba has two recent finishes that run one Jace and one Snapcaster. You can probably replace Jace with another Howling Mine, and Snapcaster with some form of interaction (Gigadrowse, Remand, Path to Exile, etc).
I do think a lot of the exploration is a dead end, I just think the core is super tight at this point.
When a solid 20+ cards are required, and 22+ lands, there just isn't a lot of flex.
Spirits
Currently sitting on a plane in Vegas waiting to go back home. Unfortunately, the main event went very poorly for me. I punted a game against mono-G Tron to cost me the match; took a risky line against Affinity with an upkeep Dictate on 7 lands, needing to draw one land in three cards to cast the Time Warp in my hand and bricked; and got Stone Rained five consecutive turns in a row, so even my eighth consecutive land drop didn't let me cast the Jace or Cryptic in my hand. These matches felt a lot more like a misplay and the bad side of variance than anything substantial, so probably no tournament report from me this time.
However, I did bring some spice with a red splash slightly different than the one purklefluff talked about earlier. I'll post my decklist after I get back home, along with reasons behind switching colors.
I played in the Modern PTQ and went 4-2, losing to Jund after a keeping a questionable 7 card hand, then losing a close match to Bant Eldrazi after a possible misplay and several turns of making plays that would be strong in the absence of specific cards (such as holding a Cryptic for the turn my opponent played both Cavern of Souls and Thought-Knot Seer). During the PTQ I met Parker and FoodChainGoblins, so shoutout to both of you!
Also, there's fantastic discussion in this thread that I want to chime in on. Will also do that after getting back home!
Here's what I ran at GP Vegas:
1x Howling Mine
4x Dictate of Kruphix
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Time Walks
4x Time Warp
3x Temporal Mastery
2x Part the Waterveil
Other Spells
4x Serum Visions
4x Gigadrowse
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Exhaustion
2x Cryptic Command
1x Commandeer
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
5x Island
4x Snow-Covered Island
2x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2x Gemstone Caverns
2x Abrade
2x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Commandeer
3x Thing in the Ice
Ancestral Vision is a card I didn't think about when I put my list together after using Howling Mine for so long. What makes Ancestral better in your build?
LSV has a video where he says: Overall, I think that adding some amount of Dictates and/or Mines to an As Foretold build is reasonable, but I don't think it's reasonable to add As Foretold to a Dictate/Mine build. My reasoning is that As Foretold allows you to capitalize on synergy between it and cards like Ancestral Vision, Tolaria West, Living End, etc, which seems like the most powerful reasons to run an otherwise very fragile card (vulnerable to Meddling Mage, enchantment hate, and simply not drawing your 4-of in some games). Simply adding As Foretold to an existing shell and hoping to cast more spells on turns 4+ doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me, since it doesn't actually let you cast your Time Walk effects earlier, and it doesn't help you draw extra cards, which is a critical component of Dictate/Mine builds.
I sincerely believe that the Theros scrylands are worth it as a 1-of. If it's in your opening hand, there is almost always a turn that you can "take off" a mana to play it since it's very rare that we curve Serum Visions into Howling Mine into Dictate into Cryptic into Time Warp exactly. If it's not in your opening hand, it's rare that you will draw into it as the exact untapped source you needed to cast a key spell (yes this happens sometimes, but it's still rare). What happens much more often is that you use the scry to put an uncastable Time Walk effect to the bottom in the early game, or bottom the extra land you don't need, or can otherwise better plan your next turn based on what you put on top. I agree that the feel-bads with tapped lands feel very bad. But with only tapland the feel-bads are not common, and the upside on some of the tapped lands is very real.
So a few questions about the UR build if you don't mind..
A) Are the 4x Lightning Bolt used primarily to deal 3 to your opponent or as creature removal in place of fatal push in your UB build?
B) What makes this the go to play style now? I know Pyroclasm seems excellent against Mardu Pyromancer and humans however I thought the white and black builds allowed for better sideboard options? What was your thought after this weekend? (I know it wasn't a fair tournament to base opinions on given the poor draws and whatnot)
C) Have you tried an As Foretold build with UR? I have seen a few Twitch streamers play it with like Wheel of Fate being the engine to keep drawing cards as well as Ancestral Vision allowing for a lot of solid 0 cmc plays. I have also seen Chandra, Torch of Defiance in place of JtMS as it can reach it's ultimate quicker and kill more efficiently. Just wondering if you have tried any of these styles in preparation for the tournament, or if you have any interest in it..
I know those are kind of heavy questions, but I am interested in trying red as well! Thank you so much!
**EDIT: So late night MTGO talk.. My build in paper includes 4x Serum Visions and 3x Opt however in place of Opt I wanted to spice it up and instead run Telling Time.. {I know that older builds of the deck used to run it) and it seems excellent.. Since I have been running Remand in my build as of lately it allows for a turn 2 set up with counter magic backup and it is a card that is just as relevant in the late game.. I think I may try it at the next FNM and see how it goes
For me, it was the combination of Pyroclasm and having more hard removal in total between the 4 Bolt, 2 Abrade, 2 Pyroclasm, and 2 Engineered Explosives. In the future, I think I might go down on Thing in the Ice in the sideboard for another Abrade or Pyroclasm. Those cards are quite good at keeping the board clear!
I haven't tried an As Foretold build because I think they play very differently from what I'm used to, but it seems worth testing. Living End in particular is good at buying time, and As Foretold is basically the only way to make that work. I don't like Chandra without changing the mana base because according to Frank Karsten's article on how many colored mana sources you need, it takes around 18 red sources to consistently (90% of the time) cast a RR spell by turn 4. That number changes a little because of cantrips like Serum Visions or the fact that you might want to cast Chandra + Exhaustion on turn 5 instead of slamming her on turn 4, but the point is you would still need substantially more red sources than I'm running. I don't think she replaces Jace, since he has the very important function of making the otherwise nearly uncastable Temporal Masteries from the opening hand castable again.
I'm still of the opinion that 2 mana on Telling Time is too much. You're definitely right that it plays well with Remand (which I don't run), so it would probably work out better in your build than mine. Go ahead and give it a shot, hope it works out well!
Thursday:
Grinded out 3 Last Chance Trials and 1 Modern Event. Ended up going 5-4 on the day. Going 0-1 twice once to Burn and another to Boggles. Then having a 3-1 run where I managed to beat Jund, Humans and Affinity but lost to fish in the finals. Then a 2-1 6pm modern beating Jeskai and Tron but losing to nut draw affinity.
Main Deck(60):
2 Cryptic Command
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Flooded Strand
3 Remand
3 Part the Waterveil
2 Prairie Stream
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Temporal Mastery
1 Terminus
3 Exhaustion
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Gigadrowse
4 Serum Visions
2 Howling Mine
4 Time Warp
3 Spreading Seas
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Snapcaster Mage
Sideboard(15):
1 Hibernation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Rest in Peace
R1 2-0 Emeria Control (He didn't run counters, just played around Path)
R2 0-2 BTLb Scapeshift (heavy mana screw)
R3 2-1 Burn (I managed to steal g1 with Settle)
R4 2-1 Affinity (Opponent announced he could not lose g3 after resolving etched champion... settle the Wreckage had some thing to say about that)
R5 2-0 Jeskai (Gigadrowse and opponent being impatient casting bolts at sorcery speed)
R6 2-0 RG Valakut (2 close games where I remanded his game winning Scapeshift)
R7 2-0 Affinity (Opponent was clearly drained and not sure how to play vs me, I jut drew g1)
R8 1-2 Dredge (misplay g3 and didn't see a single Rest in Piece).
I left the room at 7am and didn't start walking back until 1145pm. This translated into a lack of sleep and some seriously sloppy play d2.
R9 2-0 vs Valakut (Kept him locked out on green sources and aggressively used gigadrowse to lock him out of green)
R10 1-2 vs Jeskai (Some of the best interactive games of magic I've played with Turns. Unfortunately lost g2 due to missing land drops and g3 felt rushed as we started with 10 mins left.)
R11 0-2 vs Humans (Nearly clawed my way back into it after he named TimeWALK with meddling mage)
R12 2-0 vs Burn (Stole game 1 at 1 life thanks to Settle, g2 was brutal got Chalice down on 1, 2 and 3 and cast timely twice.)
R13 0-2 vs Valakut (Opponent was friendly but really slow, felt rushed g3 but really didn't care much at this point)
R14 0-2 vs Humans (He didn't nut draw like my last humans opponent but he was certainly more practiced against Turns)
R15 Drop
Went 8-6 Overall. I'm pretty happy with my performance, I don't think I was as well rested as I was at GP Phx and I definitely felt the fatigue in the later rounds. After my loss to Jeskai I kept hands I probably shouldn't have and I know I could have done much better. All of my matches felt winnable and I think my list is in a really good spot right now. My only changes going forward would be cutting the Hibernation for another Path. I still think I need more playtesting against Humans.
On Sunday I declined to play in the PTQ, instead letting my buddy Parker Pham borrow turns and he managed to go 5-1 with my list, while I also 5-1d the Limited PTQ.
I also posted my entire in depth writeup in the taking turns discord.
I think the best turn two play is Howling Mine. This deck needs card quantity more than any other deck, so I think Mine is better than Search in most situations. Yes, the Artifact type is worse than Enchantment because of Kolaghan's Command and not being able to turn into a land is a downside, but ultimately Howling Mine drawing you extra cards is what lets you both play lands and cast spells on turns 3+. Search for Azcanta just doesn't have that kind of upside.
Thanks for posting! Congrats on the amazing day 1, and sorry to hear about the physical toil it took on your day 2 performance.
Hey I appreciate it. I'm bummed I didn't get a chance to meet ya. I managed to watch one of your games from a far during the PTQ but never got a chance to officially say hi between rounds.
I like your list btw, I really think UR has a lot of potential worth looking into. Have you considered possibly moving two abrade to the main deck over bolt? I feel like the 1 extra mana wouldn't come up all too often and it'd easily free up more room in the sideboard for a card like By Force. Also are you still liking the gemstone and commandeer in your list?
I ended up going 4-2 with matchups against RB Hollow One, Boggles, Humans, Mono-white Taxes, Skred Red, and Elves
My overall take from tonight was that I want to try UB because it seems better positioned for the decks in my area, and I realized I was wrong about Telling Time being good (SADFACE)... Although it sets up miracles occasionally, there are some times where you really don't want any of the cards and it stinks putting one on top and one in hand lol
That being said.. I also realized that Day's Undoing is also un-needed.. There aren't enough times of almost decking for it to be worth it.. So I may use that room to go up a remand and try a few path to exile main board similar to how you are running lightning bolt mainboard.
Wow, 6-round FNM is kind of crazy. Congrats on the positive record! As for Telling Time and Day's Undoing, it's always good to get the reps in before deciding how good a card is, but sometimes in the end you gotta cut them. I'm a big fan of adding more interaction. Good luck in your future matches!
oh man, I wish i'd seen your initial comment on Telling Time sooner. I could have keyed you into that and saved you the trouble haha
grats on the finish.
i'm currently testing for GP Liverpool (team unified modern) and my frontrunners are Abzan Counters Company, GW Value Town and KCI. I've been wondering about Turns generally, at the GP level, and what a tuned list would look like, and I keep coming back to the red splash that I started running (after years of UW). I'm going to continue to give the different variants some thought, and see where it takes me.
I'd always bring Turns to an FNM level event, i've brought it to 500+ person GP side events, and a slew of other medium-level tournaments. I've always had reasonable success, never gone below a positive record but all the same i've never sucked it up and brought the deck to a high-level event.
who knows, maybe Liverpool can be the first time. I'm hoping to slam as many PPTQs before then as possible, and i'll also be testing Cheerios and Tron to see how they play at present in the meta.
let's see how the Turns menace shapes up in the PPTQ season
I have went through a lot of the popular decks in the meta and it hits a lot of really good cards..
Against:
KCI - Myr Retrievers
Tron - Sylvan Scrying
Humans - Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia
Jeskai - Hits Logic Knot and Mana Leak as well as their Search for Azcanta
Burn - Lightning Helix, Searing Blaze, and Eidolon
BR Hollow One - Hits Collective Brutality and Goblin Lore
Etc...
Seems really good on paper, just wondering if anyone has actually tried it and could give feedback?
Its good of course when you are on the draw, so sideboard may be better for it. The main issue is it doesnt replace itself, and if you hold up for it on Turn 2 (Serum Turn 1 on Play?) then you didnt Mine, or Remand.
Spirits
EDIT: As I posted this, I noticed the cmc is 2 and not 1 so it is in essence a worse remand... lol
What other options are there?
Currently my forms of interaction are:
2x Gigadrowse
2x Path to Exile
3x Remand
and 2x Cryptic Command
I'm wondering if that is enough.. It feels good. Definitely like the path in there now since I see a lot of Thalia in my area
I don't like the idea because Spell Snare is very narrow. You're right than when it's good, it's fantastic. However, when it's bad, it's literally uncastable. In particular, even when it would be good against a deck that runs Thalia, Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Phantasmal Image, it sometimes doesn't work because of Cavern of Souls or Aether Vial. I want the fail case of my maindeck cards to be both rare and mostly reasonable, and Spell Snare's fail case is neither.
I've tried Censor before and was extremely underwhelmed. I think your maindeck interaction is reasonable, though I'm a huge fan of Gigadrowse and would try to play more if you could find room. In the early game, it buys time. In the late game, it can be a Fog or pseudo-Time Walk against any sorcery speed deck. It's also one of the best ways to beat blue control decks.
I'm going to run turns tonight in some testing so I'll let you know how it goes.
Jace isn't necessary but he is very good. We ran the deck without jace for quite some time, so there should be some reasonable lists around which operate without jace.
I only run one or two jace anyway. Any more shouldn't be necessary unless you're doing something a bit niche.
Try just running an extra howling mine and an extra gigadrowse or something. I'm sure you'll do fine.
Also, something worth considering; I had quite a bit of personal success running a couple of maindeck thing in the ice before jace was legal.
Just checking as well; you are running snapcaster, right? I'd argue that snappy is more necessary than jace.
List 1
1 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (27)
3 Gigadrowse
2 Opt
4 Serum Visions
2 Remand
3 Exhaustion
2 Cryptic Command
4 Time Warp
3 Part the Waterveil
1 Terminus
3 Temporal Mastery
1 Howling Mine
Enchantments (8)
4 Spreading Seas
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Inkmoth Nexus
9 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Polluted Delta
2 Prairie Stream
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Settle the Wreckage
3 Terminus
1 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (27)
3 Gigadrowse
4 Serum Visions
3 Remand
3 Exhaustion
2 Cryptic Command
1 Settle the Wreckage
4 Time Warp
3 Part the Waterveil
1 Terminus
3 Temporal Mastery
2 Howling Mine
3 Spreading Seas
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Inkmoth Nexus
9 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Polluted Delta
2 Prairie Stream
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Gigadrowse
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus