first non FNM event with dredge and boy did it go poorly
went 2-3 drop in a 6 round event
round 1 I quickly 2-0 mono green belcher. wasn't really a match, destroyed him quickly
1-0
round 2 I 2-1 hollow one. he crushed me game one but I was able to get to leyline on mulls to 6 games 2 and 3 then I beat him
2-0 but it goes downhill from here
round 3 I lose 1-2 to Mardu pyromancer
game 1 he mulls to 5 and can't stop me from executing y plan. he gets me game 2, he was able to slow me down. game 3 he was sitting n nihil spellbomb for a while and held it until he could clear my board, crush my huge graveyard. I was so far ahead but couldn't recover from this and lost
2-1. still very much in it but still going downhill
round 4 I lose to burn 1-2. crushed him game 1, he crushed me game 2. I punted game 3. for some reason, |I decided I wanted to go all in. decided |I wanted to conflgrate for 5, sending 1 as his lavamancer to remove it as a blocker, 4 to him to give my bloodghasts haste. attacked with everything, leaving myself open to him unloading his hand and attacking. threw the match
2-2, needed to win and have luck on my side
round 5 lose to mono green tron 1-2. he mulled game 1 and I won. game 2 he kept me spinning my wheels. game 3 he drew really well. needed to draw a board wipe off his sphere, he draws o stone with enough to cast and activate. I rebuild but he top decks Ugin and exiles everything. I lose
2-3, dropped because I was tilted
still not sure on my skill level/comfort level with the deck. still feels incredibly weird to me. might try a few more events with the deck before going back to what I know more
I find Shriekhorn lets you keep more hands, but neonate is slightly better in like 50 tiny ways. As Sodek has said elsewhere, it counts for Gnaw to the Bone, blocks creatures, and does not grow Tarmo. It also is better if you have imp or thug in hand, can be used with driven to despair, does not get abrupt decayed for value (an otherwise dead card), can be used with devil/ rally the peasants, does not let burn decks side in smash to smithereens, digs for counter hate, discards payoff creatures, digs for the second land or green source, etc.
So right now u are playing Neonate or Shriekhorns? for me horn is better becouse the most important thing for me is to activate dredge engine as fast as possible and Neonate can do cute things but it won't support Dredge engine as good as stable "mill 4 no matter what".
Sodek- without neonates can we add more darkblast for thugs? I think shriekhorn is = neonate + thug, and when darkblast is good, it is important to have it early.
Darkblast is good, and probably the correct choice about main deck... but I still wouldnt go below 3 neonates and 2 thugs. Darkblasts are fine, but you can only replace them with dredgers, and discard with discard. The number to make the deck work has really been streamlined and shouldnt be messed too hard.
While worth mentioning, I think the tomb should be disregarded. A three mana card that must be played from hand when your deck is already working is no good game one. In games two and three, the wording leads me to believe you only get one bat if they exile your entire graveyard, and thus the traditional counter hate would seem to be more useful.
I took the deck on MTGO and fell in love with this weird mechanic who is called "dredge"
I took @Sodekk / Sodeq's list (thanks dude !) and I did 2 Friendly league.
4-1 both league :
2-0 vs White Eldrazi Taxes
1-2 vs Burn
2-0 vs Green Tron
2-0 vs Elves
2-0 vs Mardu Pyro
2-0 vs Hollow One
1-2 vs Hollow One
2-0 vs Jeskai Control
1-0 vs UW Control (he finished without time after having lost the first game)
2-1 vs Affinity
so 8-2 and I find the deck extremely solid in the competitive meta.
Often my opponents keep a hand not great with graveyard hate and is punished for that.
New to dredge, but I think it is good even without bridge and elephant. Supplier basically reads B: Dredge 3 and dredge 3 more when you chump block a goblin guide. I know some builds have been going back to shriekhorn; this seems purely better due to attaching a blocker or attacker.
Supplier may stretch the mana a bit too thin in the stock build using the Loam+Conflagrate engine - they need red on turn 1 for an enabler, then green for Loam, but with Supplier they would have an added "black on turn 1" requirement.
The mana base is one reason I think Supplier could make the Gargadon+Bridge engine viable. In the list I posted you don't need green for maindeck cards at all, so you can just build your mana base as BR and toss in 2 Stomping Ground for SB cards. The other is that Gargadon is a sac outlet for Supplier.
Here's a short list of tricks that are possible in the Gargadon+Bridge version:
- You can sac stuff to Gargadon for Bridge tokens (obviously), to deny lifelink or exile-based removal.
- Gargadon beatdown is a possible plan B, either by waiting long enough or saccing enough stuff to it.
- Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam are free to sac as long as you've got a land to bring them back.
- If you discard Bridge as part of Neonate's cost (discard first, then sac), you get a Zombie.
- If Gargadon is in your graveyard, you can hardcast Golgari Thug, let it die, put Gargadon on top and draw it normally.
- You can recycle Dakmor Salvage by playing it, saccing it to Gargadon and dredging it back.
- If you have 3 lands, you can sac one to Gargadon, then play an untapped Blackcleave Cliffs.
I haven't seen any recent discussions on this, but has anyone considered a version with SSGs and Flame of Keld for accelerated Cathartic Reunion/Flame of Keld starts?
I haven't seen any recent discussions on this, but has anyone considered a version with SSGs and Flame of Keld for accelerated Cathartic Reunion/Flame of Keld starts?
This has been discussed 1.5 years ago and the then-World Champion correctly concluded that SSG was bad. The idea of stuffing Simian Spirit Guide into any aggro/combo deck to make it faster has come up time and again, and unless there is a very good reason for it, it just doesn't work. Speed for speed's sake is not a good reason.
"Let's use SSG in Storm, we can power out Pyromancer Ascension on turn 1"
"Let's use SSG in Amulet, we can make a Titan on turn 1", marred further by the fact that the guy still playing 1 SSG when Amulet became mainstream was a cheater
"Let's use SSG in Cheeri0s, we can power out Puresteel Paladin on turn 1", with Rugged Prairie to fix colors
"Let's use SSG in Hollow One, we can power out H1s on turn 1 with Looting"
There will be a few successes with all these SSG combo decks, which then slowly start to fade as people realize that they were carried by the rest of the deck and not SSG itself. Eventually the accepted stock decklist is one that doesn't have any SSGs in it.
FWIW, the (non-exhaustive) acceptable uses of SSG IMO are:
- casting Through the Breach before turn 5
- casting a turn 1 Chalice of the Void
- casting your kill condition in a draw-your-deck combo like Ad Nauseam or Grishoalbrand
- letting you curve properly because your deck has a hole in the 2 mana slot (Living End)
I haven't seen any recent discussions on this, but has anyone considered a version with SSGs and Flame of Keld for accelerated Cathartic Reunion/Flame of Keld starts?
This has been discussed 1.5 years ago and the then-World Champion correctly concluded that SSG was bad. The idea of stuffing Simian Spirit Guide into any aggro/combo deck to make it faster has come up time and again, and unless there is a very good reason for it, it just doesn't work. Speed for speed's sake is not a good reason.
"Let's use SSG in Storm, we can power out Pyromancer Ascension on turn 1"
"Let's use SSG in Amulet, we can make a Titan on turn 1", marred further by the fact that the guy still playing 1 SSG when Amulet became mainstream was a cheater
"Let's use SSG in Cheeri0s, we can power out Puresteel Paladin on turn 1", with Rugged Prairie to fix colors
"Let's use SSG in Hollow One, we can power out H1s on turn 1 with Looting"
There will be a few successes with all these SSG combo decks, which then slowly start to fade as people realize that they were carried by the rest of the deck and not SSG itself. Eventually the accepted stock decklist is one that doesn't have any SSGs in it.
FWIW, the (non-exhaustive) acceptable uses of SSG IMO are:
- casting Through the Breach before turn 5
- casting a turn 1 Chalice of the Void
- casting your kill condition in a draw-your-deck combo like Ad Nauseam or Grishoalbrand
- letting you curve properly because your deck has a hole in the 2 mana slot (Living End)
Thanks. All makes sense to me, although I can see a world where the resiliency of Dredge isn't good in the metagame such that you need to speed up to keep up with the meta a card like SSG is fine. Agree with your acceptable uses of SSG generally, although casting Breach before turn 5 isn't that essential and I can see SSGs/pentad prisms being replaced by generally good cards in the Grixis colors in Grixis Goryo's Vengeance, for example.
And thanks for the heads up on Dangerous wager. I was caught up on brewing with Flame of Keld in other shells that it slipped that Dangerous Wager is already a thing.
It does make the mana worse, but Stitcher's Supplier is probably the most interesting card well get for a few years lol. Its a mill card cheap and on color... which is big. Even if we end up passing on it, I bet its an auto include for dredgevine, as they are looking to cast 1 drops, mill, and have creatures in the deck.
@izzetmage- theres another interaction you didnt note: Stitcher's Supplier, mill thug, block a something, cast thug, mill 3, ect. Sometimes the "thug recur BLANK" grind can be the real deal.
went 2-3 drop in a 6 round event
round 1 I quickly 2-0 mono green belcher. wasn't really a match, destroyed him quickly
1-0
round 2 I 2-1 hollow one. he crushed me game one but I was able to get to leyline on mulls to 6 games 2 and 3 then I beat him
2-0 but it goes downhill from here
round 3 I lose 1-2 to Mardu pyromancer
game 1 he mulls to 5 and can't stop me from executing y plan. he gets me game 2, he was able to slow me down. game 3 he was sitting n nihil spellbomb for a while and held it until he could clear my board, crush my huge graveyard. I was so far ahead but couldn't recover from this and lost
2-1. still very much in it but still going downhill
round 4 I lose to burn 1-2. crushed him game 1, he crushed me game 2. I punted game 3. for some reason, |I decided I wanted to go all in. decided |I wanted to conflgrate for 5, sending 1 as his lavamancer to remove it as a blocker, 4 to him to give my bloodghasts haste. attacked with everything, leaving myself open to him unloading his hand and attacking. threw the match
2-2, needed to win and have luck on my side
round 5 lose to mono green tron 1-2. he mulled game 1 and I won. game 2 he kept me spinning my wheels. game 3 he drew really well. needed to draw a board wipe off his sphere, he draws o stone with enough to cast and activate. I rebuild but he top decks Ugin and exiles everything. I lose
2-3, dropped because I was tilted
still not sure on my skill level/comfort level with the deck. still feels incredibly weird to me. might try a few more events with the deck before going back to what I know more
Tl;dr: I agree with Sodek.
You dredge? Have a bat. You reanimate, you get a bat too! They nuke your graveyard, Awesome, heres some bats.
Might be worth mentioning.
I took @Sodekk / Sodeq's list (thanks dude !) and I did 2 Friendly league.
4-1 both league :
2-0 vs White Eldrazi Taxes
1-2 vs Burn
2-0 vs Green Tron
2-0 vs Elves
2-0 vs Mardu Pyro
2-0 vs Hollow One
1-2 vs Hollow One
2-0 vs Jeskai Control
1-0 vs UW Control (he finished without time after having lost the first game)
2-1 vs Affinity
so 8-2 and I find the deck extremely solid in the competitive meta.
Often my opponents keep a hand not great with graveyard hate and is punished for that.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
He plays very well with the old Greater Gargadon + Bridge from Below engine. I wonder if it's possible now? A very straightforward starting point:
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bridge from Below
20 lands
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
New to dredge, but I think it is good even without bridge and elephant. Supplier basically reads B: Dredge 3 and dredge 3 more when you chump block a goblin guide. I know some builds have been going back to shriekhorn; this seems purely better due to attaching a blocker or attacker.
The mana base is one reason I think Supplier could make the Gargadon+Bridge engine viable. In the list I posted you don't need green for maindeck cards at all, so you can just build your mana base as BR and toss in 2 Stomping Ground for SB cards. The other is that Gargadon is a sac outlet for Supplier.
Here's a short list of tricks that are possible in the Gargadon+Bridge version:
- You can sac stuff to Gargadon for Bridge tokens (obviously), to deny lifelink or exile-based removal.
- Gargadon beatdown is a possible plan B, either by waiting long enough or saccing enough stuff to it.
- Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam are free to sac as long as you've got a land to bring them back.
- If you discard Bridge as part of Neonate's cost (discard first, then sac), you get a Zombie.
- If Gargadon is in your graveyard, you can hardcast Golgari Thug, let it die, put Gargadon on top and draw it normally.
- You can recycle Dakmor Salvage by playing it, saccing it to Gargadon and dredging it back.
- If you have 3 lands, you can sac one to Gargadon, then play an untapped Blackcleave Cliffs.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
"Let's use SSG in Storm, we can power out Pyromancer Ascension on turn 1"
"Let's use SSG in Amulet, we can make a Titan on turn 1", marred further by the fact that the guy still playing 1 SSG when Amulet became mainstream was a cheater
"Let's use SSG in Cheeri0s, we can power out Puresteel Paladin on turn 1", with Rugged Prairie to fix colors
"Let's use SSG in Hollow One, we can power out H1s on turn 1 with Looting"
There will be a few successes with all these SSG combo decks, which then slowly start to fade as people realize that they were carried by the rest of the deck and not SSG itself. Eventually the accepted stock decklist is one that doesn't have any SSGs in it.
FWIW, the (non-exhaustive) acceptable uses of SSG IMO are:
- casting Through the Breach before turn 5
- casting a turn 1 Chalice of the Void
- casting your kill condition in a draw-your-deck combo like Ad Nauseam or Grishoalbrand
- letting you curve properly because your deck has a hole in the 2 mana slot (Living End)
P.S. The Flame of Keld is a bad Dangerous Wager
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
And thanks for the heads up on Dangerous wager. I was caught up on brewing with Flame of Keld in other shells that it slipped that Dangerous Wager is already a thing.
@izzetmage- theres another interaction you didnt note: Stitcher's Supplier, mill thug, block a something, cast thug, mill 3, ect. Sometimes the "thug recur BLANK" grind can be the real deal.