I keep testing, and I'm never really casting driven. Just never really have the shot. I did against worship deck, and it won me the game since I could get to EExpostives, to win the game. Drew me 5 cards. Dispair is coming in handy actually. It's just really really good against decks that grind or slow the game. Terrible else where. I havent really hit against those decks as often, so I think my data of how often its good is sqewed. Like I said cockatrice is bad data testing, but good for card evaluaions.
I think driven//despair IS a good card, but it might be meta dependent and it might be more of a sideboard card that can be mainboarded. Shooting it off to make them discard 2-3 is the sweet spot it seems, so being aggressive with it is ok.
If anyones got thoughts on this Id love to hear it.
Edit: thinking about it more and more... I think it might have to do with the fact it isnt instant. That makes timing really weird.
Ok. Testing for the cards value (not for the data/numbers, where it should go) is done.
Its basically rally, but not rally. It is very strong. You rarely drive, but when you do, you drive for 4-5. I found that you dont often dredge with drive, you look for sideboard cards. Pulse (yea, I started using it.), decay, thoughtseize, brutality, EE stuff like that. You dont get to do that until round turn 4. If you do it prior to that you were likely going to win the game (2 ghasts and a amalgam out on turn 3) but it also seals the game. So thats more or less win more.
Evaluating drive on its own? Id say the card is ALOT less important than I hoped. Overall, youd rather see the card in the yard than out of it, and you never want to see it in the opener.
Moving on to Despair, this card is the real deal. You can play it turn 3 against more ball rolling decks (tron, eldrazi, elves) but its real power is against the decks that dont mind taking time. Control, deaths shadow, jund, junk, hatebears, turns, scapeshift, titan bloom, titan shift. It mops the floor with them. It also gives menace, which might not seem like it, but gives rally/stinkweed numbers of damage... BUT ONLY AGAINST THE SLOW DECKS. its not like rally where its always a race. It just does rally numbers because chump blockers.
Finally, I got to play against storm with it as well as Ad Nauseam. Its the best card Ive ever played against them. If you mill this, and have 3 dudes out... its just over.
Evaluating drive on its own? Its very powerful, and the mode you perfer. It can stop chump blocking, it pushes damage, and destroys hands. It gives the deck a unique edge that it was lacking and "almost" feels like cabal theopy, but only against slower decks.
Overall: I think the card might end up being a little too hit or miss in the long run. I cant make that call right now... I think we as a community need to en masse try it out and see. But the card SHOULD be used aggressively, and earlier than youd think. In a meta of sloweriness, I think this card can replace rally, and probably be better. But in a wide open meta it might be better to use rally. Its also worth noting, some of these we already are likely to win against... so maybe the card isnt even worth playing because its redonant
Based on if you this card in the grave or hand against X deck it will be:
Really good against Somewhat good against. Really bad, you wont use it
Grixis death's shadow
Affinity
Eldrazi Tron
Titanshift
Burn
W/U Control
Dredge (You can trigger this to dredge you will out speed)
Collected company
Storm
Small Pox
Junk
Jund Deaths shadow
Living End
Bant Eldrazi
Humans
Jund
Merfolk
Lantern
Death and taxes
Jeskai
As you can see, my results are all over the place... so like I said, likely meta dependent, sideboard that can be main boarded.
I'll be using one in my sideboard as something to cut rally for depending, and moving 2 collective brutality into my main. Right now that card is very very good. I also am using some amount of pulse or EE. I cant decide which is better. I still dont think going all in on reactive is correct, but veristility is important and there are more leylines than I thought.
How many lands you´re using? Is there any specific rule to go with 20 or 21 lands?
EDIT: Im planning to go with 20 lands and having 1 land on sideboard. Something which can destroy special lands.
I played with 21 for some time and that feels like the sweet spot for me.
Now I changed to 20 and so far I am not having problems with it so I really think it is a matter of personal preference.
I seen people play with 19 lands and they were doing fine. It is all about having two lands in your opening hand and after that just dredge Loam, cast it and play your lands after that.
Getting ready for a PPTQ this Saturday. This looks like the 75 I am going to be running. Similar to Holiday's list from the GP Vegas. Expecting a fair amount of Shadow as well as affinity. Any thoughts?
Have you thought of Vengeful Pharaoh in sideboard? Would be a threath itself if opponent has big creatures on board. Also
Maelstrom Pulse is really nice one on side as well.
Getting ready for a PPTQ this Saturday. This looks like the 75 I am going to be running. Similar to Holiday's list from the GP Vegas. Expecting a fair amount of Shadow as well as affinity. Any thoughts?
Sheltered Thicket, Spicey. I havent had enough practice with the cycle lands. Anyone have more than me wanna say how good it is or not? I am really sticky on my mana base because I wanna not hurt myself, now more than ever.
This one is really intresting deck, your thoughts ?
Ha, seeing that deck made me laugh. Its dredgevine. The thing that existed in modern before dredge took the lime light. I have my own version I used to play alot (credit where credits due, it was pizzap's idea) with death's shadow and Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Its not used anymore "often" because it is less consistent. It takes the same amount of set up time, for less pay off. Aside from that, it also cant sideboard as well as us, which if I remember correctly is the main reason why it dropped off completely.
I even own promo Vines and gravecrawlers. wayfinders were always stupid. Recently at my shop someone played wayfinder in a table next to me and someone was like "Oh. that card seems ok?" And in my head I was like "You have no idea how powerful that card is..."
Thats the future of the deck if they banned something like amalgam. Its tier 3, its a bleak future if thats the future.
Really appreciate the initial analysis and testing on Driven // Despair, Lantern. Thanks for this!
I will be trying out a copy or two as soon as I can get them.
Hey man, any time. I pushed the rating a little higher in my head recently, as I thinkkkkk I'm sick? So I took the day off and bored me tested some more. I got to use it ALOT more today against pox, deaths shadow, scapeshift (both kinds) 8 rack, jund, and 4 color control. It wrecked all of them. Against the jund player I even made them discard 5 on turn 4 (ghast, 2 narcs, 1imp, 2 amalgam, 1 block). That was absurd. The guy literally conceded after I reminded him of the discard 5. and then left the match.
It might be a pretty fair replacement to rally after all. But again, rally helps race, this helps make the opponent not win. Sorta similar, better in different situations. I highly suggest everyone pick up at least two copies and run one main, one side for 2 to 3 weeks, and report the testing. It will cost you 1.50... and thats pre release prices. I dont think the price will spike higher than 50 Cents, wouldnt be suprised if this was .25 cents by next week.
Ha, seeing that deck made me laugh. Its dredgevine. The thing that existed in modern before dredge took the lime light. I have my own version I used to play alot (credit where credits due, it was pizzap's idea) with death's shadow and Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Its not used anymore "often" because it is less consistent. It takes the same amount of set up time, for less pay off. Aside from that, it also cant sideboard as well as us, which if I remember correctly is the main reason why it dropped off completely.
I even own promo Vines and gravecrawlers. wayfinders were always stupid. Recently at my shop someone played wayfinder in a table next to me and someone was like "Oh. that card seems ok?" And in my head I was like "You have no idea how powerful that card is..."
Thats the future of the deck if they banned something like amalgam. Its tier 3, its a bleak future if thats the future.
Ahh the gold ol' days where the only Dredge was Dredgevine
I had promo Vines and Crawlers too Lantern
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I still run my standar list with 4 toughs, 3 loams and 1 Scourge devil with 20 lands. It still works fine for me, but what would be your recomended actualized list? I have a local tourney this week end and would like to read some recomendations. Thanks.
3 mom hugs! How dare I? Brutality does the same job, different, but at the same cost. So it makes sense on the curve to consolidate it like so. Right now brutality is really good. so running it in the main is more than correct. I actually found that I like Despair in the rally spots. Its sided out in the same matches too, aggro, but does alot of "damage" to the decks rally would work against AND combo. It also seems like when rally wins the game, despair does it to (be it a full turn later, but you basically time walk them by taking their hand) and where rally doesnt win the game, Despair still does because you stopped them from playing magic, giving you 1-3 more turns of beat down without them recovering.
Moving to the side, this is what I settled on. the numbers are pretty hard crunched at this point. I dont love pulse, but it is a concession to the fact its slightly more versatile, killing delve creatures, tron creatures, better against stuff like elves as well as being an anti hate card. Explosives just sures up some of those gaps. I think running more than 3 destroy anything cards is wrong, because you'll never side in more than 3.
Darkblast replaces dredge, so it makes an easy sub in, letting my life be easier. Same with bog, grudge//gnaw and axe, replacing dakmor, despair//conflag and neonate respectively. Since I got my bases covered with pulse and explosives when I need to be versatile, I should be narrow but powerful when doing the other side cards.
Discard like seize and another brutality rounds the pack, more for big stuff I cant handle. Combo and big mana.
I did a play in testing today I wanted to highlight for you all. Well and brag a bit. But I beat 3 hate cards played against me in rapid fire. He sorta made mistakes here, but I played around and took advantage of them. So to inform I'll do a play by play:
Game 2 vs Junk.
Turn 0: I am on the draw, and mull a hand of 7 that was slow, but ok, and had no ways to deal with hate. I get a 6 of Bloodstained Mire, Mountain, Engineered Explosives, Looting, stinkweed, amalgam and keep it. He mulls, scrys to top and keeps.
Turn 1: He plays a land, pass. I draw loam play looting drawing a neonate and amalgam tossing a stink weed and amalgam. If he does hate, thats fine. I have loam to cast as back up. If he doesnt, I get a fast start.
Turn 2: he plays RiP. I exile my stuff. I draw copperline, and play engineered on 2. I figure, cool, I'll break it, neonate next turn and loam.
Turn 3: He plays spell bomb. Crap. Now I figure, I'll just have to power through it, make him crack it and then refill with loam instead, slow but should work since he is out of gas then. I play neonate and my mire, drawing my ghast and pass. Might as well stop him from playing a goyf on his turn.
Turn 4: He passes. I decide, well... lets see if I can get him to force the spell bomb with ghast instead, that way I can conserve loam. So I dont crack. I draw another neonate (cool. that will help refill) attack for big damage, blow up RiP, use neonate to drop a ghast in my yard. I was going to leave it there in order to force him to use it on his turn, thus making him waste mana. Or even let him mess up and blow it early. Here he misplays. He surgical extracts my ghast. I crack my fetch, he decides to fight it (I later find out he has a leyline in hand, and wants to get to 4 mana) so he cracks the spell bomb. Seems great, seeya yard.
Turn 5: he now has 3 mana, casts a Goyf and passes. I draw reunion (sweet) and neonate my loam first, then reunion, tossing my amalgam and loam for 9, getting a salvage out so I can trigger my ghast and ending my turn with 1 ghast and 3 amalgams.
Turn 6: He plays lingering souls for block duty. Seems great. I dredge imp, and hit a despair. I despair, meaning he can only block 1 of my 4 attackers, attack in and drop him to a single card in hand (discarding 2 removal and another tarmo).
Turn 7: he draws, hits the land, shows me the leyline, and concedes.
I was patting myself on the back there, because I beat 4 hate cards in one game. Despair sealed the deal there and rally/devil wouldnt have worked.
On a side note, anyone got mtgo dredge? I know this is totally not couth, but anyone willing to let me barrow it for a day? I want to do that dredge triggers and how to play video and it would help me out. I can do it in paper, but thats more annoying.
On a side note, anyone got mtgo dredge? I know this is totally not couth, but anyone willing to let me barrow it for a day? I want to do that dredge triggers and how to play video and it would help me out. I can do it in paper, but thats more annoying.
Since i got my dredge deck now on paper, im investing in the end of the month to MTGO dredge. Maybe then i can help you
out with it.
Kay, used my list tonight at modern. I went 4-0. Damn despair is a house when just used for utility, I think I do like it more than rally for the menace. I also am really happy with all the sideboard changes as I made myself a new side guide to follow.
Round 1 Vs Eldrazi Death and Taxes 2-1 WIN (1-0)
Game 1 I saw concealed courtyard, and assumed death and taxes from it. I have a slower, but good start in terms of grind. Game one its generally always OK to grind. He lands Eldrazi displacer after displacer, but I notice he isnt playing any colorless sources. I take advantage of that, knowing I have a window before he can interact with me and use it to race. Eventually it forces him to have to start trading, and I know I've created too much of a value gap and have the overwhelm.
Game 2 In: 1 explosives, 2 pulse, 2 axe (for hate and big dudes) Out: 2 neonate, 1 mom hug, 1 Despair, 1 loam.
I open a pretty grindy hand, but assume I can probably out value him, and face the dreaded turn 1 relic. I play slow and steady, killing off narcs and extra sorceries to the relic. Basically, my go to plan against a relic is lower how good it is by never over playing into it, and using the grave for value instead of an engine. I actually out value the relic really well (fetches are amazing here. I actually put 1 out as a bluff even though I was outta lands to fetch for) by waiting for him to use his mana then going hard in on dredge. but I lose to 3 lingering souls double activation. Hes got the blockers and the attackers to out value me, and I missed the shot to get conflag on line. Activating vault of the arkangel seals the deal.
Game 3 I open a hand of looting, two imps, and a mom hug on the play. I figure his hate is relic, so by looting I can toss my imps and keep them safe by exiling looting. If he has RiP, he is probably dead. He does have the turn 1 relic, and I exile looting. I go off on mom hug getting myself 2 amalgams, 1 ghast, 1 narc. It should me more than enough. If he destroys my yard, I get to face damage him twice. If he tries to use removal I'll gain value out of it. And it ends up just like that. Its too much damage early on, and I conflag him for leathal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 Vs Esper Sprints 2-1 WIN (2-0)
This guy is new to modern. Hes a very cool guy, but getting used to advanced triggers and stacking. I only noticed around 2 play mistakes with him, so hes getting the hang of it pretty well.
Sadly I lose game 1. Hey, it happens, especially if the deck plays off and the opponent has interaction AND a clock. God damn tempo decks, lol. Spirits, for anyone unfamiliar with the deck, is one of those weird decks where you are like "I think I shouldnt be losing... but I am." Flying beats, queller on conflag is aweful, and they can hexproof protect.
In 1 brutality, 2 darkblast, 2 pulse, 1 explosives, 1 gnaw Out: 1 thug, 1 loam, 2 mom hug, 1 ghast, 1 conflag. Conflag generally goes to face here, because queller and hexproof blow outs. Dark blasting to keep up is generally better, and explosives actually does alot here. I left despair in for menace because soul tokens and cheap blockers.
Turn 1 relic! This is turning into a pattern. Well, I do like I did before, play slower and out value. I brutality, letting me kill rattle chains and strip blessed alliance. And without said rattle chains I can conflag on my turn easier and ride the value to victory. The relic did some work on me, but I never gave him a good chance to use it. sometimes he was tapped out to avoid removal by flashing in spirits, and I used those windows to dredge.
Game 3 I ended up against no grave hate and sped out some quick damage. I saw the chance to turn 2 Ghast-> amalgam from a turn 1 looting, and with my 2nd looting in hand and despair, I knew early discard probably could wreck him. Indeed it did. I ended up getting him for 3 discard, which was enough to follow the quick end.
2-1 (2-0)
Round 3 vs Grixis Death's Shadow 2-1 WIN (3-0)
My buddy, Ben. Hes young, but a really good Grixis player. Gets he is a tempo player, understands his outs. Anywho, he hates playing me because this matchup is in my favor, we both know it and we go through the motions anyways. least he is fun to talk with.
I lose game 1. I was in the lead, but will be the first to admit I was tired after the last 6 games, as they were grindy as hell, and I had to deal with hate cards almost every game and play metal gymastics. So I didnt leave a narc to block, annnnnddd I lost to a 13/13. whoops.
Game 2 We get our grind on. Hes got no grave hate, but he does manage to apply blockers to protect his life total towards the end. I get despair out, nulling his 3 blockers into a single block, and discard away his counter spells, allowing me to very quickly win with my conflag turn later. As we were shuffling we talked about how rally wouldnt have worked there, and how he might have been able to turn the tides on that attack.
Game 3 wasnt too much of a game. I had the speed just off the backs of loams, and he didnt have early plays. I got there pretty damned fast and followed it up with a conflag for lethal.
2-1 (3-0)
Round 3 VS Skred Red 2-1 WIN (4-0)
I shuffled, lost the roll and he played a turn 1 snow covered mountain. I sighed and went "Skred... really? God damnit..." and then he played relic. God double damn it. I manage to get the relic cracked by turn 3. Then go in HARD on the dredge. I figure (and I still think its correct) that every turn I wait to try and win, the worse it gets for me. He angers. Sad panda.
Honestly, I think us dredge players cant be too salty over skred... We do what they do to us to everyone else. Its our own medicine really.
Game 2, time to over board: 2 pulse, 2 seize, 1 brutality, 2 grudge Out: 1 narc, 1 mom hug, 1 neonate, 2 conflag, 1 loam.
I put out a turn 1 looting and go for the fast "not dredge" start by discarding the ghast and amalgam. Like normal, with relics I expect this to make them pop a relic early, allowing me to dredge on time for turn 2. No relic. So I got a collected brutality off my looting and use it turn 2 to find the anger in his hand, and a bunch of 4 mana/5 mana cards. I see my chance here, and when he puts out a blocker, I despair aggressively to discard 3 cards and get in for damage. Forces him to lose a lot of late game gas and I can win it.
Game 3 we go again, and I dont see a relic (yay!) and get a slower dredge, but I have pulse and brutality. I see on my brutality that he has up to 3 mana and 4 mana walkers. I discarded Despair again because I want to destroy his hand while I have a window to do so, and I manage to really take him back a few turns off it (discarding 3 this time on turn 4) I play a fetch too, and never crack it just in case he draws a relic, which eventually he does, making the timing of the relic always weird. I eventually get to a part where I'm attacking for a crap ton, he skreds my amalgam, In resp I grudge his relic, which he than blows up, which I fetch to save my ghasts, resolves the skred, and I get to save the amalgam. I drop him to 6, he draws a bit off chandra, passes, annnnddddd I draw a conflag, 5 mana open, 6 cards (with conflag) and him at 6 life. So I conflag x=1, then flash back for 5 damage.
Christ, I didn't think dredge could beat skred...
2-1 (4-0)
Overall: sideboard is solid, main board is solid. I dunno if despair is as good as rally, but they seem to be on par at the very least. I miss haunted dead a little and think it would be baller with despair, but brutality is better right now. That I'm sure off. I never played driven, and the few games I had it in hand, I rushed to grave it, because I needed to strip cards. Menace is actually REALLY relivent, much more than I thought. It makes things really ackward. Even makes lingering souls alot worse. Plus its nice to be like "instead of having ghast blocked and killed, as well as my amalgam blocked and killed by angler, I'll make you take 2 and kill the soul token." Snaps are way way worse against us too. Just randomly it makes alot of stall tactics worse.
I thinnnnkkkk when I eventually do get the chance to live the dream and cast both sides, I probably cant lose.
I do wanna talk for a second about win-more despair vs winning despair. After talking to the store guys at first, very openly looking for a despair to use and telling people I was running it, many of the store guys said "Yeah, but rally blow outs" because I have been known to do this. And rally threat of activation is stupidly good in mind traps too. And they arent wrong... rally straight up wins games sometimes. Its a WIN card. And despair screams "Win-more" I mean... look, its a sorcery, so threat of activation is gone, as well as using it at the best time. it doesnt give a team pump, so in theory it isnt pushing damage. It also inst winning the game right there.
BUT, I think reading it and in practice are different. It reads win more, but it actually is pretty much the same thing as winning on the spot. Hear me out. Sometimes, rally doesnt win you the game. It drops them to... I dunno. 5. Then storm, scapeshift, hell even skred untaps and wins. Blocks too hinder rally a lot. Blocking even 2 here shaves off 6 damage, making the chance of winning the game just... non existant. And sure, I could NOT rally then flash back looting or something, but that doesnt stop them from untapping and winning.
Well... this makes blocks harder... and honestly, seems to push damage more than I thought. Less than rally, let me be clear, but it also doesnt suck on a team of 2 dudes when they have out a blocker, like rally does. And honestly... taking 3 or more cards outta someones hand DOES win the game. Doing that to storm, and as I saw with freakin' skred. destroys the chance to untap and win. Against those combo like decks, it just buys us two or more turns, which we will win then, and against fair decks like jund they cant value back from that.
But heres the big thing, it scales really well also... so I dont mind being aggressive as hell with it. If I loot and have an attacking 2-3 dudes on turn 3, I really dont mind casting despair, voiding their chump blocker (and that does include 7/7 shadows mind you) and stripping their options down by 2-3. And two mana means you can do it a lot easier, and a lot cleaner than rally/devil.
Honestly, I think it gives us the boost in the matchups we were bad against and really just seals the deal in the matchups we are good already in. We can still get out aggroed, but it sides out nicely for stuff like gnaw at that point. 2 was too much, because its not that great in your hand (wouldnt mind drawing it turn 5 or something if we are in grind mode, conserve the libary) but one replacing the rally actually seems pretty legit.
Try it out yall. At worst, do 3 weeks of it and tell me how ya feel. costs you .50 cents to 2 dollars.
remember these tips though:
Despair is better in matchups when the opponent has 3-4 or more cards by turn 4. Side it out when they wont. Thats a good benchmark.
Use it aggressively. A lot of the time, its best to do it as soon as you mill it, or surprise discard it. At worst it forces their hand early.
3 dudes seems to be the sweet spot, and around turn 3/4. Its tempting to hold it for massive discard, but its better to limit their options as you might force them to miss land drops or keep land, and miss late game gas.
It can be used in a clogged board just for menace for a final push. I'd prefer the above point honestly because you can use this to get in damage, make them develop their board, then conflag it away, but against souls, this could be the surprise combat advantage you need.
Driven is bad until turn 5 after. If you have it in your hand, probably because you just had better things to do at the times, and you hit turn 5 or later (turn 7?) dont discard it. Thats when casting driven AND despair is correct. Use the extra draws to get loam, sideboard cards or fill your hand for conflag.
When they use removal, or cast things in resp, because you despaired... you basically made them discard it, plus it forces them to do it in ways you can make to your advantage.
Great report Lanter. Thank you. I ended 3rd yesterday in a 40 player tournament here. I play the stack list with Devil and 4 thugs. 5 rounds top8 cut. Endend 5th with a 4-0-1 record (tiebrakers). I won 2-0 against CoCo on round 1. Beat mono red burn 2-1 on round 2. Loose to Merfolk on round 3 at 1-2, a mulligan to 3 in the 3rd game was sad. Naya burn was the 4th round, won 2-1 and the 5th round was against jund scapeshift ended 2-0 at my favour. By standings I faced my jund scapeshift oponent again and won again 2-0. Seize and Brutality are great in the side against this deck. The the semifinals was against a Afinity deck wich had 2 nut draws both games, lost 0-2. Then, the 3rd place match was against again a CoCo player, beat him 2-0.
The stock main list was just like it was before the troll ban replacing with 4 thugs and I was in the Scourge Devil side instead of the rally the peasants. On the side I was using 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Gnaw to the Bone, 2 Lightning Axe, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Abrupt decay, 2 Collective Brutallity, 2 Vengeful Pharao and 3 Thoughtseize. The side worked well enough, as I did not run against a Shadow Deck or a really one big monster beatdown deck I did not side in the Pharaos, they're for the Shadow deck mostly. The bog was either for grixis or mirror and did not run into those. The Axes and the decay usually came in the same matches. Against the Scapeshift I went on full discard plan.
On the side of hate, the white deck I faced was the CoCo decks, with the stock Ooze and RIP 2 of each. Not that hard to break through, specially as they're a combo deck, they don't mull that often as any of their combos finishes us in turn 3-4 before we kill them. Mono red burn did not bring any grave hate, presuming to win faster the damage race, Gnaw to the bone prove them to be wrong. Naya burn brought 1 relic and 2 snaring bridge, Ancient grudge did wonders here. Merfolks brought 2 Relic and well, on game 2 they worked and game 3 was the hard mull to 3 so it was not much of a game...Jund Scapeshift brought 2 Rakdos Charm and Slaughter Games and finally afinity 2 tormods cript.
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Dredge still good enough. Good enough.
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Seems like it will work best in the slower controle style matchups.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
EDIT: Im planning to go with 20 lands and having 1 land on sideboard. Something which can destroy special lands.
I think driven//despair IS a good card, but it might be meta dependent and it might be more of a sideboard card that can be mainboarded. Shooting it off to make them discard 2-3 is the sweet spot it seems, so being aggressive with it is ok.
If anyones got thoughts on this Id love to hear it.
Edit: thinking about it more and more... I think it might have to do with the fact it isnt instant. That makes timing really weird.
Its basically rally, but not rally. It is very strong. You rarely drive, but when you do, you drive for 4-5. I found that you dont often dredge with drive, you look for sideboard cards. Pulse (yea, I started using it.), decay, thoughtseize, brutality, EE stuff like that. You dont get to do that until round turn 4. If you do it prior to that you were likely going to win the game (2 ghasts and a amalgam out on turn 3) but it also seals the game. So thats more or less win more.
Evaluating drive on its own? Id say the card is ALOT less important than I hoped. Overall, youd rather see the card in the yard than out of it, and you never want to see it in the opener.
Moving on to Despair, this card is the real deal. You can play it turn 3 against more ball rolling decks (tron, eldrazi, elves) but its real power is against the decks that dont mind taking time. Control, deaths shadow, jund, junk, hatebears, turns, scapeshift, titan bloom, titan shift. It mops the floor with them. It also gives menace, which might not seem like it, but gives rally/stinkweed numbers of damage... BUT ONLY AGAINST THE SLOW DECKS. its not like rally where its always a race. It just does rally numbers because chump blockers.
Finally, I got to play against storm with it as well as Ad Nauseam. Its the best card Ive ever played against them. If you mill this, and have 3 dudes out... its just over.
Evaluating drive on its own? Its very powerful, and the mode you perfer. It can stop chump blocking, it pushes damage, and destroys hands. It gives the deck a unique edge that it was lacking and "almost" feels like cabal theopy, but only against slower decks.
Overall: I think the card might end up being a little too hit or miss in the long run. I cant make that call right now... I think we as a community need to en masse try it out and see. But the card SHOULD be used aggressively, and earlier than youd think. In a meta of sloweriness, I think this card can replace rally, and probably be better. But in a wide open meta it might be better to use rally. Its also worth noting, some of these we already are likely to win against... so maybe the card isnt even worth playing because its redonant
Based on if you this card in the grave or hand against X deck it will be:
Really good against Somewhat good against. Really bad, you wont use it
Grixis death's shadow
Affinity
Eldrazi Tron
Titanshift
Burn
W/U Control
Dredge (You can trigger this to dredge you will out speed)
Collected company
Storm
Small Pox
Junk
Jund Deaths shadow
Living End
Bant Eldrazi
Humans
Jund
Merfolk
Lantern
Death and taxes
Jeskai
As you can see, my results are all over the place... so like I said, likely meta dependent, sideboard that can be main boarded.
I'll be using one in my sideboard as something to cut rally for depending, and moving 2 collective brutality into my main. Right now that card is very very good. I also am using some amount of pulse or EE. I cant decide which is better. I still dont think going all in on reactive is correct, but veristility is important and there are more leylines than I thought.
I played with 21 for some time and that feels like the sweet spot for me.
Now I changed to 20 and so far I am not having problems with it so I really think it is a matter of personal preference.
I seen people play with 19 lands and they were doing fine. It is all about having two lands in your opening hand and after that just dredge Loam, cast it and play your lands after that.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells
4 Cathartic Reunion
1 Collective Brutality
3 Conflagrate
2 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
1 Rally the Peasants
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
1 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lightning Axe
2 Nature's Claim
1 Golgari Charm
RUGTemur(RUG) Control
UWBRGModern Dredge
RLegacy Burn
Maelstrom Pulse is really nice one on side as well.
grindy games?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16112&d=299286&f=MO
This one is really intresting deck, your thoughts ?
I will be trying out a copy or two as soon as I can get them.
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
Sheltered Thicket, Spicey. I havent had enough practice with the cycle lands. Anyone have more than me wanna say how good it is or not? I am really sticky on my mana base because I wanna not hurt myself, now more than ever.
Ha, seeing that deck made me laugh. Its dredgevine. The thing that existed in modern before dredge took the lime light. I have my own version I used to play alot (credit where credits due, it was pizzap's idea) with death's shadow and Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Its not used anymore "often" because it is less consistent. It takes the same amount of set up time, for less pay off. Aside from that, it also cant sideboard as well as us, which if I remember correctly is the main reason why it dropped off completely.
I even own promo Vines and gravecrawlers. wayfinders were always stupid. Recently at my shop someone played wayfinder in a table next to me and someone was like "Oh. that card seems ok?" And in my head I was like "You have no idea how powerful that card is..."
Thats the future of the deck if they banned something like amalgam. Its tier 3, its a bleak future if thats the future.
Hey man, any time. I pushed the rating a little higher in my head recently, as I thinkkkkk I'm sick? So I took the day off and bored me tested some more. I got to use it ALOT more today against pox, deaths shadow, scapeshift (both kinds) 8 rack, jund, and 4 color control. It wrecked all of them. Against the jund player I even made them discard 5 on turn 4 (ghast, 2 narcs, 1imp, 2 amalgam, 1 block). That was absurd. The guy literally conceded after I reminded him of the discard 5. and then left the match.
It might be a pretty fair replacement to rally after all. But again, rally helps race, this helps make the opponent not win. Sorta similar, better in different situations. I highly suggest everyone pick up at least two copies and run one main, one side for 2 to 3 weeks, and report the testing. It will cost you 1.50... and thats pre release prices. I dont think the price will spike higher than 50 Cents, wouldnt be suprised if this was .25 cents by next week.
Ahh the gold ol' days where the only Dredge was Dredgevine
I had promo Vines and Crawlers too Lantern
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Prized Amalgam
Sorcery 17
3 Cathartic Reunion
2 Collective Brutality
4 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
1 Driven
Land 20
2 Stomping Ground
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Blood Crypt
Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
Instant
2 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Land
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 mom hugs! How dare I? Brutality does the same job, different, but at the same cost. So it makes sense on the curve to consolidate it like so. Right now brutality is really good. so running it in the main is more than correct. I actually found that I like Despair in the rally spots. Its sided out in the same matches too, aggro, but does alot of "damage" to the decks rally would work against AND combo. It also seems like when rally wins the game, despair does it to (be it a full turn later, but you basically time walk them by taking their hand) and where rally doesnt win the game, Despair still does because you stopped them from playing magic, giving you 1-3 more turns of beat down without them recovering.
Moving to the side, this is what I settled on. the numbers are pretty hard crunched at this point. I dont love pulse, but it is a concession to the fact its slightly more versatile, killing delve creatures, tron creatures, better against stuff like elves as well as being an anti hate card. Explosives just sures up some of those gaps. I think running more than 3 destroy anything cards is wrong, because you'll never side in more than 3.
Darkblast replaces dredge, so it makes an easy sub in, letting my life be easier. Same with bog, grudge//gnaw and axe, replacing dakmor, despair//conflag and neonate respectively. Since I got my bases covered with pulse and explosives when I need to be versatile, I should be narrow but powerful when doing the other side cards.
Discard like seize and another brutality rounds the pack, more for big stuff I cant handle. Combo and big mana.
I did a play in testing today I wanted to highlight for you all. Well and brag a bit. But I beat 3 hate cards played against me in rapid fire. He sorta made mistakes here, but I played around and took advantage of them. So to inform I'll do a play by play:
Game 2 vs Junk.
Turn 0: I am on the draw, and mull a hand of 7 that was slow, but ok, and had no ways to deal with hate. I get a 6 of Bloodstained Mire, Mountain, Engineered Explosives, Looting, stinkweed, amalgam and keep it. He mulls, scrys to top and keeps.
Turn 1: He plays a land, pass. I draw loam play looting drawing a neonate and amalgam tossing a stink weed and amalgam. If he does hate, thats fine. I have loam to cast as back up. If he doesnt, I get a fast start.
Turn 2: he plays RiP. I exile my stuff. I draw copperline, and play engineered on 2. I figure, cool, I'll break it, neonate next turn and loam.
Turn 3: He plays spell bomb. Crap. Now I figure, I'll just have to power through it, make him crack it and then refill with loam instead, slow but should work since he is out of gas then. I play neonate and my mire, drawing my ghast and pass. Might as well stop him from playing a goyf on his turn.
Turn 4: He passes. I decide, well... lets see if I can get him to force the spell bomb with ghast instead, that way I can conserve loam. So I dont crack. I draw another neonate (cool. that will help refill) attack for big damage, blow up RiP, use neonate to drop a ghast in my yard. I was going to leave it there in order to force him to use it on his turn, thus making him waste mana. Or even let him mess up and blow it early. Here he misplays. He surgical extracts my ghast. I crack my fetch, he decides to fight it (I later find out he has a leyline in hand, and wants to get to 4 mana) so he cracks the spell bomb. Seems great, seeya yard.
Turn 5: he now has 3 mana, casts a Goyf and passes. I draw reunion (sweet) and neonate my loam first, then reunion, tossing my amalgam and loam for 9, getting a salvage out so I can trigger my ghast and ending my turn with 1 ghast and 3 amalgams.
Turn 6: He plays lingering souls for block duty. Seems great. I dredge imp, and hit a despair. I despair, meaning he can only block 1 of my 4 attackers, attack in and drop him to a single card in hand (discarding 2 removal and another tarmo).
Turn 7: he draws, hits the land, shows me the leyline, and concedes.
I was patting myself on the back there, because I beat 4 hate cards in one game. Despair sealed the deal there and rally/devil wouldnt have worked.
Since i got my dredge deck now on paper, im investing in the end of the month to MTGO dredge. Maybe then i can help you
out with it.
Round 1 Vs Eldrazi Death and Taxes 2-1 WIN (1-0)
Game 1 I saw concealed courtyard, and assumed death and taxes from it. I have a slower, but good start in terms of grind. Game one its generally always OK to grind. He lands Eldrazi displacer after displacer, but I notice he isnt playing any colorless sources. I take advantage of that, knowing I have a window before he can interact with me and use it to race. Eventually it forces him to have to start trading, and I know I've created too much of a value gap and have the overwhelm.
Game 2 In: 1 explosives, 2 pulse, 2 axe (for hate and big dudes) Out: 2 neonate, 1 mom hug, 1 Despair, 1 loam.
I open a pretty grindy hand, but assume I can probably out value him, and face the dreaded turn 1 relic. I play slow and steady, killing off narcs and extra sorceries to the relic. Basically, my go to plan against a relic is lower how good it is by never over playing into it, and using the grave for value instead of an engine. I actually out value the relic really well (fetches are amazing here. I actually put 1 out as a bluff even though I was outta lands to fetch for) by waiting for him to use his mana then going hard in on dredge. but I lose to 3 lingering souls double activation. Hes got the blockers and the attackers to out value me, and I missed the shot to get conflag on line. Activating vault of the arkangel seals the deal.
Game 3 I open a hand of looting, two imps, and a mom hug on the play. I figure his hate is relic, so by looting I can toss my imps and keep them safe by exiling looting. If he has RiP, he is probably dead. He does have the turn 1 relic, and I exile looting. I go off on mom hug getting myself 2 amalgams, 1 ghast, 1 narc. It should me more than enough. If he destroys my yard, I get to face damage him twice. If he tries to use removal I'll gain value out of it. And it ends up just like that. Its too much damage early on, and I conflag him for leathal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 Vs Esper Sprints 2-1 WIN (2-0)
This guy is new to modern. Hes a very cool guy, but getting used to advanced triggers and stacking. I only noticed around 2 play mistakes with him, so hes getting the hang of it pretty well.
Sadly I lose game 1. Hey, it happens, especially if the deck plays off and the opponent has interaction AND a clock. God damn tempo decks, lol. Spirits, for anyone unfamiliar with the deck, is one of those weird decks where you are like "I think I shouldnt be losing... but I am." Flying beats, queller on conflag is aweful, and they can hexproof protect.
In 1 brutality, 2 darkblast, 2 pulse, 1 explosives, 1 gnaw Out: 1 thug, 1 loam, 2 mom hug, 1 ghast, 1 conflag. Conflag generally goes to face here, because queller and hexproof blow outs. Dark blasting to keep up is generally better, and explosives actually does alot here. I left despair in for menace because soul tokens and cheap blockers.
Turn 1 relic! This is turning into a pattern. Well, I do like I did before, play slower and out value. I brutality, letting me kill rattle chains and strip blessed alliance. And without said rattle chains I can conflag on my turn easier and ride the value to victory. The relic did some work on me, but I never gave him a good chance to use it. sometimes he was tapped out to avoid removal by flashing in spirits, and I used those windows to dredge.
Game 3 I ended up against no grave hate and sped out some quick damage. I saw the chance to turn 2 Ghast-> amalgam from a turn 1 looting, and with my 2nd looting in hand and despair, I knew early discard probably could wreck him. Indeed it did. I ended up getting him for 3 discard, which was enough to follow the quick end.
2-1 (2-0)
Round 3 vs Grixis Death's Shadow 2-1 WIN (3-0)
My buddy, Ben. Hes young, but a really good Grixis player. Gets he is a tempo player, understands his outs. Anywho, he hates playing me because this matchup is in my favor, we both know it and we go through the motions anyways. least he is fun to talk with.
I lose game 1. I was in the lead, but will be the first to admit I was tired after the last 6 games, as they were grindy as hell, and I had to deal with hate cards almost every game and play metal gymastics. So I didnt leave a narc to block, annnnnddd I lost to a 13/13. whoops.
In: 1 Bog, 2 pulse, 1 Explosives, 2 axe. Out: 2 neonate, 1 ghast, 2 brutality, 1 dakmor (dont over extend into anger)
Game 2 We get our grind on. Hes got no grave hate, but he does manage to apply blockers to protect his life total towards the end. I get despair out, nulling his 3 blockers into a single block, and discard away his counter spells, allowing me to very quickly win with my conflag turn later. As we were shuffling we talked about how rally wouldnt have worked there, and how he might have been able to turn the tides on that attack.
Game 3 wasnt too much of a game. I had the speed just off the backs of loams, and he didnt have early plays. I got there pretty damned fast and followed it up with a conflag for lethal.
2-1 (3-0)
Round 3 VS Skred Red 2-1 WIN (4-0)
I shuffled, lost the roll and he played a turn 1 snow covered mountain. I sighed and went "Skred... really? God damnit..." and then he played relic. God double damn it. I manage to get the relic cracked by turn 3. Then go in HARD on the dredge. I figure (and I still think its correct) that every turn I wait to try and win, the worse it gets for me. He angers. Sad panda.
Honestly, I think us dredge players cant be too salty over skred... We do what they do to us to everyone else. Its our own medicine really.
Game 2, time to over board: 2 pulse, 2 seize, 1 brutality, 2 grudge Out: 1 narc, 1 mom hug, 1 neonate, 2 conflag, 1 loam.
I put out a turn 1 looting and go for the fast "not dredge" start by discarding the ghast and amalgam. Like normal, with relics I expect this to make them pop a relic early, allowing me to dredge on time for turn 2. No relic. So I got a collected brutality off my looting and use it turn 2 to find the anger in his hand, and a bunch of 4 mana/5 mana cards. I see my chance here, and when he puts out a blocker, I despair aggressively to discard 3 cards and get in for damage. Forces him to lose a lot of late game gas and I can win it.
Game 3 we go again, and I dont see a relic (yay!) and get a slower dredge, but I have pulse and brutality. I see on my brutality that he has up to 3 mana and 4 mana walkers. I discarded Despair again because I want to destroy his hand while I have a window to do so, and I manage to really take him back a few turns off it (discarding 3 this time on turn 4) I play a fetch too, and never crack it just in case he draws a relic, which eventually he does, making the timing of the relic always weird. I eventually get to a part where I'm attacking for a crap ton, he skreds my amalgam, In resp I grudge his relic, which he than blows up, which I fetch to save my ghasts, resolves the skred, and I get to save the amalgam. I drop him to 6, he draws a bit off chandra, passes, annnnddddd I draw a conflag, 5 mana open, 6 cards (with conflag) and him at 6 life. So I conflag x=1, then flash back for 5 damage.
Christ, I didn't think dredge could beat skred...
2-1 (4-0)
Overall: sideboard is solid, main board is solid. I dunno if despair is as good as rally, but they seem to be on par at the very least. I miss haunted dead a little and think it would be baller with despair, but brutality is better right now. That I'm sure off. I never played driven, and the few games I had it in hand, I rushed to grave it, because I needed to strip cards. Menace is actually REALLY relivent, much more than I thought. It makes things really ackward. Even makes lingering souls alot worse. Plus its nice to be like "instead of having ghast blocked and killed, as well as my amalgam blocked and killed by angler, I'll make you take 2 and kill the soul token." Snaps are way way worse against us too. Just randomly it makes alot of stall tactics worse.
I thinnnnkkkk when I eventually do get the chance to live the dream and cast both sides, I probably cant lose.
I do wanna talk for a second about win-more despair vs winning despair. After talking to the store guys at first, very openly looking for a despair to use and telling people I was running it, many of the store guys said "Yeah, but rally blow outs" because I have been known to do this. And rally threat of activation is stupidly good in mind traps too. And they arent wrong... rally straight up wins games sometimes. Its a WIN card. And despair screams "Win-more" I mean... look, its a sorcery, so threat of activation is gone, as well as using it at the best time. it doesnt give a team pump, so in theory it isnt pushing damage. It also inst winning the game right there.
BUT, I think reading it and in practice are different. It reads win more, but it actually is pretty much the same thing as winning on the spot. Hear me out. Sometimes, rally doesnt win you the game. It drops them to... I dunno. 5. Then storm, scapeshift, hell even skred untaps and wins. Blocks too hinder rally a lot. Blocking even 2 here shaves off 6 damage, making the chance of winning the game just... non existant. And sure, I could NOT rally then flash back looting or something, but that doesnt stop them from untapping and winning.
Well... this makes blocks harder... and honestly, seems to push damage more than I thought. Less than rally, let me be clear, but it also doesnt suck on a team of 2 dudes when they have out a blocker, like rally does. And honestly... taking 3 or more cards outta someones hand DOES win the game. Doing that to storm, and as I saw with freakin' skred. destroys the chance to untap and win. Against those combo like decks, it just buys us two or more turns, which we will win then, and against fair decks like jund they cant value back from that.
But heres the big thing, it scales really well also... so I dont mind being aggressive as hell with it. If I loot and have an attacking 2-3 dudes on turn 3, I really dont mind casting despair, voiding their chump blocker (and that does include 7/7 shadows mind you) and stripping their options down by 2-3. And two mana means you can do it a lot easier, and a lot cleaner than rally/devil.
Honestly, I think it gives us the boost in the matchups we were bad against and really just seals the deal in the matchups we are good already in. We can still get out aggroed, but it sides out nicely for stuff like gnaw at that point. 2 was too much, because its not that great in your hand (wouldnt mind drawing it turn 5 or something if we are in grind mode, conserve the libary) but one replacing the rally actually seems pretty legit.
Try it out yall. At worst, do 3 weeks of it and tell me how ya feel. costs you .50 cents to 2 dollars.
remember these tips though:
On the side of hate, the white deck I faced was the CoCo decks, with the stock Ooze and RIP 2 of each. Not that hard to break through, specially as they're a combo deck, they don't mull that often as any of their combos finishes us in turn 3-4 before we kill them. Mono red burn did not bring any grave hate, presuming to win faster the damage race, Gnaw to the bone prove them to be wrong. Naya burn brought 1 relic and 2 snaring bridge, Ancient grudge did wonders here. Merfolks brought 2 Relic and well, on game 2 they worked and game 3 was the hard mull to 3 so it was not much of a game...Jund Scapeshift brought 2 Rakdos Charm and Slaughter Games and finally afinity 2 tormods cript.